Eileen Stein Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 Lenajo, you don't have the slightest clue who I am, so don't make assumptions like I get all my opinions from watching TV, because you don't know. You also are just "and internet poster" and you can't prove otherwise any more than I can prove I'm a Dinosaur, so why don't you quit getting your kicks from trying to give me a hard time. . . . . don't misleead yourselves off of personal bias towards your babies, but envite a guest over and really examine who's in control in your pack. Then come back here and continue your course as internet posters, hiding behind the saftey or the worldwideweb. JBlaylock, people are allowed to post here without identifying themselves, but inevitably the opinions of anonymous posters -- particularly those unwilling to disclose the factual background from which they claim expertise -- are just not taken as seriously as those whose identity and expertise are known. The border collie world is a small one. I know Lenajo, Journey and most of the other posters to this thread apart from the Internet, and most others here do too, or they know them by reputation, or they are friends of friends, or at the very least they have become knowledgeable about them from prolonged interaction on the Boards. If you decline to identify yourself, or answer questions about the basis for your claims, people are naturally more likely to discount what you say, especially if it is contradicted by people who have earned respect for real life experience and accomplishments. That's just human nature. As for me and this forum, I'm tired of this so quickly after only a coupld of weeks. What a bunch of snobs some of you are, and so hasty to trash talk. I thought this would be a fun place for adults to have mature conversations about dogs, instead I see it's full of children who misunderstand points and hastily jump the gun to insult. I hope you can see that what you've written here, as well as what you wrote in the earlier post which Alaska told you violated the Boards' rules against flaming, is nothing but personal insult. You may stay on the Boards or go as you see fit, but if you stay, you will not be permitted to post personal insults directed to other members. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BorderCollieSam Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 I agree that jblaylock is giving some terrible advice but it seems to me very unlikely, from Pansmom's various posts, that she would take such advice (& jblaylock seems very, very young-- maybe too young to realize how very complex these situations can be) I was surprised to see how young he was, just looked at his profile.......i had him down as a lot older for some reason...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoloRiver Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 Pansmom, I hate to say this because it's going to sound mean, and because what you are exhibiting is a totally human response. But you also seem sensible, so I hope you understand what I mean when I say that you really need to stop thinking about how YOU feel and consider your dog. So far, what I see is that you are looking for a solution that will make YOU feel better (which is totally understandable, by the way) and losing track of what will most effectively solve the problem. It sounds like you are not willing to take extra steps that may resolve the problem -- you have drawn a line in the sand and that's that -- so you are looking to pass the buck in order to avoid making the hard decisions that should be made in these contexts. There are really no suitable rehoming situations for aggressive dogs. Or maybe there are, but they are VERY few and far between and the "country home" you have proposed is NOT one of them. It may make you feel better to not own up to the decision to euthanize an aggressive dog, but it is not fair to Pan (who is apparently anxious, fearful, and sees dangers where none exist -- a miserable way to live). It is certainly not fair to the people who may encounter Pan as she roams unsupervised and be injured as a result. But it is really not fair to Pan. I have rehabilitated a dog somewhat like Pan. I would be a suitable home for a dog like Pan, but I don't want another one as I have my hands (and heart) full with the one that I have. There are not many homes like me out there, not to toot my own horn but it is a fact that most owners don't want to take a dog like this on, for totally understandable reasons. In other words, there probably is no way for you to responsibly pass the buck in this instance. I would never, ever abandon my Solo in the situation that you describe. I also would not let $200-$300 stand in the way of resolving the situation, but if you are unwilling to spend the money and your husband refuses to live with Pan you don't really have many options. You need to get realistic, really LOOK at your dog, who you say you love, and find a situation that is both feasible and kind to her. Dithering and excuses aren't going to help her. Stop feeling sorry for yourself and do what's right for Pan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 There are really no suitable rehoming situations for aggressive dogs. Or maybe there are, but they are VERY few and far between and the "country home" you have proposed is NOT one of them. It may make you feel better to not own up to the decision to euthanize an aggressive dog, but it is not fair to Pan (who is apparently anxious, fearful, and sees dangers where none exist -- a miserable way to live). It is certainly not fair to the people who may encounter Pan as she roams unsupervised and be injured as a result. But it is really not fair to Pan. Excellent, Melanie. As hard as it will be for Pansmom to read that, it needed to be written. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnewe2 Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 If you're doing your own thing, and the dog happens to start growling at something, immidiatly correct it, stand up straight - good posture and inner calmness - and use some command, whether is "ahht! Psst! Schhhh! Zzzzzt!, whatever" something that will catch the dogs attention, and point your hand at it like "yeah I'm talking to you". She will most likely stop growling, but if she continues, walk towards her, if you are really calm and assertive through and through she will - in most cases - surrender. If you have to grab her scruff and pin her on her side and hold her there, do it. I know you said the trainer tried this and as soon as he let go she bit him four times...well, a good trainer would ave known it wasn't time to let go yet. It's not just about pinning her. True you have to keep her pinned in submission, but you need to be calm inside while doing it, and you need to speek nurtureingly to her, "it's okay, good girl" - but not in an overemotional baby-talk tone, or she will think somethings wrong, just calm and normal like you'd talk to your friend. When you feel that she starts calming down a little, looses your grip, keep at least one hand on her scruff or side to keep her from jumping up, and use the other hand to massage her, behind the head, on the side, etc, but avoidthe mouth and face for now. It may take 15 minutes, but she will eventualy calm down and you can release the pinning hand and just pet her, all the while talking calmly to her. Scratch her belly, etc. Back off and go about your business like nothing happened, she'll see you are a great leader who knows how to keep control and make her feel comfortable. I know I'm beating a dead horse but I just had to quote that part. One, Pan's mom is not a trainer, she states this is her first dog. So you are asking her to do something that could really get her hurt. Two, had I done this to my fear aggressive dog she'd have ripped my face off. She is a great dog in her old age, but even now if I tried to pin her down like you say, I'm sure she'd rip my face off, then be oh so sorry that she did, to late, no face! When I put the idea out that you should take Pan it was really just so you could check yourself. Realizing that wasn't an option and quit giving advise to someone who is not in the position to understand let alone do what you have stated. Maybe a slight hope that you would step up and take the dog. I don't dig on people, or usually make rude comments, maybe backhanded a bit but I try to stay nice. I think I've been "nice" so far. There have been some new posters on here lately that jump in and give advise where to us long standing BC people seem wrong or simply uneducated answers trying to come off like they know something. Difference is the other posters are quickly learning they need to take time and let us see where they are coming from. You on the other hand think we should just buy into what you say and believe all of it. Not gonna happen. I reccomend staying around for a while, lurk, get the feel of the boards. Post if you want but take your time and show us all what type person you are, not by your words quickly written but by the long term exposure that most of us have on here. Most of the people you have insulted are kind, caring people, who get aggrivated at glib advise thrown around freely when the OP doesn't know the difference between someone who knows their stuff compared to someone just preaching what he thinks he know. You might be a doggy Godsend, we don't know you from adam. Like I said, take the poo off your shoulder, read and learn. Enjoy posting about your dogs, we will all enjoy reading about you and your dogs. But PLEASE don't post advise that can get someone seriously hurt! For the record...I like CM. But telling the OP to do what he does is like telling me to just do what Jack Knox does or some of the other great stockdog trainers out there. that's going to be a long time in the making and I do know what I"m doing and have spent more than 13 years trying to be a good dog handler. OK...off my soapbox ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnewe2 Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 OMT I keep reading Pan's Mom posts. It sounds like Pan is improving and what she's been doing is having some positive effects on Pan. Like Melanie said, if it takes $200 or $300 more dollars, that's not that much in the bigger scope of things. I think PM was looking for someone to finish what she started as she is over her own thresh hold at the moment. But I also think she loves Pan and after hearing all this reality I hope she keeps trying. I wish PM could take a breather. Maybe that's putting the dog outside her own house and not having her in her face all the time. Designated times that she will work with Pan. We all need a break from those hard cases. Maybe that's all PM needs. I know lots of dogs that live happy lives outside and are only interacted with when the owner has time (given that it's enough and not just stuck outside and forgotten) If that's something Pan can live with and it gives PM a break, I say go for it, but know the issues and Pan will be waiting for you to finsih the job. I do think she's a dog that can be turned around by what I've read about her. Look at Solo, Raven, so many other dogs out there that we've turned around. Don't give up PM...take a break from the 24/7 but don't give up on her. Make it 8/7 there are lots of dogs that get less attention for their whole life. I hear in your posts you love her to much to not keep trying. Even if it doesn't work, you'll feel like you tried just one more time and that should help when and if you have to make decisions that are going to be hard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted April 13, 2009 Report Share Posted April 13, 2009 So far, what I see is that you are looking for a solution that will make YOU feel better (which is totally understandable, by the way) and losing track of what will most effectively solve the problem. It sounds like you are not willing to take extra steps that may resolve the problem -- you have drawn a line in the sand and that's that -- so you are looking to pass the buck in order to avoid making the hard decisions that should be made in these contexts. . . . . You need to get realistic, really LOOK at your dog, who you say you love, and find a situation that is both feasible and kind to her. Dithering and excuses aren't going to help her. Stop feeling sorry for yourself and do what's right for Pan. Please do not speak to the OP's motives, or what you have decided are the OP's motives. Please speak to the facts. If you wish to state your opinion of what she should do and why she should do it, that is totally appropriate. You have already done that. Stating your opinion of what's wrong with her that she's not doing what you think she should do is not appropriate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freeman 101 Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 Fact is, 90% of dog trainers out there don't know what the hell they're talking about, and as much as you guys may want to feel personaly insulted or feel like i'm wrong, go pay attention to your packs at home, give yourself an honest evaluation, don't misleead yourselves off of personal bias towards your babies, but envite a guest over and really examine who's in control in your pack. Then come back here and continue your course as internet posters, hiding behind the saftey or the worldwideweb. As for me and this forum, I'm tired of this so quickly after only a coupld of weeks. What a bunch of snobs some of you are, and so hasty to trash talk. I thought this would be a fun place for adults to have mature conversations about dogs, instead I see it's full of children who misunderstand points and hastily jump the gun to insult. --------------------------------------------------------- Wow! Why would you say that? Are you a dog trainer? I work with clients and dogs professionally and have done this for over a decade. Teaching is a continual learning process, but I would never make the claim that 90% of dog trainers don't know what they're talking about. Where do you get these statistics? Although many trainers may not agree on methods, we all have the same goals--------to help dogs. One thing that I feel is totally unprofessional is to claim that I know everything about dogs and to treat my clients as idiots, so If you are training professionally I really, really hope this is not how you treat your clients. Also in a previous post you have mentioned that dogs do not have the same feelings as humans. How do you really know this? What evidence do you have to back this statement up? I'm not saying that there is not some truth to this, but we really don't know everything there is to know about dogs and you are doing a great disservice to dogs by having such a closed mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoloRiver Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 Please do not speak to the OP's motives, or what you have decided are the OP's motives. Please speak to the facts. If you wish to state your opinion of what she should do and why she should do it, that is totally appropriate. OK, fair enough. Look, PM. If you were my friend, this is what I would say to you. (In fact, I have said this to friends.) You need to decide what your priority is here. If your priority is a good outcome for Pan, there really aren't any effective half measures. If you really want to know you did all you could to help her, you could take her to a vet behaviorist. If your priority is to make what has become a major life problem for you go away, then it at least behooves you to do so in a way that is humane and kind to Pan. Setting her loose to essentially fend for herself in a "country home" is neither humane nor kind. Many normal dogs would not do well in such a situation, and it is even less likely that an anxious, fearful, overly defensive dog would do well in such a situation. Putting Pan in the backyard may make life easier for you, but it is unlikely to improve her quality of life if she is as defensive and insecure as you describe. Dogs like you describe Pan to be live in a world that is confusing and scary to them, and that seems full of threats and dangers, and banishing her from the house is not going to make her feel more secure or less frightened. As you seem sensitive to her feelings, I doubt it will make you feel any better either. For me, what it came down to, ultimately, was being able to look at myself in the mirror in the morning. When I adopted Solo and realized how many problems he had, I really did not want to deal with them. I felt very sorry for myself and wished I had not been so unlucky as to end up with this messed-up dog. But I could not live with myself if I were just another person who let Solo down. I stopped feeling sorry for myself and let myself feel compassion for this poor dog. I decided that I had to try, so that I would know that if I failed, at least I could say that I really did try, that I tried everything I could. I am not personally much of a fan of half measures. And you know what -- it worked. I don't expect you to make the choices I made, but I also don't have much respect for half measures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnewe2 Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 Putting Pan in the backyard may make life easier for you, but it is unlikely to improve her quality of life if she is as defensive and insecure as you describe. Dogs like you describe Pan to be live in a world that is confusing and scary to them, and that seems full of threats and dangers, and banishing her from the house is not going to make her feel more secure or less frightened. As you seem sensitive to her feelings, I doubt it will make you feel any better either. I sure didn't think I implied that PM should put Pam outside indefinitly. My suggestion was to put her outside part time so PM could get a break from the tension that STM everyone in the house is feeling at the moment. My scarred fear biting dog came from an outside kennel. She felt safe in her outside kennel. That is not what we did. But I did have support of family and was able to get a break when things got to rough at times. She was safe while I was regrouping getting stronger for what lied ahead in her rehab. Just clairfying my post incase anyone might have thought I meant that life would be better for Pan or PM's to just put the dog out of sight out of mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DebC Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 OK, I was very hesitant about posting a reply, and maybe I will wish I hadn't, but at the risk of sounding preachy I just wanted to point something out. I don't know where the 200 - 300$ amount came from, because I haven't read every single post in this thread. So forgive me if I am off base. My assumption is that this amount is a ballpark figure for some kind of treatment for Pan, ie a veterinary behaviorist or such? In the grand scheme of things, that may not seem like a large sum to some of us. But in the hard reality, it can mean the difference in what bills get paid, or not paid. Trust me, I have been there. Even if the OP could convince her husband that it would be money well spent, unless every single person in that house is on board with the plan, it isn't going to work. It doesn't matter how many books you read, or how much money you spend. This is a home with more than just Pan and the OP - and they all have to buy into this. Not to mention that they are considering starting a family. My heart breaks for the OP. There is just no easy solution here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 Deb, I think you're right. The OP has said numerous times that her husband really isn't on board with spending any more money to try and figure out Pan's problem. If finances are tight, they're tight and any amount of money might be more than they can afford. I feel bad for Pan and the OP, but I also think that letting a fearful dog go live in the country might be just as overwhelming to Pan as life living in the house was. If the OP can't find someone who is willing to take Pan on as a project, I personally feel the kindest thing for the dog would be to euthanize her. Then you know for sure that she is no longer feeling fear and confusion. The other problem I have with rehoming a fearful/aggressive dog is that I'd always worry that the new owner (or owners down the line) wouldn't be understanding and might treat the dog harshly or even abusively. That's the very reason I still have the fear aggressive dog I took in as a rescue with the express intent of fostering and rehoming. Once I realized all the issues he had, I realized I'd never be comfortable passing him on to someone else, partly because of what might happen to the humans in his life, but mostly because of fear of what might happen to him in less understanding hands. To me, there would be nothing worse than passing my fear aggressive dog into a life of greater misery and more fear at the hands of a person who thinks dominance can conquer fear. I do in fact consider that a fate worse than death for some dogs. J, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnewe2 Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 These are snippets from some of the posts PM has replied with. Sorry, but you haven't seen the dog in these situations. She is no longer guarding ANYTHING from us. I cured her of the resource guarding and protectiveness of areas in the home through training (the kennel we got rid of weeks ago, so she wouldn't think anything in the house was her own--it really seemed to help, too, now she doesn't guard anything from us at all). I can tell her to get out of any area in the home and take it myself and she is fine. She asks before she comes into our room, she doesn't jump on the couch, she does whatever we say! She even drops things (food and toys, even her KONG which once sent her through the roof over resource guarding) and brings them to me if I ask, and obeys any commands I ask her to. See it just happened again, the cat was playing with the bottom of the stove (for the first time in months) and she freaked out and started doing the low growly repeat-bark. Aggression like this not directed at us is a fairly common thing. This was fairly mild so I didn't need the spray gun or anything. I just said SHHHT and got up and walked over to the stove, had her go into a down stay a few feet away, and threw her food every time I did the same thing with my feet. After about five repetitions with treats I desensitized her to it. She learned if she didn't bark she got a treat. Now she's fine with it. I think so too, she's not TERRIBLE, really she isn't. She's just VERY spooky. The thing is she NEVER does this out of doors, when she's off leash or on a long leash (like a twenty foot training leash). Then she is confident. But indoors, that's another story. My husband simply won't trust her around kids. Also he knows how much work she will require as an indoor dog, and he knows I won't have time for that and children... There are a few exceptions to this pattern. The first three are resource guarding related (which she doesn't do anymore), and another is half resource guarding half REALLY OVER THRESHOLDness when she went to intermediate training and basically got kicked out and told she could only have one-on-one sessions because she bit someone. But I will admit that after her freaking out over a pig's ear I was petrified when the trainer suggested we let strangers pet Pan. And Pan was looking at me during the meet and greet and she let the first person pet her very nicely (but I trusted her and Pan already knew her from the dog park), but the second person (whom I didn't know and whom I was petrified of Pan biting) she bit. But she was looking at me the whole time and I managed this very poorly because I *gave* her over to the trainer and was standing six feet away looking on trying not to look scared but so nervous I was even forgetting to praise her so... it was a bad situation. And she didn't bite that guy very hard either. He just shrugged it off. And on the third one-on-one session at the store, the trainer encouraged her to wander PetSmart on a long leash and she started approaching strangers and being very friendly. But that night when she came home she was nervous and that was the last time she bit me, one and a half weeks ago, at the window, when the FedEx guy came to drop something behind our screen door and I approached her to touch her back and tell her to settle down. (1) Whatever we do has to be a joint decision between me and my husband. After the amount of time and effort and money we've already spent, my husband says we can't spend any more. Sure, we could go into debt for the dog and continue to put off our life plans, but it would take two of us being dedicated to her, a united front. I have been trying to "fix" Pan for months now, but it hasn't worked. Every time we get to a point where I think she might be, she does something aggressive that alienates us again. So he has reached his threshold, and I can't take her to a veterinary behaviorist. I wish I could, but I asked him about it after everyone recommended it so highly here, and he said no because it's not guaranteed and we've already spent so much. I was still hopeful when I posted this at first, and honestly in the back of my head I'm still hopeful that while I'm gone for this week he'll rediscover his trust in her, but the truth is, they probably won't and I'm not going to fight my husband on this: he does rank above the dog in my heart, and my continued devotion to her is already causing tension. There are two of us who have to live with her. And it's not like she's mauling people. She growls and snarls and yes, very occasionally bites, but she does have some bite inhibition as others have pointed out, barely breaking the skin. She just can't keep snarling and growling at us and our cats and one day our kids. It is psychologically difficult for us to live like this with her indoors. And again she has never bitten anyone outdoors. She just dodges and bolts and tries to get you to play. (We know all this because we often take her to the country where my husband's parents live, though they live in way too close proximity to other people with families and kids for us to rehome her there.) And note: the behaviorist that worked with her before thinks we should try to rehome her in a working location, calling the bites "nips," and the trainer we used let her roam free around customers on a long leash (to whom she was very polite and friendly) even though she had seen her bite(nip?) that stranger in a stressful situation two months before, so either everyone who's met the dog has really bad judgment - along with me and my husband, who live with her - or the general consensus of those who have met her is that this is a real possibility. If I was late coming into this discussion and only read what PM wrote and not all the other responses I would think the dog was improving. One of the things I did notice was that like Deb said, PM's DH is not on board. I really can't take on any fosters or other dogs at this time. Who knows in the future what I will be able to do, but if I was looking to help a dog at this time, from reading these posts I don't think Pan would scare me away. If PM had her desensitized to the cat and stove in 6 tries, I consider that a pretty quick response. Mick will kill a cat if he gets the chance, this is a dog that was raised with cats and was fine with them for a long time. Something triggered this response and to this date I've not been able to "desensitize" or correct his response to cats. However, I would trust him with my grandkids, not that I'd leave any dog alone with any child but none of my dogs have any issues with kids. I see no correlation between his issues with cats and babies. I don't have anything special to add to this discussion, except to say, I don't think Pan is a dog who's only option is PTS. But that's JMHO and without the room or ability to take on another dog at this time, it's not my privilage to effect the outcome of this dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBlaylock Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 Wow. You know, I came back just to give this - forum - another shot because I love talking about dogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoloRiver Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 If you don't have $200-$300 on hand for veterinary emergencies, which this may very well be, then you don't have enough on hand to properly care for a dog. Any emergency visit can easily run that much, and we are talking about a treatment that may mean the difference between life and death for a dog. No one would suggest that a dog with a broken leg not be treated because it costs too much. And trust me, I know what it's like to be in a tight financial situation. When I adopted Solo, I was living on a student stipend. Trust me, I wasn't exactly drowning in fun money. But people with literally no money to spare, well, they don't have computers or ISPs either. I moved some stuff around in my (very tight) budget and made it work. I am dubious about the backyard suggestion because once the dog is out there, what are the odds she'll ever come back in? She isn't going to get any better out there, and may very well start causing other problems. I don't leave my dogs in the yard unsupervised because you never know if a kid is going to let himself in to get the ball he hit over the fence, etc. I think as a stopgap measure it may make the OP feel better, but I'm not sure it's a long-term solution. The fact that the husband is not on board, however, is the biggest problem. You're right, if everyone isn't on board then it isn't going to work. I am very lucky that my husband understands how important Solo is to me, but there were some rocky spots as Solo does not deal with social changes very easily so I do understand how a dog with issues can be disruptive to a household. That said, as disruptive as a dog can be to a household, I feel like if we couldn't personally deal with that kind of disruption then we probably needed to sit back and think a bit before deciding to have children, who are infinitely more disruptive to a household (much less graduate school plans and novel-writing aspirations) -- and that's if everything goes right. I mean, if we couldn't get on the same page about how to deal with a dog, how on earth would we ever deal with teenagers? To me, it is really a matter of perspective, so I have presented mine. It probably could work, but if the motivation and commitment are not there then it definitely won't. In that case, the least the OP could do is find a solution that is humane to the dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnewe2 Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 If you're doing your own thing, and the dog happens to start growling at something, immidiatly correct it, stand up straight - good posture and inner calmness - and use some command, whether is "ahht! Psst! Schhhh! Zzzzzt!, whatever" something that will catch the dogs attention, and point your hand at it like "yeah I'm talking to you". She will most likely stop growling, but if she continues, walk towards her, if you are really calm and assertive through and through she will - in most cases - surrender. If you have to grab her scruff and pin her on her side and hold her there, do it. I know you said the trainer tried this and as soon as he let go she bit him four times...well, a good trainer would ave known it wasn't time to let go yet. It's not just about pinning her. True you have to keep her pinned in submission, but you need to be calm inside while doing it, and you need to speek nurtureingly to her, "it's okay, good girl" - but not in an overemotional baby-talk tone, or she will think somethings wrong, just calm and normal like you'd talk to your friend. When you feel that she starts calming down a little, looses your grip, keep at least one hand on her scruff or side to keep her from jumping up, and use the other hand to massage her, behind the head, on the side, etc, but avoidthe mouth and face for now. It may take 15 minutes, but she will eventualy calm down and you can release the pinning hand and just pet her, all the while talking calmly to her. Scratch her belly, etc. Back off and go about your business like nothing happened, she'll see you are a great leader who knows how to keep control and make her feel comfortable. So this is not you telling the OP to do these specfic things? Guess I'm confused. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBlaylock Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 "you" is a pronoun, used in place of a noun, i.e. instead of adressing some person, place, thing, or idea specificaly, "you" represents a generalized expression - in this case it is a variable representing the person in the scenario. If you read the top of that post I make it clear that I'm not suggesting she do this. Have you never given a scenario before? "You" doesn't always need to be defined specifically. I made it clear that in the given circumstance that the dog has overcome the biting issues and only growls, but is relatively under control now (as was implied by the OP) that - while I won't give a step by step suggestion method for her - this could serve as a scenario for a method that I would do or that could work for someone in that situation - "someone" defined by "you"... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurae Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 If the majority of the people you are communicating with are getting the same impression, attempting to continuously change the semantics of what you are saying is ineffective at best and disingenuous at worst. "I am no expert and I constantly refer to Cesar Millan on TV/I have a ton of experience/I don't have to be honest about my experience but I have helped a few dogs and have a whopping three well-behaved dogs myself to prove what a good trainer I am/the methods to fix the problems are simple/there is nothing simple about the method I described/yes I can help/no I can't help/she should do this/a generic someone should do this." It feels like you keep making radical definitive suggestions and then watering down your statements when challenged. It's hard to keep up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBlaylock Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 I do think dogs are simple, but the methods I use are very involving, and thus sort of complicated. It may seem like a contradiction at first, but not really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BorderCollieSam Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 Yeah, I'm 24. And? What does age have to do with anything? If you're implying that 24 year old can't possibly have earned life experience or know something that "older more experienced" folks don't, then I truly feel sorry for you - clearly you have a superficial understanding of the world. "Most cases" is not "all cases" - while many youths haven't "been through much" or earned their stripes, that doesn't mean that all youths fit that category. Nobody here knows me, so don't bring age into the game. If you walked one day in my shoes out of any given year in my life I garuntee you that age would not be a topic here, and experience would be a word non-exclusive to old folks. I was one of those who commented on your age with the following post:- 'I was surprised to see how young he was, just looked at his profile.......i had him down as a lot older for some reason......' What part of the above post do you consider offensive? You are 'assuming'.........and if you read it through once more you may just be able to see it from another angle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 JBlaylock Your methods may work for some dogs, but not all. And if you think they will work for all, then you haven't seen enough aggressive dogs yet Trust me your methods would not have worked for my fear aggressive dog. Yet now my fear agressive dog that wold not come out of her crate has gone on to get her CGC, therapy dog certification, has doen school demos, has traveled all over the country with me and more. I must have doen something right with her, and I never did any things you reccomend. Someone had already tried those with her and had totally shut her down. The methods you describe are a very, very good way to get bit seriously if you have a truly dominent dog who thinks he can win. Or a person who is not sure about what they're doing. There is a very good reason there is a warning at the begining of CM's program. Dog's are simple, the methods to work with them can be very envolving, and require constant adaptation, thus the methods aren't simple. In that case, why do you present your methods as the best/only way to go? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 I asked your credentials because some of the methods and dog training ideas you are presenting are outdated and seen as dangerous at best by people who have many years of experience with dogs and hold advanced degrees in animal behavior. There are people on these boards whose experience with dangerous dogs goes above and beyond working with a few cases. They have worked with hundreds, sometimes thousands of cases. If you don't want to meet any of us that is fine, but many members do meet in person. We know each other in our "real lives" and therefore know each others actual qualifications. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DebC Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 If you don't have $200-$300 on hand for veterinary emergencies, which this may very well be, then you don't have enough on hand to properly care for a dog. Ouch! that hurts - I think that Solo is an incredibly lucky dog to have such a dedicated and devoted partner. It's also wonderful that your husband is so understanding of your commitment. But this is not an emergency. This is not a broken leg. If it were, I have to believe that the OP would come up with the money somehow. And I also imagine that her husband would not be against spending the money for that kind of emergency. I also don't think that this is the same kind of disruption as having a child, I don't remember worrying about whether my child were going to hurt me or someone else. I also agree that this dog doesn't sound like a good candidate for re-homing. If the OP really believes they are at the end of things to try, then maybe it is time to let go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoloRiver Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 But this is not an emergency. How is this not an emergency? This dog is in imminent danger of losing her home or death by euthanasia. Behavioral crises can be just as emergent as broken bones, and are often more lethal for dogs. And you're right, it isn't the same kind of disruption as having a child -- in comparison, it's extremely minor. I don't consider my dogs to be my children, and I don't consider dogs and children to be equivalent entities. But the point is that since having dogs is not equivalent to having children, and that most people would agree that it is easier to have a dog than to have kids, making the argument that it is "too hard" to deal with a dog like this is not very compelling, if you are planning to have children. A valid argument would be, "I do not value my dog the same way that I would value a child." That is an entirely different argument from "we can't handle it" or "we have too much on our plates right now." This conversation reminds me a bit of my biology students who would complain that the coursework was too hard, and that they were worried that their grades would not get them into med school. I would answer, "If you think Bio 102 is too hard, how do you think you're going to make it through med school?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted April 14, 2009 Report Share Posted April 14, 2009 How is this not an emergency? This dog is in imminent danger of losing her home or death by euthanasia. Behavioral crises can be just as emergent as broken bones, and are often more lethal for dogs. Wow, that sums up the situation perfectly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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