Terrible Aggression - at my wit's end, please help!

[1sheepdoggal]

I will say it again, if one of MY DOGS (not some random dog) does something bad, all i have to use is a look, a verbal command, and maybe the point of a finger, I may take a few steps towards the dog, and that offending dog will roll over in submission. They know what is acceptable and what is not, and they know how to submitt to the dominant leader: me. There is nothing sad about that. You don't know me or my dogs, how dare you say it isn't so.

 

Yes, that is the very thing that is very sad in the way you aparently and proudly handle and train your dogs. Why may I ask, do you want your dogs to roll over in submission?

[JBlaylock]

Because it is the natural way their instinct prompts them to respond to a situation where they stepped out of place and got put back into it by the dominant leader. It is what nature wants. If you want to humanize your dogs, fight nature, and turn them into a circus act, go ahead, I haven't said that you shouldn't, so why are you saying I shouldn't choose the most natural and instinctive way to make my dogs happy and obedient?

 

Why do you care? Why is it sad?

 

My dogs are extreemly happy. Extreemly healthy. Extreemly well behaved and friendly. They don't offend often enough to spend much time on their backs in a submissive roll, but when it happens rarely, they don't hesitate to submit. Why are you such a protagonist?

[Journey]

Not any more, I put in the time, energy, and hard effort to provide what they needed to become happy, healthy, submissive, friendly dogs. I am not sure if you posted that as a way to try and bash me or if you posted it to support me...a bit confusing, but the later would be the more accurate result of your post.

 

Good for you, glad that everything worked out. Now, I have to ask, "how"? In the sheepdog world and in regular dog worlds, if I saw a dog roll over in submission I would assume "that dogs been beat". I don't want a "submissive dog" I want a team player and partner, one with a relationship built on trust and understanding that also allows the dog to "think" and not react in fear (which is what a submissive roll and peeing dog is ime). I had to laugh though at your "wagging finger" comment.....I have a bitch here that would take one look at that and snap at it Yep, a very dominant bitch and not much submissiveness about her, works her a$$ off though and doesn't cause problems anywhere in daily life.

[BorderCollieSam]

Those are two of my personal three. I didn't say they are vicious, I said they were dominant agressive dogs. Not any more, I put in the time, energy, and hard effort to provide what they needed to become happy, healthy, submissive, friendly dogs. I am not sure if you posted that as a way to try and bash me or if you posted it to support me...a bit confusing, but the later would be the more accurate result of your post.

 

I meant they looked very 'angry' in that photo like something out of a horror movie, and i assume they are a lot better now, so obviously something has given.

 

Although i must be honest, you wouldn't catch me trying to dominate a dog like that, i would be the one turning over in the submissive pose..........

[BorderCollieSam]

Gee, do they pee themselves too? Or is that a dominance issue too?

 

Sorry, but that just cracked me up , these forums are something else they really are!

[1sheepdoggal]

Because it is the natural way their instinct prompts them to respond to a situation where they stepped out of place and got put back into it by the dominant leader. It is what nature wants. If you want to humanize your dogs, fight nature, and turn them into a circus act, go ahead, I haven't said that you shouldn't, so why are you saying I shouldn't chose the most natural and instinctive way to make my dogs happy and obedient?

 

Why do you care? Why is it sad?

 

My dogs are extreemly happy. Extreemly healthy. Extreemly well behaved and friendly. They don't offend often enough to spend much time on their backs in a submissive roll, but when it happens rarely, they don't hesitate to submit. Why are you such a protagonist?

 

Your doing a pretty smart job of digging yourself a pretty deep hole, I think any thing Id have to say to you at this point would be wasted energy, and I really hope anyone reading your posts doesnt take you seriously. You have A LOT to learn.

Away Me.

[Lenajo]

[Would you mind naming the behaviorists that you are referring to?

 

 

I'd also like to know what your defination of "extreme aggression" is? You said you'd rehabbed 3 dogs from this - can you please tell us about the dogs situation before you took them? I don't expect names on a public forum, but I would like to know 1. age, sex at time you took them, 2. history of the aggresion. How many bites, under what circumstances, and what level bite (from Ian Dunbar's scale). Start a new thread if you'd like to keep this clear.

 

Thanks

[JBlaylock]

I meant they looked very 'angry' in that photo like something out of a horror movie, and i assume they are a lot better now, so obviously something has given.

 

Although i must be honest, you wouldn't catch me trying to dominate a dog like that, i would be the one turning over in the submissive pose..........

 

They aren't angry at all in those photos. They are running circles in the backyard together. Tinkerbell is half border collie and was trying to catch up and nip at Bindie's heels, which I have no problem with because they both play that way, and niether get's hurt or upset by it. However, Tinkerbell is much slower than Bindy, so she was frantically trying to catch up, and her being half lab gives her loose skin around the face, which pulls back from the g-forces making her mouth look even more open. Nothing angry there, just happy playful times.

[jdarling]

Away Me.

 

LMFAO!!!!

[JohnLloydJones]

If one of my dogs does something bad, I just look at it and say "ahht! shhhh!" it the offending dog rolls over in submission without me even touching. This came from the training that did require physical contact at first.

I have never physically forced a dog into the "alpha-roll" position. In fact, unless a dog is seriously out of control, I use little or no physical coercion. Senneca will roll in submission in response to my body language. I think this is where the whole alpha-roll misunderstanding comes from. The technique appears to work for some people, because they -- consciously or unconsciously -- are able to use their eyes and body language to trigger submissive behaviour. Those who watch see the action, but miss the subtle signals, see a totally wrong picture. The exchange of signals between the "alpha" and the submissive are over in a flash of a second. It is instinctive and not a conscious process.

[Eileen Stein]

You might also argue that there are people out there who do not think a simple fracture is even worth treating, if we are worried primarily about "what people think" as our criterion for identifying emergencies.

 

Anyway, I am not interested in majority opinions -- I am interested in logical consistency. I'm a scientist, you're a lawyer -- maybe that's the rub?

 

No, Melanie, I don't think because you're a scientist you are interested in logical consistency, and because I'm a lawyer I'm not interested in logical consistency.

 

I guess I've just lost the thread. You said that if the OP and her husband didn't have $200-$300 on hand for veterinary emergencies, then they don't have enough to care for a dog (I guess you intended to be helpful, but I'm not sure what the implications are -- if your funds are running low does that mean you're supposed to get rid of your dog?), and that they'd find the money if the dog needed treatment for a broken leg. I gave some reasons why the husband might see the veterinary behaviorist route here as different from vet care in a sudden, acute, essential, curable situation. I was focusing on "what people think" because to me the key here is what the husband thinks. The OP has made it clear -- upfront and honestly -- that she cannot spend this money in this way without his agreement:

 

>

 

I guess I just don't see how whether you call it an emergency or not changes this. Or how much money you ought to have to be entitled to own a dog changes this. Or really how putting any pressure on this woman changes this.

 

This discussion has gone far beyond the OP and her problem, but the immediate issue is that none of the options that the OP is willing to consider are actually going to address the problem, much less have any chance of fixing it, which is why she is getting the responses she is getting.

 

Well, I actually don't agree with this, although I haven't posted a response because given that I haven't seen the dog I don't think my opinion should carry much weight. But I think taking the dog to the friend's father might well work out fine, based on the OP's description of the dog's behavior, the friend's father's history with dogs, the remoteness of the location, and her commitment to transfer the dog gradually and keep tabs on how things are working out and retrieve the dog at any sign of problems. I don't share any feeling that roaming free in the state of nature is this dog's destiny, but I do think that the life the OP describes may well have fewer stressors for this dog. I recall a thread last fall quite similar to this one, started by Flamincomet, I believe, who wanted to place a dog that had bitten her and that she didn't feel competent to handle. Against a lot of advice like this, she did place the dog with someone more experienced, with full disclosure, and last we heard (in January, I think) the dog was doing well in its new home with most of its problems worked through. I know of other dogs with behavior issues including biting who have been placed successfully. So I just would not be comfortable stating dogmatically that nothing will work here except the behaviorist route or euthanasia. Especially about a dog I haven't seen.

 

 

>

 

Well, no, it's not.

 

Well, this is what she wrote:

 

>

To me, "I do not value my dog the same way that I would value a child" is implicit in what she is saying. But I guess you want to force her to make that statement outright, for some reason?

 

There is a BIG difference between "I won't" and "I can't." It really gets me when people claim that they "can't" when actually, they "won't." That is essentially what Jon Katz did when he made his argument for killing Orson.

 

The problem I have with Jon Katz (along with the exploitation and the claims to expertise, of course) is that he said he couldn't when he obviously COULD. He was the sole decision-maker, he lived alone on a large property, he had plenty of money. What he wrote reeked with intellectual dishonesty. I don't see that here at all.

[stockdogranch]

...if I saw a dog roll over in submission I would assume "that dogs been beat".

I agree, although the "beating" may truly be physical or "just" emotional/mental,

 

As for the rest of this, ya'll keep up the good fight. At the moment, I simply don't have the energy to argue with fools,

(insert head-banging emoticon here)

A

[Ooky]

JBlaylock, does every problem you see present as dominance to you? Just curious...

 

I was just reading this thread and thinking that when all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail...

 

to the OP if you are still reading- my heart goes out to you but I have to agree with many others. Rather than banishing this confused dog to an outside life, it seems to me euthanasia would be kinder and more responsible if your husband truly will not try to help the dog any further. Wish you the best --

[mbc1963]

I've mostly read this thread without a lot of input, because I simply don't have experience with really aggressive dogs (mine's merely reactive, which was much simpler to deal with).

 

But I do have a lot of empathy for Pansmom and her situation. Having a baby is an incredible stressor, and trying to keep a baby safe from an aggressive dog (and an aggressive dog safe from his own behavior) sounds like a very difficult situation. Whatever the OP decides to do, I give her credit for having worked as hard as she has with her dog, and I think she should be able to sleep peacefully at night with whatever choice she makes. I feel fortunate that with my dog, I was never forced into this kind of a decision.

 

Mary

[Freeman 101]

...are you serious? They are everywhere dude.

 

There are a great number more trainers I've met who have submissive obidient dogs using the "old and outdated" methods than there are sucessfull trainers I've met with submissive and obidient dogs using positive words and looks with no physical correction. Most people I've met who try these methods and claim their dogs are obidient end up embarrassing themselves as they try to prove it and the dog doesn't respond to something as simple as a recall, if there's even the slightest distraction there. Most people I've met who use the old methods have a dog who doesn't even need a leash outside, with children, squirels, birds, cars, etc running/rolling/flying by - extreemly obidient dogs. I'm not saying the other way doesn't work, just that I've never met a single trainer with a truly submissive or obedient dog who uses those methods, and I personaly know hundreds with great dogs who use the old and "outdated" way.

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Actually I'm not a dude but a mother of 3 adult sons. I really think calling someone that is not your peer "dude" is quite rude.

 

And, yes, I am serious. You are making a lot of claims. You stated that 90% of trainers don't know what they are doing. Back this up with proof. Where did the 90% come from?

You've made the statement that your methods are not actually yours but the methods of trainers, behaviorists, and biologists. I think it is only fair and reasonabe to ask for names. So, yes, who are you referring to? Trust me, it won't be over my head so throw some names around.

 

It doesn't bother me that you are trying to support your method of training. I've seen fabulous trainers on both ends of the spectrum, so I suspect you have not witnessed a lot of trainers since you have such a 1-sided view.

 

I also am curious as to what level of training your own dogs have? Or do you only limit your training to making your dogs "submit". I happen to think there is a difference in teaching dogs to reliably respond to requests versus teaching dogs to submit. I think that teaching dogs to respond reliably to requests is a higher level of training.

[mbc1963]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Actually I'm not a dude but a mother of 3 adult sons. I really think calling someone that is not your peer "dude" is quite rude.

 

LOL! I was having a long IM conversation with a young guy once, and trying to explain how calling me (a 39 year old female at the time) "Dude" was really not appropriate. He kept arguing with me that it was totally acceptable - but all he proved to me was that he was too young to have lived outside a very narrow social sphere.

 

As we often say in teaching teenagers, "They don't know what they don't know." I think young people have the capability to believe they're absolutely right about something in a way older folks can't believe any longer, because life has smacked them down one too many times.

 

So, young guys, write this down for future reference when you take jobs and have bosses who are considerably older than you... "Dude" isn't going to win you any promotions. Especially if your boss is a female!

 

Mary

[Lenajo]

Bumping my question down to visible again. Jblaylock please answer, it would help a lot to understand you point of view.

 

I'd also like to know what your defination of "extreme aggression" is? You said you'd rehabbed 3 dogs from this - can you please tell us about the dogs situation before you took them? I don't expect names on a public forum, but I would like to know 1. age, sex at time you took them, 2. history of the aggresion. How many bites, under what circumstances, and what level bite (from Ian Dunbar's scale). quote]

[Freeman 101]

Technically speaking, "dude" is defined as the hair on an elaphant's butt, which is how I am beginning to view the opinions of some here. So, it was totally appropriate.

And what do you do for a living? I own my own business, I am my own boss, and I have enough people skills and common sense to make my business successful enough that I can afford to - and do - own my own house: so, save your lectures on success in the business world for someone else, dude...

 

----------------------------------------------

I also own my own business, specifically a dog training business and have for over a decade. So is your business a dog training business? You were not specific. I'm just not sure how owning a business and a home gives you validity unless you have made a name for yourself professionally in a dog training business?

 

I do take issue as a trainer when someone states 90% of trainers don't know what they are tallking about.

If you are going to make a statement like this, than back this statement up with facts.

What is sad is that you are clueless as to how rude you are. Also, you are representing yourself as an expert but are unwilling, even defensive, about giving us information as to why we should consider you a professional. My issue with you is not your "methods" but instead your very unprofessional behavior.

 

Actually, since you admire Cesar so much then ask yourself if Cesar would behave the way you are behaving?

I recently seen a Cesar interview where a reporter questioned Cesar about all the criticism that he receives regarding his methods. He responded that there is more than 1 way to train dogs and that he respected this. Although I've never been a Cesar fan, I thought his response was very classy.

[JBlaylock]

Technically speaking, "dude" is defined as the hair on an elaphant's butt, which is how I am beginning to view the opinions of some here. So, it was totally appropriate.

And what do you do for a living? I own my own business, I am my own boss, and I have enough people skills and common sense to make my business successful enough that I can afford to - and do - own my own house: so, save your lectures on success in the business world for someone else, dude...

 

----------------------------------------------

I also own my own business, specifically a dog training business and have for over a decade. So is your business a dog training business? You were not specific. I'm just not sure how owning a business and a home gives you validity unless you have made a name for yourself professionally in a dog training business?

 

I do take issue as a trainer when someone states 90% of trainers don't know what they are tallking about.

If you are going to make a statement like this, than back this statement up with facts.

What is sad is that you are clueless as to how rude you are. Also, you are representing yourself as an expert but are unwilling, even defensive, about giving us information as to why we should consider you a professional. My issue with you is not your "methods" but instead your very unprofessional behavior.

 

Actually, since you admire Cesar so much then ask yourself if Cesar would behave the way you are behaving?

I recently seen a Cesar interview where a reporter questioned Cesar about all the criticism that he receives regarding his methods. He responded that there is more than 1 way to train dogs and that he respected this. Although I've never been a Cesar fan, I thought his response was very classy.

 

 

My business is a photography/videography business, I did not imply it was training dogs. I brought it up as a response to someone's comment that if I want to succeed in a business world where an older female will be my boss, I beter learn how to talk. If someone else veers off topic with an irelevant stament, I'll answer it with one relevant to their statement, even if it's irelevant to the topic.

 

As for you bringing up Cesar M's interview. ...? Again, perhaps you need to go re-read this thread more carefuly, I have stated numerous times that I am not saying my method is the only method, and that other methods work just fine. I have only stated that the people here need to quit saying my method can't possibly work, just because they haven't been able to make it work.

[kaos]

Why has this become an anti female thing? I find it strange that gender is entering into this argument. It seems to be a default when the arguer no longer has any reasonable ground to stand on. People are not concerned because a male is giving dangerous advice, they are concerned because a poster has given dangerous advice. To resort to misogyny simply reflects poorly on the prejudicial party.

 

Sara

[bcnewe2]

I have only stated that the people here need to quit saying my method can't possibly work, just because they haven't been able to make it work.

 

I don't think people are totally disagreeing with what you've suggested, maybe some are. It....might.... work but if used in the wrong hands could really cause some damage. What we are suggesting are things that the OP could possilby do and not get hurt in the process. Remember she is not dog savvy, this is her first dog, and a bit of a dangerous one already.

 

Truly my last word on this subject....for now!

[pansmom]

OK, I am staying with a friend in another state and do not have time to read all the responses to this thread yet (although I will when I get home).

 

This is what has happened the first few days I was gone: my husband and I started acclimatizing Pan to being outside, over last weekend, and she was very happy generally speaking for a couple of days what with all the walking and playing we were giving her. However, after sleeping outside for a couple of days, she basically kind of went wild and got really depressed and stopped eating her food. (Examples of wild behavior: she growled at my husband when he let her indoors once; another time, she didn't eat her food after 8 hours outside with it, my husband picked up the food, and she rushed at him snarling from the other side of the yard and bit his shoe. Note: she is never alone for eight hours when I am at home, but over the spring break holiday my husband is working full-time to try to make us some extra money so we can catch up on the bills, and he can't come home for lunch, so there was no other alternative. And also note, I planned this trip before Pan deteriorated as much as she had--I wouldn't have bought the bus ticket to go visit my friend if I'd have known.)

 

Anyway, because of her terrible behavior outside, we have decided she cannot go to live on the farm. She obviously needs the discipline and training only we can give her, and that is what is keeping her from being a completely feral/defense(?) or fear(?) aggressive dog. So for the past couple of days she has been staying outside during the day and hanging out at night with my husband in the back room while he works on his thesis and then sleeping in the kitchen. (He can't bathe her, only I can, because she responds better to my sweet talk than his... so she can't sleep in the bedroom with us until I get home. Hopefully she will let me bathe her when I come back because I bet she's pretty dirty and possibly even has fleas even though she's on the prescription neck-applied flea meds--can't remember the brand name at the moment.) For fun every night he is either walking her or taking her for car rides, both of which she loves. Also he bought some new treats and is doing short training sessions so she feels like she is working some too. (He can't bike her, because she will basically sit down and refuse to go with him or bite the leash constantly...) The good news is, he says she seems happy to go outside every morning and happy to see him and come inside every night, and when she comes inside she goes and sleeps in the place by my desk where I trained her to sleep, so she seems calm and happy spending half her time outside. (I think she was depressed and nervous as hell that she had been ousted from her family being outside all the time, so she seems happy now knowing that she still gets to sleep inside and be with us.)

 

When I get home, since the only other option is PTS, my husband has acquiesced to let me take her to get a blood test. I'm about to go back and look at the first five pages of this discussion to find the name of the lab that will look for additional things other than complete chemistry panel and thyroids (those two tests are only $55 through a local lab, I called my vet, but I want to make sure we check for everything possible, especially since she was a super sweet puppy and this all began right before she went into heat the first time--note: see an earlier post, we were late getting her fixed because she went into heat early, but she was fixed as soon as safe after she went out of heat). When I talked to the vet, he seemed to think this was just her temperament and suggested a local trainer that is experienced with working with aggressive dogs, but I know the trainer and know they use some pain associated-methods (like german made spoke collars) so I don't think that's right for her (since she is fear or defense aggressive). But the vet said he didn't mind working with me on using another lab that will look for more stuff, so that's the plan.

 

Thanks everyone for all your input, will report back after I get home and have time to read this whole ten page thread in its entirety.

[Lenajo]

my husband picked up the food, and she rushed at him snarling from the other side of the yard and bit his shoe

 

Wow. Just Wow. And not a good wow either. I'm glad you decided against the home in the country.

[bcnewe2]

this all began right before she went into heat the first time--note: see an earlier post, we were late getting her fixed because she went into heat early, but she was fixed as soon as safe after she went out of heat).

 

Makes me think that there might be a hormone imbalance that wasn't taken care of with the spaying.

Just a thought.

Opps...wasn't going to post but just thinking....

[RoseAmy]

Wow! What a thread.

 

First off let me say that everyone's interpetation of things may be different, so without seeing your dog and its behavior it's really hard to tell someone what or how to do it. Something like this needs to been seen in person.

 

That said: I have a trial bitch that was with masses of other dogs all her life. At the age of 4 she became VERY dog aggressive (was fine with people). Trials were a nightmare.. even on lead I had to keep her head "hogged tied" to me least she try to attack another dog. Oh yes I got after her hard for it. Made no difference in fact only make it worse. Had her spayed and the change in her was unbelieveable..she was back to her old friendly dog self..

 

I would sure look into this being hormone related,