Terrible Aggression - at my wit's end, please help!

[Wendy V]

JB writes:

I would suggest correcting her and waiting 30 or more seconds before praising her, and then only if she has remained calm and well behaved through those 30 seconds. Also, during those 30 seconds, try not to stay so focused on her, let her forget what happened and restart her internal awareness of what's going on, so that when praised, she forgot about the bad and only connects her current situation (i.e. sitting quietly) with the reward. The last thing you want to do is associate the "bad behavior" as part of the chain of events leading to reward.

 

I totally agree with this. Many people are too quick with the praise after correction, driven perhaps by guilt (which could be the root of the misbehavior entirely, but that is another topic). Separating the two events - bad behavior vs. good behavior, brings more clarity to the dog.

 

JB, I love the gentler, calmer you. Good boy!

[Caroline Reichard]

Just got back and felt I should respond to Caroline’s question about my last, rather lengthy post:

 

But we are not talking about your dogs or my dogs. We are talking about Pan, a dog who is clearly not well-adjusted, with an owner that only two weeks ago was “at her wits end” because of aggressive behavior ... at least some of those times, the owner did not recognize any warning signs from the dog before the bite.

 

In that specific context, I regard it as relatively good news

 

I did not meant to suggest that I think it’s normal for a well-adjusted dog to respond to minor inconveniences with strong signals like growling and teeth-baring.

 

Hi Alaska,

 

Your response makes sense to me. What I see you saying is, " Considering that this dog will bite w/ no visible provocation or warning, it is a relatively good thing that it was warning her owner rather than simply immediately biting."

 

On the Richter scale of dog biting, snarling at your owner for petting you is definitely lower than sneaking up behind your owner and biting her on the ass.

 

But it is still pretty damn bad.

 

I honestly don't know what to make of this. I live on a farm, and we have to make difficult decisions all the time. Moral questions and practical considerations are never in separate drawers. I must decide which sheep live and which die: life and death decisions are both momentous and routine. I value the life of each animal on the place, but some stay while others do not.

 

In addition to sheep, I have dogs. I depend on my dogs to help my work and have clear expectations and requirements; there are things that a dog just couldn't do and stay here. That being said, I love and respect my dogs, including the ones that don't make the grade and are placed out.

 

Pan has violated some of the most basic elements of the dog/human contract. She has done so repeatedly and unpredictably. She is a danger to herself and others. The OP has done everything she knows to fix this; she loves this dog. But the dog is untrustworthy. I'm not saying that it's Pan's fault, fault isn't at issue here. I'm just observing that Pan's behavior rises beyond the level of irritating and into dangerous. Perhaps worst of all, it is unpredictable to the owner. It's hard to imagine ever trusting her enough to have guests - much less kids - around her. The anecdotes that the OP gives create the sense that this dog lives in its own reality; there might even be a name for her condition were she human, but we have no vocabulary for canine nuttiness. So I guess what I'm saying is that barring some amazing news from the medical/ pharmaceutical end, the conclusion to this story seems clear enough to me. The only question is how many chapters there are still left to read.

[BorderCollieSam]

This is a nice theory, but we already tried it as much as is practical for us. For three weeks, she slept with us in the bedroom, we were working with her constantly (she was on NILIF, which she loves, because she prefers always to have a job), and I ran with her 1 hour and a half every morning and walked her at night. We didn't have to do any corrections for three weeks at all, and then she started growling for no reason at weird times (like in the middle of the night). (Note: this is a dog who has JERKED UP FROM SLEEPING into a barking snarling run, no lie, for a long time we thought she had nightmares, but I think they have stopped.) Anyway when she was sleeping with us in the bedroom our first responses were things like, "No ma'am be a good dog" and that seemed to solve the night growling because consistently everytime she growled there was a mild correction followed by positive encouragement. But as soon as the night growling stopped, she started growling during the day more and more frequently and now though she hasn't bitten in... I guess it's three weeks now... she has gotten so unpredictable with the cats and snarling that my husband will not let her sleep with us, because we're not really supervising her with them while we're sleeping. So she sleeps in the kitchen. I know Pan would prefer to sleep with us but it's not safe for the cats and not fair for my husband to have to fear walking barefoot to the bathroom at night. Also, we don't have a spare room that I can sleep in with her, and my husband is already making enough sacrifices for me and Pan that I raelly don't want to ask him to not mind me sleeping in another room for two weeks. We're only married two years you know.

 

Anyway I know Pan responds best to mild corrections followed by positive reinforcement but there are some situations where we have to do more than just say "no ma'am be a good dog." I never hit her or anything like that but when a dog jumps up on you, and is obviously agitated and nipping, you have to stop it. So what I do in that situation is step toward her and say "No MA'AM, OFF" and take my right hand, gently wrap it around her snout, and look her in the eyes and say "no bites." And then when her eyes and face relax I let go and say "good girl." This is how we taught her not to nip as a pup, after yowling in faux-pain didn't work very well. The problem with Pan is she is VERY forceful and assertive... and she can be threatening. Most of the time when she is jumping up she is using her mouth as a hand not a weapon and the jumping doesn't FEEL like aggression, even though I know dominance theory would say it's a symptom. But she doesn't do this often, maybe once a week or so, she gets excited enough to do this, like say I grab my keys and wallet and she's like OMG CAR!!!!! And goes off. But she's just super excited and happy and tail wagging. But if I am sitting and she gets near my face I have to get up and get out of the way and say NO.

 

My working theory currently is as follows: genetically, I think Pan is a very assertive, highly intelligent dog who has a high prey drive and a low threshold; it was so hard to get her to the point where she would lay calmly around the house instead of running around psychotically barking at the tiniest sometimes even inaudible sounds; she was super shy and submissive as a puppy; she is obviously by nature a nervous dog. Hormonally/chemically, there may be something wrong with her, or it may simply be the natural progression of age. We worked with her to desensitize her to other dogs and things that scared her, but now that she is not scared, she is snarky with other dogs and aggressive toward them. She KNOWS how to properly meet other dogs, and if a dog is smaller than her and relaxed she will get low down on the ground and show them she is not a threat. But if they are her size or larger or acting aggressively she is NOT predictable at all. Environmentally, I think she wasn't taught complete bite inhibition by her mother (we had to do it ourselves and were not as successful as her mother might have been). I think I probably spoiled her as a puppy, taking her onto my lap and letting her lead me on the leash for months and doing a lot of things that looking back I wouldn't now. Also I would have had her in dog training classes earlier, and kept her in them CONSISTENTLY so she would never have had time to forget that other dogs aren't so bad. But even if I hadn't made all these mistakes I don't know if she'd be okay: her behavior is extraordinary enough that I can say she may have something genetically wrong with her.

 

Either way, speculating isn't helpful except where it helps us to decide on treatment and behavioral mod, so all I can do is be as gentle (yet assertive) with her as possible, always. And she does trust me a lot more than she once did when the bites first started happening and my husband and I had NO EARTHLY IDEA HOW TO ACT. But she still doesn't trust either of us completely and yes I have wondered if there's pain we're not catching. But apart from a battery of really expensive tests like MRIs there is no way to know. And she still loves to run which we do every day (although she doesn't always get that night walk) and she doesn't ACT like she's in pain in any other way except for the overprotectiveness of her body. I honestly think it's more about not wanting to be coddled and wanting control. Apart from laying at our feet and cuddling them (and yes if I tell her to move, she will, ASAP, so it's not dominance aggression cuddling where she wants to OWN our feet) I think the only affection she wants is play. Which she gets a lot, but I love her so much, I really wish she was ok with more petting like she used to be as a pup.

 

Hi Pansmom,

 

I still maintain its a lack of trust/confidence in people, as i posted earlier.

 

I notice in your above post you mention:-

 

'but we already tried it as much as is practical for us'

 

'she slept with us in the bedroom'

 

'we were working with her constantly'

 

'We didn't have to do any corrections for three weeks at all'

 

My look on it is its like mates and freinds. You might have loads of mates, who you would go out with and have a laugh with, play sport with etc., but you normally only have one good freind, somebody you can trust with your life and tell them the most delicate and personal problems you are going through, relationship problems, money problems, etc., and this is where i would make sure that in your situation with this dog, that only 'one' of you, i would suggest you, makes freinds with this dog.

 

Why can't you sleep in the kitchen with her? I realise you've only been married for 2 years, however this is going to ultimately mean the difference between your dog either being pts or your dog recovering.....i'm sure your husband can appreciate the life/death situation that this ultimately IS.

 

You mention that you take your dog for a run in the mornings and a walk at night. In this situation i would take her out, and just 'hang out' with her, sit in a field with her for example and talk to her, take some food along with you and have a meal together, as stupid as this may sound, its all about team building......

 

I would really love to see this dog, do you have any pictures? I feel like i'm getting emotionally connected to this dog and i haven't even seen her yet....

[JBlaylock]

As for the waiting 30 seconds thing, interestingly, I tried it with her and it seems to be working. -snip- I'll keep trying it and we'll see but honestly I think she might have been repeating the ENTIRE cycle because she is smart enough to know if she bites it again and then stops she'll get attention again, whereas this way the biting has completely left her mind by the time she is praised because she has had to focus on trying to keep being good for a while (running even with the bike and watching me) to get the praise, instead of getting it immediately. Anyway that's my theory. We'll see if it continues to work. If this actually works I can apply this in a lot of other areas and probably get some pretty good results. We'll see.

 

 

Great! So glad that it seems to be working. I know it worked great with all my dogs. That's why I suggested it. Pansmom, every post of yours seems more positive than the rest. Despite all of the arguing - friendly or not - and contraditction in this thread, I think it has at least prompted some deeper thought on your part on how to help Pan out. She seems do be doing beter in each of your posts, I'm extatic for that.

[JBlaylock]

JB, I love the gentler, calmer you. Good boy!

 

 

I'm trying. See, it's because Eileen corrected my bad behavior, then she waited 30 seconds untill I was calm and the bad behavior was out of my mind before she praised me and let me back in the house.

[Eileen Stein]

The above two posts from Caroline and BorderCollieSam sure illustrate the breadth of the spectrum of reactions that people can have to this situation.

[Eileen Stein]

I'm trying. See, it's because Eileen corrected my bad behavior, then she waited 30 seconds untill I was calm and the bad behavior was out of my mind before she praised me and let me back in the house.

 

:D

 

Training can be so satisfying sometimes. But so much depends on the quality of the trainee.

[Sue R]

The above two posts from Caroline and BorderCollieSam sure illustrate the breadth of the spectrum of reactions that people can have to this situation.

Which is IMO a very good thing as what works for one person and their situation, may not work for another. Varying viewpoints give alternatives to consider and implement, to see what produces the desired result. It may be confusing when folks on on different pages (or reading from different books!) but it does present a lot to think about and, hopefully, provide the approach that will make the difference.

[juliepoudrier]

This may be totally off base, but when I read this part of PM's post:

 

(Note: this is a dog who has JERKED UP FROM SLEEPING into a barking snarling run, no lie, for a long time we thought she had nightmares, but I think they have stopped.)

 

My first thought was that perhaps Pan has/had seizures. It may be way off base and not at all applicable to any of the other issues that have been discussed (unless one looks at it as a "miswired" brain issue, but I would wonder about a dog who wakes out of a sound sleep this way.

 

Caroline,

I have a problem dog, and although I appreciate your post about tough decisions, and I've come close to making that decision with this particular dog on the rare occasions he's bitten me, I decided that I could manage him and so I do. I also recognize that not anyone could manage him and that's why I've expressed in my animal care directive should I die that Farleigh be PTS rather than placed with someone. Of course I got him as a rescue, not a working dog, so my expectations of him were never the same as they were for the working dogs here. It is possible to manage a fear aggressive dog--it's just not a choice everyone would make. I was one of the first to say to PM that this sounds like a case where she might have to consider euthanizing Pan, but then again, I didn't make that same choice with Farleigh (who, admittedly, isn't nearly as bad as Pan seems to be), so I couldn't fault PM for not making that choice either.

 

J.

[Caroline Reichard]

The above two posts from Caroline and BorderCollieSam sure illustrate the breadth of the spectrum of reactions that people can have to this situation.

 

 

We noticed that, too, Eileen, over breakfast today. The whole family has been discussing this thread. Hal, my 12 year old, said regarding the advice that the OP should leave the bedroom to go sleep on the kitchen floor with the dog: "So he thinks she should divorce her husband and marry the dog?"

 

On a more serious note, I did notice that BorderCollieSam and I both focused on one trait: trust. My point was about the possibility of trusting the dog while BCSam's point was about the dog's trust in the OP (which in my mind ought to already be in place, given that the OP has been a basically a good owner). In any case, trust may be a key. It is certainly a defining feature of my relationships with dogs, and it does have to go both ways. If you wanted to deconstuct this relationship, I'd be inclined to ask why Pan can't trust the owner. I suspect that it is not the owner's fault.

[pansmom]

Hi Alaska,

 

Your response makes sense to me. What I see you saying is, " Considering that this dog will bite w/ no visible provocation or warning, it is a relatively good thing that it was warning her owner rather than simply immediately biting."

 

On the Richter scale of dog biting, snarling at your owner for petting you is definitely lower than sneaking up behind your owner and biting her on the ass.

 

But it is still pretty damn bad.

 

I honestly don't know what to make of this. I live on a farm, and we have to make difficult decisions all the time. Moral questions and practical considerations are never in separate drawers. I must decide which sheep live and which die: life and death decisions are both momentous and routine. I value the life of each animal on the place, but some stay while others do not.

 

In addition to sheep, I have dogs. I depend on my dogs to help my work and have clear expectations and requirements; there are things that a dog just couldn't do and stay here. That being said, I love and respect my dogs, including the ones that don't make the grade and are placed out.

 

Pan has violated some of the most basic elements of the dog/human contract. She has done so repeatedly and unpredictably. She is a danger to herself and others. The OP has done everything she knows to fix this; she loves this dog. But the dog is untrustworthy. I'm not saying that it's Pan's fault, fault isn't at issue here. I'm just observing that Pan's behavior rises beyond the level of irritating and into dangerous. Perhaps worst of all, it is unpredictable to the owner. It's hard to imagine ever trusting her enough to have guests - much less kids - around her. The anecdotes that the OP gives create the sense that this dog lives in its own reality; there might even be a name for her condition were she human, but we have no vocabulary for canine nuttiness. So I guess what I'm saying is that barring some amazing news from the medical/ pharmaceutical end, the conclusion to this story seems clear enough to me. The only question is how many chapters there are still left to read.

 

I am not as negative as that... I think part of the problem in the beginning was me being a new dog owner and not knowing how to recognize Pan's body language and thus being unable to read her signals. Also, I was told by two people to whom I went for advice in the beginning to be very firm with her (gentle but very firm, I think I mentioned this before, CM style corrections, wolf mouth, and if she tries to bite, as a last resort pinning to protect myself - instead of leaving te room) and that is what we did when this first started happening and I think that confused and scared the hell out of her. Now that I am doing very gentle corrections, the way that comes naturally to me and what we did before we first got advice, Pan is no longer as scared and gives more reliable much less aggressive signals (see the lip curling incident). Also, she will lay beneath my feet without growling, which is a major development (or rather return to pre-February behavior). I actually wonder if she is just a highly reactive easily spooked dog who, after we took some bad advice, got REALLY scared of her owners and was kind of tormented by it. All of that could be explained by environment; the only other problems that she's had before the owner/dog relationship deteriorated in february was resource guarding food and then later guarding her kennel after I moved it (the two very first biting incidents). I am hoping to get it back to that level, because she no longer resource guards from me due to the trading games we do. In fact, now when she eats, she likes to take a bite, step back, and look at me, like - is there anything you'd like to add the bowl now mommy? I know you have the really good treats.

 

But it has been a really good week... She's been so happy most of the time. She's even growling at the husband less (I figure if I get her to the point where she totally trusts me, then I can work on helping him do the trading games and trust exercises with her).

 

Anyway, more good news: my department head was able to give me a summer class, so I may be able to take her to a veterinary behaviorist over the summer - hopefully one who will work with me on both behavior mod and medication. AND the kennel that works with aggression called me back and there will be room for her when we go on vacation in late May. Not only that but they understand fear aggression too and I may be able to go in for a one on one session with the certified trainer before I go out of town. I definitely want to take her there a few times before we go so that she will associate going there with positive experiences. The lady on the phone was VERY nice and understanding.

[DebC]

It seems to me that Pan is a very fortunate dog, and I think it is quite awesome how committed you are to helping her.

I can't really give you any advice, but I just wanted to say that I really hope things continue to turn to the positive as time passes.

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

Anyway, more good news: my department head was able to give me a summer class, so I may be able to take her to a veterinary behaviorist over the summer - hopefully one who will work with me on both behavior mod and medication. AND the kennel that works with aggression called me back and there will be room for her when we go on vacation in late May. Not only that but they understand fear aggression too and I may be able to go in for a class with the certified trainer before I go out of town. I definitely want to take her there a few times before we go so that she will associate going there with positive experiences. The lady on the phone was VERY nice and understanding.

 

Well, that is good news! I'm wondering if you can go to the kennel yourself for a visit before you even bring Pan. See how they operate and handle the dogs? What kind of training style they use, how they actually handle aggressive dogs. I'd be terribly worried to leave my own dog with strangers, never mind a dog as reactive as yours. I can only use positive training with Daisy and her triggers and other things, like just being a dip sh*t only verbal corrections...she's quite sensitive and liable to shut down at a moments notice, so I would be super vigilant with a situation like this, making sure they wouldn't do anything to further traumatize her. But that's only how I would do it and of course, that's my own dog with her own issues....

[pansmom]

 

I'm trying. See, it's because Eileen corrected my bad behavior, then she waited 30 seconds untill I was calm and the bad behavior was out of my mind before she praised me and let me back in the house.

 

OK, this was HILARIOUS. I'm dying over here.

[pansmom]

Great! So glad that it seems to be working. I know it worked great with all my dogs. That's why I suggested it. Pansmom, every post of yours seems more positive than the rest. Despite all of the arguing - friendly or not - and contraditction in this thread, I think it has at least prompted some deeper thought on your part on how to help Pan out. She seems do be doing beter in each of your posts, I'm extatic for that.

 

Talking in writing to a BUNCH of people has helped me to process all the things I've heard and learned, and to unlearn some of the things that I think, in the end, weren't helpful. Also it REALLY helped to have a weeklong break. Hopefully we will continue to rebuild our trust and there will be no more biting, ever again.

[pansmom]

I would really love to see this dog, do you have any pictures? I feel like i'm getting emotionally connected to this dog and i haven't even seen her yet....

 

AWW!!!!!

 

Here are some pics. I posted earlier but will repost here including PUPPY pictures.

 

5 weeks

5 weeks

5 weeks

GENIUS PAN (almost 8 months, just before behavioral changes--surely they weren't on account of us making her wear the hat, haha)

Pan now, 1 year, 2 months

Pan now, 1 year, 2 months

 

I've mentioned before, she's not pedigree. Her mom was an outdoor working farm dog in Opelousas (whom we met when we adopted her), the story is she escaped one day while she was in heat and got pregnant via an unknown sire. Someone once suggested her father was a black lab (which would make her a borador like JBlaylock's dog), but most people who meet her say the dad had to be at least part BC himself because she is more than half BC, or at least it is the BC genes that got her brain because she is definitely BC in thought and habit. I do know that she stalks, does the eye, and about pretty much everything I see BCs do in video.

[pansmom]

Well, that is good news! I'm wondering if you can go to the kennel yourself for a visit before you even bring Pan. See how they operate and handle the dogs? What kind of training style they use, how they actually handle aggressive dogs. I'd be terribly worried to leave my own dog with strangers, never mind a dog as reactive as yours. I can only use positive training with Daisy and her triggers and other things, like just being a dip sh*t only verbal corrections...she's quite sensitive and liable to shut down at a moments notice, so I would be super vigilant with a situation like this, making sure they wouldn't do anything to further traumatize her. But that's only how I would do it and of course, that's my own dog with her own issues....

 

I've been there before. Pan has stayed in this kennel before, I just didn't know they knew anything about aggression until my vet mentioned it to me. She stayed there for a weekend when she was about six months old, months before she had any aggression (when she was just an easily spooked puppy). She was fine there, although a little scared of the other dogs. I'm hoping when I take her she will remember it, and I want to take her there several times and teach her that it is a good place. Thankfully she is more calm and confident around other dogs than she used to be (thank you desensitization, click to calm, cheese whiz). And maybe I can ask them to get he a kennel on the end. They are large cubbies, that the dogs stay in, and they exercise them twice daily. The boarder people are good people. They have acres and acres and even will, if you pay for it, let the dogs go for two hour SWIMS in the DUCK POND.

 

Obviously I'd rather her stay with friends or family but my parents are dead and my sister lives with her fiance's grandmother, and my husband's parents are scared of Pan. Back in March, when I told the trainer from Pan's beginner class about my boarding predicament she offered to let me pay her to have Pan stay at her apartment (dogsitting), but that was before I posted here about the last time Pan backslid, so even though she likes Pan and has a 1/2 BC herself, I doubt she will still be okay with that because I know it is a LOT to ask, and we really don't know each other. So I am just trying to make sure I have options. I feel so good knowing there is at least somewhere I can board her, no matter what. I almost wish we didn't plan this trip, but we bought tickets (I think I mentioned before) back in January before any of this happened when Pan was just spooky basically (apart from liking rawhides waaaaay too much--she was fine if we didn't give them to her).

[BorderCollieSam]

AWW!!!!!

 

Here are some pics. I posted earlier but will repost here including PUPPY pictures.

 

5 weeks

5 weeks

5 weeks

GENIUS PAN (almost 8 months, just before behavioral changes--surely they weren't on account of us making her wear the hat, haha)

Pan now, 1 year, 2 months

Pan now, 1 year, 2 months

 

I've mentioned before, she's not pedigree. Her mom was an outdoor working farm dog in Opelousas (whom we met when we adopted her), the story is she escaped one day while she was in heat and got pregnant via an unknown sire. Someone once suggested her father was a black lab (which would make her a borador like JBlaylock's dog), but most people who meet her say the dad had to be at least part BC himself because she is more than half BC, or at least it is the BC genes that got her brain because she is definitely BC in thought and habit. I do know that she stalks, does the eye, and about pretty much everything I see BCs do in video.

 

She's sweet, i like the fifth picture, however i think you can tell a lot about the way she's feeling from that last photo - or is it just me?

 

To me, she definetely looks untrusting, she looks 'on edge', almost as though she's in 'fight or flight' mode.......

 

What is she like when she's eating? Does she let you near her food when eating?

 

I had a labrador cross when i was around 8 years old, he was a rescue dog, was around 3-4 years old, and had terrible aggression towards other dogs, he would literally pull you accross the road to get to another dog....he had never been trained a single thing in his life.

 

Also, he wouldn't let anybody near his food when eating. If you went anywhere near his food bowl with your face when he was eating, he would immediately stop, look at you out of the corner of his eye, and snarl and growl. I used to lay down with him everytime he ate, first at a distance, then gradually getting closer over time, until he realised that i wasn't going to take his food from him.

 

P.S. Not suggesting you should do that, just explaining a problem that i once had.....

 

He eventually turned out to be such a beautifull and protective companion, if my mum was to tell me off or go to smack me (yes i used to get a smack on the bum from my mum ) he would run up to her and growl/bark, and if she continued then he used to go to bite her hand, he became so protective over me.

[Caroline Reichard]

He eventually turned out to be such a beautifull and protective companion, if my mum was to tell me off or go to smack me (yes i used to get a smack on the bum from my mum ) he would run up to her and growl/bark, and if she continued then he used to go to bite her hand, he became so protective over me.

 

 

Well, you know that this is going to be intensively discussed over my family's breakfast tomorrow morning...

[flyer]

I am not as negative as that... I think part of the problem in the beginning was me being a new dog owner and not knowing how to recognize Pan's body language and thus being unable to read her signals. Also, I was told by two people to whom I went for advice in the beginning to be very firm with her (gentle but very firm, I think I mentioned this before, CM style corrections, wolf mouth, and if she tries to bite, as a last resort pinning to protect myself - instead of leaving te room) and that is what we did when this first started happening and I think that confused and scared the hell out of her.

 

I am so sorry this happened to you and Pan. Actually made me weepy. How could you possibly know being a new owner this is actually a detrimental way to handle a fear/aggressive dog. Now Pan may be way out there on the continuum of fearful and have something actually wrong with her wiring but this post gives me a lot of hope that there may be a tangible fix already in the works. You are now correcting in a more gentle clear manner and she is now giving you signals that you are learning to read, i.e. the lip curl. I think you two might make it. Eventually you may never see a lip curl again as you might get experienced enough to read her holding her breath, or flicking a tongue, or turning her head, or tensing and then you can be appropriate from there. I am hopeful she may be learning to trust you again and that you can then be able to trust her.

 

Colt is not my first dog, but he is my first purebred BC and the sensitivity and intelligence are incredible. He inspires such nuanced training and responds to the smallest of questions. I am loving this about him. I still can't believe he is only 5 1/2 months. He has a lot of poise for one so young.

 

Lots of well wishes still,

Flyer

 

I also want to say that this has turned into an excellent thread with so much info and compassion even from those who think the end result may not be so wonderful. Oh, and Caroline R., your son is very witty!!

[pansmom]

I am so sorry this happened to you and Pan. Actually made me weepy. How could you possibly know being a new owner this is actually a detrimental way to handle a fear/aggressive dog. Now Pan may be way out there on the continuum of fearful and have something actually wrong with her wiring but this post gives me a lot of hope that there may be a tangible fix already in the works. You are now correcting in a more gentle clear manner and she is now giving you signals that you are learning to read, i.e. the lip curl. I think you two might make it. Eventually you may never see a lip curl again as you might get experienced enough to read her holding her breath, or flicking a tongue, or turning her head, or tensing and then you can be appropriate from there.

 

Yeah a couple times today I got the FEELING like she wanted me to stop petting and stopped. I'm up to about 5 seconds on the ears and she really enjoys it, she's nuzzling and leaning into it now. (I started by naming the action "pet" then immediately rewarding it afterward with treats, similar to the way I desensitize her to noises, I want her to know pet is a good thing, dang it!) The thing is I'm NOT a visual person so the only way I pick up on her nervousness now is subconsciously without knowing why (probably she tensed or made a face or moved her ears - I have to pay more attention, maybe get one of those videos on K9 body language - see if I can actually memorize the subtle cues). But I've been extra-cautious all week, I thought about it for a couple days on the bus on the way back on my trip and I just thought, you know, what if it is how we were told to react to her that was seriously exacerbating the problem. Yes she's temperamentally NOT a laid back dog but things got so bad so fast what if it's something we were doing. So I resolved on the way back to myself to try to be as gentle as possible, just kind of treat her like a stray cat who doesn't know me yet and being very cautious and gentle (before Pan I considered myself a cat person--I know cats), that I would just basically be more like I was before we were told to be firm in February because we were close then, and maybe if I could just recreate that dynamic - the really gentle one that is more natural to me and remember it was fear driving her aggression and not a desire to dominate - we would be okay again.

 

I am hopeful she may be learning to trust you again and that you can then be able to trust her.

 

Yeah even my husband is starting to see that she's a bit scared of him and is being gentler and quieter with the way he talks to her. This morning I pointed out how she reacts to him (he calls her over to put her head on his lap and then she does but immediately goes down on her back to do a roll over - I said that's what she does sometimes when she meets new dogs, she's a little scared, and he was like, oh). He had seen her putting her head on my hand today and nuzzling a few moments before that -I think it encouraged him. And then he tried to do it and after about five seconds she did the lip curl to him... it really freaked him out, but I explained that though it's not the greatest thing some dogs who never bite or growl use that cue to communicate "OK I've had enough" and he was like really? And I said yes. And I do think it's less aggressive than a growl so I'm glad she's back to using it again. And hopefully it will fade away as she learns to trust us. My husband, happily, seems to be gravitating toward trust exercises on his own already. This afternoon after a few quick test pets (he would start and then I would say ok I'd stop now and he would) after they went well he hugged her (gingerly, briefly) and told her he loved her, which he hasn't done in weeks (he's protested to me that he loved her, but he hasn't told her, it was very sweet). She still doesn't trust him (she's been lying at my feet all day no growls, nothing, and much later tonight when he leaned over me (and her) for a couple minutes after I called him over to look at my computer she growled - very quietly - but then - and this is key - moved AWAY instead of aggressing. And then we both told her no - calmly, quietly, a bit surprised - and asked her to chill and she did. It was very calm compared to what would've happened a month ago. I am so relieved. This is manageable and she seems to be improving again finally.

 

THANK YOU EVERYONE FOR ALL YOUR INPUT AND SUGGESTIONS. I needed to hear EVERY POINT OF VIEW that I did. Every single one helped. It was seeing the differences that was most instructing.

[pansmom]

She's sweet, i like the fifth picture, however i think you can tell a lot about the way she's feeling from that last photo - or is it just me?

 

To me, she definetely looks untrusting, she looks 'on edge', almost as though she's in 'fight or flight' mode.......

 

She was looking at a cat, actually.

 

What is she like when she's eating? Does she let you near her food when eating?

 

Me, but not my husband. I mentioned this earlier - if it's just me and her in the room she is all stopping and coming to get me and hey mom are you gonna drop some of the good stuff in my bowl (we do trading games every day so she doesn't resource guard from me) but if my husband or a cat is around, she eats at lightning speed. I plan to have him work on this later once their relationship is more repaired and he has a little more faith.

[mbc1963]

I am so sorry this happened to you and Pan. Actually made me weepy. How could you possibly know being a new owner this is actually a detrimental way to handle a fear/aggressive dog. Now Pan may be way out there on the continuum of fearful and have something actually wrong with her wiring but this post gives me a lot of hope that there may be a tangible fix already in the works. You are now correcting in a more gentle clear manner and she is now giving you signals that you are learning to read, i.e. the lip curl.

 

I was thinking the same things yesterday. When I first brought Buddy home, I read a whole bunch of dog training books, quick. Mind you, I'd had dogs my whole life, and so I can read dog body language as well as I can read human body language (or maybe better; I'm more successful at befriending dogs than humans!). And when my dog began to act aggressive (or reactive, actually), I briefly took the advice of some of the trainers who said I needed to chain-yank when the dog got reactive. Because I could read body language clearly, I saw within a week or less that my yanking his chain was making the dog more aggressive and more frightened. So, I made a conscious choice to just avoid stressors, and introduce them calmly and gently, to give the dog an "out" when he got over threshold. That was a gigantic turning point in our lives. I really think that when Buddy realized he could trust me to choose good situations for him, he began to let down his guard.

 

Sometimes I think dog body language is like any other language: if you didn't learn to speak it at a very young age, it will always be more awkward to you than it is for someone who learned it as a small child. (For me, cat body language is the same way - I never know what they're thinking or "saying," and I'm always a bit leery of being scratched for doing the wrong thing.) I definitely, definitely, DEFINITELY recommend Patricia McConnell's books ("For the Love of a Dog" and "The Other End of the Leash) for pictures that show body language, and what it means. "Whale eye" is one that even I, a rather fluent speaker of dog, had missed: when Buddy and most dogs get a bit overwhelmed by their situation, they widen their eyes a bit and look to the side. I notice it a LOT when Buddy meets dogs who scare him, and it's a precursor to a growl and snap. Here are a couple websites that have some pretty good photos of dogs feeling uncomfortable, whose owners might miss that if they didnt' know the signals:

 

http://www.familypaws.com/communication/

http://www.squidoo.com/readyerdog

 

Those websites call the eye thing "half-moon eyes." DEFINITELY watch for them!

 

Anyway... good luck. I'm fascinated, reading your story.

 

Mary

[bc4ever]

http://www.familypaws.com/communication/

http://www.squidoo.com/readyerdog

Mary

Great sites!

Pam

[flyer]

My husband, happily, seems to be gravitating toward trust exercises on his own already. This afternoon after a few quick test pets (he would start and then I would say ok I'd stop now and he would) after they went well he hugged her (gingerly, briefly) and told her he loved her, which he hasn't done in weeks (he's protested to me that he loved her, but he hasn't told her, it was very sweet). She still doesn't trust him (she's been lying at my feet all day no growls, nothing, and much later tonight when he leaned over me (and her) for a couple minutes after I called him over to look at my computer she growled - very quietly - but then - and this is key - moved AWAY instead of aggressing. And then we both told her no - calmly, quietly, a bit surprised - and asked her to chill and she did. It was very calm compared to what would've happened a month ago. I am so relieved. This is manageable and she seems to be improving again finally.

 

Ok, that's twice I've shed tears over this story. You two so deserve to have this work out!! Not that it will for sure, life certainly isn't just.

 

I too, have had dogs all my life and I have spent the last ten years working with horses. I read animals without thinking, but I agree that reading Patricia McConnell's books has honed that skill by naming much of what I naturally intuit.

 

I hope the dog kennel trainer who is understanding of fear/aggression can help you. I agree with the poster who said go and watch without Pan first. People sometimes talk a good talk, but they aren't always doing what they think they or say they are. I have seen it time and time again with both dogs and horses.

 

Flyer