sometimes I feel like giving up...

[red russel]

In the process of looking for my last pup, beyond looking at dogs and bitches that I admire, I kept an eye on the following links.

 

http://www.osds.org/index.html

http://www.usbcha.com/

http://www.saskstockdog.com/

http://stockdogging.blogspot.com/

http://www.nebca.net/frontpage.html

http://www.canadianbordercollies.org/

http://www.stockdog.bc.ca/

http://www.albertastockdog.com/

http://www.ontariobordercollieclub.com/

http://www.manitobastockdog.com/

http://www.mpbca.com/

http://www.nestockdog.com/

http://www.texassheepdogassoc.org/

 

This is just a start. There are many more associations. From here you can find trainers and open handlers all over North America that will have litters throughout the year. There is also a plethora of top hands across our continent that have websites of their own speaking to their dogs, pups, youngsters coming up... Takes some time and leg work. For my purposes I need to see the youngster I am considering and be pretty familiar with it's parents so I'll drive a considerable ways if necessary. I'm typically interested in dogs between 12 - 18 months so I have a somewhat better idea of what I'll have to work with. I don't know that it will matter if your intentions are sports related.

 

hope this helps.

dave

 

www.leadmeontraining.com

[Rave]

Great resource with names and sometimes links to working breeders:

http://www.littlehats.net/find-puppy.html

 

It's nowhere near a comprehensive list, but it is a good start.

[Conner22]

If i understood the concerns of the posts, it was that the sports BC would become the majority of the bc's bred, diluting the pool with absolutely no talent. Part of the end result would be working dogs bred only for working people, which limits breedings and amount of GOOD breedings since really, how many dogs can one own. My entire point- what I wanted to express- was that sports bred has yet to take over, and many are not turning out as good as desired (over the top/barking/spinning/scrambling). Sports people are looking more at working dogs, but the visibility of said dogs to OUTSIDERS is very limited and sparse/hard to find. Again, we are city people in an *unknown* world- that of livestock and herding.

[Conner22]

wow, awesome posts. thanx! was typing that last message when you guys posted that info.

[Lenajo]

Asking the producers of good pups to make the numbers higher plus more publically available is to ask them to change the very nature of what made them good breeders in the first place. Producing *quality* Border Collies is not possible done in mass, and why advertise to the "public" when in general that's the last place those pups need to be.

 

You don't go to McDonalds for a first class, local, grass fed steak. You find the latter through careful networking, research, and leg work. Your choice not only puts food on your table of quality, but supports the industry behind it.

 

That's what it comes down too. Choice, and being a grown up who can delay gratification because they can see beyond "I want".

[Mark Billadeau]

wow, awesome posts. thanx! was typing that last message when you guys posted that info.

It's not hard to find these associations. Try searching for "stock dog" OR "sheep dog" association

[alligande]

I am fully onboard with the concept that Border Collies should only be bred for their working ability. What I think is important to address is why people do not know what that is. Some one much further back in the topic posted about the difference between the UK and the States about knowing what a Border Collie does, is thanks to TV shows like One Man and His Dog. I have met people with Border Collies who are clueless as to what they are capable of, I meet people when I am out walking my dogs who ask really odd questions about their abilities and looks. Even my husband who grew up in rural Vermont and had always admired the breed had never really seen them work until we were on holiday in New Zealand, then there was no looking back. I have tried explaining to people that it is not what they look like that makes them a sheepdog it is their actions and abilities that make them a sheepdog, but I could be talking to a stone for all the difference it makes.

Westminster, agility, flyball, frisbee, dock diving etc all make it to TV so that is what people see these dogs doing, as much as I found it fascinating low budget production trials on RFD-TV are not promoting what these dogs are bred for to the general public.

And as a side note, we are a pet home first, sports home second, with rescue dogs and will probably never get a dog directly from a breeder.

[Conner22]

Asking the producers of good pups to make the numbers higher plus more publically available is to ask them to change the very nature of what made them good breeders in the first place. Producing *quality* Border Collies is not possible done in mass, and why advertise to the "public" when in general that's the last place those pups need to be.

 

You don't go to McDonalds for a first class, local, grass fed steak. You find the latter through careful networking, research, and leg work. Your choice not only puts food on your table of quality, but supports the industry behind it.

 

That's what it comes down too. Choice, and being a grown up who can delay gratification because they can see beyond "I want".

I thought part of the concern was that the GOOD producers would start producing less pups as supply/demand for a working bc went down. That if i wanted to support a good working breeder, i'd buy a pup from them....

its a little to late to prevent these dogs from ending up with the public/pet homes (sports). but not to late to set a standard, or to send an ACCURATE message. if sports breeders who have bred for maybe 5-10yrs can relay their versatality message in such a short while to such an extent- why can't herding proponents who've bred 15-20rs do it?

I am not asking them to produce more, but to become more visible. why do we buy things? how do we learn things, why do we try them, because 90% of the time its suggested to us. Propaganda and persuasion stuff. Messages getting accross.

[Conner22]

It's not hard to find these associations. Try searching for "stock dog" OR "sheep dog" association

haha- proof of ignorance- never did that..... i always type in border collie or breeder, or such....!

Again, city person in unknown world!

[juliepoudrier]

Also consider that the USBCHA National Finals are on the east coast this year, Sept. 18-26 in Middletown, VA, at Bellegrove Plantation. I have no idea how far that is from you Shaneen, but if there's any way to swing going even for a day, and especially one of the last two days, you will see some of the top working dogs in the country. You can meet handlers, who are also breeders, and see dogs that might fit the type you're looking for. I hope you can arrange for the time off to make just that one trip.

 

If you do make the trip, there will be people from this forum there. I'm sure they'd be happy to make a few introductions if you'd like.

 

As for websites, I think the "younger" and more tech-savvy handlers/farmers are doing that now more than in the past. But some just aren't going to have websites, and if you're interested in their dogs, you'll just have to contact them directly. Especially for those who farm full time or who trial a lot and also travel the country giving clinics (like the Knoxes), keeping up a website probably isn't feasible. I can assure you that these folks aren't trying to be difficult to find; they just are doing things the way they've always done them, for better or worse.

 

And it's true that many of these same folks don't breed lots of litters, just as you encountered with the person you contacted. But if you are persistent, and if you meet a roadblock you try to work your way around it by asking for yet more names, you'll eventually find someone with a pup you want.

 

I'd hope that people like you and others who have found good working breeders would get the word out among your associates, because as you noted, word of mouth is important. I realize that means you have to have a good experience finding a working breeder, but there are several folks in PA and nearby states who come to mind. NEBCA (Northeast Border Collie Association, link already posted) has a members list I believe and that would be a starting point. You can also go to the USBCHA website (www.usbcha.com) and look at the list of directors and contact the directors in whose district your state falls. Either of the directors (or both) should be able to point you to decent breeders within (and outside) their districts. And I think you now have at least some decent resources to try. Perhaps you can even share these resources with your sport friends who might be looking for a pup.

 

Is every working breeder going to be willing to sell to you? Probably not, and if that's the case, don't take it personally. Some will sell to non-working homes and some won't. But if they've gotten to know you a bit, either in person or through e-mail, you'll have a better chance than someone who just appears out of the blue wanting a pup. Some have a list of waiting working homes that is quite long, so it's not about who you are so much as how many are already waiting.

 

Dave gave you a good starting point, and as Mark noted, you can find other associations by searching something like stockdog. There's a Georgia Stockdog Association, Virginia Border Collie Association, Land of Lincoln Border Collie Association (I think that's their name); Kentucky Border Collie Association; and I know there's one in TN and another in WI/MN whose names escape me. The western states also have individual associations.

 

If you google the names I gave you earlier, their websites should come up. And if you want to know who on this forum trials and trains working dogs or farms, try checking posts in the training or livestock management discussions. The "ask an expert" section is manned by various experts over time, and any of the people who are the answering correspondents in that section can be considered good breeders.

 

J.

[Mark Billadeau]

..... i always type in border collie or breeder, or such....!

"Border Collie" to the general public describes a dog that has a particular look (AKC mentality). To find a dog for a particular function (working bred dog) you need to at least add qualifiers that limit your search to the function.

[Brad]

Its not about slick websites, per se, but visibility. I'm gonna make a guess that 90% of agility/pet homes are city people, who have NO knowlege or access to the herding world, except on the surface.

 

This is a good point. When I first became interested in BCs, I didn't even know there was a herding world. I wanted a BC, and I wanted to play dog sports. It was obvious to me at the time that I NEEDED a sport dog. What other kinds where there? And Googling for BC breeders gave more hits to sport or "versatility" breeders than I could count.

 

My first BC was a BYB back east, that luckily saw me get a great dog (who may even have working ability). For my second BC, I now knew I needed a working dog, but really had no idea where to find one, especially in Canada. I go to every local trial and after a year, I did stumble across a pup (simply by accident) that comes from good lines.

The point being, for most people getting their first BC, the herding world is a hidden secret world that takes a fair bit of work to find, once you even realize you need to find it.

I'm glad I did, and as someone that primarily does sports (agility, flyball, disc), I would not get a BC that wasn't from working lines.

[Mark Billadeau]

If someone has advice on how to find a trial that seems to be in a radius of under 2-3 hrs, its MAYBE feasible.

Depending upon where in NWPA you live this one may be within 2-3 hrs.

 

Borders on Paradise SDT

May 7-9, 2010

Turbotville, PA

[Brad]

"Border Collie" to the general public describes a dog that has a particular look (AKC mentality). To find a dog for a particular function (working bred dog) you need to at least add qualifiers that limit your search to the function.

 

I think this is exactly the problem outlined. In the beginning, I would never qualify a search with "working bred", I'd never even heard the term. I wanted one of them real smart black and white dogs. And unfortunately, the mediocre ones are too readily visible. I can find a litter of BCs at any given point on my local www.used<cityname>.com. Googling will do the same.

Building a better, or more public facing image of working dogs would certainly help!

[red russel]

This site has most of the trials that will happen across North America... there for the looking. You can decide which is within range for you.

 

http://www.usbcha.com/upcomingtrials.htm

 

dave

[ShoresDog]

Just a tiny comment.... I wish everyone could see a fantastic trial, like Soldier Hollow, and hear a Ray-Crabtree-class announcer giving commentary on what the dogs are doing, how they are bred solely to do their work and not to look pretty, why that's so marvelous, why this philosophy of breeding leads to such wonderful dogs who will excel in every other venue. It could be the best reality show ever! I've never been able to explain it with words and arm-waving, but seeing is believing, and all the comments that us folks in the peanut gallery hear prove it.

[Ooky]

Just a tiny comment.... I wish everyone could see a fantastic trial, like Soldier Hollow, and hear a Ray-Crabtree-class announcer giving commentary on what the dogs are doing, how they are bred solely to do their work and not to look pretty, why that's so marvelous, why this philosophy of breeding leads to such wonderful dogs who will excel in every other venue. It could be the best reality show ever! I've never been able to explain it with words and arm-waving, but seeing is believing, and all the comments that us folks in the peanut gallery hear prove it.

 

 

I may be totally off base, but I don't understand why Animal Planet has the mostly lame programming it does, and doesn't have coverage of some of the big trials. I agree it is thrilling and I think showing these on tv would be one really good way for "city people" to learn more about what these dogs really do. And/or a "reality show" focusing on maybe 4-5 farms with stockdogs and the stuff that goes on on the farm - chores, training sessions (laugh at the antix of that show bred collie, followed by a serious discussion with the trainer about breeding for working ability and the stock needing to come first so they won't be gioving that dog lessons anymore, later compare to the smooth moves of a working bred pup), lambing, cattle drives, worming, going to or hosting clinics, etc etc. I think there would be enough drama/commentary/cool scenery and neat action to fill up a show. Maybe no one would watch these things but us, but I mean have you seen the drivel they like to show instead?? I should note I hate tv and have not had it for 4 years, but I do try and watch it when I stay at hotels and stuff, and typically end up looking at stuff like "16 and Pregnant" and "Jerseylicious" and just shaking my head, appalled that anyone would pay for this stuff...But hey, if it worked for crab fishermen and pregnant teenagers, why wouldn't a real farm be riveting?

 

Ok, enough with the idle wish fulfillment.

 

As for how hard it is to know what to look for and where, I see some of Shaneen's points - for a person's first dog, at least. It seems a lot of us didn't get our first BC, if we bought them, from the best working breeder around, but when we knew better, did better (or in my case will do). To me it just showns how these boards are really indispensible. I knew from lurking for just a short time that I should get a collie bred for working livestock no matter what. Even still, I did not understand nuances involved in, as Laurae points out, both parents working to a high level. Therefore I did pretty well (pup from a working farm with goats and some cattle, both parents worked, main purpose in life was for both parents was to work on the farm), although in other ways I could have done much better (I am not sure to what level either dog really works to aside them being useful for the farm's purposes). Yet I got lucky - Odin has a rock solid temperament and has shown some nice talent - I think he and I may be able to go to pro-novice together (with my ability and getting enoug stock time being the major limiting issues) and he has been praised as the perfect "starting dog" and a good match for me to help me learn handling (and have been told as much by USBCHA open trainers). But at the same time, what I didn't know then was VAST. It has taken me a while to learn and absorb. If I had really been prudent, I would have put in more time and research into the endevour. But given I was impatient for a puppy, this board at least saved me from getting a dog from a high-profile versatility breeder, which do have the best campaign out there for pet people who don't know any better.

 

I also agree that raising the visibility of individual working breeders to the general, uneducated public is not really the solution to the problem - getting the public to think about these dogs differently is.

[red russel]

Ask and ye shall receive. We have video of 16 runs from Soldier Hollow and Meeker on our website. Not always great but you definitely get the idea.

 

http://www.leadmeontraining.com/videos.php

 

dave

[Conner22]

Depending upon where in NWPA you live this one may be within 2-3 hrs.

 

Borders on Paradise SDT

May 7-9, 2010

Turbotville, PA

 

Thanx! Its 4.5 hrs away..... When i first was looking, everyone suggested herding trials. I looked them up on the website and mapquested ALL of them in the general tri state area even to virginia/MD. Last year there was one about 3 hrs away, but it was on the weekend BEFORE i started looking- haha!

 

See what I mean! And I'm not in Alaska or Hawaii, even tho I did grow up in AK!

 

Nationals sounds like fun, and its at the end of summer, it may work.

 

OH, and us city folk GAPE when we see a real working bc working livestock- everyone just stares.... so yes, it'd be awesome to see on TV.....

[geonni banner]

Does the ABCA or the USBCHA publish a directory? I would think that would help steer people looking for working-bred pups in the right direction.

[SecretBC]

Wow, this thread has been quite a read.

 

I came to love the Border Collie breed by way of agility. Before I got into agility, I really had very little experience around BC and knew very little about them. After a few years of drooling over them at trials, I decided it would be fun to have one of my own.

 

I admit that I knew nothing about this divide between "sports" and "working" breeders. I knew that I obviously didn't want a conformation-bred BC, but beyond that I was open to just about anything.

 

I *tried* to find farm bred working dogs. I talked to friends at agility trials with dogs I admired and most told me they got their dog from a farmer down the road who doesn't breed anymore. It was very frustrating.

 

The ones who are easy to find ARE the ones you call sport-bred. Good heavens, you see Contact Point BC everywhere you go, it seems. I was getting very close to giving up and getting a dog from one of these breeders because I couldn't find a "farm dog" anywhere. Ultimately I ended up with a rescue who was dumped at a shelter with her mom & siblings. Lord only knows their background!

 

From some of the things posted on this thread, I think I may as well give up hope of finding a true "working-bred" BC, because it sounds like nobody would sell me a working bred dog anyhow, since I'm a "sport person."

 

If you want the working bred BC to flourish, you need to get them out there. Most of the public simply doesn't know any better. Again, I was always told, "Don't buy a conformation dog" --- Nobody ever explained the difference between sport & working bred to me, though.

[juliepoudrier]

From some of the things posted on this thread, I think I may as well give up hope of finding a true "working-bred" BC, because it sounds like nobody would sell me a working bred dog anyhow, since I'm a "sport person."

However did you come to this conclusion, when many of us have said over and over that working breeders will indeed sell to non-working homes? Are you ignoring those comments and seeing what you already believe to be true?

 

J.

[Dixie_Girl]

From some of the things posted on this thread, I think I may as well give up hope of finding a true "working-bred" BC, because it sounds like nobody would sell me a working bred dog anyhow, since I'm a "sport person."

 

If you want the working bred BC to flourish, you need to get them out there. Most of the public simply doesn't know any better. Again, I was always told, "Don't buy a conformation dog" --- Nobody ever explained the difference between sport & working bred to me, though.

 

 

For one thing it would be hard to "get them out there". MOST, not all, breeders of working dogs are going to breed for one of two reasons, either they want/need a pup to replace an aging one, or there are a lot of people asking for a pup out of that particular breeding. In either case, the breeder does not usually need to advertise. Word gets around. If you want a working bred pup, go where they go. Go to trials, to exhibitions, to clinics, etc.

 

I got Skip because of his dam. I liked the way the little girl worked. Both parents are open dogs and both work on the ranch daily with the sheep. All but one of Skips litter mates went to working homes. Those pups are all happily doing stock work. The one is happily being a pet. And then there is Skip. He's afraid of sheep. Won't have a thing to do with them. He would have been great at agility or some such thing as that. But I can guarantee that no one new that when I picked him up. But he is happy just being Skip.

 

I really don't know why this whole breeding thing seems to be difficult for some people. Instead of working ability, lets say you bred for color. If I got a black Snookums(hypothetical dog) and kept breeding with only black Snookums, and bred only those black Snookums with other black Snookums, after a while, when my bitch Snookums was about to whelp, do you think I'd be saying, well, ya know, a white Snookums could pop out. No, you wouldn't. COULD it happen? Sure, hypothetically and mathmatically, it COULD, but then it would be a "rare" Snookums. You breed for what you want. You want an intelligent, athletic, agile, biddable, working dog, that's what you breed for. If you want a dog for speed, you may sacrifice other traits in favor of that.

 

Really, when people say they are "training" their dog for stock work, that is really incorrect. They are fine tuning a dogs natural agenda. Other wise you could "train" any dog to do stock work. But that's kinda nick-picky on my part.

 

Anyway, if you want a working bred pup, go where stock people go and get to know them, and they you, and you will find who is breeding and I don't think you will have any problems getting a pup.

[Laurae]

I live 20 minutes away from agility trials that go on all winter (15miles from house), and part of the summer. I do not have to take off work to go to these. Some of the trials I go to are 45min-1hr away (45miles from house). Anything farther and my dog goes with a handler. I often take entire summer months off from agility. as for the herding trials: I live in NWPA. I look at the USBCHA website for "upcoming" trials, and cannot find one that is under 4-5hrs away, and all are on the weekend.

 

Shaneen, the reason it was suggested that you may not appear to be willing to do the legwork required to find a working-bred pup is that you've severely limited the distance you're willing to travel to find contacts. Perhaps having agility trials taking place 15 miles away from your house has led you to believe that any kind of dog event should be very close to home or that it is an anomaly that stockdog trials take place further away from you, but that is a pretty typical distance to travel to sheepdog trials in many areas of the country (including mine). It is, of course, much easier to surf the Internet from your couch than it is to get in your car and drive four or five hours and then possibly stay in a motel overnight while attending a trial, but in the grand scheme, if you're searching for a pup who will be your partner for the next fifteen or so years, it is really not that big a deal. You will get to meet several local handlers, make contacts, actually see the dogs you hope to get progeny of, and gain a better understanding of what working border collies actually do that is so unique (and, incidentally, what the working border collie folks are talking so passionately about when discussions about the need to preserve working ability in the breed come up).

[SecretBC]

I guess what I'm saying is that if the working bred BC people don't promote their dogs, the agility crowd will remain blissfully ignorant. I have learned a lot from this board, admittedly, but before I found this place I was completely clueless about the divide between working & sport bred breeders.

 

To an agility competitor, it makes SENSE that a BC doing well in agility, bred to another BC doing well in agility, would produce a dog likely to do well in agility (with the right training). It's EASY to find these dogs. That is why there is getting to be so many of them.

 

Honestly, the only problem I have with sport breeding is that they are starting to breed so heavily for size & color. I don't think that is ever a good thing. I want a dog with good structure and a sound mind -- which, from what I read here, comes from good working lines.

 

I've found references for stockdog trials within a few hour drive since I started coming here -- but prior to that, it's virtually unheard of in my area. I want to try my dog on stock this summer, but I'll have to drive at least two hours to do it. I can do agility in my backyard.

 

So yes, it's out there for those who go looking for it -- But if you want sport people to change, you have to educate us. Perhaps the easiest way to do that is to come play agility with us with your working bred dogs.