Terrible Aggression - at my wit's end, please help!

[esox]

Has anyone else noticed that Pan's Mom has not posted anything in several days?

 

Esox

[Eileen Stein]

I never said "I can help" / "no I can't"

 

Your post #57:

 

>

 

IOW, you said you would take the dog for rehab if board members would get her to you and pay for food and vet bills. You would like to take her and pay vet bills and food yourself and keep her permanently, but your wife would object to that.

 

Your post #62:

 

>

 

I think a fair interpretation of this is "No, I won't take her at all."

 

you must have imagined that in your pasionately hateful ranting.

 

Cut that out right now.

[JBlaylock]

- snip - my fear agressive dog that wold not come out of her crate has gone on to get her CGC, therapy dog certification, has doen school demos, has traveled all over the country with me and more. I must have doen something right with her, and I never did any things you reccomend. - snip -

why do you present your methods as the best/only way to go?

 

First of all, good for you - no, GREAT for you. I'm truly happy that your dog was able to overcome her issues and is living a happy balanced life. Afterall, despite our differences here in this forum, is not that the ultimate goal regardless of the method? You succeeded, congratulations! That's a great thing.

 

Second, I did not say my methods were the only way to go. What did I say that gave you that impression? I did say that dogs are simple. As for "my methods" - they aren't mine, but belong to many many successful domestic and/or wildlife behavioralists/trainers, and they have worked wonders for me and many others in various playing fields, so I mentioned them, but I didn't say it was the only way to go. If your methods worked for you, that is very good, please share them. I believe the point of the OP was to ask for several opinions, not just one. I gave one, I did't ask anyone else not to give their opinions.

[Eileen Stein]

How is this not an emergency? This dog is in imminent danger of losing her home or death by euthanasia.

 

Behavioral crises can be just as emergent as broken bones, and are often more lethal for dogs.

 

Well, I can think of a couple of critical differences. First, the number of people who think that veterinary treatment for a broken leg is essential far outnumbers the number of people who think that consultation with a veterinary behaviorist, blood testing and drug treatment are essential for canine behavioral problems. Second, I think nearly everyone expects that veterinary treatment for a broken leg will have a near-100% success rate, while most people would not expect the same success rate from the behaviorist array. I suspect the OP's husband probably falls into the majority categories.

 

A valid argument would be, "I do not value my dog the same way that I would value a child." That is an entirely different argument from "we can't handle it" or "we have too much on our plates right now."

 

I think the first argument is implicit in the second.

 

I guess the bottom line is that I just don't understand how insisting on things the OP has already said are off the table for reasons beyond her control is going to do any good. She wanted some informed opinions about how to handle her problem, she got a number of varied opinions, she thanked us for them, and I assume she will do her best to make the best choice for all concerned. What more do we have a right to expect?

[Freeman 101]

 

As for "my methods" - they aren't mine, but belong to many many successful domestic and/or wildlife behavioralists/trainers,

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Would you mind naming the behaviorists that you are referring to?

[JBlaylock]

Your post #57:

 

<< I'm sure they would help get her to me. Are they going to also pay for the food and vet bills? If so, bring her, I'd love to help, and I know I would. Me, my two dogs, and my wolfdog would do our best to teach her how to be a happy dog, instead of a humanized psych patient. If it were up to me alone, I'd take her and pay for all of the vet bills and food, and keep her as a new bonded member of our family. However, my wife wouldn't be so fond of a fourth dog. >>

 

IOW, you said you would take the dog for rehab if board members would get her to you and pay for food and vet bills. You would like to take her and pay vet bills and food yourself and keep her permanently, but your wife would object to that.

 

Your post #62:

 

<< Put my money where my mouth is? I didn't suggest I'd take it, as much as I'd like to, you did. Not everyone has room for a bunch of dogs. My wife loves them, but isn't as devoted as I, and I'm not about to piss her off out of some childish dare from a clearly adolescent minded forumaniac I've never met and couldn't care less about the opinions of. What I suggested was that the person who already took the dog continues to have patience and not rule out methods just because of some idiotic posts here about how dog's can't be simple. >>

 

I think a fair interpretation of this is "No, I won't take her at all."

Cut that out right now.

 

Okay Eileen, I'm sorry. It was a heated response, when I said "bring her" I was being sarcastic, pointing out that nobody is going to step up and pay for all the costs associated with her. When I said, "My wife would not be so fond of a fourth dog" I wasn't saying because of the money issue, but that she would be nearly impossible to convince on a fourth dog period, even with the money covered by donations from folks here. Again, I thought I was making it clear that this was out of the question for me to take her, as much as i'd personaly love to. I think if we had this conversation face to face, where tone and facial expression are figured into the conversation, anyone would have picked up on that point. I honestly did not contradict myself, but now I do see how it looks that way.

[JBlaylock]

 

As for "my methods" - they aren't mine, but belong to many many successful domestic and/or wildlife behavioralists/trainers,

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Would you mind naming the behaviorists that you are referring to?

 

...are you serious? They are everywhere dude.

 

There are a great number more trainers I've met who have submissive obidient dogs using the "old and outdated" methods than there are sucessfull trainers I've met with submissive and obidient dogs using positive words and looks with no physical correction. Most people I've met who try these methods and claim their dogs are obidient end up embarrassing themselves as they try to prove it and the dog doesn't respond to something as simple as a recall, if there's even the slightest distraction there. Most people I've met who use the old methods have a dog who doesn't even need a leash outside, with children, squirels, birds, cars, etc running/rolling/flying by - extreemly obidient dogs. I'm not saying the other way doesn't work, just that I've never met a single trainer with a truly submissive or obedient dog who uses those methods, and I personaly know hundreds with great dogs who use the old and "outdated" way.

[Eileen Stein]

Okay Eileen, I'm sorry. It was a heated response, when I said "bring her" I was being sarcastic, pointing out that nobody is going to step up and pay for all the costs associated with her. When I said, "My wife would not be so fond of a fourth dog" I wasn't saying because of the money issue, but that she would be nearly impossible to convince on a fourth dog period, even with the money covered by donations from folks here. Again, I thought I was making it clear that this was out of the question for me to take her, as much as i'd personaly love to. I think if we had this conversation face to face, where tone and facial expression are figured into the conversation, anyone would have picked up on that point. I honestly did not contradict myself, but now I do see how it looks that way.

 

Fair enough.

 

But I think when you assumed no one would pay the costs you may have underestimated the commitment of folks on these Boards.

[BorderCollieSam]

I don't personally believe its morally right to post links to other websites of the same interest, however i was just searching for something on google and came up with the following posts within a thread:-

 

"My 13 week old mini doxie Anna Belle has a problem with biting fingers and toes. And its not just during playtime when we have our hands close to her toys.. she does it all the time. Sometimes she just nips at us, and sometimes she really tries to chew on my fingers. I have read a few ways to deal with it but none have really worked........

 

THEN ONE OF THE REPLIES:-

 

The "Yelp and Shun" method works on most dogs, but not all. Often, if the dog thinks that they're dominant, it doesn't work. In this case, what I've found works is pinning them on their back for a few seconds. When she starts to bite you, just pick her up and put her on the ground on her back. Hold her down gently until she stops struggling. Once she stops, lift your hand and praise her gently. If she tries again, put her on her back again. Keep doing this until she calms down.

 

AND THEN THIS REPLY FROM ANOTHER MEMBER:-

 

I disagree 100% with Melissa's alpha roll. (pinning the dog on it's back) You might really get nailed if you try that. It also sets you up for a power based relationship with your dog. This training method came into vogue with the Monk's of New Skete's books of the 1980s. It's no longer considered the best way to train. (Been there, done that, changed my tune.)

 

Very similar to JBlaylock techniques.....

[JBlaylock]

again, not my technique, just a technique I use. I didn't invent it, and I'm certainly not the only one who uses it. Now, it's similar but not the same. I wouldn't pick the puppy up after she quits struggling and start frantically praiseing her, that would cause confusion and mixed signlas, IMO. I said, gently speak to it the whole time your pinning it, step by step loosen your grip in response to the dog's fight, and once she's totally settled and your just petting her, stop and walk away. And again, that's just a general skeleton of a plan, it would obviously need to be altered on the spot to fit whatever the dog is doing. guidelines are just that, guidlines, and no method can be spelled out as a general step by step process with garunteed results, in my opinion.

[JohnLloydJones]

I disagree 100% with Melissa's alpha roll. (pinning the dog on it's back)

Ths alpha roll is probably one of the most misunderstood behaviours in the dog world. I have watched people do to to their dogs (at the dog park). I have watched my foster boy do it to Senneca. The similarity is both evident and also totally misleading. When a dog does it to another, the "roll" is done by the submissive dog and the "pinning" is done for emphasis. In fact all the real action is in the eye contact and body language. If you miss this part, you end up irritating the dog and achieving nothing useful.

[Northof49]

again, not my technique, just a technique I use. I didn't invent it, and I'm certainly not the only one who uses it. Now, it's similar but not the same. I wouldn't pick the puppy up after she quits struggling and start frantically praiseing her, that would cause confusion and mixed signlas, IMO. I said, gently speak to it the whole time your pinning it, step by step loosen your grip in response to the dog's fight, and once she's totally settled and your just petting her, stop and walk away. And again, that's just a general skeleton of a plan, it would obviously need to be altered on the spot to fit whatever the dog is doing. guidelines are just that, guidlines, and no method can be spelled out as a general step by step process with garunteed results, in my opinion.

 

Perhaps you would care to peruse this article. The myth of the alpha roll has been debunked so many times by those with degrees in animal behaviour etc, such as Dr. Ian Dunbar, and even the ones that orignially wrote this up, recanted the results a couple of years later, but people still seem to think it applies.

 

http://www.bogartsdaddy.com/bouvier/Traini...pha-roll_no.htm

 

pansmom - please read this article and please, please, do not "roll" your dog.

 

Here is another good article on this http://thejaegerfund.com/2008/04/20/beating-the-alpha/

[bcnewe2]

In fact all the real action is in the eye contact and body language. If you miss this part, you end up irritating the dog and achieving nothing useful

 

Have you been talking with Mick? He has he most wonderful disgusting look when he thinks someone/thing is dissing him. I could roll him, wouldn't do a thing. I've seen him get rolled by my sweet LGD, he still had that same disgusting look on his face but some how was smart enough to quit messing with the LGD.

 

Yes the alpha roll doen't do much for changing a dominat dogs behaviors and can really screw up a fearful dog.

 

I sure don't agree that dogs are simple beings, at least mine aren't. they amaze me everyday with what they teach me.

[JBlaylock]

ok. So, I'm supposed to now changed my entire belief system which has been very sucsessful for me, all because of one article written by one guy psted on some website called bogartsdaddy.com ???

 

The fact is, yeah the dog has to roll over on it's own to show submission, and the leader only pins for emphasis, but some dogs have been trained away from what their instinct tells them to do, by our human mistakes, and need to be taught to roll over in submission. Eventualy this results in the dog rolling on it's own. If one of my dogs does something bad, I just look at it and say "ahht! shhhh!" it the offending dog rolls over in submission without me even touching. This came from the training that did require physical contact at first.

[SoloRiver]

Well, I can think of a couple of critical differences. First, the number of people who think that veterinary treatment for a broken leg is essential far outnumbers the number of people who think that consultation with a veterinary behaviorist, blood testing and drug treatment are essential for canine behavioral problems. Second, I think nearly everyone expects that veterinary treatment for a broken leg will have a near-100% success rate, while most people would not expect the same success rate from the behaviorist array. I suspect the OP's husband probably falls into the majority categories.

 

OK, fine. Not a broken leg then. Let's say a complicated comminuted fracture in two legs with a 50-75% chance the dog would ever use those legs again. Folks may disagree about whether or not treatment is worth pursuing, but most would agree that the situation is an emergency. You might also argue that there are people out there who do not think a simple fracture is even worth treating, if we are worried primarily about "what people think" as our criterion for identifying emergencies.

 

Anyway, I am not interested in majority opinions -- I am interested in logical consistency. I'm a scientist, you're a lawyer -- maybe that's the rub?

 

There is a difference between what people think is necessary or sufficient when making choices about treatment, and what the consequences of those choices are for the dog. If the immediate likely consequences include abandonment or death, then the situation is an emergency whether someone thinks treatment is warranted or not.

 

It may be more helpful, perhaps, to look at the situation as analogous to any other chronic health condition, or degenerative disease, like cancer or osteoarthritis. You CAN muddle along without treating the problem, but you won't fix the problem that way. This discussion has gone far beyond the OP and her problem, but the immediate issue is that none of the options that the OP is willing to consider are actually going to address the problem, much less have any chance of fixing it, which is why she is getting the responses she is getting.

 

A valid argument would be, "I do not value my dog the same way that I would value a child." That is an entirely different argument from "we can't handle it" or "we have too much on our plates right now."

 

I think the first argument is implicit in the second.

 

Well, no, it's not. There is a BIG difference between "I won't" and "I can't." It really gets me when people claim that they "can't" when actually, they "won't." That is essentially what Jon Katz did when he made his argument for killing Orson. I respect people who "won't" and who stand behind their decisions. I have no respect for people who "won't" but can't face up to it and want to pretend that they "can't."

 

I guess the bottom line is that I just don't understand how insisting on things the OP has already said are off the table for reasons beyond her control is going to do any good. She wanted some informed opinions about how to handle her problem, she got a number of varied opinions, she thanked us for them, and I assume she will do her best to make the best choice for all concerned. What more do we have a right to expect?

 

I don't expect anything -- I rarely expect much of anything from people -- but that doesn't mean the discussion isn't worth having.

[JBlaylock]

the alpha roll doen't do much for changing a dominat dogs behaviors and can really screw up a fearful dog.

 

What happened to not making generalized statements? It sure worked great with all of the dominant dogs I've worked with. My 3 personal dogs were dominant at first, now they are more submissive and obidient than any other dogs I know.

[Laurae]

JBlaylock, does every problem you see present as dominance to you? Just curious...

[1sheepdoggal]

I just look at it and say "ahht! shhhh!" it the offending dog rolls over in submission without me even touching. This came from the training that did require physical contact at first.

 

Now it is stuff like this that really gives me pause to believe you have any credibility what so ever. And I will say right now, I have been handling and training dogs for 26 years now, and have the alpha roll in my tool box, and have used it on occation with good results, so Im not adverse to it. However Mr. JBlaylock, currently I have 7 dogs in my home, of large and varing breeds. If I say "ahht, shhhhh" the LAST thing any of them will do is roll over in submission. Just what have you done to your dogs?! Mine, and Id venture to say a good many other folks here on this board, can do that to thier dogs, and the dog will simply stop doing whatever it is that apparently offends us, and simply choose to go do some thing more appropriate. If my dog hit the floor and rolled over just because I said some thing to it in the form of a verbal correction, Id have to rethink my whole training regimine. That is just to sad for words.

[JBlaylock]

No. I don't view pooping or peeing on the carpet, chewing on furniture, barking at stuff outside through the window when I'm not right there next to the dog, or other various problems to be dominance issues.

 

I view issues such as growling, biting, jumping up on furniture, ignoring commands, barking at strangers or other dogs while on the leash or next to me, etc as dominance issues. Biting, for instance, may not be a problem brought about because the dog thinks it's the alpha - it may be a breed issue, like a hunting breed that is simply not under control and bites. However, in that case, I believe establishing yourself in the dominant role and the dog in the submissive role, providing proper discipline, lots of exercise, and effection at the right time will solve this problem; IMHO.

[Laurae]

So you view all aggression as dominance-based then?

[BorderCollieSam]

I must be honest here, the photos of those dogs in this thread do look a little vicious, perhaps he can work miracles afterall!

 

http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.p...mp;#entry292663

[JBlaylock]

Now it is stuff like this that really gives me pause to believe you have any credibility what so ever. And I will say right now, I have been handling and training dogs for 26 years now, and have the alpha roll in my tool box, and have used it on occation with good results, so Im not adverse to it. However Mr. JBlaylock, currently I have 7 dogs in my home, of large and varing breeds. If I say "ahht, shhhhh" the LAST thing any of them will do is roll over in submission. Just what have you done to your dogs?! Mine, and Id venture to say a good many other folks here on this board, can do that to thier dogs, and the dog will simply stop doing whatever it is that apparently offends us, and simply choose to go do some thing more appropriate. If my dog hit the floor and rolled over just because I said some thing to it in the form of a verbal correction, Id have to rethink my whole training regimine. That is just to sad for words.

 

I will say it again, if one of MY DOGS (not some random dog) does something bad, all i have to use is a look, a verbal command, and maybe the point of a finger, I may take a few steps towards the dog, and that offending dog will roll over in submission. They know what is acceptable and what is not, and they know how to submitt to the dominant leader: me. There is nothing sad about that. [edited by Moderator to remove personal insult.] You don't know me or my dogs, how dare you say it isn't so.

[JBlaylock]

I must be honest here, the photos of those dogs in this thread do look a little vicious, perhaps he can work miracles afterall!

 

http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.p...mp;#entry292663

 

Those are two of my personal three. I didn't say they are vicious, I said they were dominant dogs. Not any more, I put in the time, energy, and hard effort to provide what they needed to become happy, healthy, submissive, friendly dogs. I am not sure if you posted that as a way to try and bash me or if you posted it to support me...a bit confusing, but the later would be the more accurate result of your post.

[JBlaylock]

So you view all aggression as dominance-based then?

 

Not nessesarily. Like I said, the root of the problem with agression may lie in one place, but IN MY OPINION proper dominance training can always solve the problem, WHEN coupled with consistant corrective discipline, plenty of exercise, and affection at the right time.

[jdarling]

... all i have to use is a look, a verbal command, and maybe the point of a finger, I may take a few steps towards the dog, and that offending dog will roll over in submission.

 

Gee, do they pee themselves too? Or is that a dominance issue too?

 

I always wondered why some of the dogs I rescue would roll over every time I walked toward them or used a gentle verbal correction. I get it now. Bummer.