Terrible Aggression - at my wit's end, please help!

[Ninso]

Anyways, Pansmom, there are still things you can do to help a dog overcome fear issues. I hope you don't associate some exclusively human psycological issues with this poor dog and give up on it - as i am starting to see some here would do - and have it destroyed.

 

JBlaylock,

 

Are you trying to say that a dog can never have psychological issues? If so, what is that statement based on? I'm not sure whay you mean by "exclusively human psychological issues." Are you saying medical or brain chemistry issues can never be the cause of aggression in a dog? Are you saying that every case of aggression is simple and if the owners can't fix it it's just because they don't know what to do?

 

I'm also wondering what you would do to help a dog overcome fear issues, especially when (as it sounds here) the fear pops up out of the blue and there are no predictable triggers.

[NRhodes]

Pansmom, here is a link to a person who will take on a challenging dog to retrain: www.falawoods.com The dog may then be returned to you, rehomed, or may remain with him. He has a number of rescue dogs who will live out the remainder of their lives at his home. He has had dogs sent to him from all over the country. Check out the video on this page of him working with a fear aggressive dog: http://falawoods.com/videos.htm

[pansmom]

JBlaylock,

 

Are you trying to say that a dog can never have psychological issues? If so, what is that statement based on? I'm not sure whay you mean by "exclusively human psychological issues." Are you saying medical or brain chemistry issues can never be the cause of aggression in a dog? Are you saying that every case of aggression is simple and if the owners can't fix it it's just because they don't know what to do?

 

I'm also wondering what you would do to help a dog overcome fear issues, especially when (as it sounds here) the fear pops up out of the blue and there are no predictable triggers.

 

Actually, there are some predictable triggers, they're just not controllable or all identifiable: the ones that are left are sounds from outside, people or people with dogs walking in the front yard, the cats going near her while she has food or a toy, strange new smells from outside (especially of other dogs) on our clothes, the mailman (we pulled down the shades in the front rooms and that makes her less sensitive), barking approaching dogs (if they are just walking by onleash she is fine but if they are offleash god help us all, unless they are tiny dachsunds or corgis which she seems to have an affinity for)... Some of the triggers we've desensitized her to include sizzling food, the hair dryer, other dogs in neutral situations, smoke from food or boiling water... Once I found out all you have to do is give her something happy a couple of times while the sound is going on, I grabbed some cheez whiz and got to work. It's just life is complicated and ANYTHING new it seems sets her off. And sometimes we have no idea what has done it. The spray gun is the only thing that diffuses the situation nonviolently. I'm reluctant to stop using it even though it might give her a complex because all I have to do lately when she's freaking out is reach for it and she stops. I don't know. The problem is if we bring a baby into this situation, she could go berserk at all the new sounds and there won't be time to work with them both at once.

 

A general note: one person did private message me and ask some questions geared toward the possibility of rehabilitating her. One thing that may be important to note is that when she bites she JUST BARELY breaks the skin. And when I tell her "drop it" she does. It's like she's not trying to hurt me. No stitches have ever been needed, nothing like that. She's just really freaked out and over threshold. She was taken away from her mom too soon so it may be as simple as lack of bite inhibition. We tried to help her with that as a puppy but it doesn't seem to have stuck as well as it mightve if her mother had taught her.

 

The problem is she has a really strong prey drive and has killed squirrels before and sometimes growls and snarls at the cats, so I do not want her indoors with a baby around. And we have already put off our life plans for several months. Plus I'm thirty. And we're broke, except for our meager emergency savings which we have earmarked for emergencies relating to our future child... You get the idea. I love the dog, and I wish I could say I would do everything I could to save her, but my husband and I really do want kids so I am trying to be rational about this. We can't put off having kids indefinitely for the dog that maybe will, maybe won't, recover from her fear aggression... It sucks.

[pansmom]

Pansmom, here is a link to a person who will take on a challenging dog to retrain: www.falawoods.com The dog may then be returned to you, rehomed, or may remain with him. He has a number of rescue dogs who will live out the remainder of their lives at his home. He has had dogs sent to him from all over the country. Check out the video on this page of him working with a fear aggressive dog: http://falawoods.com/videos.htm

 

Where does it say he will do that and how much it costs? Or do I have to contact him personally? Do you know someone who has used him?

[Liz P]

A general note: one person did private message me and ask some questions geared toward the possibility of rehabilitating her. One thing that may be important to note is that when she bites she JUST BARELY breaks the skin. And when I tell her "drop it" she does. It's like she's not trying to hurt me. No stitches have ever been needed, nothing like that. She's just really freaked out and over threshold. She was taken away from her mom too soon so it may be as simple as lack of bite inhibition. We tried to help her with that as a puppy but it doesn't seem to have stuck as well as it mightve if her mother had taught her.

 

You have actually just told us that she does have some bite inhibition. A dog with no BI would be leaving deep wounds. A dog with excellent BI would not bite at all. A dog like yours, who from what is sounds like is leaving red marks and scratches, is trying very hard to not hurt you.

[NRhodes]

Where does it say he will do that and how much it costs? Or do I have to contact him personally? Do you know someone who has used him?

 

I don't think it says on his website. I just know this because I'm a client of his (I'm training one of my dogs for protection work). I like him, he's extremely knowledgeable about dogs and the mental stuff behind behaviors. I drive 3.5 hours to go there, although there are other people who train in protection work much closer to me, none near as good as Jon.

[Jedismom]

Actually, there are some predictable triggers the ones that are left are sounds from outside, people or people with dogs walking in the front yard, the cats going near her while she has food or a toy, strange new smells from outside (especially of other dogs) on our clothes, the mailman (we pulled down the shades in the front rooms and that makes her less sensitive), barking approaching dogs (if they are just walking by onleash she is fine but if they are offleash god help us all, unless they are tiny dachsunds or corgis which she seems to have an affinity for)...

 

All of the above are not unusual for a dog to react to. But what does she do when she reacts? When you say freak out ...what do you mean?

 

Some of the triggers we've desensitized her to include sizzling food, the hair dryer, other dogs in neutral situations, smoke from food or boiling water... Once I found out all you have to do is give her something happy a couple of times while the sound is going on, I grabbed some cheez whiz and got to work.

 

I can only go by what you write, but statements like this make me think there's hope for Pan.

 

The problem is if we bring a baby into this situation, she could go berserk at all the new sounds and there won't be time to work with them both at once.

 

If you were to bring a baby home you would need to work with her before the baby comes to desensitize her. I'm not saying that this is something you should do, just that it has been done before with crying baby dolls ...baby powder smells...etc.

 

The problem is she has a really strong prey drive and has killed squirrels before and sometimes growls and snarls at the cats, so I do not want her indoors with a baby around

 

There are lots of dogs with strong prey drive that don't like cats. My Cadi is one of them. Cadi is also leash aggressive. She is however, the most gentle dog in the world around people. It's Pan's reactivity in an aggressive way towards humans that's the issue.

 

You seem like such a nice person and Pan looks so adorable in her grad outfit.......your situation breaks my heart...bleedin' heart that I am

[vjp]

This thread was so intriguing/disturbing. Pansmom, I hope you keep us posted.

 

All I have to add is that, although it sounds like a rescue group won't take her, could you possibly ask one for guidance? It would at least be free. I had a puppy who was still not housetrained at 6+ months, and a member of the rescue group here predicted that the pup was nowhere near ready, that she needed another couple months. It was pretty much right on the mark.

 

I think I would try something homeopathic or herbal before I gave up. I actually do have a dog, finally mellow at 11, who had fear aggression. I made accommodations for her-- no outings, bought a muzzle, never let her greet visitors--but then, she never bit me either. I always wondered if she had some kind of autism; the outside world was too scary for her.

 

I hope that you can find a satisfactory resolution.

[pansmom]

All of the above are not unusual for a dog to react to. But what does she do when she reacts? When you say freak out ...what do you mean?

 

I mean, she starts barking in this frenzied scary aggressive way (not a high pitched fun play bark but a worried series of many barks, close together, with a growly tone), she may go rigid, ears back, and if you move toward her or in any way too fast she will growl or snarl (showing teeth) OR very occasionally if she really feels scared or trapped (like if it is a super new super strange sound or if you move toward her in such a way that it would be hard for her to get past you--for example, one of the front windows is kind of a nook and if she is at the window looking out and you go toward her at all she will feel trapped) she will turn and bite. The bites are barely puncture wounds. They break the skin, but just barely, she is definitely not TRYING to hurt us. But she is really freaked out. That's why it feels like an apology when she licks, it's almost like what have I done.

 

See it just happened again, the cat was playing with the bottom of the stove (for the first time in months) and she freaked out and started doing the low growly repeat-bark. Aggression like this not directed at us is a fairly common thing. This was fairly mild so I didn't need the spray gun or anything. I just said SHHHT and got up and walked over to the stove, had her go into a down stay a few feet away, and threw her food every time I did the same thing with my feet. After about five repetitions with treats I desensitized her to it. She learned if she didn't bark she got a treat. Now she's fine with it.

 

There are a few exceptions to this pattern. The first three are resource guarding related (which she doesn't do anymore), and another is half resource guarding half REALLY OVER THRESHOLDness when she went to intermediate training and basically got kicked out and told she could only have one-on-one sessions because she bit someone. But I will admit that after her freaking out over a pig's ear I was petrified when the trainer suggested we let strangers pet Pan. And Pan was looking at me during the meet and greet and she let the first person pet her very nicely (but I trusted her and Pan already knew her from the dog park), but the second person (whom I didn't know and whom I was petrified of Pan biting) she bit. But she was looking at me the whole time and I managed this very poorly because I *gave* her over to the trainer and was standing six feet away looking on trying not to look scared but so nervous I was even forgetting to praise her so... it was a bad situation. And she didn't bite that guy very hard either. He just shrugged it off. And on the third one-on-one session at the store, the trainer encouraged her to wander PetSmart on a long leash and she started approaching strangers and being very friendly. But that night when she came home she was nervous and that was the last time she bit me, one and a half weeks ago, at the window, when the FedEx guy came to drop something behind our screen door and I approached her to touch her back and tell her to settle down.

 

I can only go by what you write, but statements like this make me think there's hope for Pan.

 

I think so too, she's not TERRIBLE, really she isn't. She's just VERY spooky. The thing is she NEVER does this out of doors, when she's off leash or on a long leash (like a twenty foot training leash). Then she is confident. But indoors, that's another story. My husband simply won't trust her around kids. Also he knows how much work she will require as an indoor dog, and he knows I won't have time for that and children... Especially since I work, and he is really busy with his studies, only one year into a Master's program and planning to get his PhD...

 

I still plan to try to get her bloodwork done. But tonight, an old family friend's father offered to take her on at his farm in Mississippi, where there are no children (except when the old family friend visits, at which point the dogs can be put up if they're around). He loves dogs, and frequently adopts neglected or abandoned animals. She would be an outdoor dog, but we are considering it. She could roam freely and hunt squirrels in the forest (a favorite pastime in the backyard). She wouldn't even be in a fence. (This is a secluded farm in a wooded area, miles away from the nearest gas station, on a secluded country road. There are goats and chickens and pigs. The goats roam free.) Also, he just adopted two abandoned dogs, so she would have company and feel like she is part of a pack. I honestly think once she got over missing us - so heartbreaking because I honestly think she would, she whines when we leave and she isn't allowed to come with us - she would be happier, emotionally, to be free. We are thinking about taking her there in a couple of weeks to see how she likes it there. They suggested we just leave her there if she is okay, but I think I would want to introduce her to them first and bring her home and do that a couple times so I would know she felt comfortable there and liked the people and other dogs (she will get along with other dogs if introduced to them properly). I feel like if we didn't do that she might just run away. And I think maybe if we do this we should reintroduce her crate before then and bring that with us... I don't know. How to teach her this is her new home? God this is sad.

 

Anybody have experience with this kind of thing? I'd prefer taking her to a family that had experience with trying to cure fear aggression, but I definitely think this option is better than PTS. She is at heart such a sweetie. And so smart. I really don't want to do this but working with her takes at least three hours of my day, every day, and I am constantly wanting her to be something she isn't: a cuddly dog I can pet without fear that a noise or something else I can't control (or even overpetting or leaning over her the wrong way) will cause her to growl, a dog that will be okay around kids. And I know some people have said they're not sure rehoming is ethical in this case, but I don't really believe as an outdoor dog at a place with no kids she would put anyone in danger. She never like just runs at people she doesn't know to attack them. It's not in her nature. It's more in her nature to run up and bring you a stick to throw for her... Or lick you... Or roll over on her back... Or, when she's not confined indoors, or on a leash, to run away!

[SoloRiver]

You are obviously a very tenacious and dedicated owner who loves your dog and is willing to work hard to make her better.

 

That is why I think it is so sad that you do not consider a veterinary behaviorist to be an option in this case. It sounds very much like you and Pan could greatly benefit from visiting one.

 

You have already unfortunately been exposed to someone who was not very competent and who called him/herself a "behaviorist," spent your money, and did not get a workable solution to your problem. I really wish that you would consider seeing someone who is competent and could actually help you. There is nothing anyone here can do for you, without being able to see your dog (and also keep in mind that none of us here is a certified veterinary behaviorist either), other than sympathize with you, which I do. But if you really do want to give Pan one more GOOD chance, it is your best bet.

 

If you truly do not want to do "everything" to help this dog, if it is not in you, if it is not your priority, that is your decision and I respect that. But if you DO want to try all that you can, please know that a veterinary behaviorist could really help you change things for the better in major, tangible, and important ways. An appointment is not cheap, but it is not on the level of surgery or anything like that either -- it will probably run you between $150 and $300, depending on where you are, and will include a medical work-up, a full history, most likely hours of observation (behaviorist visits are long), and phone/email support pretty much indefinitely afterward. Really, as far as vet care goes, it's a very, very good deal.

 

It sounds like you love your dog and want the best for her, so if you really want the best for her and to know that you did all you could, please see a certified veterinary behaviorist. There is a list of diplomates at http://www.veterinarybehaviorists.org.

 

On the other hand, it sounds like you have already made up your mind that you will not keep Pan, and in my experience, when people are already thinking that way then there is little hope for the dog. I do not think that the farm situation you describe would be very good for her, but that is because I know that my own anxious dog would be miserable in such a context. If I were in your position, and did not want to keep the dog, and she is as aggressive and unpredictable as you say, my decision would be to euthanize the dog. Personally, I think a kind death would be better than abandonment as an outdoor dog, especially if she is generally social and wants to be around people.

 

I have an anxious dog who is not trustworthy around strangers. I adopted him while I was in graduate school completing my PhD, and can safely say that deciding to keep and rehabilitate him facilitated real delays in the completion of my thesis. I was inexperienced and unsure and quite convinced at first that I had bitten off much more than I could chew. We were lucky enough to meet a wonderful certified veterinary behaviorist who gave me the tools to start turning things around. It took a lot of time and effort and more money than I really had to spend at the time since I was living on a grad student stipend. However, since my experiences working with Solo led directly to a postdoctoral fellowship in genetics at UCSF, which in turn facilitated a move to the west coast and subsequently my meeting and marrying the love of my life last fall, I guess I can also safely say that Solo paid me back, not that he owed me anything.

 

Solo is a very special dog. His personality is absolutely unique, it is deep and complex, and to me is a totally separate thing from this temperament, which is imperfect. He is brilliant and absolutely loyal. I have no doubt that he would lay down his own life for me without hesitation. He is who he is, and I decided long ago that I would not wish he was something he will never be, and decided to love him for who he is (which honestly, is a lesson that probably prepared me well for marriage). That made life much, much easier. I adore this dog and would no sooner give him up than cut off my own arm; what we have gone through together has brought us closer than I will probably ever be to another dog. I will be looking for another Solo for the rest of my life.

 

Like you, I plan to start a family as soon as possible (I am 36, so it's now or never). Solo and my two other Border Collies are not going anywhere, I can promise you. Yeah, it'll be harder to have a family with Solo (and the other two dogs) around, but it isn't rocket science. We'll make it work.

 

You sound smart and determined and I think you could probably make it work, if you want to. If you don't really, that's your call, I would not expect everyone to make the choices I have made. But if you want to, you probably could. Just, if you do, please get good professional help.

[Tommy Coyote]

How about a university veterinary school? Do they have behaviorists on staff?

 

I just thought of that because it might be cheaper and you can still get really good people to talk to.

[Jack & Co.]

If you truly do not want to do "everything" to help this dog, if it is not in you, if it is not your priority, that is your decision and I respect that. But if you DO want to try all that you can, please know that a veterinary behaviorist could really help you change things for the better in major, tangible, and important ways. An appointment is not cheap, but it is not on the level of surgery or anything like that either -- it will probably run you between $150 and $300, depending on where you are, and will include a medical work-up, a full history, most likely hours of observation (behaviorist visits are long), and phone/email support pretty much indefinitely afterward. Really, as far as vet care goes, it's a very, very good deal.

 

Melanie, this describes my experience. The veterinary behaviorist that Jack and I saw was $200 for a two-hour consultation. Yes, it was a lot of money and it hit us right at Christmas and I have a kid in college but it was well worth it. Jack has separation anxiety and just speaking with the VB helped relieve a lot of the stress that our whole family had because of Jack's anxiety. I filled out a huge pile of paperwork (prior to the appointment) that asked questions about every aspect of his life (and ours) and then for 2 hours, sat and discussed my dog with someone who had much better ideas than I did. I was surprised at the things he pointed out that our family unknowingly did that contributed to Jack's separation anxiety.

 

My regular vet had prescribed Clomicalm for Jack but the VB bumped the dosage up and we saw positive results in the following weeks. I have a generic prescription at Walmart and it's very reseasonably priced. The VB also had changes for our family that we had to make to help Jack on the road to recovery.

 

The veterinary behaviorist wants phone calls every 2 weeks or so and when I call we discuss how Jack is doing. He has good suggestions for me and it's also nice to be complimented on the progress he is making.

[esox]

I googled animal behaviorists and found a group in Louisiana. Veterinary Behavior Consultations LLC. One of the vets on the staff specializes in owner directed aggression.

Here's the link.

 

http://www.veterinarybehavior.com/index.html

[vjp]

How about a university veterinary school? Do they have behaviorists on staff?

 

I just thought of that because it might be cheaper and you can still get really good people to talk to.

 

 

A BC here began biting her owner every time the phone rang. A veterinary behaviorist from NC State helped break the habit [it began after a move to a new home], and it was not cheap. But her recommendations worked.

 

Does anyone here think that Pan could be her outside dog, in a fenced yard? Short term solution?

[pansmom]

Two things:

 

(1) Whatever we do has to be a joint decision between me and my husband. After the amount of time and effort and money we've already spent, my husband says we can't spend any more. Sure, we could go into debt for the dog and continue to put off our life plans, but it would take two of us being dedicated to her, a united front. I have been trying to "fix" Pan for months now, but it hasn't worked. Every time we get to a point where I think she might be, she does something aggressive that alienates us again. So he has reached his threshold, and I can't take her to a veterinary behaviorist. I wish I could, but I asked him about it after everyone recommended it so highly here, and he said no because it's not guaranteed and we've already spent so much. I was still hopeful when I posted this at first, and honestly in the back of my head I'm still hopeful that while I'm gone for this week he'll rediscover his trust in her, but the truth is, they probably won't and I'm not going to fight my husband on this: he does rank above the dog in my heart, and my continued devotion to her is already causing tension. There are two of us who have to live with her.

 

(2) From what I understand, Pan came from country dogs, they said her mother was a working border collie on a farm, and I feel like our whole life maybe we have been fighting to domesticate her perhaps more than is possible. She loves running in open fields and herding and hunting and it seems to me that a slow introduction back into that kind of situation might actually be good for her. I think euthanasia so she won't go through a period of mourning for losing her old family and bonding to a new one is making the mistake of humanizing her too much. Yes, she's smart - terribly smart - but I think she'd rather spend that smarts on hunting and wandering a wide open territory than pet tricks. When we go bicycling, she tries to stalk CARS! I mean here is a dog who wants to work and hunt constantly (see the issues with the cats). I think if we put her in this other situation her instincts will kick in, and she will get to USE them instead of working against them constantly. I think she'd be a billion times happier and not have time for all these neuroses.

 

If it didn't work, and she was still ugly to people in this other situation, we would go retrieve her from it. This is a family friend, someone we keep in contact with. I would like to give her a chance to be happy the natural way.

[pansmom]

Does anyone here think that Pan could be her outside dog, in a fenced yard? Short term solution?

 

I thought about that. I did. I'd love to hear what people think. We have a six foot privacy fence. There are squirrels out there... and birds and trees and bushes. It's just the yard is only as big as the house say, and though there is wildlife back there, I think she'd get bored and miss us. I could still bicycle with her once a day and work with her out in the yard. Then she wouldn't be moved to a new locale. But the thing is the last time we were letting her stay in the backyard for more than an hour at a time, she was wild when she came back in and wouldn't listen. And all she wanted to do was go back out and play with the squirrels (I think the BC term is she got OBSESSED with them). So it's EITHER inside or outside; she can't spend more than a couple hours out there every day and be expected to come back in and be civil.

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

(2) From what I understand, Pan came from country dogs, they said her mother was a working border collie on a farm, and I feel like our whole life maybe we have been fighting to domesticate her perhaps more than is possible. She loves running in open fields and herding and hunting and it seems to me that a slow introduction back into that kind of situation might actually be good for her. I think euthanasia so she won't go through a period of mourning for losing her old family and bonding to a new one is making the mistake of humanizing her too much. Yes, she's smart - terribly smart - but I think she'd rather spend that smarts on hunting and wandering a wide open territory than pet tricks. When we go bicycling, she tries to stalk CARS! I mean here is a dog who wants to work and hunt constantly (see the issues with the cats). I think if we put her in this other situation her instincts will kick in, and she will get to USE them instead of working against them constantly. I think she'd be a billion times happier and not have time for all these neuroses.

I don't think this is going to be a good situation for her. She needs structure and someone who is willing to work with her and help her, perhaps medication to help her brain figure life out or take away all those grizzlies that are hiding behind every strange noise. A dog with too much smarts set free to roam at will, will get into more trouble than they're worth. Deer, horses, cows, chickens, other peoples livestock and natural wildlife. If her prey drive is as high as you say, then she's going to be looking for trouble, and probably find it. Unless this family friend is going to train her on livestock and work her that way, just letting her run free is a recipe for disaster. Where I grew up, loose dogs harassing wildlife got shot, no questions asked. just my opinion though.

[Wendy V]

she can't spend more than a couple hours out there every day be expected to come back in and be civil.

 

Very good point, pm. Most dogs, left to their own devices, do not develop behaviors that are concurrent with our requirements.

[Lenajo]

You ask about rehoming her "in the country"

 

I'll answer - can you handle the liability? People in the country also sue if they get bitten, and I can't think of a faster way to ruin a friendship is having the friend bit by your dog, or his home/property in jeopardy because of a lawsuit. And what if the person isn't as savvy as you have been in not tripping her triggers? What if its one of those country kids whos bitten when she runs into them and feels cornered as she roams unattended on the property?

 

This dog has *proven* human aggression. Regardless of reason - whether you seek treatment or not, or solutions is found or not - that will never change. The line has been crossed and you can't go back.

 

As I see it you have 3 options - keep the dog and fix her (if possible), keep the dog and manage her strictly (difficult), or euthanize her. Anything else is morally and ethically not acceptable in my book.

 

I'm very sorry for the dog and for you. There are no easy answers.

[pansmom]

Very good point, pm. Most dogs, left to their own devices, do not develop behaviors that are concurrent with our requirements.

 

Yeah, but okay, can I get some thoughts from everyone about this? What do people think about leaving her outside for good HERE provided she gets lots of supervised play and training and a long bike ride a day? I work in the yard a lot on the weekends and can put her on the long leash when I am up front so she can chill with me (we already do this anyway).

 

Thanks so much for reading and giving your thoughts on what I know is a very difficult and sad situation. I'm just trying to do my best with the resources I have.

[Sue R]

Late to this and, admittedly, I haven't read the entire thread but kudos to you for trying to figure out how to make a safe and fulfilling life for Pan.

 

No, no, no to the suggestion to take her to a farm to "roam free and chase squirrels" and especially not since there are also livestock (goats) present and unconfined. That is a disaster waiting to happen and will do nothing to improve her life.

 

The suggestion to make her a "yard dog" with appropriate shelter and lots of interaction sounds like a possibility. Many happy and content dogs live in kennel/yard situations, although that's not my first choice and the thought of a "lone dog" in that situation may be an issue - dogs are, after all, very social animals. But, if she has sufficient interaction, play, training, fun, companionship with you and your family, I would seriously consider giving this a try since being outside is a comfortable place for her.

 

Very best wishes in working out the best possible solution for all concerned.

[Lizmo]

You ask about rehoming her "in the country"

 

I'll answer - can you handle the liability? People in the country also sue if they get bitten, and I can't think of a faster way to ruin a friendship is having the friend bit by your dog, or his home/property in jeopardy because of a lawsuit. And what if the person isn't as savvy as you have been in not tripping her triggers? What if its one of those country kids whos bitten when she runs into them and feels cornered as she roams unattended on the property?

 

This dog has *proven* human aggression. Regardless of reason - whether you seek treatment or not, or solutions is found or not - that will never change. The line has been crossed and you can't go back.

 

Ditto Wendy. I was bitten by a dog on my bike when I was younger. When my dad went over to the owners to tell them their dog had bitten a person, they told my dad the dog was getting rehomed to "a farm out in the country where he could run and never meet any children".

 

I'm sorry you're having to deal with this. I hope the solution is the best one for the dog.

[Journey]

Hmm, hand over a dog that has bitten, not only you but also a stranger? Let her "roam free to chase squirrels in the country"? You know, if a dog like that happened to roam on my property I'd shoot it first and not ask any questions. IMO, you are simply shrugging off "YOUR" responsibility, euthanise the dog instead of putting her or any other person in jeopardy. Thinking with your heart will not help, be responsible.

[pansmom]

This thread was so intriguing/disturbing. Pansmom, I hope you keep us posted.

 

All I have to add is that, although it sounds like a rescue group won't take her, could you possibly ask one for guidance? It would at least be free. I had a puppy who was still not housetrained at 6+ months, and a member of the rescue group here predicted that the pup was nowhere near ready, that she needed another couple months. It was pretty much right on the mark.

 

I think I would try something homeopathic or herbal before I gave up. I actually do have a dog, finally mellow at 11, who had fear aggression. I made accommodations for her-- no outings, bought a muzzle, never let her greet visitors--but then, she never bit me either. I always wondered if she had some kind of autism; the outside world was too scary for her.

 

I hope that you can find a satisfactory resolution.

 

She's already been on Rescue Remedy (no effect), Composure (a vitamin B complex, no effect), and latest Quiet Moments (a vitamin B complex + tryptophan, which releases serotonin in dogs) for over a month. QM seemed to help a great deal at first, but then it was as if she got used to it. I upped the dose (it wasn't going to hurt her - it said you could up it), and it helped for a bit and then stopped helping as much. But she's still on the Quiet Moments twice a day, just in case it is working.

 

I think the plan right now is to gradually move her to being an outside dog in the short term (we're working on that today--she is still excited every time I say "outside" so I don't think she's unhappy), but my husband still wants to send her to the friends'. He thinks she won't be happy in the back yard and will eventually dig out. For those who are worried about biting, according to the family friend, the farm is EXTREMELY secluded, as in nothing else within a 5 mile radius, just woods and woods and woods and a quiet country road. We are at least going to take her there to visit and check out the area. As for goats, she wouldn't try to kill one. All she wants to do with livestock and even other dogs bigger than her is bark and run circles around them. Anything bigger than her she doesn't want to hunt, just herd (or run away). We told them once she acclimatized to the new surroundings that they might be able to use her to work with the livestock and they were interested. Again, she's a scaredy cat. And it's not like she's mauling people. She growls and snarls and yes, very occasionally bites, but she does have some bite inhibition as others have pointed out, barely breaking the skin. She just can't keep snarling and growling at us and our cats and one day our kids. It is psychologically difficult for us to live like this with her indoors. And again she has never bitten anyone outdoors. She just dodges and bolts and tries to get you to play. (We know all this because we often take her to the country where my husband's parents live, though they live in way too close proximity to other people with families and kids for us to rehome her there.) And note: the behaviorist that worked with her before thinks we should try to rehome her in a working location, calling the bites "nips," and the trainer we used let her roam free around customers on a long leash (to whom she was very polite and friendly) even though she had seen her bite(nip?) that stranger in a stressful situation two months before, so either everyone who's met the dog has really bad judgment - along with me and my husband, who live with her - or the general consensus of those who have met her is that this is a real possibility.

 

Thanks everyone for all your input. I appreciate it.

[ErinKate]

Late to the topic---usual disclaimers about not reading everything...

 

Rehoming to the country is not a solution by a long shot. Working dogs have a close, trusting relationship with their owners. It is not going to be an instant fix just to toss her out there because you think she might herd. Not to mention, the more she is turned out, the less she is going to be handled. The problem will grow. They may live way out, but I would be willing to bet the get visitors, and mail. Herding is not some magic fix. She is not being aggressive becuase she wants to herd, face it. If you are running her like you say, her energy should be handled.

 

Honestly, I TOTALLY understand you and hubs having different views, and I would not challange my relationship over a dog either. In today's times, no one can afford to go willy nilly over a dog that seems to keep backsliding. I personally would have the dog euthanized. Deep down you don't trust her, your husband doesn't trust her, neither of you is fit to retrain her. I would NEVER bring a child into that. As sad as it is, you can't rehome an dog with the aggression you discribed.

Some dogs are just off. Just like people. Not fit to be in society.

 

Also just wanted to say, a strong prey drive is not a reason for aggression. My JRT was a true hunting dog. What he would do to quarry was scary crazy. Had to be physically removed, had no call off. But he lays like a fluffy pillow when my 2yr old climbs over him. I do not allow the baby to test him, but let's face it, there have been plenty of times she deserved a warning growl at least. Never. Not in a million years. Work is work, family time is just that.

 

Good luck with whatever you do. I know it really must be a hard time for you.

Keep us posted.