Terrible Aggression - at my wit's end, please help!

[Alaska]

I really need to go to bed, but there is so much in Pansmom's latest post that I want to respond to. (And after I got all done typing the following missive, the Board Monster told me I'd exceeded the limit for number of quotes in one post, which is surely a record for me, so I had to break it into two posts.)

 

First, the question about progesterone therapy in your previous post seemed like a good one, but you are more likely to get responses from some of the more knowledgeable board members if you post it separately in the Health and Genetics section with a subject line like "Progesterone therapy after spay?" Thirteen page threads in the general discussion section often get skipped over by those sorts of folks

 

Onward.

 

Everyone - bad news -

I am not seeing the rest of your post as necessarily bad news. I'm not a behaviorist, and I wasn't there, but from what you describe, I'm getting a different read than your interpretation. If at all possible, you should really try to get a video of one of these incidents, as it will be enormously helpful for anyone who does try to help you. A trained eye will want to see what the dog is doing before and during the incident, but it's also important for them to see what the humans and other nearby creatures are doing.

 

this morning I was telling Pan to "be a good dog" as usual before I went to work and petting her snout as I've been doing more often lately, and she showed her teeth at me.

Does she like to have her snout petted? That is something that many dogs do not especially like. From what you wrote, a reasonable interpretation would be that Pan didn't like it either, at least not this morning. Bear in mind that dogs don't always like exactly the same thing all the time, no more than we do. Sometimes a gentle touch feels nice, and sometimes we just want to be left alone.

 

As I think you know, "showing teeth" is a dog's way of saying, "Please stop. I don't like what you're doing." You may label it "aggression", but for a dog it is a perfectly normal and relatively polite way of asking you to stop. Aggression would be if she attacked without warning (which I think you've described her doing in other situations). Here she appears to be simply using dog language to make a request of you.

 

I didn't know how to handle the situation, so the first time she showed her teeth I ignored it, then she made a low growl noise

If it were my dog (and again, I wasn't there, and I don't really know what each of you did or didn't do), the first thing I would have done would have been to show the dog that I "heard" and understood the request. At a minimum, I would have stopped petting and just held my hand motionless.

 

The growl seems to have been her second attempt to use what is again normal dog language for "Please stop that." To me, this is further good news. First she tried one way to communicate with you, and when that didn't work she switched to another, just the same as you or I might try when faced with a similar situation.

 

and I took my petting hand away (still leaving my other hand around her snout)

It's not clear to me why you would leave a hand around her snout, especially if she was indeed asking you to leave her snout alone. When a dog sends clear signals in the language they know best, and the signals are ignored, that's the kind of thing that can lead them to escalate. Personally, I find life much more harmonious to just grant the dog's request (as long as it's reasonable, which in this case it seems like it was).

 

But again, this is where a video would help. Before you said you were "petting her snout" and here you say you removed the petting hand but left the other hand around her snout. I'm not criticizing your storytelling abilities , just pointing out that as hard as you try to describe what happened, it's still fairly easy for someone reading the description to get an incorrect picture of what actually happened. So, video if you can.

 

, and said "No ma'am."

Again, not the response I would have given. "No ma'am" means she did something wrong, right? But all she did was say "I don't like that." Why "correct" her for that?

 

But then as I continued my usual routine it became very clear with a slow calm experimentation that she DID NOT WANT ME petting her

There you go! Listening to the dog! Now you're really going to make some progress.

 

(this started just as a quick pat on the head, what I usually do before I go).

Was it a quick pat on the head, or "petting the snout", or petting with one hand while holding the other hand around the snout? To a dog, these are very different things. Maybe your "usual" routine isn't as consistent as you think?

 

I was sitting down low beside her, which I don't always do, so maybe that was it. And maybe she was still weirded out from her vet appointment yesterday where they drew blood (???? I put her muzzle on her and had to hold her down and sweet talk her while they drew the blood so maybe she trusted me less this morning?)

No comment on sitting down low, but IMHO she could definitely still be trying to reestablish (in her mind) what your relationship is to her after yesterday. Dogs are incredibly keen observers, and she can't have failed to notice that you "acted strangely" toward her yesterday. Essentially, you became less predictable, so it could take a while for her to decide that you've become your old predictable self again.

 

And maybe I screwed up by continuing to pet, ignoring her teeth-showing, but the way this situation ended is me standing up, letting go of her snout, and her snarling something awful. As soon as I got away though her tail was A WAGGING. She just wanted me away from her.

The snarling doesn't seem surprising. She appears to have tried several different ways to ask you to give her some space, and you either ignored or misunderstood them all (in her mind). "Aarrgghh! Finally!" would be one way to interpret the snarling. But then, having got that out of her system and being a good natured sort, Miss Pan wagged to show she wasn't one to hold a grudge. No wonder you love this dog!

 

Looking back on it now, I wish I had made her go into a down stay at the end of this, or put her away in a room, something to punish her (mildly) for her actions to show her that aggression does NOT give you what you want.

I'm quite sure I'm beating a dead horse by now, so I'll stop shortly, but IMHO, from the way you told the story, I would not call any of this aggression, so your point is moot (again, IMHO).

[Alaska]

Now as for the cat incident, that seems to me a case of Pan trying to lay down rules for other members of the family. If, in fact, that's what she was doing, then I agree that it was inappropriate behavior.

 

A really, really great way to eliminate that sort of behavior is to have the dog learn that it always produces the opposite effect of what the dog intended. You do not need to say "NO" or apply any punishment at all. You just leap up brightly as soon as you see the dog starting to think about giving the cat the evil eye, long before the growl even emerges (if you can catch it that early), and cheerfully say, "Oh, you want to go out? Thanks for asking!" And then you happily escort the dog to the hall and close the door behind her. It all happens so fast and so happily that the dog just stands there trying to figure out what she did that caused you to escort her out of the room. But dogs are quick learners, and if you can be consistent, and catch the very first signal that the dog is thinking about making a new house rule, pretty soon they learn that dogs making house rules is counterproductive and turn their attention to something else. This is way less stressful for everyone, because you're happy from start to finish, and because you interrupt the behavior chain long before the growling even starts, but of course you do need to learn to see those early signs.

 

Luckily, from everything you've said (recently), your wonderful dog is a very good communicator and you should be able to master that skill with her patient help

 

One last time, I wasn't there, and maybe none of the interpretation I've offered is correct, so feel free to disregard any of it. But learning to understand dog body language and respond appropriately was a major, major eye opener for me, so I've tried to share some of that with you. I hope you find it useful, because...

 

COME ON EASY ANSWERS IN BLOODWORK.

...even if the bloodwork turns up something that can be treated medically, ya still gotta know how to read your dog! But when you get it right, it's the best feeling in the world.

[Caroline Reichard]

I am not seeing the rest of your post as necessarily bad news.

 

Does she like to have her snout petted? That is something that many dogs do not especially like. From what you wrote, a reasonable interpretation would be that Pan didn't like it either, at least not this morning.

 

As I think you know, "showing teeth" is a dog's way of saying, "Please stop. I don't like what you're doing." You may label it "aggression", but for a dog it is a perfectly normal and relatively polite way of asking you to stop. Aggression would be if she attacked without warning (which I think you've described her doing in other situations). Here she appears to be simply using dog language to make a request of you.

 

The growl seems to have been her second attempt to use what is again normal dog language for "Please stop that." To me, this is further good news. First she tried one way to communicate with you, and when that didn't work she switched to another, just the same as you or I might try when faced with a similar situation.

 

Again, not the response I would have given. "No ma'am" means she did something wrong, right? But all she did was say "I don't like that." Why "correct" her for that?

 

There you go! Listening to the dog! Now you're really going to make some progress.

 

The snarling doesn't seem surprising. She appears to have tried several different ways to ask you to give her some space, and you either ignored or misunderstood them all (in her mind). "Aarrgghh! Finally!" would be one way to interpret the snarling. But then, having got that out of her system and being a good natured sort, Miss Pan wagged to show she wasn't one to hold a grudge. No wonder you love this dog!

 

I had not contributed to this thread, though I read it with great interest, but this post just stunned me. I know that I have just cherry picked your suggestions, Alaska, but do you really mean to tell Pansmom that growling, snarling, and biting are "good news" and "normal communication" between dogs and their owners? In my home, it would be VERY BAD if one of my dog snarled at me. Giving into the dog's "reasonable request" would not be my response, nor would I think that I was "making progress" if I acceded to its desire. It seems to me that the the normal dog/human relationship is being turned upside down here and that if Pansmom were to take up this approach that in two weeks the cat would be dead and Pansmom and her husband would be sleeping on the floor while the dog lay on the bed eating the tuna fish.

 

I am not a behaviorist but have owned working dogs for nearly 20 years. I am also not Mr. Blaylock and agree that manhandling the dog into submission is not a good idea. But I do think that it is possible to have a common sense relationship with a dog in which a dog would not dare to snarl at, growl, or bite you. Some dogs, for whatever reason, aren't capable of that. These dogs need to be managed to keep people safe from them, and there are various more or less drastic ways to do that. But IMO it is simply bad when dogs do this stuff, and I beleive that to think otherwise would be to invite disaster.

[pansmom]

I had not contributed to this thread, though I read it with great interest, but this post just stunned me. I know that I have just cherry picked your suggestions, Alaska, but do you really mean to tell Pansmom that growling, snarling, and biting are "good news" and "normal communication" between dogs and their owners? In my home, it would be VERY BAD if one of my dog snarled at me. Giving into the dog's "reasonable request" would not be my response, nor would I think that I was "making progress" if I acceded to its desire. It seems to me that the the normal dog/human relationship is being turned upside down here and that if Pansmom were to take up this approach that in two weeks the cat would be dead and Pansmom and her husband would be sleeping on the floor while the dog lay on the bed eating the tuna fish.

 

I am not a behaviorist but have owned working dogs for nearly 20 years. I am also not Mr. Blaylock and agree that manhandling the dog into submission is not a good idea. But I do think that it is possible to have a common sense relationship with a dog in which a dog would not dare to snarl at, growl, or bite you. Some dogs, for whatever reason, aren't capable of that. These dogs need to be managed to keep people safe from them, and there are various more or less drastic ways to do that. But IMO it is simply bad when dogs do this stuff, and I beleive that to think otherwise would be to invite disaster.

 

Yeah this is exactly my problem. What is acceptable and what isn't? What is communicating and what is aggression? Grovering I understand and loev. That is hey pay attention to me, I have something to tell you or show you. But showing teeth? What do people think about showing teeth? It's a low grade threat. If you don't stop I will use these. Honestly, personally, I don't like it.

 

Is there some way to teach her to favor a different "communication" skill? I would like to teach her to WHINE if she wants me to stop something. I was thinking about putting a name to whine and then the next time she demanded I change my behavior by showing teeth, I could tell her to whine instead, and then when she did THAT, I'd stop. She would pick up on that after about two repetitions I think.

 

The one good thing about the incident yesterday morning was it was VERY predictable after the original show of teeth by Pan which surprised me (like after that I was just calmly and subtly experimenting slowly moving my hand to see what she was going to do because I wanted to understand what was going on).

 

Thanks Alaska for the great tips about how to stop a dog from making house rules. Love it. I will try that.

 

And I will ask about the progesterone therapy after spay question in another post and forum shortly.

[mbc1963]

I understand the theory behind the "growling is communication" post. If I were doing something that made my dog growl at me, it would mean there was something seriously wrong with what I was doing. Say, for example, the time he had stabbed himself in the chest on a stick, and I didn't know it, and I put my hand right on his wound. In that situation, he was right to growl at me, and even right (dare I say it!?) to gently put his mouth around my hand and give the tiniest whisper-touch with his teeth. Happily, he showed me in that instant that he had absolute control over himself, and wouldn't put tooth pressure on me even when was in extreme pain. (::Sigh:: He's such a good boy.)

 

But I can snuggle my dog, and kiss him all over his face, and comb his tangly tail, and take icky garbage-day spoils out of his mouth, and he doesn't growl at me. Mind you, I don't go out of my way to pester him, and I respect his space and let him sleep in peace, and don't poke at him while he's eating. But I pretty much have free rein to do what I want to my dog, and he understands that he doesn't get to growl at me unless I'm doing something really crazy, like poking at his wounds.

 

It sounds like PansMom is doing normal owner stuff, and finding that her dog is not allowing it. I wouldn't hold onto my dog's muzzle deliberately to teach him a lesson, but my dog wouldn't growl at me if I did hold onto his muzzle, so other people don't need to evaluate my muzzle-holding behavior. (Mericfully!)

 

It almost sounds like Pan is just hyperreactive to things that wouldn't set off most normal dogs. (Reminds me of the way my dog gets grouchier and less tolerant when he's sick. And makes me wonder if there's physical pain?) I dunno if it could be dominance issues - maybe - but the way Pan reacts is not the way my more "normal" dog would react. I'd listen if my dog were telling me to stop doing something, but my dog wouldn't talk to me the way Pan is talking to her owner. I think I'd be really leery of the growls of a dog who is as forceful in her "orders" as Pan is.

 

Mary

[BorderCollieSam]

I am certainly no dog therapist, and neither have i read the whole thread.

 

However, i am somebody who loves dogs, and spent the best part of my childhood and teenage years with dogs, and have encountered the odd aggressive dog in my time, which has snarled at me.

 

What i'm about to say isn't for one minute suggesting that the OP isn't treating her dog correctly, however from what i have read, i'm just wondering if the dog is very hyper sensitive and untrusting towards humans.

 

If this was my dog do you know what i would do?

 

I would be determined to build a strong bond between this dog and me and gain this dogs trust. I certainly wouldn't hold it down in any submissive positions, not saying this doesn't work, however everybody has their own methods and this isn't something i would do in this particular situation, as it appears the dog is far too sensitive and untrusting for this method, and i can see that only making matters worse in this case.

 

However i would also not let the dog see i was frightened of it either when it does snarle its teeth.

 

I would spend every waking hour with the dog, even if it meant me taking a 2 week holiday from work, and i would make a make-shift bed in a spare room just for me and the dog.

 

I would live with her, sleep with her, eat with her, and play with her for a fortnight and then reevaluate the situation afterwards to see if there is any change.

 

Thats what i would do, and i'm sure after two weeks the bond between the OP and dog would be so strong that the dog would never need to growl/snarle/show its teeth again towards the OP, as it would trust her judgement and actions, and then once she trusts the OP, maybe then the dog can start to learn how to trust other humans also, one step at a time......

[Shoofly]

Is there some way to teach her to favor a different "communication" skill? I would like to teach her to WHINE if she wants me to stop something. I was thinking about putting a name to whine and then the next time she demanded I change my behavior by showing teeth, I could tell her to whine instead, and then when she did THAT, I'd stop. She would pick up on that after about two repetitions I think.

 

I've been following this thread pretty loosely, especially once the sniping about methods started. But, i've been trying to keep up with your (the OP's) posts. You sound like a really smart person who wants to do what's best, like you don't want to give up on your dog, and i think that's terrific. I really question whether this dog, in this situation can ever be truly trustworthy, but good on you for trying at least.

 

One suggestion, based on the quote above -- it might help to change your mindset a bit about this. I don't mean to be offensive in any way, but the idea of training her how to tell you to change your behavior seems, well, silly (sorry, can't seem to come up with a better word for it). A normal dog, with normal reactions, ought to just sit back and grin and bear it. You should be aiming at ways to encourage *that* behavior and reaction, rather than trying to figure out a way to make it more tolerable to you for your dog to be in charge of the situation.

[Shoofly]

Another thought - are there any BC rescue groups anywhere near you? I wonder if you might be able to hook up with someone affiliated with a rescue group, who would likely have dealt with lots of BCs, who could help you evaluate this dog and her aggression. It might help a lot to work with someone who has lots of experience with the breed.

[JBlaylock]

She likes her name. We never say it when she's bad. We say "NO" or "No ma'am." We had heard about the turning over a new leaf name change thing so when we took her to the behaviorist we asked about the possibility of a name change (especially since "Pan" is from when we thought SHE was a HE when she was a pup) but the behaviorist said, no, she likes her name. The behaviorist was working at a large animal sanctuary and she pointed out how Pan would turn and her posture change in this relaxed attentive way when we'd call out her name from all the way across the field. But I do know she likes "Monster" better than "Pan" because I only say "monster" when she's being REALLY good and she's really happy and relaxed (like when we're running) Or if I need to say something to let her know everything is okay. Like when we did the bloodwork... she was being SO CALM (as dogs are wont to be, I assume, when muzzled) so I was like goooooooood monster over and over. Anyway, I don't think a name change is in order.

 

That's cool. I didn't mean to sound like I was nessesarily suggesting you change her name. I just meant to point out that if you ever did end up going that route, for whatever reason, maybe "Grover" or "Groverina" would be a fitting and funny name

[JBlaylock]

Pansmom. I believe a dog can have fear agression and dominance issues at the same time. I didn't get that you were saying it couldn't have fear agression and domiance aggression at literaly the same time, I aggree with that. But, not all dominance issues are agression. I believe a dog can easily have dominance issues that lead to fear agression at the same time, IMO.

 

Think of it this way. A certain dog may not be a naturaly dominant dog, but if the owner doesn't properly fill the role as a pack leader and provide all of the guidance, direction, discipline, and affection the dog needs, the dog might panic and try to fill that role. At the same time, that dog was not internaly programed to be a dominant leader and is only filling that role by default, and thus he/she panics and developed nervousness, which can turn to fear, when thigns don't go just right, or if that dog doesn't know how to make them go right. Thus, it can in some cases turn into fear agression, which could be an outward manifestation of the dog's fear from not knowing how to handle a situation as the inexperienced default pack leader. So, the agression can sometimes be routed in dominance issues.

 

Dominance agression on the other hand can be a dominant dog displaying agression in order to take control, whereas fear agression could be a submissive dog displaying aggression out of fear because they are forced to take control due to a lack of a pack leader, and he/she doesn't know how.

 

Anyways, those are just my thoughts from my experiences and my research, and in no way meant to be an "every case is this way" type statement.

 

 

As for Pan, I can't say what the case is for sure because I haven't met her or you, or watched you guys together. But, I admire how persistant you have been in helping her, and I hope for the best outcome with you guys, whatever that ends up being in this case.

[beachdogz]

I am certainly no dog therapist, and neither have i read the whole thread............

I would live with her, sleep with her, eat with her, and play with her for a fortnight and then reevaluate the situation afterwards to see if there is any change.

 

I found this to be a most insightful response. Although I don't think it would necessarily apply to this situation, since the OP has lived with the dog since it was 5 weeks old, I still believe it is a very insightful and worthwhile theory...reminds me of the Helen Keller story, but with dogs. It is something I will tuck into the recesses of my mind for the future....probably very helpful when bringing home a rescue or re-homed dog. Thank you, BorderCollieSam.

 

I still can't help but believe (or wonder) that being separated from the litter at 5 weeks of age is a major contributing factor toward this problem. I will also give the disclaimer that I am not a licensed behaviorist. However, after over 25 years of instructing dog obedience classes/consulting and over a thousand dogs that I studied individually through documentation of their application questionnaire, it was apparent that the overwhelming majority of dogs with acute behavior problems left the litter at 6 weeks or under. I realize it's not very scientific, but it was there - right in front of my eyes.

 

I also applaud Pansmom for her pursuit of this problem and how she's going about it. Very impressive. I, like most everyone, am very interested in updates and outcomes. I am very interested in the hormone theory. Keep us posted!

 

All fingers and paws crossed for a positive outcome!

[Root Beer]

One suggestion, based on the quote above -- it might help to change your mindset a bit about this. I don't mean to be offensive in any way, but the idea of training her how to tell you to change your behavior seems, well, silly (sorry, can't seem to come up with a better word for it). A normal dog, with normal reactions, ought to just sit back and grin and bear it. You should be aiming at ways to encourage *that* behavior and reaction, rather than trying to figure out a way to make it more tolerable to you for your dog to be in charge of the situation.

 

And, on the other side of the issue, the idea that acknowledging a sign from the dog that he or she feels threatened or fearful in some way renders the dog "in charge" seems silly to me!

 

There isn't a lot of difference between a dog giving some "verbal" communication to express fear or mental discomfort and a dog giving a "verbal" communication to express physical pain. (Ex. if a dog is crying at night because he or she has an upset stomach, the dog is not trying to be "in charge" - it is simply an expression of physical pain and is very reasonable)

 

If, in fact, Pan is growling because she truly understands pansmom as a threat to her in some way, that is not a behavior that Pan is choosing. Backing off because the dog expresses fear or serious discomfort or lack of trust in some way is really very similar to backing off because the dog is in pain.

 

For example, one of my dogs sometimes grunts (not a full growl, but definitely a grunt) very distinctively when he is feeling pain from his arthritis and I touch the spot. It makes good sense for me to move away and go get him some pain meds when that happens. It would not make sense for me to insist on continuing to pet him and make him stop grunting so he won't be "in charge" of that situation. I want him to let me know when he is in pain so I can provide him with what he needs to feel better. Once he feels better, he doesn't grunt and again enjoys being petted.

 

And, if one of my dogs percieves that something - even if that were myself - is a threat to his or her well being (and this has a physiological component over which the dog has no control), I want the dog to express that so I can approach the situation in some way that is going to help the dog become less feaful and more trusting. That does not render the dog "in charge". In fact, that allows me to take charge because I have that important piece of information.

[Shoofly]

It would not make sense for me to insist on continuing to pet him and make him stop grunting so he won't be "in charge" of that situation.

 

I never said that. I simply said the goal should be a dog that behaves like a normal dog, that the OP might try to go at it from that angle. This is a smart, clever dog owner who is trying to work out the problem. I think considering another angle is a helpful suggestion.

 

What you're talking about is quite different from a dog that snaps and snarls and bites and breaks skin just because someone *stood up from the couch*. There's nothing wrong with a dog that has normal behavior patterns "communicating". Pan obviously falls outside that category.

 

And that's all i'll have to say on it, i'm not getting into the usual positive vs coercive argument because it irritates me to no end and isn't helpful to the OP.

[pansmom]

I am certainly no dog therapist, and neither have i read the whole thread.

 

However, i am somebody who loves dogs, and spent the best part of my childhood and teenage years with dogs, and have encountered the odd aggressive dog in my time, which has snarled at me.

 

What i'm about to say isn't for one minute suggesting that the OP isn't treating her dog correctly, however from what i have read, i'm just wondering if the dog is very hyper sensitive and untrusting towards humans.

 

If this was my dog do you know what i would do?

 

I would be determined to build a strong bond between this dog and me and gain this dogs trust. I certainly wouldn't hold it down in any submissive positions, not saying this doesn't work, however everybody has their own methods and this isn't something i would do in this particular situation, as it appears the dog is far too sensitive and untrusting for this method, and i can see that only making matters worse in this case.

 

However i would also not let the dog see i was frightened of it either when it does snarle its teeth.

 

I would spend every waking hour with the dog, even if it meant me taking a 2 week holiday from work, and i would make a make-shift bed in a spare room just for me and the dog.

 

I would live with her, sleep with her, eat with her, and play with her for a fortnight and then reevaluate the situation afterwards to see if there is any change.

 

Thats what i would do, and i'm sure after two weeks the bond between the OP and dog would be so strong that the dog would never need to growl/snarle/show its teeth again towards the OP, as it would trust her judgement and actions, and then once she trusts the OP, maybe then the dog can start to learn how to trust other humans also, one step at a time......

 

This is a nice theory, but we already tried it as much as is practical for us. For three weeks, she slept with us in the bedroom, we were working with her constantly (she was on NILIF, which she loves, because she prefers always to have a job), and I ran with her 1 hour and a half every morning and walked her at night. We didn't have to do any corrections for three weeks at all, and then she started growling for no reason at weird times (like in the middle of the night). (Note: this is a dog who has JERKED UP FROM SLEEPING into a barking snarling run, no lie, for a long time we thought she had nightmares, but I think they have stopped.) Anyway when she was sleeping with us in the bedroom our first responses were things like, "No ma'am be a good dog" and that seemed to solve the night growling because consistently everytime she growled there was a mild correction followed by positive encouragement. But as soon as the night growling stopped, she started growling during the day more and more frequently and now though she hasn't bitten in... I guess it's three weeks now... she has gotten so unpredictable with the cats and snarling that my husband will not let her sleep with us, because we're not really supervising her with them while we're sleeping. So she sleeps in the kitchen. I know Pan would prefer to sleep with us but it's not safe for the cats and not fair for my husband to have to fear walking barefoot to the bathroom at night. Also, we don't have a spare room that I can sleep in with her, and my husband is already making enough sacrifices for me and Pan that I raelly don't want to ask him to not mind me sleeping in another room for two weeks. We're only married two years you know.

 

Anyway I know Pan responds best to mild corrections followed by positive reinforcement but there are some situations where we have to do more than just say "no ma'am be a good dog." I never hit her or anything like that but when a dog jumps up on you, and is obviously agitated and nipping, you have to stop it. So what I do in that situation is step toward her and say "No MA'AM, OFF" and take my right hand, gently wrap it around her snout, and look her in the eyes and say "no bites." And then when her eyes and face relax I let go and say "good girl." This is how we taught her not to nip as a pup, after yowling in faux-pain didn't work very well. The problem with Pan is she is VERY forceful and assertive... and she can be threatening. Most of the time when she is jumping up she is using her mouth as a hand not a weapon and the jumping doesn't FEEL like aggression, even though I know dominance theory would say it's a symptom. But she doesn't do this often, maybe once a week or so, she gets excited enough to do this, like say I grab my keys and wallet and she's like OMG CAR!!!!! And goes off. But she's just super excited and happy and tail wagging. But if I am sitting and she gets near my face I have to get up and get out of the way and say NO.

 

My working theory currently is as follows: genetically, I think Pan is a very assertive, highly intelligent dog who has a high prey drive and a low threshold; it was so hard to get her to the point where she would lay calmly around the house instead of running around psychotically barking at the tiniest sometimes even inaudible sounds; she was super shy and submissive as a puppy; she is obviously by nature a nervous dog. Hormonally/chemically, there may be something wrong with her, or it may simply be the natural progression of age. We worked with her to desensitize her to other dogs and things that scared her, but now that she is not scared, she is snarky with other dogs and aggressive toward them. She KNOWS how to properly meet other dogs, and if a dog is smaller than her and relaxed she will get low down on the ground and show them she is not a threat. But if they are her size or larger or acting aggressively she is NOT predictable at all. Environmentally, I think she wasn't taught complete bite inhibition by her mother (we had to do it ourselves and were not as successful as her mother might have been). I think I probably spoiled her as a puppy, taking her onto my lap and letting her lead me on the leash for months and doing a lot of things that looking back I wouldn't now. Also I would have had her in dog training classes earlier, and kept her in them CONSISTENTLY so she would never have had time to forget that other dogs aren't so bad. But even if I hadn't made all these mistakes I don't know if she'd be okay: her behavior is extraordinary enough that I can say she may have something genetically wrong with her.

 

Either way, speculating isn't helpful except where it helps us to decide on treatment and behavioral mod, so all I can do is be as gentle (yet assertive) with her as possible, always. And she does trust me a lot more than she once did when the bites first started happening and my husband and I had NO EARTHLY IDEA HOW TO ACT. But she still doesn't trust either of us completely and yes I have wondered if there's pain we're not catching. But apart from a battery of really expensive tests like MRIs there is no way to know. And she still loves to run which we do every day (although she doesn't always get that night walk) and she doesn't ACT like she's in pain in any other way except for the overprotectiveness of her body. I honestly think it's more about not wanting to be coddled and wanting control. Apart from laying at our feet and cuddling them (and yes if I tell her to move, she will, ASAP, so it's not dominance aggression cuddling where she wants to OWN our feet) I think the only affection she wants is play. Which she gets a lot, but I love her so much, I really wish she was ok with more petting like she used to be as a pup.

[Root Beer]

I never said that. I simply said the goal should be a dog that behaves like a normal dog, that the OP might try to go at it from that angle. This is a smart, clever dog owner who is trying to work out the problem. I think considering another angle is a helpful suggestion.

 

I agree completely. That's why I wanted to make a contribution to the discussion from the other point of view. It is well worth seriously considering both points of view, along with others.

 

What you're talking about is quite different from a dog that snaps and snarls and bites and breaks skin just because someone *stood up from the couch*. There's nothing wrong with a dog that has normal behavior patterns "communicating". Pan obviously falls outside that category.

 

What I am talking about can very well manifest as the dog snarling and biting when someone stands up from the couch. If that response is fear based - and I am absolutely in agreement with those who hold that a good vet behaviorist should be involved in making the determination as to whether or not Pan's behavior is fear based - then that is actually exactly what I was referring to.

 

And that's all i'll have to say on it, i'm not getting into the usual positive vs coercive argument because it irritates me to no end and isn't helpful to the OP.

 

What I am saying here is actually quite different from a positive vs. coercive discussion. I'm sorry if that wasn't apparent.

 

I was making a comment on the idea, which has come up in this thread, that any and all growling that a dog does - particularly at his or her owner - is the dog trying to be "in charge". In Pan's case, this might not even be a response that Pan is "choosing" per se, and backing off when Pan growls may not be silly - it just may be a very practical and constructive course of action.

[JBlaylock]

-snip- Pan responds best to mild corrections followed by positive reinforcement -snip-

 

How long is the gap - timewise- between the correction and the positive reinforcment? I'm just curious in trying to really understand the situation. Please try to describe a situation including her initial "problematic" behavior, your correction, and your positive reinforcement. Thanks.

[Eileen Stein]

I still can't help but believe (or wonder) that being separated from the litter at 5 weeks of age is a major contributing factor toward this problem. I will also give the disclaimer that I am not a licensed behaviorist. However, after over 25 years of instructing dog obedience classes/consulting and over a thousand dogs that I studied individually through documentation of their application questionnaire, it was apparent that the overwhelming majority of dogs with acute behavior problems left the litter at 6 weeks or under. I realize it's not very scientific, but it was there - right in front of my eyes.

 

I don't agree with this -- I would pretty much discount this as a factor, myself. For one thing, I think the gain that dogs get from remaining with mom and littermates longer is in their behaviors with other dogs, not in their relations with humans. [ETA: I see that while I was writing this, the OP posted that Pan does have problems relating to other dogs, which I don't think she'd mentioned before. Since the main problem is with her humans, though, I think this observation still applies.]

 

My experience has been different from yours -- the best-temperamented dog I've ever known left her litter at five weeks, I've known many other problem-free dogs who left their litters that early, and most of the problem dogs I've known happen to have stayed with their litters at least seven weeks and in some cases several weeks more. In pondering what the difference in our experience might be attributable to, I wonder if it might not be that most of the border collies I've known have been from traditional working breeders, where it's much more common for breeders both good and not-so-good to place the pup at five or six weeks. OTOH, if the dogs you've had experience with were not border collies from working breeders, then the time when they left their litters might tend to be reflective of the overall quality of the breeder/breeding. I would guess that the more "responsible" pet and sport breeders keep their pups the longest, and also put more effort into breeding and nurture. The "for profit" breeders would be more inclined to get rid of the pups asap, and probably are more likely to be indifferent to other quality considerations in their breeding and puppy care. So (leaving traditional working breeders aside), maybe early placement correlates with behavior problems that were in fact caused by poor breeding or some other factor that tends to coincide with leaving the litter early, rather than by leaving the litter early itself?

[SoloRiver]

I am not a behaviorist. I am a person with a wacky dog who has a background in biology and has worked on a project studying the genetics of anxiety-related behaviors in dogs, including noise phobias and fear aggression (see link in .sig). I still think this dog should be seen by a behaviorist, but some simple things that PM can do would introduce some more structure into Pan's life and help increase the trust between them.

 

PM is already familiar with NILIF, and that's good, because it structures the relationship so that the human controls the interactions. Most of us aren't that strict with NILIF (for example, if Solo comes over and sticks his head under my hand, I'm gonna pet him without making him sit first at least some of the time) but with a dog like Pan being very strict with NILIF is probably helpful. That way she knows what to expect from interactions and the situations are more predictable to her. This doesn't mean being harsh, it just means always requesting a behavior before granting anything the dog wants -- anything -- going through a door, getting her food, being petted (if she wants to be petted -- which it doesn't sound like she does).

 

Another behavioral modification protocol PM could use, and in fact the one that is the foundation of all of the behavior mod protocols that I have worked through with Solo, is Karen Overall's "Protocol for Relaxation" (Karen is Solo's behaviorist) which teaches the dog to (1) look to you for cues to shape his behavior and (2) relax on a cue. It sounds crazy, but it works. A Google search on "protocol relaxation karen overall" will net you a number of useful sites. The protocol is explained in Karen's book, and on this page and this page. I can also scan and email the relevant pages to PM if she likes. This protocol relies on the fact that dogs are transparent, and that if they LOOK relaxed and happy, it is because they ARE relaxed and happy. By rewarding them when they are relaxed, happy, and focused on you, you are reinforcing a kind of mental "happy place" that anxious dogs have trouble finding on their own.

 

It sounds like Pan has trouble trusting the OP, which is not the OP's fault really, but probably part of who Pan happens to be right now. What I would be doing is trying to rebuild that trust. Note: Solo has never threatened me, not even right after I brought him home and he didn't know me, nor is he a resource guarder. But I did have a serious resource guarder -- my Papillon -- who not only growled at me but attempted to bite me on several occasions over food and spaces. Had he been a larger dog he probably would have been dangerous. I worked with him using the relaxation protocol and Jean Donaldson's trading games and he became fine with me, but ultimately I decided to rehome him because he hated living with the other dogs. Had he been larger, and had the right home not come along, I would not have rehomed him as it would have been too unsafe. He went to live with a training nut who doesn't like children very much and never has them around, so it was a safe home for the Papillon and he is much happier now.

 

I digress. In Pan's case I would refrain from doing things that she has shown trouble with in the past (like being petted around the snout) and any behavior that would trigger the growling or aggression. This doesn't involve tiptoeing around her, but it does involve management, like the not allowing her to sleep in the bedroom that PM and her husband are already doing (good idea) or if in the bedroom, Pan would have to be in a crate, etc. If this were my dog, I would just not pet her or touch her at all for now, and only interact with her in structured situations so that she is being asked to perform behaviors (sit, down, whatever she knows how to do well and will not stress over being asked to do) and rewarding her with food or toy rewards, whichever works best for her. I would also probably be hand feeding her most of her food a piece at a time so she has nothing to guard and to reinforce that the good stuff comes from me. And I would be doing Jean Donaldson's trading games, wherein you start by trading low-value objects the dog will not guard and slowly working up to higher value stuff. For resource guarders, really high value stuff (like bones) is probably never safe.

 

I am interested in what the bloodwork shows but keep in mind that it will not tell you if Pan has a serotonin imbalance or other neurotransmitter wackiness going on. The only way to determine that with a test would be with a CNS tap, which isn't done. Normally the way you confirm that hypothesis is by starting the dog on meds (like Clomicalm or amitryptyline, which is Elavil, or fluoxetine, which is Prozac). If the dog responds positively to the meds, then you know s/he has a problem that is being treated. These are meds that won't do anything much if the dog doesn't actually have the problems that they treat, and since dogs cannot exhibit a placebo effect you can be sure that whatever you are seeing (and the changes can be very dramatic) are due to the treatment. Normally such drugs take two to three weeks to take effect.

 

If the dog is dominant aggressive there is a slim chance that the meds will make the dog worse, because they may increase the dog's confidence and make him act out in more situations and not less. Karen Overall discusses this in her book, which may be where your vet got it from, but she also mentions that such dogs are EXCEEDINGLY rare and that most aggressive dogs are the way they are because they are fearfully anxious, not because they want to be the masters of the universe. Pan really doesn't sound like a "masters of the universe" type to me (granted, I am not a behaviorist and I don't know the dog personally) so to me doing the experiment with the medications sounds totally worth it. You would need to watch her closely for behavioral changes and give the meds time to work, but if after a reasonable trial period (like a few months) the changes you were seeing were negative you could just wean her off the drugs and try something else. If they permanently changed dogs, then Solo wouldn't have to take his any more.

 

Hope this helps. Good luck, you're doing a great job.

[Shoofly]

Great post Melanie. I totally agree about the med trials.

[jvw]

I have nothing of value to add to the behavior aspects of this discussion. I just want to say I really applaud you Pan's Mom. Your dedication and persistence blows me away. I have to admit in your situation I cannot imagine having the patience. I wish you the very best of luck.

 

Jennifer

[pansmom]

How long is the gap - timewise- between the correction and the positive reinforcment? I'm just curious in trying to really understand the situation. Please try to describe a situation including her initial "problematic" behavior, your correction, and your positive reinforcement. Thanks.

 

OK, if she is showing teeth, I'll say "No ma'am (BEAT) be a good dog," if in the beat, she stops what she's doing that's bad. A second beat. I'm watching her to see what she's going to do. If she doesn't stop what she's doing, all she gets is the "no ma'am." Yesterday when she was lifting her lip at me for example all she got was the "no ma'am." (We have added the "ma'am" to make sure *we* know to keep corrections polite. We used to just say no, but adding the ma'am helped us to remember to be assertive yet gentle. Both my husband and I have very strong personalities when confronted.)

 

I look at the "Be a good dog" as positive ENCOURAGEMENT not positive reinforcement because - well this may sound silly - but I think she knows the difference between "Good dog" and "Be a good dog" because they are sad in completely different tones. "Be a good dog" is a command, not praise. I don't know how to explain it other than her body language is different for either. Also I tell her "Be a good dog" when I leave for the day and when I put her to bed at night.

 

Granted, she could be misunderstanding, and I'm open to changing how I handle this if the majority of people think I might be confusing her by using the words "good dog," but this is a dog to whom you can say, "Where is lambie, go get lambie" (or the name of any toy whose name she knows, hidden anywhere in the house or yard) and she will be gone for five minutes and bring it back. I swear she understands verb + subject combos but I could be wrong. She also knows "Hush, it's daddy" when my husband comes home, "Where is Daddy, go see Daddy," "Time to go dog running," "Use the restroom" -- as a puppy we used long cues instead of short ones because we didn't know what we were doing and she's used to them. And of course there is body language and tone to go with the words. You know?

[pansmom]

I am not a behaviorist. I am a person with a wacky dog who has a background in biology and has worked on a project studying the genetics of anxiety-related behaviors in dogs, including noise phobias and fear aggression (see link in .sig). I still think this dog should be seen by a behaviorist, but some simple things that PM can do would introduce some more structure into Pan's life and help increase the trust between them.

 

PM is already familiar with NILIF, and that's good, because it structures the relationship so that the human controls the interactions. Most of us aren't that strict with NILIF (for example, if Solo comes over and sticks his head under my hand, I'm gonna pet him without making him sit first at least some of the time) but with a dog like Pan being very strict with NILIF is probably helpful. That way she knows what to expect from interactions and the situations are more predictable to her. This doesn't mean being harsh, it just means always requesting a behavior before granting anything the dog wants -- anything -- going through a door, getting her food, being petted (if she wants to be petted -- which it doesn't sound like she does).

 

Another behavioral modification protocol PM could use, and in fact the one that is the foundation of all of the behavior mod protocols that I have worked through with Solo, is Karen Overall's "Protocol for Relaxation" (Karen is Solo's behaviorist) which teaches the dog to (1) look to you for cues to shape his behavior and (2) relax on a cue. It sounds crazy, but it works. A Google search on "protocol relaxation karen overall" will net you a number of useful sites. The protocol is explained in Karen's book, and on this page and this page. I can also scan and email the relevant pages to PM if she likes. This protocol relies on the fact that dogs are transparent, and that if they LOOK relaxed and happy, it is because they ARE relaxed and happy. By rewarding them when they are relaxed, happy, and focused on you, you are reinforcing a kind of mental "happy place" that anxious dogs have trouble finding on their own.

 

It sounds like Pan has trouble trusting the OP, which is not the OP's fault really, but probably part of who Pan happens to be right now. What I would be doing is trying to rebuild that trust. Note: Solo has never threatened me, not even right after I brought him home and he didn't know me, nor is he a resource guarder. But I did have a serious resource guarder -- my Papillon -- who not only growled at me but attempted to bite me on several occasions over food and spaces. Had he been a larger dog he probably would have been dangerous. I worked with him using the relaxation protocol and Jean Donaldson's trading games and he became fine with me, but ultimately I decided to rehome him because he hated living with the other dogs. Had he been larger, and had the right home not come along, I would not have rehomed him as it would have been too unsafe. He went to live with a training nut who doesn't like children very much and never has them around, so it was a safe home for the Papillon and he is much happier now.

 

I digress. In Pan's case I would refrain from doing things that she has shown trouble with in the past (like being petted around the snout) and any behavior that would trigger the growling or aggression. This doesn't involve tiptoeing around her, but it does involve management, like the not allowing her to sleep in the bedroom that PM and her husband are already doing (good idea) or if in the bedroom, Pan would have to be in a crate, etc. If this were my dog, I would just not pet her or touch her at all for now, and only interact with her in structured situations so that she is being asked to perform behaviors (sit, down, whatever she knows how to do well and will not stress over being asked to do) and rewarding her with food or toy rewards, whichever works best for her. I would also probably be hand feeding her most of her food a piece at a time so she has nothing to guard and to reinforce that the good stuff comes from me. And I would be doing Jean Donaldson's trading games, wherein you start by trading low-value objects the dog will not guard and slowly working up to higher value stuff. For resource guarders, really high value stuff (like bones) is probably never safe.

 

I am interested in what the bloodwork shows but keep in mind that it will not tell you if Pan has a serotonin imbalance or other neurotransmitter wackiness going on. The only way to determine that with a test would be with a CNS tap, which isn't done. Normally the way you confirm that hypothesis is by starting the dog on meds (like Clomicalm or amitryptyline, which is Elavil, or fluoxetine, which is Prozac). If the dog responds positively to the meds, then you know s/he has a problem that is being treated. These are meds that won't do anything much if the dog doesn't actually have the problems that they treat, and since dogs cannot exhibit a placebo effect you can be sure that whatever you are seeing (and the changes can be very dramatic) are due to the treatment. Normally such drugs take two to three weeks to take effect.

 

If the dog is dominant aggressive there is a slim chance that the meds will make the dog worse, because they may increase the dog's confidence and make him act out in more situations and not less. Karen Overall discusses this in her book, which may be where your vet got it from, but she also mentions that such dogs are EXCEEDINGLY rare and that most aggressive dogs are the way they are because they are fearfully anxious, not because they want to be the masters of the universe. Pan really doesn't sound like a "masters of the universe" type to me (granted, I am not a behaviorist and I don't know the dog personally) so to me doing the experiment with the medications sounds totally worth it. You would need to watch her closely for behavioral changes and give the meds time to work, but if after a reasonable trial period (like a few months) the changes you were seeing were negative you could just wean her off the drugs and try something else. If they permanently changed dogs, then Solo wouldn't have to take his any more.

 

Hope this helps. Good luck, you're doing a great job.

 

We are already doing STRICT NILIF (yes, I'm serious, except we already did the handfeeding for FIVE WHOLE WEEKS and now I can't do it anymore, I don't have the time at this point in the semester, I teach college, so she just gets fed twice a day after a long laundry list of commands which she does with zest because she knows she is working for food at that time). And honestly I don't think she needs it anymore, except when there are new strange noises, she is pretty calm in the house and doesn't have any obedience issues anymore, I think the NILIF habituated her to learn that when I lay calmly on the ground watching mama with my head down FOOD FALLS FROM THE SKY and GOOD THINGS HAPPEN so that is how she spends most of her time when we aren't working her... and she's not bothering cats.

 

Pan already knows the command "chill" which she loves because she knows something positive always comes from it (we taught it to her using tug of war). But you remind me of a good point: I think I will change to say "No ma'am, chill" instead of "no ma'am be a good dog" as "chill" is more clearly positive encouragement and it gives her an action to substitute.

 

Regarding trading games, we do those daily, that's why she doesn't resource guard her food from me anymore. There is a distinct behavior change when I am feeding her versus my husband. If he and the cats are in the room and I tell her to "leave it, out" (walk away from the food bowl) she will start eating FAST (which I just let her do) because she thinks someone's gonna try to take it, whereas if it's just me in the room and I tell her to "leave it, out" while she's eating she wags her tail and moves back and lays down and waits for me to put the fabulous treat she knows I'm about to put in her bowl.

 

I AM SO JEALOUS OF YOU FOR HAVING KAREN OVERALL AS A BEHAVIORIST. I have read all her online articles.

 

Sometimes I hate Louisiana.

[JBlaylock]

OK, if she is showing teeth, I'll say "No ma'am (BEAT) be a good dog," if in the beat, she stops what she's doing that's bad. A second beat. I'm watching her to see what she's going to do. If she doesn't stop what she's doing, all she gets is the "no ma'am." Yesterday when she was lifting her lip at me for example all she got was the "no ma'am." (We have added the "ma'am" to make sure *we* know to keep corrections polite. We used to just say no, but adding the ma'am helped us to remember to be assertive yet gentle. Both my husband and I have very strong personalities when confronted.)

 

I look at the "Be a good dog" as positive ENCOURAGEMENT not positive reinforcement because - well this may sound silly - but I think she knows the difference between "Good dog" and "Be a good dog" because they are sad in completely different tones. "Be a good dog" is a command, not praise. I don't know how to explain it other than her body language is different for either. Also I tell her "Be a good dog" when I leave for the day and when I put her to bed at night.

 

Granted, she could be misunderstanding, and I'm open to changing how I handle this if the majority of people think I might be confusing her by using the words "good dog," but this is a dog to whom you can say, "Where is lambie, go get lambie" (or the name of any toy whose name she knows, hidden anywhere in the house or yard) and she will be gone for five minutes and bring it back. I swear she understands verb + subject combos but I could be wrong. She also knows "Hush, it's daddy" when my husband comes home, "Where is Daddy, go see Daddy," "Time to go dog running," "Use the restroom" -- as a puppy we used long cues instead of short ones because we didn't know what we were doing and she's used to them. And of course there is body language and tone to go with the words. You know?

 

What is (BEAT)? Sorry if I'm missing the obvious, brain's running slow today.

[powerfulgazelle]

Hey, Pansmom---props to you. Pan is a fortunate dog to have you for a human.

 

Your recent post about Pan showing teeth/growling:

 

I have found a marked difference as far as growl vs. teeth and individual dogs. Kip (pulled from dog warden BC with unknown past at approx age 18 mos), shows "mad teeth" (silent curling of upper lip which can be maintained for a very long time or can just be a quick flash as his primary method of saying, "Stop. It. Now." He does it fairly often with Sollers (goofy, lovable, Forrest Gump type dog, Lab/pointer, who we adopted at age 4-5 mos, just before Kip and is the low dog at our house) when Sol invades his space, but only after doing some other doggie communication first. Kip has shown teeth to us humans only a few times---with ear examination, and dressing cut paws, when he was clearly taxed/stressed and was a valuable cue to us that he had all he could take for the moment. He has never growled at a human that I know of, and only growls at Sol when things are about to escalate to a more serious level.

 

Sol, OTOH, growls first, and that is usually a fairly benign "whinge" or complaint from him, to the tune of ,"But, Mooooo-om! Where's MY tasty pig ear???? Kip has one!"---it has a sulky quality to it, but does not seem aggressive. He will also growl at Kip, usually followed by flopping down and observing from afar, as in "Hrrrumph.". When Sol has shown teeth, tho, he means it---never to humans, but usually associated with some more serious attempt at a power/status grab from Kip.

 

I don't know that teeth/growl is always an unacceptable display of aggression. Seems more to me like how some people say swear words fairly freely, others reserve them for never or very special occasions.

[NRhodes]

JBlaylock, she means a pause.