Terrible Aggression - at my wit's end, please help!

[Eileen Stein]

What is (BEAT)? Sorry if I'm missing the obvious, brain's running slow today.

 

JBlaylock, I think she means "beat" like a beat in music -- a pause for the length of a beat. Right, pansmom?

 

I look at the "Be a good dog" as positive ENCOURAGEMENT not positive reinforcement because - well this may sound silly - but I think she knows the difference between "Good dog" and "Be a good dog" because they are sad in completely different tones.

 

I like the distinction you're making a lot, pansmom. I've pretty much gotten to the point where I refuse to use the standard conditioning terminology, even when talking to those who totally rely on it, because I find the four categories inadequate to describe all the nuances of the signals and conduct you can give to a dog. I've come to think it leads more to misunderstanding than to clarity when we try to force everything into +R, -R, +P and -P.

 

I know Pan would prefer to sleep with us but it's not safe for the cats and not fair for my husband to have to fear walking barefoot to the bathroom at night. Also, we don't have a spare room that I can sleep in with her, and my husband is already making enough sacrifices for me and Pan that I raelly don't want to ask him to not mind me sleeping in another room for two weeks. We're only married two years you know.

 

I totally agree with these reasons for not having her loose in your bedroom overnight! But is there any way you could move her crate into the bedroom at night? That might be a way to get the benefits of both bonding and safety. But if not, I don't think it's a big deal as far as building your relationship with her.

[bcnewe2]

Pan already knows the command "chill" which she loves because she knows something positive always comes from it (we taught it to her using tug of war

 

your post sounds great and seems you are making some huge strides. Sometimes when things slow down we think things might not be working but time is good. Sets things up for the long haul.

 

The above quote makes me wonder if that's really a chill command, Playing tug does not have a calming affect. For my dogs, they are excitedly waiting for more. Maybe you can revaluate if your chill command is making her calm or instead, happily excitedly waiting for the next thing. just something for you to think about.

 

The bedroom....Raven is my nervous dog. She also needs to feel safe by sleeping next to me. She sleeps on a pillow right next to my side of the bed. I always choose the side that gets the least traffic that way she's safely tucked into her coner and stays that way till I get up. Could you possibly put a crate right next to your side of the bed and make sure it's on the side that is less traffic?

 

I still say you are doing a bang up job. Please re-read all you've written and look at how much you've been albe to work with or through so far. It might suprise you!

 

I totally agree that these dogs are able to understand so much more than just commands. They even talk back and make us understand. Simply amazing!

[JBlaylock]

Pansmom. If you are correcting her for bad behavior, then only waiting a beats length (couple of seconds I guess from the definitions given above) before praising her for sitting still, odds are you are likely associating the entire experience with praise; which to her might register as: bad behavior + correction + good behavior for a couple of seconds = praise. I would suggest correcting her and waiting 30 or more seconds before praising her, and then only if she has remained calm and well behaved through those 30 seconds. Also, during those 30 seconds, try not to stay so focused on her, let her forget what happened and restart her internal awareness of what's going on, so that when praised, she forgot about the bad and only connects her current situation (i.e. sitting quietly) with the reward. The last thing you want to do is associate the "bad behavior" as part of the chain of events leading to reward.

[Freeman 101]

I am not a behaviorist. I am a person with a wacky dog who has a background in biology and has worked on a project studying the genetics of anxiety-related behaviors in dogs, including noise phobias and fear aggression (see link in .sig). I still think this dog should be seen by a behaviorist, but some simple things that PM can do would introduce some more structure into Pan's life and help increase the trust between them.

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I agree. Great post with lots of helpful information.

[pansmom]

What is (BEAT)? Sorry if I'm missing the obvious, brain's running slow today.

 

It means pause. Sorry, it's screen/dramatic writing lingo. Ha, ha.

[pansmom]

JBlaylock, I think she means "beat" like a beat in music -- a pause for the length of a beat. Right, pansmom?

I like the distinction you're making a lot, pansmom. I've pretty much gotten to the point where I refuse to use the standard conditioning terminology, even when talking to those who totally rely on it, because I find the four categories inadequate to describe all the nuances of the signals and conduct you can give to a dog. I've come to think it leads more to misunderstanding than to clarity when we try to force everything into +R, -R, +P and -P.

I totally agree with these reasons for not having her loose in your bedroom overnight! But is there any way you could move her crate into the bedroom at night? That might be a way to get the benefits of both bonding and safety. But if not, I don't think it's a big deal as far as building your relationship with her.

 

She can't have a crate because she protects it FIERCELY. She has a bad denning problem. I mean, ok, true, we put the crate up months ago. But I really don't feel like getting it down out of the attic and fighting over it again. I'd rather she just didn't have anyplace to call her own. Anyway I think she'd rather sleep in the kitchen for now and be free to stretch out than be cooped up in her kennel. Before we put the kennel up, she was doing this weird thing, half protecting the place fiercely during the day, and half refusing to go in at night when we told her to! It was a constant source of conflict. NOT WORTH IT. The kitchen is close to the bedroom anyhow.

[JBlaylock]

It means pause. Sorry, it's screen/dramatic writing lingo. Ha, ha.

 

okay, but how long a pause? See my last response: these are just my thoughts based off of what it sounds like.

 

Pansmom. If you are correcting her for bad behavior, then only waiting a beats length (couple of seconds I guess from the definitions given above) before praising her for sitting still, odds are you are likely associating the entire experience with praise; which to her might register as: bad behavior + correction + good behavior for a couple of seconds = praise. I would suggest correcting her and waiting 30 or more seconds before praising her, and then only if she has remained calm and well behaved through those 30 seconds. Also, during those 30 seconds, try not to stay so focused on her, let her forget what happened and restart her internal awareness of what's going on, so that when praised, she forgot about the bad and only connects her current situation (i.e. sitting quietly) with the reward. The last thing you want to do is associate the "bad behavior" as part of the chain of events leading to reward.

[pansmom]

@ BCNEWE2 -

 

Re: chill - We made her do chill for longer and longer and STARTED with tug of war but then used it in other situations. I think she knows it means sit quiet and wait. Sometimes the reward is food, other times it's just praise, other times it's something active like tug of war or hide and seek. But she lays down on her side and her posture relaxes - she is not on her haunches ready to jump up. She is calm. She will even do it outdoors. Only time it doesn't work is if she's already TOTALLY over threshold (ie barking at a dog in the front yard out the window).

 

Re: crate - Don't want to use a crate. It's a trigger. One of the first and oldest ones. See earlier post. I'll leave her in the kitchen until she is reliable enough for the bedroom.

 

@ JBLAYLOCK -

 

I will try stretching out the positive reinforcement longer away from the negative behavior - for everything. That makes sense, especially since she seems to be able to stay focused on something for quite some time, longer than dogs are supposed to as far as I can tell (for example even when she was a puppy when she was learning sit at training, I would tell her to sit and then get distracted and look down two minutes later she still wasn't sitting and then I'd say "what did I tell you to do?" and she'd sit. This would really impress the other dog mamas). So yeah. It will probably take me a few days to break MY habits but I think I will say "No ma'am, chill" quickly and then when she settles down - and stays settled down - a minute later I will praise her. Maybe that will help. Wouldn't it suck if she was CHAINING BAD WITH POSITIVE REINFORCEMENT!!!! Yikes!

[JBlaylock]

Border Collies sure are smart. That's funny that she understood "what did I tell you to do?" I can relate. Mine are just like that too, they understand the most random things, and leave me scratching my head.

[beachdogz]

OTOH, if the dogs you've had experience with were not border collies from working breeders, then the time when they left their litters might tend to be reflective of the overall quality of the breeder/breeding. I would guess that the more "responsible" pet and sport breeders keep their pups the longest, and also put more effort into breeding and nurture. The "for profit" breeders would be more inclined to get rid of the pups asap, and probably are more likely to be indifferent to other quality considerations in their breeding and puppy care.

 

That's a good point. It would be true that most, if not all, would be from breeders who had no regard for quality, temperment, or well-being, and so that would also be a big factor.

[Eileen Stein]

She can't have a crate because she protects it FIERCELY. She has a bad denning problem. I mean, ok, true, we put the crate up months ago. But I really don't feel like getting it down out of the attic and fighting over it again. I'd rather she just didn't have anyplace to call her own.

 

Duh!! Of course, I remember that now. That's how this all started, 15 pages ago. Sorry!

[Eileen Stein]

I am not a behaviorist. I am a person with a wacky dog who has a background in biology and has worked on a project studying the genetics of anxiety-related behaviors in dogs, including noise phobias and fear aggression

 

Well, he may be wacky but at least he's a high achiever!

 

Sorry, couldn't resist . . .

[pansmom]

Well, he may be wacky but at least he's a high achiever!

 

Sorry, couldn't resist . . .

 

HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Misplaced modifier!

(Any guesses on what subject I teach? haha)

[nancy in AZ]

Pansmom. If you are correcting her for bad behavior, then only waiting a beats length (couple of seconds I guess from the definitions given above) before praising her for sitting still, odds are you are likely associating the entire experience with praise; which to her might register as: bad behavior + correction + good behavior for a couple of seconds = praise. I would suggest correcting her and waiting 30 or more seconds before praising her

 

Nope--This is not how one would most effectively utilize operant conditioning. The reward should instantly follow the desired behavior. Just as in using negative reinforcement the pressure should be instantly removed upon eliciting the desired behavior. By waiting 30 seconds you are compromising the clarity that comes from the immediate association of the behavior and the reward.

[Freeman 101]

I've pretty much gotten to the point where I refuse to use the standard conditioning terminology, even when talking to those who totally rely on it, because I find the four categories inadequate to describe all the nuances of the signals and conduct you can give to a dog. I've come to think it leads more to misunderstanding than to clarity when we try to force everything into +R, -R, +P and -P.

-------------------------------------------

 

I think what can be confusing is that these don't always operate alone. For instance positive punishment and negative reinforcement often operate together. What can make this even more confusing is that operant conditioning (+R, -R, +P and -P) and classical conditioning (associative learning) are often working together.

 

The terminology is often misused, and i think this is what makes it even more confusing. I hear people state that they reward their dogs for desired behavior, and state that they are using positive reinforcement, however, if the result was not an increase in desired behavior then this was really not +R. The dog's behavior is really what decides how the behavior was operating. On the reverse, If an owner is using a prong collar for leash pulling and walking nicely on leash does not increase then negative reinforcement dig not occur. Again, the consequence decides.

 

 

I love Pamela Reid's book "Excel-erated Learning. Explaining in plain English how dogs learn and how best to teach them." Yes, it does use the terminology, but still a great book to me. Karen Pryor's book "Don't Shoot the Dog" is also great and an easier read. This book was actually required reading in one of my Psychology classes.

 

 

I still think we need terminology that we can all agree on. I'm a very literal person and I become confused with vague or non-specific terms. That's acutally why the Dog Whisperer drives me crazy; he uses terminology that really does not have specific meaning (and least not to me).

[Eileen Stein]

I think what can be confusing is that these don't always operate alone. For instance positive punishment and negative reinforcement often operate together. What can make this even more confusing is that operant conditioning (+R, -R, +P and -P) and classical conditioning (associative learning) are often working together.

 

I certainly understand that, and I've read Karen Pryor and a number of other dog-training books that explain and are based on principles of operant and classical conditioning. I think I understand the concepts, but I would say that the fact that the terminology is so often misused (which it certainly is) is some indication that it isn't that all that effective as a mode of communication. If it made the concepts more understandable, they would be better understood.

 

I hear people state that they reward their dogs for desired behavior, and state that they are using positive reinforcement, however, if the result was not an increase in desired behavior then this was really not +R. The dog's behavior is really what decides how the behavior was operating.

 

But that is defining any possible usefulness of the concept out of existence, IMO. If you have to wait to see the consequences of your action to decide whether it was positive reinforcement, in what sense can you say, "Give your dog some positive reinforcement"? OTOH, if you give your dog a treat to reward desired behavior, and the dog eats it with obvious relish, but there is no increase in the desired behavior, then wouldn't it make more sense to say that positive reinforcement was not effective in training this behavior (heresy, I know!) than to say a delicious treat timely administered is not positive reinforcement after all?

 

On the reverse, If an owner is using a prong collar for leash pulling and walking nicely on leash does not increase then negative reinforcement dig not occur. Again, the consequence decides.

 

Using a prong collar for leash pulling is a good example of +P and -R operating together, isn't it? Or rather it would be, except that it turns out that the dog's having his neck pronged when he pulls and released when he stops pulling is neither +P nor -R, because the pulling behavior didn't decrease. Don't you see that this borders on a tautology? If any given training move can either be +P or not +P depending on how it turns out, then the concept is not very helpful -- it's only useful retrospectively and not prospectively.

 

But that isn't why I decided to refuse to use this terminology anymore. I made that decision because I think it often obscures what's going on, rather than elucidating it. For example, if my dog starts to do something I don't want him to do, I will give him a verbal correction like "Hey" or "Ahhp." Because he knows that "Hey" or "Ahhp" means he shouldn't do that, he will stop (usually ), and after a couple of repetitions he will get the idea that he's not supposed to do that at all, ever, and the behavior will decrease, usually to the point of nonexistence. So you'd say that's positive punishment, right, because the behavior decreased? But I'm simply not willing to use the term "punishment" to describe this, because the connotations of the word "punishment" as generally used in our society inevitably creep into how the word is perceived. Punishment, even in theory, is supposed to be aversive, and I don't believe my "Ahhp" works because it's aversive. It works because through it I am communicating to the dog that this is something he shouldn't do, rather than because through it I've made him suffer in some way for the behavior or created an unpleasant association with the behavior. I feel the same way about the OP's encouragement "Be a good dog" to Pan. If it increases the good behavior you'd say it's +R, but I wouldn't, because I don't think it's operating as a reward mechanism. It's operating as a communication mechanism, pure and simple.

[Flamincomet]

Nope--This is not how one would most effectively utilize operant conditioning. The reward should instantly follow the desired behavior. Just as in using negative reinforcement the pressure should be instantly removed upon eliciting the desired behavior. By waiting 30 seconds you are compromising the clarity that comes from the immediate association of the behavior and the reward.

 

I agree totally. If you wait 30 seconds and then praise her, she maybe forget what it is you are praising her for. Is it for sitting quietly or because she stopped growling/lip curling? If you correct her behavior for growling/lip curling* and she stops, she needs a reward IMMEDIATELY. You need to be extremely clear to her that that RIGHT there, is exactly the behavior that you want.

 

*I'm not necessarily saying you should, I think you need to talk to someone experienced who is actually there, so you know what Pan is trying to accomplish with that behavior.

 

And I'd also like to add, that following confrontational Cesar Milan style advice was a huge factor in me actually being bitten by my dog. IMO, techniques like that can be extremely dangerous and are best left to the professionals. This includes grabbing and holding the muzzle as a correction while looking straight into the already aroused dog's eyes. All it would take is one slip and she can get you right on the wrist, arm or face.

 

JMHO and personal experience.

 

Autumn

[pansmom]

But that isn't why I decided to refuse to use this terminology anymore. I made that decision because I think it often obscures what's going on, rather than elucidating it.

 

Well, I can say that I have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA WHAT EITHER OF YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.

+P, -R, it's like DOG ALGEBRA!

No, seriously, thoug, sorry, I've never read those symbols explained.

(But please, don't try to explain them! As previously hinted, I am an ENGLISH instructor!)

[Eileen Stein]

Well, I can say that I have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA WHAT EITHER OF YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.

+P, -R, it's like DOG ALGEBRA!

No, seriously, thoug, sorry, I've never read those symbols explained.

(But please, don't try to explain them! As previously hinted, I am an ENGLISH instructor!)

 

Well, I won't explain them, but I'll write them in "longhand" because I have math issues too:

 

+R = positive reinforcement

-R = negative reinforcement

+P = positive punishment

-P = negative punishment

 

But if you take my advice you'll ignore the whole thing.

[SoloRiver]

Ha -- good catch. Well, he is a high achiever: he managed to pass the CGC test on the first try. That is still our crowning achievement. Well, that and he's made it to the age of 10 (almost -- he'll be 10 on Cinco de Mayo). If you'd met Solo when I first got him you'd understand why this is a big deal.

 

I teach college biology and anthropology, and do scientific editing on the side, and was dealing with the peak of Solo's issues while I was trying to finish my PhD while also teaching 3+ labs a week in biology and designing my own courses in anthropology, and then I dealt with him in a new city while working on a postdoc in neurogenetics and living with two other dogs and during that time I also raised a puppy and also, I lived alone until about a year ago so everything was all on me. I am saying this so that you know that I know what it's like to be strapped for time, but understand that whatever medical treatment you do pursue for Pan (meds, whatever) will not help without the concomitant behavior mod.

 

I would hate for you to lose the ground you've gained with her through lots of hard work so although you have little time, you HAVE to make time. That's the thing about these dogs, they remain works in progress and if you let up, they WILL backslide. Eventually it'll get easier but it can take months or years of the full court press to get there. In my case it was ultimately very, very rewarding -- I am totally in love with my dog -- but it has also been a lot of work, and it will continue to be work as long as Solo is in my life. In my opinion we've reached the light at the end of the tunnel, and Solo is pretty much unremarkable now except in specific situations. But it was a long, long tunnel.

 

I am not trying to discourage you, and I think you are up to the challenge, but this is reality.

[pansmom]

I agree totally. If you wait 30 seconds and then praise her, she maybe forget what it is you are praising her for. Is it for sitting quietly or because she stopped growling/lip curling? If you correct her behavior for growling/lip curling* and she stops, she needs a reward IMMEDIATELY. You need to be extremely clear to her that that RIGHT there, is exactly the behavior that you want.

 

*I'm not necessarily saying you should, I think you need to talk to someone experienced who is actually there, so you know what Pan is trying to accomplish with that behavior.

 

And I'd also like to add, that following confrontational Cesar Milan style advice was a huge factor in me actually being bitten by my dog. IMO, techniques like that can be extremely dangerous and are best left to the professionals. This includes grabbing and holding the muzzle as a correction while looking straight into the already aroused dog's eyes. All it would take is one slip and she can get you right on the wrist, arm or face.

 

JMHO and personal experience.

 

Autumn

 

Oh, I don't "grab" her muzzle, ever, if she's "aroused." It's hard to explain the snout thing... it's something I also use as affection, her tail will wag for it in non-corrective situations... it's gentle. Usually she doesn't mind, we've done it since she was a puppy so she is used to it. That's why the other morning was so weird. But it was the day after the vet and I was restraining her slightly with my hand; I'm just not going to do that again. I do think she is starting to trust me more since I've gotten back. I think I am just going to avoid any and all trigger situations so I don't have to worry about the lip curl until I can film it for a professional (sorry people, no way to film anything, I don't own a videocamera). But today and yesteday she's been fine happily... She's very well adjusted seeming. Slightly more trusting. I have been trying to touch her less and less in negative ways. I worry not about the snout thing, but that some of the other ways we were told to "correct" her have been too rough for such a sensitive dog (touching her back when she's freaked out, raising volume of voice, using "wolf mouth"). I'm worried that's why she doesn't trust us anymore. I'm worried her behavior escalated as much as it did because we were told to match her aggression with assertion and it scared her, perhaps causing that constant growling, maybe even the nightmares. But she seems less scared now honestly. And she seems more predictable. Since I got back from my trip all I've had to do is the snout thing and she is being a lot more friendly with me, laying at my feet constantly without ever growling or seeming to feel threatened (yet anyway, it's only been 4 days). So let's hope this keeps working.

 

As for the waiting 30 seconds thing, interestingly, I tried it with her and it seems to be working. Here's why I say that: as previously mentioned she has always had a problem with leash biting when we go cycling, and during the past few months it's been pretty predictable that she'll bite the leash in situations where she (or I) get(s) nervous: anytime we turn into the street, anytime we cross a busy intersection, anytime we pass a barking dog. I've tried a lot of things: spraying lysol on the Leash, chili pepper, doing quick leash jerks, stopping or slowing down when she does it, ignoring it, running with a muzzle at first and then taking it off later... but none of these things has changed the behavior, only stopping it temporarily after it starts and then later it'll start back up again - no decreasing of frequency really. What I've settled into doing lately is just saying "No ma'am," when she does it, and stopping the bike until she stops. And then when she stops IMMEDIATELY saying "good dog." But this time I tried just saying "No" when she did it and then we she stopped saying NOTHING and just ignoring her until 30 seconds later when she is focused on running and honestly I think that works better. Because she bit the leash a lot less today. And she didn't keep doing it over and over like she often does. I'll keep trying it and we'll see but honestly I think she might have been repeating the ENTIRE cycle because she is smart enough to know if she bites it again and then stops she'll get attention again, whereas this way the biting has completely left her mind by the time she is praised because she has had to focus on trying to keep being good for a while (running even with the bike and watching me) to get the praise, instead of getting it immediately. Anyway that's my theory. We'll see if it continues to work. If this actually works I can apply this in a lot of other areas and probably get some pretty good results. We'll see.

[pansmom]

Ha -- good catch. Well, he is a high achiever: he managed to pass the CGC test on the first try. That is still our crowning achievement. Well, that and he's made it to the age of 10 (almost -- he'll be 10 on Cinco de Mayo). If you'd met Solo when I first got him you'd understand why this is a big deal.

 

I teach college biology and anthropology, and do scientific editing on the side, and was dealing with the peak of Solo's issues while I was trying to finish my PhD while also teaching 3+ labs a week in biology and designing my own courses in anthropology, and then I dealt with him in a new city while working on a postdoc in neurogenetics and living with two other dogs and during that time I also raised a puppy and also, I lived alone until about a year ago so everything was all on me. I am saying this so that you know that I know what it's like to be strapped for time, but understand that whatever medical treatment you do pursue for Pan (meds, whatever) will not help without the concomitant behavior mod.

 

I would hate for you to lose the ground you've gained with her through lots of hard work so although you have little time, you HAVE to make time. That's the thing about these dogs, they remain works in progress and if you let up, they WILL backslide. Eventually it'll get easier but it can take months or years of the full court press to get there. In my case it was ultimately very, very rewarding -- I am totally in love with my dog -- but it has also been a lot of work, and it will continue to be work as long as Solo is in my life. In my opinion we've reached the light at the end of the tunnel, and Solo is pretty much unremarkable now except in specific situations. But it was a long, long tunnel.

 

I am not trying to discourage you, and I think you are up to the challenge, but this is reality.

 

I know the medication isn't a panacea.

I've been on meds myself. The meds by themselves do very little.

What really helped me, when I was on them, years ago, was the therapy and self-reflection.

And it took me five years of BOTH meds and therapy/reflection to be able to live happily without either.

I'm looking at it like behavior mod = therapy and self-reflection for dogs.

I just would like something to help along the behavior mod.

I think the meds will do that.

[Eileen Stein]

As for the waiting 30 seconds thing, interestingly, I tried it with her and it seems to be working. . . . We'll see if it continues to work. If this actually works I can apply this in a lot of other areas and probably get some pretty good results. We'll see.

 

Sounds good. I'm a big believer in watching the dog and being guided by her reactions more than by theory.

[Alaska]

Just got back and felt I should respond to Caroline’s question about my last, rather lengthy post:

 

I had not contributed to this thread, though I read it with great interest, but this post just stunned me. I know that I have just cherry picked your suggestions, Alaska, but do you really mean to tell Pansmom that growling, snarling, and biting are "good news" and "normal communication" between dogs and their owners? In my home, it would be VERY BAD if one of my dog snarled at me.

Yes, mine too.

 

But we are not talking about your dogs or my dogs. We are talking about Pan, a dog who is clearly not well-adjusted, with an owner that only two weeks ago was “at her wits end” because of aggressive behavior that included multiple incidents involving bites of multiple individuals of multiple species. And at least some of those times, the owner did not recognize any warning signs from the dog before the bite. In her first post, Pansmom wrote that Pan “bites pretty hard, and there is rarely a warning growl. It happens all at once”. In another post a bit later, she wrote. “ANYTHING new it seems sets her off. And sometimes we have no idea what has done it.”

 

In that specific context, I regard it as relatively good news that in the most recent (snout-holding) incident: (1) there was what appears to be an identifiable trigger (snout holding); (2) the dog did not at any point bite, or even attempt to bite; (3) the dog attempted to communicate through a non-violent method (lip curl); and (4) when that didn’t work, the dog chose to try another method of non-violent communication (growl). Recognizing these facts gives Pansmom something to work with, e.g. she can choose to avoid known triggers, she can choose to respond to warning signals by giving Pan some space, etc.

 

We would all like to have dogs who are “perfect” or at least “well behaved”, and many of us do. A few of these dogs just turned out that way, many of them are the product of one form of training or another that took a short or long time, and some dogs require substantially more training at a higher level of sophistication, perhaps some drugs, and who knows what else. Pan probably falls in this last category (or will eventually ). My comment was meant to encourage Pansmom to recognize that this incident was not so bad on the scale of aggressive incidents she has already seen from this dog. And again, I think it’s also good news in the sense that facts of this incident suggest relatively easy ways Pansmom can go about defusing this sort of situation. The incidents involving biting, especially when Pansmom couldn’t see any trigger, are IMO the bad news and the ones she needs to do the hard thinking about, not this.

 

I did not meant to suggest that I think it’s normal for a well-adjusted dog to respond to minor inconveniences with strong signals like growling and teeth-baring. What I did intend to convey was that “let go of my snout” would be a normal interpretation of those canine signals in this context. When I suggested acquiescing to the dog’s “reasonable request”, what I meant was that it seemed reasonable for Pan to want her snout to be released in this context.

 

A non-reasonable request, in my eyes, would be something like “Let go of my snout so I can chase that cat through traffic!” or “Let go of my snout so I can attack that baby!”

 

Pansmom, if you’d still like to hear my answers to your questions in your post immediately after Caroline’s, just say so. I think this post is long enough as is. .

[BorderCollieSam]

I found this to be a most insightful response. Although I don't think it would necessarily apply to this situation, since the OP has lived with the dog since it was 5 weeks old, I still believe it is a very insightful and worthwhile theory...reminds me of the Helen Keller story, but with dogs. It is something I will tuck into the recesses of my mind for the future....probably very helpful when bringing home a rescue or re-homed dog. Thank you, BorderCollieSam.

 

No problem, this is just what i would do naturally, a little like having a sick member of your family i suppose.....