Terrible Aggression - at my wit's end, please help!

[Dixie_Girl]

If your dog is already as fearful as you say, moving her to a secluded place, out in the middle of no where, with people who aren't hers, is only going to escalate that fear. I live pretty secluded. I am surrounded by acres and miles of woods. My Jackson had excellent recall. But one day when my grandson had him down in the woods, my grandson let his attention slip for just a bit, and Jackson was gone! He ended up spending the night in the woods, and the next day happened upon a home. They called the vet on his tags who called me. The people didn't pen him or tie him and by the time I got there, (a mile from home)he was gone again. Luckily, he came back that afternoon and they held him till I got him. The woods are beautiful, till you are looking for a lost dog in them. For months after we got him back, he had terrible nightmares. It was very sad and frightening. I have no idea what he went through in the woods that night. But it must have been scary for him. Anything could have happened to him. When the people cleared the trees in back of us, I was walking the dogs out there and found a collar from a hunting dog. Still buckled. Did it slip off, or did the dog get hung up and died there? Who knows. I would rather let the vet give my dog a peaceful forever sleep, than have him go through that kind of death. There are plenty of well bred, high prey, workaholic dogs that live in apartments in city's just fine. Your dog is not pining for wide open spaces nor work with stock. He is pining for relief. Either commit to a vet behaviourist, or give him a final sleep relief.

[vjp]

You ask about rehoming her "in the country"

 

As I see it you have 3 options - keep the dog and fix her (if possible), keep the dog and manage her strictly (difficult), or euthanize her. Anything else is morally and ethically not acceptable in my book.

 

I'm very sorry for the dog and for you. There are no easy answers.

 

I would add a 4th option: be completely honest and see if someone else has the patience and/or money to rehabilitate her.

[Lenajo]

I would add a 4th option: be completely honest and see if someone else has the patience and/or money to rehabilitate her.

 

After many years in dogs, I have to say people rarely take you completely seriously when you tell them about an aggresive or fearful dog. Even dog people are apt to say "oh, it'll be all right, dogs like me!"

 

Even if you get a lawyer drawn up and signed liablity waiver with the new home, that just means the opposing lawyer will have grounds to say you knew about the aggression and understated it. This is why Rescue groups will only rarely consider taking on a known biter. In this sue happy society you cannot risk the lives of the many other dogs that haven't bitten that you can save, your family's income or your home on placing a dog like this.

 

I've euthanized a biter myself in the past - a non BC working breed female who at 18 months was a danger to everyone around her. Because she was "well bred" I got a lot of emotional flack about it from that community. The other pups, the whole line I found out later, were "sharp" but "in good hands they were fine" (indicating mine were not "good hands" - does this sound familiar?). And perhaps they weren't, but after a near miss incident with myself followed by another with my vet's young daughter I chose to end it.

 

6 months later I head that a littermate to her dam chose to leave her sheep-work and put a 12 year old in the dirt with intent to kill. Why? the kid *walked* by the arena. Some dogs, some bloodlines, are not meant to be on this earth. Rehome a known human biter? Sorry, I can't agree with it. Help the dog yourself, or end it humanely before someone else pays the price.

[Freeman 101]

I think the plan right now is to gradually move her to being an outside dog in the short term (we're working on that today--she is still excited every time I say "outside" so I don't think she's unhappy), but my husband still wants to send her to the friends'.

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I'm sorry, but I really don't feel these are good solutions. I haven't read the initial posts to know how severe the bites were, but what about adjusting her to a basket muzzle?

[Soda-pop]

After many years in dogs, I have to say people rarely take you completely seriously when you tell them about an aggresive or fearful dog. Even dog people are apt to say "oh, it'll be all right, dogs like me!"

 

Oh yes. We get this a lot. "Oh, all she needs is love" Or "oh, poor thing, she just needs to know she's safe" or "oh, it's not that bad..."

 

I wouldn't try to rehome her.

[LazyGRanch]

I mean, she starts barking in this frenzied scary aggressive way (not a high pitched fun play bark but a worried series of many barks, close together, with a growly tone), she may go rigid, ears back, and if you move toward her or in any way too fast she will growl or snarl (showing teeth) OR very occasionally if she really feels scared or trapped (like if it is a super new super strange sound or if you move toward her in such a way that it would be hard for her to get past you--for example, one of the front windows is kind of a nook and if she is at the window looking out and you go toward her at all she will feel trapped) she will turn and bite. The bites are barely puncture wounds. They break the skin, but just barely, she is definitely not TRYING to hurt us. But she is really freaked out. That's why it feels like an apology when she licks, it's almost like what have I done.

 

See it just happened again, the cat was playing with the bottom of the stove (for the first time in months) and she freaked out and started doing the low growly repeat-bark. Aggression like this not directed at us is a fairly common thing. This was fairly mild so I didn't need the spray gun or anything. I just said SHHHT and got up and walked over to the stove, had her go into a down stay a few feet away, and threw her food every time I did the same thing with my feet. After about five repetitions with treats I desensitized her to it. She learned if she didn't bark she got a treat. Now she's fine with it.

 

There are a few exceptions to this pattern. The first three are resource guarding related (which she doesn't do anymore), and another is half resource guarding half REALLY OVER THRESHOLDness when she went to intermediate training and basically got kicked out and told she could only have one-on-one sessions because she bit someone. But I will admit that after her freaking out over a pig's ear I was petrified when the trainer suggested we let strangers pet Pan. And Pan was looking at me during the meet and greet and she let the first person pet her very nicely (but I trusted her and Pan already knew her from the dog park), but the second person (whom I didn't know and whom I was petrified of Pan biting) she bit. But she was looking at me the whole time and I managed this very poorly because I *gave* her over to the trainer and was standing six feet away looking on trying not to look scared but so nervous I was even forgetting to praise her so... it was a bad situation. And she didn't bite that guy very hard either. He just shrugged it off. And on the third one-on-one session at the store, the trainer encouraged her to wander PetSmart on a long leash and she started approaching strangers and being very friendly. But that night when she came home she was nervous and that was the last time she bit me, one and a half weeks ago, at the window, when the FedEx guy came to drop something behind our screen door and I approached her to touch her back and tell her to settle down.

I think so too, she's not TERRIBLE, really she isn't. She's just VERY spooky. The thing is she NEVER does this out of doors, when she's off leash or on a long leash (like a twenty foot training leash). Then she is confident. But indoors, that's another story. My husband simply won't trust her around kids. Also he knows how much work she will require as an indoor dog, and he knows I won't have time for that and children... Especially since I work, and he is really busy with his studies, only one year into a Master's program and planning to get his PhD...

 

I still plan to try to get her bloodwork done. But tonight, an old family friend's father offered to take her on at his farm in Mississippi, where there are no children (except when the old family friend visits, at which point the dogs can be put up if they're around). He loves dogs, and frequently adopts neglected or abandoned animals. She would be an outdoor dog, but we are considering it. She could roam freely and hunt squirrels in the forest (a favorite pastime in the backyard). She wouldn't even be in a fence. (This is a secluded farm in a wooded area, miles away from the nearest gas station, on a secluded country road. There are goats and chickens and pigs. The goats roam free.) Also, he just adopted two abandoned dogs, so she would have company and feel like she is part of a pack. I honestly think once she got over missing us - so heartbreaking because I honestly think she would, she whines when we leave and she isn't allowed to come with us - she would be happier, emotionally, to be free. We are thinking about taking her there in a couple of weeks to see how she likes it there. They suggested we just leave her there if she is okay, but I think I would want to introduce her to them first and bring her home and do that a couple times so I would know she felt comfortable there and liked the people and other dogs (she will get along with other dogs if introduced to them properly). I feel like if we didn't do that she might just run away. And I think maybe if we do this we should reintroduce her crate before then and bring that with us... I don't know. How to teach her this is her new home? God this is sad.

 

Anybody have experience with this kind of thing? I'd prefer taking her to a family that had experience with trying to cure fear aggression, but I definitely think this option is better than PTS. She is at heart such a sweetie. And so smart. I really don't want to do this but working with her takes at least three hours of my day, every day, and I am constantly wanting her to be something she isn't: a cuddly dog I can pet without fear that a noise or something else I can't control (or even overpetting or leaning over her the wrong way) will cause her to growl, a dog that will be okay around kids. And I know some people have said they're not sure rehoming is ethical in this case, but I don't really believe as an outdoor dog at a place with no kids she would put anyone in danger. She never like just runs at people she doesn't know to attack them. It's not in her nature. It's more in her nature to run up and bring you a stick to throw for her... Or lick you... Or roll over on her back... Or, when she's not confined indoors, or on a leash, to run away!

 

Pansmom, have you ever read any books by Patricia McConnell? In one of her books (I think it's the Other End of the Leash), she works with a year old BC who gets himself so frenzied, agitated, and "hot" about something (a dog walking by his house, etc), that if anyone goes to (gently) remove him from the situation, he turns and bites. Not just a snap, or a nip, but a series of long, hard bites up the arm.

If it were my dog, I would re-consider turning her over to a "farm, with room to run". (I have an atheltic 3 1/2 y/o GSD and a papillon with the personal space of a LGD living with me in a two room apartment; we make it work). Even if she's "pretty good" about staying on his property, what if she chases something into the woods or OFF the property and gets shot or HBC? My road is pretty desolate, but we've lost some barn cats to cars, hit, right in front of the house. Cops don't patrol back roads as well as they do busy roads, and the idiots that speed down our road at 80mph at 2:00AM are probably more than I think.

If she were to chase something off the property, and get turned around, she might not have the navigational abilities to get herself back to where she ought to be.

I've never had to do this (and I hope I never do), but if a stray dog were chasing and/or threatening my horses, cats, or dogs, I wouldn't hesitate to shoot it on sight...

[BorderCollieSam]

Sorry to hear what you are going through.......

 

We were out on a family bike ride the other day (without my Sam ) and stopped to speak to a couple with two dogs, one of which was a long haired tri colour Border Collie.

 

The Collie was about 8 years old, and the woman said she had the dog castrated when he was young due to him being inter-bred and highly agressive, she claims it calmed him down and cured his aggression.....

 

My daughter (4 years old) asked if she could stroke him, she was stroking him whilst we were all talking and all of a sudden the dog went for my daughter, my daughter screamed and was crying her eyes out, she ended up with a large bruised bit on her arm surrounded by puncture wounds.....

 

The dog was standing there snarling, lips up showing gums and teeth, it truly wasn't cured and imo should be muzzled when in public.

 

Also, years ago when i was at home we had a Rough Collie/Lassie type, he had been aggressive since a pup and quite often brought my dad to the floor on his knees by attacking/lunging at him and biting his manhood......This continued until he was two years old, then one day he started walking into things around the house like he was drunk, this continued for about 3 hours and he then started foaming and dripping from the mouth, he looked like he had rabies, we had to telephone a vet and arrange for a house call, the vey diagnosed epilepsy and said he was having a fit, he may have 1 fit per day, 1 per month, 1 per year, no telling, however he never came out of the fit, and two days leter was PTS.......

 

I sincerely hope your dog isn't experiencing the early signs of what we went through.....

[sixx]

Check out Pamela Dennison. She rehabilitates aggressive dogs. She is in NJ. Pretty far from you, but it wouldn't hurt to email her. Maybe she can help you, or knows someone in your area. Also, she has a book called "bringing light to shadow" It's about an aggressive bc she rehabilitated. The dog was absolutely crazy and had attacked and bit many of her friends. It's a day to day diary with good insight, and also explains the mistakes she made in the process. She stuck it out though, and Shadow is now an amazing dog and passed his canine good citizen test. I think she's a miracle worker... ha

 

http://www.positivedogs.com/

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

Good call sixx.

 

There is also a really good yahoo group;

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Pos-4-ReactiveDogs/

She posts there about Shadow once in a while. She's done wonders for him. That book was a HUGE inspiration for me. And that group is a GREAT resource for reactive dogs, as is http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/shy-k9s/ , but I think the first one would be of more use for this situation. That is any future training is going to happen with this dog.

[JBlaylock]

JBlaylock,

 

Are you trying to say that a dog can never have psychological issues? If so, what is that statement based on? I'm not sure whay you mean by "exclusively human psychological issues." Are you saying medical or brain chemistry issues can never be the cause of aggression in a dog? Are you saying that every case of aggression is simple and if the owners can't fix it it's just because they don't know what to do?

 

I'm also wondering what you would do to help a dog overcome fear issues, especially when (as it sounds here) the fear pops up out of the blue and there are no predictable triggers.

 

What I mean by "exclusively human psychological issues" is not that dog's don't have psyc issues, only that their psyc is way different than ours, there are certain psyc issues that are exclusively human, and too often do people associate these human issues with dog issues, when in reality the dog's psyc is different and its psyc issues are unrelated to ours. Fear in a dog is not the same as fear in a human, totaly different basis and manifestation. Dog's don't have imaginations, for one thing, and a dog's fear is based off of natural recognition of pack placement, hierarchy, survival, approval, dissaproval, etc... Sometimes these can become overexadurated in a dog, maybe even chemically embalanced, but they always have the same roots and definitions, and I strongly believe there is not a dog that cannot be helped to overcome these issues and live a happy life. That's my belief.

 

The answer to how you would help it overcome these fear issues will be meaningless out of context. What I mean is, I can list it here, but it's not a step by step science, it's more an art, you have to adjust to the particular dog. Things like proper body language, inner calmness, assertive dominance, approachableness, peace, "looseness", confidence, etc. are not things that can be posted into a recipe for "curing" the dog, but they are all things that would be needed in any method I'd list. So, I could do my best to list a "if this happens: do this" method, but unless the person truly has all of these qulities at the time, the method wouldn't work, and unless the person has the experience to adjust on the spot to a different issue, then no method would work.

 

To the original poster: I really hope you don't take any of this as me attacking you. I know you did and are doing the best you can, you mentioned this is your first dog, so I think you've done an amazing job so far without having a lot of experience in dogs with issues, I really commend you for that and am blown away by the amount of patience and effort you've put into it without having a background in it. So, I'm not saying any of this stuff with the intent to point out the way "she did it wrong" or anything like that.

 

You asked how much I thought the vet bills and food would be. It depends on any medical issues your dog has. If she is healthy, then I'd imagine only the checkup fees. Don't know how much, we have ours all on a wellness-plan that has a monthly fee (forget how much individualy but I'm sure it's around $20 a month for each dog) that covers all basic procedures and quite a few extra ones too. Food costs us about $50 a month for our three, which equates to about $16 each. So, for food an vet, you'd be sending me $36 a month.

 

Here's another issue. My dog's are very calm and get along well with each other, so they hang out together all day while I'm not home, free roam of the upstairs. However, until you'rs would be rehabilitated to a level where she is comfortable alone around other dogs, she would have to be crated somewhere seperate while we are at work all day. Even if she's housetrained, the stress of knowing (smelling, hearing) that there are other dogs in the house and not being able to get to them (if she had free roam of another room) would cause her to become frustrated and destructive (most likely). And, keeping her with the other 3 would be out of the question when we are not home to keep watch until she is totaly rehabbed. So, she'd need to be in a crate while we are not home and I do not have room for another crate anywhere. I run my photography business out of the downstairs, and I cannot have a dog crate down there, I need clients to take me seriously, and there's little room for a crate upstairs, so that would present quite a predicament. She cannot stay outside either, because i live in Houston and it gets easily over 100 degrees here from May to August, and that's just too hot for a dog to be outsifde. So, even if I was able to convince my wife, which is unlikely, there's still the issue of you sending me almost $40 a month (may not be much to some, but in this economy I don't have an extra $40) and then the issue of where she'd be when we are at work all day. The evenings would be fine, but the days would be a problem until she'd be fully rehabbed.

 

I'm very sorry somebody (whoever it was, don't remember) made that suggestion out of a silly dare to try and make me look like a hypocrite or something, it was childish, but I don't see a way for me to help you at this time, as much as I'd love to (honestly, my heart wishes I could help dogs for a living, but my bills say otherwise...maybe someday) - however, there are people out there who do this for a living, who have more experience than me, and who would most likly help you. I will do all I can to try and research some for you right now.

[JBlaylock]

Where do you guys live by the way? Would you intend on taking her back after she appears to have been rehabilitated? Would you be willing to spend some time learning from the rehabilitator the type of things you will need to do and just how you will need to do them - consistantly - in order for her to remain rehabilitated instead of relapsing back into an agressive behavior? What kind of time frame? i.e. is there a specific amount of time you would need before taking her back, regardless of when she is ready to go back?

[bcnewe2]

It was me Jblaylock. I wasn't teasing or daring you. I thought you might be albe to help. You seem to have confidence in your methods and thought this dog could be rehabed. Post # 55

So re-read my original statement and take the poo off your shoulder. I suggested it because I thought it might work.

 

Ya know, when I take on a dog. Even if it is to help someone out. The dog becomes mine. Unless other arrangements are made, it's mine.

I'd never dream of taking money for the upkeep of a dog that I was working with or living with me for an unknown amount of time. I know for me, I become attached to the dogs that live with me. I'd hate to come to love one and becasue someone was paying me "board" to keep it they have the right to take it back.

Not the way I roll. So don't make excuses, just say nope, can't do it. in the same manner in which I asked if you could.

[JBlaylock]

It was me Jblaylock. I wasn't teasing or daring you. I thought you might be albe to help. You seem to have confidence in your methods and thought this dog could be rehabed. Post # 55

So re-read my original statement and take the poo off your shoulder. I suggested it because I thought it might work.

 

Ya know, when I take on a dog. Even if it is to help someone out. The dog becomes mine. Unless other arrangements are made, it's mine.

I'd never dream of taking money for the upkeep of a dog that I was working with or living with me for an unknown amount of time. I know for me, I become attached to the dogs that live with me. I'd hate to come to love one and becasue someone was paying me "board" to keep it they have the right to take it back.

Not the way I roll. So don't make excuses, just say nope, can't do it. in the same manner in which I asked if you could.

 

I'm sorry bcnewe2, it was Lenajo's comment i was refering too, about his "put your money where your mouth is" "that's a big BUTT" "Prove it" comments, not yours.

 

She said she wanted her dog rehabed, or at least that's how I thought I understood it, and that she'd want it back after she had overcome the agression issues. I can't afford the costs of a fourth dog, especialy not one i'm going to turn around and give back after it's fixed. I'm sure I'd get attached to her, but I don't have a very big house, and four dogs is a bit much to keep indoors in our house, and like I said, it's too hot for an outside dog here in houston.

 

Anyways, Pansmom. I re-read your original post, carefuly. It seems like her agression has subsided to just growling and sometimes snarling now, right? When she starts growling, what do you typicaly do as a response? If you could describe in detail it would help me understand exactly what the real issues might be.

[JBlaylock]

Based on what I've read, my method might be like this.

 

First of all, you have to make yourself calm when dealing with your dog. There are tricks to this. Focus on something positive. If your husband is there with you, before you approach the dog for any exercise, ask your husband to start listing the things he loves about you, or if you're alone, ask yourself (In your head) what you'd like to see your dog eventualy accomplish, what you'd like to train her to do, tell yourself she is going to listen to you, she is going to be calm and submissive with you, and she is not going to do anything bad. In fact, try not to even think about the possibility of "badness" with the dog, just try to think of positive things, so that you will become calm with positive energy.

 

Work slowly with the dog, but not in a cautious way with stiff and distant arms. That energy will project to the dog and tell her you are weak and uncomfortable and ready to submit to her. Instead, after you're calm, move slow but smoothly and gracfully, and allways with a purpose - think about what you're going to do before you go and do it. Whatever you do, don't be jittery and ready to jerk your hands away from a bite that your expectin, because the dog will then take that as an invetation to bite.

 

If you're doing your own thing, and the dog happens to start growling at something, immidiatly correct it, stand up straight - good posture and inner calmness - and use some command, whether is "ahht! Psst! Schhhh! Zzzzzt!, whatever" something that will catch the dogs attention, and point your hand at it like "yeah I'm talking to you". She will most likely stop growling, but if she continues, walk towards her, if you are really calm and assertive through and through she will - in most cases - surrender. If you have to grab her scruff and pin her on her side and hold her there, do it. I know you said the trainer tried this and as soon as he let go she bit him four times...well, a good trainer would ave known it wasn't time to let go yet. It's not just about pinning her. True you have to keep her pinned in submission, but you need to be calm inside while doing it, and you need to speek nurtureingly to her, "it's okay, good girl" - but not in an overemotional baby-talk tone, or she will think somethings wrong, just calm and normal like you'd talk to your friend. When you feel that she starts calming down a little, looses your grip, keep at least one hand on her scruff or side to keep her from jumping up, and use the other hand to massage her, behind the head, on the side, etc, but avoidthe mouth and face for now. It may take 15 minutes, but she will eventualy calm down and you can release the pinning hand and just pet her, all the while talking calmly to her. Scratch her belly, etc. Back off and go about your business like nothing happened, she'll see you are a great leader who knows how to keep control and make her feel comfortable.

 

But, the goal is ultimately to catch it at level 1, when she starts looking like she's going to growl at something.

[Lenajo]

jblaylock how many dogs have you rehabbed from aggression?

 

I'm really getting tired of the TV Advice. And the excuses. And the floudering about between comments like

 

The answer to how you would help it overcome these fear issues will be meaningless out of context. What I mean is, I can list it here, but it's not a step by step science, it's more an art, you have to adjust to the particular dog. Things like proper body language,

 

that might acutally make sense if you followed it, and not gave comments like this

 

She will most likely stop growling, but if she continues, walk towards her, if you are really calm and assertive through and through she will - in most cases - surrender. If you have to grab her scruff and pin her on her side and hold her there, do it.

 

I've worked with, *with* not watched on TV, dogs that would *kill* a person for doing this. You have really poor ethics and integrity as a trainer to give advice like this on the internet to a dog and situation you don't know whatsoever. A situation that is a first time owner with limited experience to boot!

 

For dog's sake, the first rule of dog training is to keep people safe! This dog has already bitten it's owners and other people. What is it going to take to get that through your head that the dog is actually *dangerous* - it actually putting them in the hospital?

 

I hope the original poster makes some good choices, with good professional up close and personal help.

 

You...well you...need to turn off the TV for a while. Cesar's TV, and if he's also Cesar the dog trainer with a ton of experience and a willingness to get bitten to make his point. You are jblaylock, TV watcher, internet poster, telling other people things that could get them seriously hurt. See the difference?

[Journey]

If you're doing your own thing, and the dog happens to start growling at something, immidiatly correct it, stand up straight - good posture and inner calmness - and use some command, whether is "ahht! Psst! Schhhh! Zzzzzt!, whatever" something that will catch the dogs attention, and point your hand at it like "yeah I'm talking to you". She will most likely stop growling, but if she continues, walk towards her, if you are really calm and assertive through and through she will - in most cases - surrender. If you have to grab her scruff and pin her on her side and hold her there, do it. I know you said the trainer tried this and as soon as he let go she bit him four times...well, a good trainer would ave known it wasn't time to let go yet. It's not just about pinning her. True you have to keep her pinned in submission, but you need to be calm inside while

 

Ya know this is one sure fire way to not only get bit but bit in the face. JB, do you even "own" a Border Collie? How many dogs have you rehab'd? While you may think CM is doG, have you any idea how many feet of tape are trashed on the editing floor? What you see is what "works", what you don't see is well, we don't know. If I am not mistaken there are/were several lawsuits filed against him from dog owners. It's one thing to give out advise but the owner has already said numerous times the dog BITES. Scruffing this dog and pinning her = bad move imo. You are about to cross the threshold to giving dangerous advise, on a public forum no less.

[PSmitty]

If you're doing your own thing, and the dog happens to start growling at something, immidiatly correct it, stand up straight - good posture and inner calmness - and use some command, whether is "ahht! Psst! Schhhh! Zzzzzt!, whatever" something that will catch the dogs attention, and point your hand at it like "yeah I'm talking to you". She will most likely stop growling, but if she continues, walk towards her, if you are really calm and assertive through and through she will - in most cases - surrender. If you have to grab her scruff and pin her on her side and hold her there, do it. I know you said the trainer tried this and as soon as he let go she bit him four times...well, a good trainer would ave known it wasn't time to let go yet. It's not just about pinning her. True you have to keep her pinned in submission, but you need to be calm inside while doing it, and you need to speek nurtureingly to her, "it's okay, good girl" - but not in an overemotional baby-talk tone, or she will think somethings wrong, just calm and normal like you'd talk to your friend. When you feel that she starts calming down a little, looses your grip, keep at least one hand on her scruff or side to keep her from jumping up, and use the other hand to massage her, behind the head, on the side, etc, but avoidthe mouth and face for now. It may take 15 minutes, but she will eventualy calm down and you can release the pinning hand and just pet her, all the while talking calmly to her. Scratch her belly, etc. Back off and go about your business like nothing happened, she'll see you are a great leader who knows how to keep control and make her feel comfortable.

 

Wow. I'm sorry, but that's some scary advice. If you're comfortable with such methods, more power to ya, but suggesting this to someone online, whose dog you've never seen, and whose dog handling skills you've never witnessed, well, I just don't know how it can be a good idea. Sounds like a recipe to get bitten, to me.

 

Great leaders keep their subjects pinned in submission, eh?

 

Pansmom and anyone else lurking, please consider carefully any advice you get online, but particularly stuff like the above. I think many of us realize the futility in trying to diagnose and offer advice on aggression online, and that's why we suggested professional help.

[JBlaylock]

I stated clearly that the advice is meaningless without the experience to know how to use it. I also stated that per what I read it sounds like she's got the biting under control and the dog only growls now. So, with a dog that is under the owners control in terms of biting, someone with experience and knowhow following that advice would be just fine. Lenajo, you don't have the slightest clue who I am, so don't make assumptions like I get all my opinions from watching TV, because you don't know. You also are just "and internet poster" and you can't prove otherwise any more than I can prove I'm a Dinosaur, so why don't you quit getting your kicks from trying to give me a hard time.

 

Fact is, 90% of dog trainers out there don't know what the hell they're talking about, and as much as you guys may want to feel personaly insulted or feel like i'm wrong, go pay attention to your packs at home, give yourself an honest evaluation, don't misleead yourselves off of personal bias towards your babies, but envite a guest over and really examine who's in control in your pack. Then come back here and continue your course as internet posters, hiding behind the saftey or the worldwideweb. As for me and this forum, I'm tired of this so quickly after only a coupld of weeks. What a bunch of snobs some of you are, and so hasty to trash talk. I thought this would be a fun place for adults to have mature conversations about dogs, instead I see it's full of children who misunderstand points and hastily jump the gun to insult.

[BorderCollieSam]

Although i understand members concern regarding the advise given by JBlaylock, and i also understand that the original poster has limited dog handling skills, however possibly JBaylock is basing his advise on his own skills and has allready stated that he can't give step by step advise due to the nature of the issue.

 

Consider the Crocodile Hunter guy that used to be on TV, im sure if he was on a forum a few years ago advising how to put your head inside a crocodiles mouth you would all be questioning his ability and mindset, however that guy had a natural way with animals and we can't judge his skills over an internet forum but once you see him in the flesh i'm sure you would have put your hands up and acknowledged his skills were legit.....

[Journey]

As for me and this forum, I'm tired of this so quickly after only a coupld of weeks. What a bunch of snobs some of you are, and so hasty to trash talk.

 

Does that mean you are leaving? I'd rather be a snob that knows what I am talking about then an unknown misleading people with dangerous ideas. As for "proving" anything, come on over, I'm not that far from you, Tennessee.

 

Karen

[Lenajo]

Consider the Crocodile Hunter guy that used to be on TV, im sure if he was on a forum a few years ago advising how to put your head inside a crocodiles mouth you would all be questioning his ability and mindset, however that guy had a natural way with animals and we can't judge his skills over an internet forum but once you see him in the flesh i'm sure you would have put your hands up and acknowledged his skills were legit.....

 

He was great, was... because he got too up close and personal with the wildlife one too many times and paid the price. Unfortunately that's probably also what will happen to Cesar Milan one day - and I sincerely hope *not*, because I don't wish anyone harm, but his odds are up there. Play with fire...

 

The point with jblaylock is that nobody with real skill in animals who cares about people and animals gives specific training instruction on the internet in these situtations. Even Cesar/Nat Geo has the legal sense to ask people to get professional help to train their dog and to not follow what they do on TV.

 

They might give generalities, but they don't give specifics because you cannot possibly read the whole situation and the chance of getting someone seriously hurt is very real.

 

The Boards, while somewhat "virtual" are actually made up of real people that if you don't know, I do, or someone else does here, and as is seen well here...we do talk LOL. The Border Collie world is very small in this regard. There are very few active and long term posters here that somebody can't id in person. And we do expect people to walk the walk. Say you know how to train aggressive dogs? Then give us credentials. What have you done? with what dog? in what context?

 

all we are getting from jblaylock is 90% bad advice and some rude language. The other 10% is some amusing new names for ourselves. Which I'm glad of, because Julie P really hogged the Borg and Poseur both and I was feeling soooo left out.

 

I hope he stays personally, but not at the price of giving out bad advice without being corrected.

 

sincerely.

The Adolescent Minded Forumaniac

[Liz P]

What I mean by "exclusively human psychological issues" is not that dog's don't have psyc issues, only that their psyc is way different than ours, there are certain psyc issues that are exclusively human, and too often do people associate these human issues with dog issues, when in reality the dog's psyc is different and its psyc issues are unrelated to ours. Fear in a dog is not the same as fear in a human, totaly different basis and manifestation. Dog's don't have imaginations, for one thing, and a dog's fear is based off of natural recognition of pack placement, hierarchy, survival, approval, dissaproval, etc... Sometimes these can become overexadurated in a dog, maybe even chemically embalanced, but they always have the same roots and definitions, and I strongly believe there is not a dog that cannot be helped to overcome these issues and live a happy life. That's my belief.

 

May I ask your educational background?

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

"If you have to grab her scruff and pin her on her side and hold her there, do it. I know you said the trainer tried this and as soon as he let go she bit him four times...well, a good trainer would ave known it wasn't time to let go yet. It's not just about pinning her."

 

An action like this would be considered an outright attack to an aggressive dog. There is a high probability the dog will fight back. Fight or flight. They can't flee, so there is only one option left.

 

You can't fix aggression with aggression. The only thing this will do is make the dog not want to show their warning signs (growling, showing teeth) which are very valuable assets when dealing with a dog who has fear/aggression issues.

 

Of course I'm not a trainer nor an expert, this is based on my experience with my own fearful dog and positive training experience.

 

My grandfather had poorly bred GSD when I was younger, she was "aggressive" and fearful of everything. He tried everything, back then there was no such thing as positive training, the dog had to be PTS because she was too un-predictable. Looking back, I see a lot of similarities between her and my own dog and the difference of effects between positive training and traditional methods. If we could have jumped into the future, that dog would still be alive I bet and in a lot better shape than she was.

[stockdogranch]

Just a quick comment, jblaylock. You said something to the effect that you wouldn't give specific advice out of context--without knowing the whole situation, etc. Then, you proceeded to do exactly just that, with your step-by-step instructions to the poor OP,

 

A

 

ETA:

I strongly believe there is not a dog that cannot be helped to overcome these issues and live a happy life. That's my belief.

And while that may be your belief, there are a number of people on this board who know differently, and have said as much.

[JMack]

I agree that jblaylock is giving some terrible advice but it seems to me very unlikely, from Pansmom's various posts, that she would take such advice (& jblaylock seems very, very young-- maybe too young to realize how very complex these situations can be)

 

Pansmom,

If a behavioral vet seems financially out of the question right now, have you considered talking with your regular vet about going straight to medication? Clomicalm or fluoxetine seems worth a try; both are inexpensive. You (& the dog) don't seem to have much to lose at this point. While it might be ideal to get an exact diagnosis first, medication is always a bit of a crap shoot & you only know for sure if it will work is by use.

 

Just a thought. Sorry you're dealing with this & impressed with your patience & commitment.