ErinKate Posted April 19, 2009 Report Share Posted April 19, 2009 Oh forget it. I typed a few lines, but quite frankly it isn't really worth it. Everyone takes away from here what they will. Good luck to the OP. I look forward to updates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flamincomet Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 I recall a thread last fall quite similar to this one, started by Flamincomet, I believe, who wanted to place a dog that had bitten her and that she didn't feel competent to handle. Against a lot of advice like this, she did place the dog with someone more experienced, with full disclosure, and last we heard (in January, I think) the dog was doing well in its new home with most of its problems worked through. I know of other dogs with behavior issues including biting who have been placed successfully. So I just would not be comfortable stating dogmatically that nothing will work here except the behaviorist route or euthanasia. Especially about a dog I haven't seen. I was really debating responding to this thread, I've been following it for some time now. I agree 100% that there are NOT only 2 choices here. I was in a similar situation myself, as Eileen stated, with my former border collie Ghost. I ended up being bitten over a misunderstanding over food, not 100% Ghost's fault, but I don't believe 100% mine either (I'm sure people will disagree, but they weren't there, now were they?). I had put my heart and soul into that dog, I had him since he was 7 weeks old, he was my "real" first dog. However, I don't believe the breeder should have EVER placed him with me, looking back at old e-mails and being a bit more knowledgeable now, he was absolutely not a dog for an inexperienced owner. He was presented to me as "outgoing", which actually turned out to be, high-energy, pushy, reactive and obsessive. Now, were he placed with a more experienced owner, he may not have been that bad, I don't know, and will never know. But that is not my point. I reached my personal limitations, and made the decision I felt was best. I did bloodwork on him, and had him neutered after a friend took him for a week so I could think. Bloodwork came back normal and the vet said that she honestly didn't think his issues were medical. I didn't believe I could work with a dog I was literally terrified of, but I didn't, and still don't believe that he was beyond rehabilitation. So I searched long and hard for someone I felt completely comfortable with (turning people down in the process) and re homed him with them. Unfortunately not long after this, his new owner and I had very strong disagreements, and we are no longer in contact. But from the posts she has made and what I gather from other ears, he is doing well. Not great, he is a work in progress, even if she won't admit it to me, but he is certainly in more capable hands. As for me, I'm enjoying my other border collie, Spirit, immensely. We just got our CGC recently, are entered for a 2-day clinic with Patrick Shannahan at the beginning of May, are entering for rally obedience at the end of May, and plan to start agility by the end of this year. People still ask me if I miss Ghost, and my knee-jerk reaction is OF COURSE. I really don't think people understood how much I loved that dog, and still think I took the "easy" way out. People who really know me, in real life, know much better than to assume that, they know how hard a decision it was for me, and how much heartbreak I went through, even now I am tearing up remembering this. Some people say if I loved the dog so much I should have kept him. Well my response to that is, would that really have been fair to him? Personally I feel that would have been very selfish on my behalf. You have never met this dog, you have never met me, how would you know what is best for him? Pansmom, read through these posts, but take everything with a grain of salt. You know Pan best, make the decision YOU feel is best for Pan. Autumn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnewe2 Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 I don't believe the breeder should have EVER placed him with me, looking back at old e-mails and being a bit more knowledgeable now, he was absolutely not a dog for an inexperienced owner. He was presented to me as "outgoing", which actually turned out to be, high-energy, pushy, reactive and obsessive. Now, were he placed with a more experienced owner, he may not have been that bad, I don't know, and will never know. I am totally greatful that Autum's situation had a wonderful outcome. I'm glad that she did what she did. But I had to comment on this^^ It is pretty much near impossible to tell what a 7 week old puppy will turn out like. You can watch the parents, which might have helped FI realize this pup/breeding might have to much energy for her but even with knowing what both parents are like you can never be quite sure what you're gonna get. I picked Mick, the runt and quietest of the litter. He turned into one of the toughest dogs (plain ol bully mean) that I've ever owned. Neither of his parents were like this. Was it my fault? we'll never know. I was in a situation that I could make it work, I would pity the new person that got a dog like him. My point is you can stack the odds all you want, but you never know exactly what you're gonna get. Autum, you are young, and took peoples comments to heart, where you kept them. Hopefully with a bit of age, you are learning that the only thing that really matters are your personal choices. You take what you can from advise you get anywhere, but in the end you are the one that lives with your choice. So glad yours was good for both you and Ghost! Same with PM's, I get the impression she is arming herself with all the knowledge she can, then she'll make the right choice for her. We all look back and wonder "what if", to me that's just the learning part of life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbc1963 Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 Wow, Autumn... I followed that old thread closely, and had assumed you were a 35- or 40-year-old woman. Not sure WHY I assumed that; there was no reason for me to. I hadn't realized you'd been faced with such a tough choice at such a young age. I think you've taken away a huge life lesson, which will serve you well forever. Your best decision is sometimes a very, very hard one, and no one but you has to live with it. I can't know if there was a more perfect solution for you and Ghost, but I do know that you made a decision you believed was best for GHOST, not easiest for you, and for that I give you lots of credit. Mary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBlaylock Posted April 21, 2009 Report Share Posted April 21, 2009 Wow, lots of pages sense I've been gone. I just want to say - a bit late, I realize - sorry to those I offended or insulted or called names. I'll be more kind and mature in handling the proper way to have a discussion with oposing sides. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Coyote Posted April 21, 2009 Report Share Posted April 21, 2009 Sometimes those dogs with aggression problems can be placed. I had a friend who bred border collies (working dogs) and she got a puppy back because he had gotten just plain mean. I guess neighborhood children had just teased him until he got mean - I don't know all the details. She looked and looked for a home for him. He ended up with a home in a junkyard. He got along fine with the owner and he was a terrific guard dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freeman 101 Posted April 21, 2009 Report Share Posted April 21, 2009 Wow, lots of pages sense I've been gone. I just want to say - a bit late, I realize - sorry to those I offended or insulted or called names. I'll be more kind and mature in handling the proper way to have a discussion with oposing sides. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- JBlaylock, That took a lot of guts, maturity, and class to make that apology. Good for you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBlaylock Posted April 21, 2009 Report Share Posted April 21, 2009 Thanks freeman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pansmom Posted April 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 Wow, Autumn... I followed that old thread closely, and had assumed you were a 35- or 40-year-old woman. Not sure WHY I assumed that; there was no reason for me to. I hadn't realized you'd been faced with such a tough choice at such a young age. I think you've taken away a huge life lesson, which will serve you well forever. Your best decision is sometimes a very, very hard one, and no one but you has to live with it. I can't know if there was a more perfect solution for you and Ghost, but I do know that you made a decision you believed was best for GHOST, not easiest for you, and for that I give you lots of credit. Mary Oh how I agree with this. Autumn, I think you absolutely made the right decision about Ghost. A hard decision but the right one. As someone who is struggling with her first real dog - whom she loves fiercely - I completely understand how sometimes what is best for the dog may not be what is best for your heart. Last week, the behaviorist who we worked with emailed us to say she had found someone with 20 years of dog training experience who expressed interest in taking on Pan as a project to become her training dog (because of how smart and task-trainable she is), and we were seriously considering it (though I was wondering how reliable she'd be as a training dog, although maybe in more experienced hands... and with an eight-hour-a-day job...). However, the behavioralist explained some more details to her a few days ago, and I haven't heard back from either of them since (not that I'd blame the lady if she wasn't interested anymore). Meanwhile, since I got back, I've been actively working with Pan on behavior modification, and she's been really good except with resource guarding stuff with my husband (e.g., a few minutes ago he spilled some Sprite and she started licking it up and when he went to clean it, she growled - thankfully we diffused the situation nicely, he told her no, made her go into a down stay, and cleaned up the sprite, and then when he was done, he rewarded her for doing the down stay with a treat of another sort). She was so happy to see me come home on Sunday. She hasn't growled at me once. I've been using a muzzle in situations that I simply can't have go awry (e.g., bathing, getting bloodwork done). I just took her to get her bloodwork done today; we sent it off to Dr. Dodds at Hemopet. We should be hearing back shortly. Unfortunately our vet is VERY reticent to give me an Rx because she doesn't fit any set pattern; according to him it's as if she has dominance and fear aggression at once which doesn't make sense. And also he is worried that her bites, though superficial now, will get worse as she ages. He seems to be advocating PTS if there is nothing in the bloodwork. He's an older vet though. Supposedly the best in town according to everyone but this is Louisiana and nobody wants to medicate their pets... But I'm desperate honestly. If it means life or death for her I'll try anything. However we may have more time. There is a training facility here that does boarding which specializes in training aggressive dogs (positive reinforcement methods supposedly??? still playing phone tag) and I'm trying to see if they'll board her despite her issues when we have to go out of town in late May. And after several nights of crying to the husband, and explaining JUST HOW HARD IT WOULD BE for me to put Pan to sleep, AND OFFERING TO GET A SECOND JOB OVER THE SUMMER IF NECESSARY, he seems to be okay with us putting it off and trying some more things before we take that step. Even though she growls at him when he spills Sprite. Will report back with the results of the bloodwork. Wouldn't it be nice if they found something fixable... Oh and one more thing! About whether Pan is actually growling. Pan has a WIDE ARRAY of sounds that she makes. She's very talky. But when I say growl I mean growl. My husband thinks she's growling when she's making this noise I call "grovering" - but that ain't growling. It's grovering. It's close but different, when she does this she sounds like Grover from Sesame Street, it's a talking, almost, tail wagging, relaxed posture... Not a whine because it isn't sad. I try not to reward it too much because it freaks my husband out, but yeah, trust me, I know when she's growling and when she's not. I even trained her to raise the pitch of the grovering so my husband wouldn't mistake it by ignoring it at lower notes and paying attention and talking back when it goes higher into unmistakable not growling. Yes, my dog grovers. This is why when she's being good I say good MONSTER. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wendy V Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 She sounds fascinating, Pan; a real quick study. I own a dog that growls when you pat her sides or wipe off her feet, but it is not aggression, more talking I think. I hope you find a solution that works out for you which doesn't involve putting her down. Sounds like you're making progress. Please keep us posted. Cheers, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 Pansmom - It is very gratifying to see how much thought, research, effort, and emotion you are putting into making the best of this difficult situation, for yourselves and for Pan. I wish you the very best outcome for your efforts and for you all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildFlower Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 Pansmom - It is very gratifying to see how much thought, research, effort, and emotion you are putting into making the best of this difficult situation, for yourselves and for Pan. I wish you the very best outcome for your efforts and for you all. I must second this. I have been following the thread from the beginning. You are truly a patient and kind soul. I hope that things work out with Pan. And I will be continuing to follow the thread. I too hope that you get some good news from the blood work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 Sounds like you are doing a fantastic job in this sad, scary and emotionally draining situation. High marks to your husband for how he handled the Sprite incident. I don't think I'd give much weight to your vet's opinion; in my experience most vets, unless they are behavioral specialists, know little more about behavioral issues than the average dog owner. I hope Pan continues to improve and that one of these possibilities works out for you. Thanks for letting us know how things are going. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBlaylock Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 - snip - according to him it's as if she has dominance and fear aggression at once which doesn't make sense. Just curious, why do you say this doesn't make sense? - snip - Yes, my dog grovers. This is why when she's being good I say good MONSTER. Funny! You know, some dogs associate their name with negative situations, due to misuse of the dogs name during correction or punishment, which can sometimes lead to nervousness or agression when the name is used. Some trainers change the name when turning over a new leaf, to start associating the new name with positive experiences. If you ever went this route - changin the name - maybe you should consider "Grover" or "Groverina" sense she's a she. Pansmom - It is very gratifying to see how much thought, research, effort, and emotion you are putting into making the best of this difficult situation, for yourselves and for Pan. I wish you the very best outcome for your efforts and for you all. Amen! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbc1963 Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 My dog definitely grovers, too. He'll come stand by my computer when he wants me to hide his toy. If I don't acknowledge him and pay attention, he'll just start talking to me, to show me that he is displeased with my ignoring him. Grooorowrrroowwwrrroorrr. Maweeeereeewwgggrrrnphh. Mnerphphphphp. GrowroworowowrOWWWRrrrrgrawf. Definitely and distinctly different from growling. Even within the range of real growling noises, there are permutations. Buddy uses one specific growl for cats who dare to hang out in the yards across the street. It's a very low, sustained, "grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr." I can tell when he's dreaming about cats, because he'll make that same noise. Quite distinct from the normal growling to warn off approaching dogs or to tell me there's a stranger passing in front of our house. Mary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnewe2 Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 Funny thing with Mick, his "grovering" sounds like his warning growls. If you're paying attention to body language or watching his eyes you can def. tell the difference. But if you can't see his posture you could be confused. He confuses the rest of my pack too. So it's not just us humans that get confused with his sounds. He's a strange nut. That only makes us love him that much more! Guess we're gluttons for punishment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyer Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 You are impressive Pan's mom. I so wish a great outcome for you three. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pansmom Posted April 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2009 JBlaylock - I have read, somewhere amidst my research - that it is impossible for a dog to have both fear and dominance aggression. Yet I have also read that aggression is at root an anxiety disorder, that basically the reason the dog wants so desperately to be in control is BECAUSE of anxiety. So maybe it does make sense. I don't know. Everyone - bad news - this morning I was telling Pan to "be a good dog" as usual before I went to work and petting her snout as I've been doing more often lately, and she showed her teeth at me. I didn't know how to handle the situation, so the first time she showed her teeth I ignored it, then she made a low growl noise and I took my petting hand away (still leaving my other hand around her snout), and said "No ma'am." But then as I continued my usual routine it became very clear with a slow calm experimentation that she DID NOT WANT ME petting her (this started just as a quick pat on the head, what I usually do before I go). I was sitting down low beside her, which I don't always do, so maybe that was it. And maybe she was still weirded out from her vet appointment yesterday where they drew blood (???? I put her muzzle on her and had to hold her down and sweet talk her while they drew the blood so maybe she trusted me less this morning?) And maybe I screwed up by continuing to pet, ignoring her teeth-showing, but the way this situation ended is me standing up, letting go of her snout, and her snarling something awful. As soon as I got away though her tail was A WAGGING. She just wanted me away from her. Looking back on it now, I wish I had made her go into a down stay at the end of this, or put her away in a room, something to punish her (mildly) for her actions to show her that aggression does NOT give you what you want. But unfortunately in this case it did because I had to go to work, I was going to be late for an important appointment if I didn't. And on the other hand, I worry that anytime she silently shows her teeth I should listen so she won't amp the aggression UP like she did this time. But I hate the fact that she knows she can push us around like this. So I waffle between should I encourage her for lower level aggression (showing teeth without growling = better than biting???) or not tolerating any aggression at all. I mean I understand showing teeth is in a sense cocmmunicating, I don't like what you're doing, but on the other hand, why can't she just whine??? I would be happy to stop doing ANYTHING she didn't like if she'd just whine. So that was incident numero uno. Incident numero dos today = me eating tuna fish on the bed with the cat coming - as cats are wont to do - to see what this tuna fish cracker stuff was all about and Pan putting her front paws on the edge of the bed a foot away and snarling something awful at her. To me that is not as severe as the first incident with the petting because it was clearly HEY YOU GET AWAY FROM THAT, I'M NOT ALLOWED SO YOU'RE NOT. But still, annoying, that I can't snack in my own house. And Pan knows she is NOT NOT NOT supposed to be on the bed at all so that was bad also. Even if it was just her paws. This situation I handled better though; I just told her "NO, OFF" and made her get out of the bedroom (she knows "OUT" and it's easy enough to shut the door on her). COME ON EASY ANSWERS IN BLOODWORK. The kennel with experience in aggression is not answering or returning my calls. But my friend the veterinarian (someone I went to high school with who now practices veterinary medicine in Las Vegas) whom I wrote the other day, wrote me back saying the next thing she'd try is Clomicalm. Which is the medicine I was trying to get my vet to prescribe. But which he insisted was just for separation anxiety only. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pansmom Posted April 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2009 Funny! You know, some dogs associate their name with negative situations, due to misuse of the dogs name during correction or punishment, which can sometimes lead to nervousness or agression when the name is used. Some trainers change the name when turning over a new leaf, to start associating the new name with positive experiences. If you ever went this route - changin the name - maybe you should consider "Grover" or "Groverina" sense she's a she. She likes her name. We never say it when she's bad. We say "NO" or "No ma'am." We had heard about the turning over a new leaf name change thing so when we took her to the behaviorist we asked about the possibility of a name change (especially since "Pan" is from when we thought SHE was a HE when she was a pup) but the behaviorist said, no, she likes her name. The behaviorist was working at a large animal sanctuary and she pointed out how Pan would turn and her posture change in this relaxed attentive way when we'd call out her name from all the way across the field. But I do know she likes "Monster" better than "Pan" because I only say "monster" when she's being REALLY good and she's really happy and relaxed (like when we're running) Or if I need to say something to let her know everything is okay. Like when we did the bloodwork... she was being SO CALM (as dogs are wont to be, I assume, when muzzled) so I was like goooooooood monster over and over. Anyway, I don't think a name change is in order. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pansmom Posted April 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2009 You are impressive Pan's mom. I so wish a great outcome for you three. OK I just have to say this, your pup is PRECIOUS!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted April 23, 2009 Report Share Posted April 23, 2009 Yet I have also read that aggression is at root an anxiety disorder, that basically the reason the dog wants so desperately to be in control is BECAUSE of anxiety. So maybe it does make sense. I don't know. Pansmom, I am certainly not suggesting that a book would give you an easy fix, but you might want to seriously consider getting a copy of Patricia McConnell's "For the Love of a Dog". It is an absolutely fantastic treatment of the emotional aspect of dogs, based in science and her own extensive experience working with dogs with behavior issues. Among other things, she talks, in a way that is easy to understand, about what is going on with a dog's brain chemistry when he or she is experiencing different emotional responses to things that manifest themselves as behavior issues. There are two chapters in particular - one on fear and one on anger - that I think you would find extremely insightful right now. I know that you are stretched time wise and money wise right now, but if you could manage it, I think this small investment would be very much worth your while and would help you with Pan a great deal long-term. ETA: If you want to read this book without buying it, your local library can probably get it through interlibrary loan for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ooky Posted April 23, 2009 Report Share Posted April 23, 2009 Kudos to pansmom for sticking with this like she is, and her husband too. Pan is so lucky to have you! Best wishes to you and the monster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyer Posted April 23, 2009 Report Share Posted April 23, 2009 OK I just have to say this, your pup is PRECIOUS!!!!!!!! Yeah, I agree He's grown quite a bit since that avatar pic. Getting his mom's pointy snout. Must take new shots. I am reading "For The Love of The Dog" by P. McConnell right now. I had suggested you order her little book "The Cautious Canine". I just think she's terrific. Here's hoping the bloodwork will be telling. Flyer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flamincomet Posted April 23, 2009 Report Share Posted April 23, 2009 It is pretty much near impossible to tell what a 7 week old puppy will turn out like. You can watch the parents, which might have helped FI realize this pup/breeding might have to much energy for her but even with knowing what both parents are like you can never be quite sure what you're gonna get. Ah, but they had repeated that breeding at least 2 times before this particular litter (Which I did not know at the time, I thought it was repeated only once previously) and there have been a lot of complaints as to the overall stability of the offspring. I know someone personally who's dog was attacked by Ghost's brother from a previous breeding at a dog show. Of course I didn't find all this out until after I already had Ghost, but my point is, they had a very good idea that there was a pretty high chance that a puppy from that breeding would be far too much for a first time dog owner. Of course I never should have gotten him in the first place due to many reasons not even related to that, but that was before all I know now, and I have definitely come away from this learning a lot. The really sad thing is, they repeated the breeding AGAIN, even after all I told them about Ghost, simply because, "There was a need for puppies." *Headdesk* Anyways, sorry for the highjack Pansmom. Please keep us updated on the bloodwork and if you find out anything more on the person that may be willing to take Pan! I know you will make the best possible decision in the end, whatever you decide that may be. Autumn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ms.DaisyDuke Posted April 23, 2009 Report Share Posted April 23, 2009 ETA: If you want to read this book without buying it, your local library can probably get it through interlibrary loan for you. I'll send you my copy if you can't get it that way! I agree, those couple chapters could be quite insightful for you....but beware, you'll cry. Great book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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