sometimes I feel like giving up...

[juliepoudrier]

I just want to note to the sport folks still reading this that the working folks who have posted to this thread could all be considered good contacts for finding well-bred working pups, even if they don't breed often themselves. (How do you tell the working folks? They'd be, for the most part, the ones discussing the validity of novices breeding dogs. Most, but not all, of the working folks taking part in this discussion are open handlers.)

 

J.

[ThunderHill]

On re-reading Mr. McCaig's follow-up to his own original post more carefully, I think my subsequent post went off on an independent tangent. I apologize for the inappropriate co-opting.

 

I'll take full responsibility for my tangent, as I believe it's valid and stands on its own, despite other opinions to the contrary.

 

As an additional observation, the term "novice" (absent qualifiers) applies to all the various stages of competitor from beginner up to and including (in some associations) contenders at the open level who have not yet landed high in the official placements. Not all "novices" are rank beginners and/or poseurs, any more than all self-styled working/open handlers are reliable fonts of universal expertise.

 

The whole thrust of this discussion arises from the commonplace fact that separating wheat and chaff is a tough business. Keep threshing, folks.

 

Liz S in South Central PA

[Sue R]

The STANDARD for a Border Collie is working ability ... and breeding for ANYTHING else ... well, you may be breeding but your NOT breeding Border Collies.

Thank you for reiterating this important point - too bad too many people really don't have a clue what "working ability" and "working-bred" really mean - these phrases don't mean the dog that can just bring in the cows for milking or make it around a Novice course. Too many folks have very low standards for what they define as "working ability" or "working-bred" and that further muddies the waters for many.

 

And, lest anyone who doesn't know me think I am trying to pass myself off as something I am not, I am not an Open handler - rather, I'm a Novice handler drop-out and small-scale farmer.

[Eileen Stein]

As an additional observation, the term "novice" (absent qualifiers) applies to all the various stages of competitor from beginner up to and including (in some associations) contenders at the open level who have not yet landed high in the official placements.

 

Perhaps, but the term "novice/novice," which was the category under discussion, is pretty specific.

[ThunderHill]

Perhaps, but the term "novice/novice," which was the category under discussion, is pretty specific.

 

No "perhaps" about it.

 

And there's more than one discussion going on in this thread. I'm sure there's no objection to me clarifying my own acknowledged tangent.

[abcollie]

Thank you for reiterating this important point - too bad too many people really don't have a clue what "working ability" and "working-bred" really mean - these phrases don't mean the dog that can just bring in the cows for milking or make it around a Novice course. Too many folks have very low standards for what they define as "working ability" or "working-bred" and that further muddies the waters for many.

 

TOTALLY agree ... the first part of my post was "aimed" at the "type" you are speaking of (if the dog doesn't "savage" the sheep they are working).

 

The second part was aimed at breeders that think agility is "work" ... right up there with stock work. I have NO issues with people "doing agility" (I think its great they are involved with their dogs) ... its BREEDING for it that I disagree with.

[Sue R]

Many people will get totally incensed if you disagree that agility, obedience, freestyle, or whatever is not "work" - they just don't realize that "the work" is stockwork - anything else is a job but it's not work, with regards to Border Collies. And I am not demeaning a "job" in terms of a dog, just the use of the word "work" when it already has a specific meaning for this breed (and would have a similar relevance for any purpose-bred breed).

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

I thank those who disagreed with my suggestion that newbies might find a pup from a novice handler. Your criticisms opened my mind.

 

Yesterday I visited Tommy Wilson whose Sly has five pups on the ground. The sire (via AI) is Tommy’s famous Roy, dead now ten years. Roy was a terrific worker (as is Sly) and Roy was a prepotent stud. Many, if not most dogs in the southeast have some Roy in their background.

 

On the ground are two Roy sons and three daughters. Tommy has promised two of the five. I didn’t even ask about the others.

 

These are probably the most desirable pups in North America. When might a novice get one?

 

Well, if they show promise I’d expect Tommy to keep some of them. If he lets any go, they will go to Top 17 Handlers. Presuming good results, their pups will go to top open handlers. Then the grandpups will spread among the lesser open handlers and some might go to favored ranchers (disclaimer to come). Some of the great grandpups might get into the general sheepdog community and both grandpups and great grandpups might sire pups in the general sheepdog community. The pups matings will likely be best to best matings only.

 

So. As a novice (which is how this thread started) when and how do you get some of Roy’s genetics?

 

How? Hang around with top handlers. Help them at their trial, scribe, do their paperwork, train with them, impress them with the speed you learn and, maybe five years from now, you could buy a grandpup.

 

Yes, this is an unusually important mating. A novice won’t have to wait so long or prove him/herself so thoroughly to get a grandpup from a National Finals Semi Finalist. If he/she is very lucky and is standing there when someone who signed up for a pup backs out of the deal, he/she might get a pup (given a couple years helping, scribing, etc.)

 

If it wasn’t fairly difficult for a newbie to get a “good working pup” those who thought it was easier might have refuted me by saying, “I have a nice litter from Spot and Jill, both open trial winners, available in July.”

 

It was very quiet out there.

 

It’s relatively easy to identify guff when another culture mouths it, “There’s a woman in Alberta whose show champion (Lassie) Collies work two thousand sheep.”, “Function can be predicted by form”, etc.

 

It’s harder when it’s your own guff or the guff of friends you respect, whose goals you share, who’ve you’ve worked with and admire.

 

Let me start with the most obvious guff: “Get your pup from working farm or ranch stock.”

 

Er, how?

 

I don’t know how things are in Iowa or Oregon. In Virginia, there aren’t many farmers using Border Collies on their (small) flocks and those that do get their dogs from open handlers and there are only a few of these farmers who, if they had a litter on the ground, I’d recommend. I’ve seen wonderful farm dogs that did nothing but fetch. Wonderful farm dogs that’d savage a sheep, wonderful farm dogs who couldn’t handle a ewe and her newborn. I have never, ever, ever seen a farm dog that could shed or place in an open sheepdog trial (unless the farmer was also a trialer.)

 

In Virginia, non-trialing farm dogs are scarce, poorly trained and even so: you’ll stand in line for a pup.

 

More guff: an open handler will sell you a pup. All you have to do is look around.

 

Do the math and make your own guessimates When I last looked there were 576 Open dogs with USBCHA qualifying points. If half are males that leaves 280 potential puppy producers. Some will be too young, too old or spayed – guess 60. Of the remaining 220 how many will be bred this year? Half? A Third? Guess 90. Okay average litter size 5? 450 pups Less the stud fee pup and/or the pup the dam’s owner keeps, guess: 100 of those

 

If my guesses aren’t wildly off the mark there will be 350 pups from open dogs good enough to earn some percent of a placement at an open trial available every year.

 

So okay: how many of the 350 will go to open handlers, the breeder’s repeat customers and local farmers and ranchers? How many does that leave for newbies?

 

I believe my critics are conflating two issues: First; how do we keep livestock working genetics in the Border Collie and how does a newbie find a working pup. The first is a vital question which I have not discussed; the second a practical one. Hence my practical suggestion: talk to the trial novices, they might have what you’re looking for.

 

I won’t tell you how I got my first pup.

 

Donald McCaig

[juliepoudrier]

Hi Donald,

I don't have time to reply fully since I have to finish getting ready for Tom F. to shear my flock (bless him for being willing to drive all this way). I still think that one can find pups from the non-big-hat open handlers and I personally believe that's a better choice than buying from an N/N or P/N handler. That's where I got my first pup (Twist). I don't know if her breeder has any open points on sheep. The owner of the stud (Bud) is Tom, who is a successful open handler on both sheep and cattle, though I don't think he'd be classed as a big hat. Twist turned 8 in November. I've been doing this for 10 years. So I managed to get an open handler to agree to sell me a pup when I was still quite new to the world of stockdogs. Granted, I was running a rescue and another dog in N/N, so I was part of the culture and could talk to folks, but really I don't think I would have been well served by getting a pup from one of my novice compatriots vs. getting a pup from a non-big-hat open handler.

 

I have several dogs that are closely related to Twist. All of them go back to Henry Kuykendall's Imp. Mirk because I like dogs from that line. Henry used to trial, but he doesn't anymore. But he's got vast experience with sheep, working dogs, and breeding. Wouldn't he be a better choice than the average novice (N/N and East Coast P/N, to clarify for everyone) handler? Kent K. was an incredibly successful open handler. He's not trialing right now, but do you think it's impossible for a novice to get a pup from him?

 

I have a friend who was running in N/N when I was. Back then she got a pup (can't remember the breeding now) from Tommy and Florence, and she was a nobody. She doesn't even trial anymore. So it's not impossible for a beginner to get a dog from a big hat.

 

When I bred Twist, I had a couple of successful open handlers approach me about a pup, but I had already promised the pups to friends, a couple of whom were novice handlers (rank beginners) at the time. I was torn between selling a pup to a "name" because doing so would be more likely to get dogs of my breeding "out there," but in the end, I chose people who weren't big names but whom I knew would give the pups a home *for life,* my choice.

 

When I first started out, I kept hearing that Sam was considering selling Jill, but each time I contacted her, she had changed her mind. Later, I got to know her (more important, she got to know *me*) and the next thing you know, she gave me Jill to learn from. The key was that she got to know me first, and that made her feel comfortable giving me a dog that she, and especially Steve, cared a great deal about. I didn't have a long time (working) with Jill, but I learned a lot from her. Granted, this is not the same situation as someone looking for a pup for sports, but still, I think it's important for people who want a pup to get out and meet the folks who might be creating those pups.

 

I just don't think it's as cut-and-dried as the numbers you note would imply. There are plenty of folks out there who have and do run in open and do so successfully, even if they're not the top 17, and I expect that they would be willing to sell pups to a novice.

 

If I had the space and $$ for a pup right now, I would have asked for a Sly/Roy pup. The worst that can happen is that I would have been told "No." But if you don't ask, you'd never know would you? And if it's a cross I really wanted, I'd ask simply because you never know....

 

I get that the difference is that I was and am using the dogs for stockwork, but I've always felt that I'd rather a pup or dog of mine go to a good home (sport, pet, whatever), period, vs. a working home if the working home doesn't keep/train dogs to standards that *I* am comfortable with. Of course not all sport homes are ideal either, but many of those folks do keep their dogs as pets and companions first, and that appeals to me as a breeder. I'm sure I'm not completely alone in that sentiment.

 

And I'm not saying all N/N breeders are awful, but short of having a good, experienced mentor guiding breeding decisions, I just am not comfortable encouraging people who don't have any real experience with the highest standards of work to breed dogs. I can't imagine having chosen to breed my novice dogs, even though one of them was quite well bred, before I had the experience of running in open with reasonable success.

 

Oops! I guess I did reply fully, lol!

 

J.

[Smalahundur]

Let me start with the most obvious guff: “Get your pup from working farm or ranch stock.”

 

Er, how?,

 

Nothing easier; the litters are advertised in the icelandic farmer´s monthly newspaper. You go have a look at the parents, a talk with the farmer and you go home with a pup if you like what you find. But of course that´s Iceland where there are a lot of farmers with relatively small flocks. Especially because of the great promotional activity of Gunnar from Daðastaðir ( breeder, handler, and instructor at many clinics over the last couple of decades) that border collie culture is quickly developing here.

 

 

I won’t tell you how I got my first pup.

 

Donald McCaig

That´s a pity, made me curious.

 

I´d like to add that no doubt a novice should start with a reasonably good dog. But is it really nessecary to start with trial champion material? I seriously doubt it. If you start horseriding, you don´t go out and buy a green thoroughbred stallion for 5 million dollars do you now? Or is that a silly analogy?

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Sheepdoggers and would-be sheepdoggers,

Julie wrote: " I just am not comfortable encouraging people who don't have any real experience with the highest standards of work to breed dogs."

 

Having produced a grand total of four litters in 25 years, I am not a sheepdog breeder. I think sheepdog breeding is a true art and I don't know many people good enough at it that I'd call them "breeders". Drdyden Joe and Craig, by the way were bred by someone (I forget his name - a geneticist at the scottish research farm Dryden Mains) who never trialed and, as I recall, Dryden Joe's mother never worked sheep.

 

I think that what most open handlers do is breed gooduns to gooduns. The only real breeding decision most of us make is taking our bitch to a proven sire and hoping the cross works.

 

In terms of the breed, even those modest plans are much better than breeding Dog A to Dog B because you own them and love them a lot.

 

I nowhere suggested that novice handlers breed their dogs. What I may have said and would say again is that they do breed their dogs and that it is easier to get a pup from them.

 

Will they be awful? Maybe, but probably not.

 

Donald McCaig

[Sue R]

I think if you look at Denise's dart board analogy, you'll see that it's not only successful Open dogs that will be and should be bred (to keep the gene pool large and diverse), it's not only trial dogs that will be and should be bred, and that there's a lot of room for people to get nice pups - for farm/ranch work, for performance, for pets, and even for trial potential.

 

I think a major objection to Donald's suggestion of buying pups from a Novice (and I'm talking a real Novice, not just someone who has experience but hasn't trialed at Open) is that a Novice really doesn't have the experience or knowledge to be breeding (as said before, at least without an experienced mentor guiding the process).

 

As for Donald's remarks about farm dogs that he is familiar with in VA, how many of those are simply poorly-trained and poorly-handled, no matter what their genetic potential is? Were they the product of thoughtless breeding or did they come from "good stock"? I've had several dogs with unstellar breeding, with huge holes in their usefulness - how much of that was me and how much was the dog? I don't know but I know that the problems stem from both of us. Some days, together, the dogs and I are quite useful - some days, not so useful.

 

What might be a wothwhile idea is to meet people (trials, clinics, lessons), volunteer at events and make contacts, and then approach someone you respect and admire - if that person does not have pups coming or is not willing/able to sell you a pup, ask if they can recommend someone who might. It can take a bit of effort to find the right pup and support the right kind of breeding decisions, but it will be worth it.

 

And, Donald, I've read about your first dog and know the breeder (who told me where he came from), so we have something in common as I, too, got my first pup there. I've learned a lot since then and I'm still trying to figure things out.

[Eileen Stein]

It’s harder [to identify guff] when it’s your own guff or the guff of friends you respect, whose goals you share, who’ve you’ve worked with and admire.

 

No, it's not.

 

I think there are a number of logical fallacies in what you've written, Donald. Is it really "guff" to say that people can buy working-bred pups from farmers and ranchers, just because few of the non-trialing farmers you know in VA have many pups for sale, or have dogs you'd recommend? What basis is there to assume that your local situation is typical all across the country? And even in VA -- I don't remember all the details, but as I recall David Henry bought his first border collie pup (Holly) from a farmer after he noticed the dam (a granddaughter of Roy Johnson's Roscoe) in the back of the farmer's pickup.

 

Do your mathematical calculations really support your claim that it's "guff" to say that an open handler will sell an agility person a pup? I don't think so. First and most fundamental, why do you assume those pups must be born to bitches on the points list? Do you think the Knoxes, for example, are not breeding litters from any bitches other than the two they've currently got on the points list? Or do you think the pups they're breeding from other dams are somehow not working bred? It seems to me that your calculations provide little support for your claim. And your claim is certainly counter to my experience -- I know of a number of agility and other sport dogs bought as pups from open handlers. A number of open handlers' websites make it clear that they have sold pups that are now competing in agility.

 

An unknown person who wants a pup for agility will not get sold a Roy/Sly pup, that's true (though it's not true that all those pups will necessarily "go to Top 17 Handlers" -- in fact, I'll betcha $5 they don't). But he will not have all that much trouble locating a working-bred pup descended from Roy. And I would have no trouble referring him to a good working breeder who knows what he's doing and could sell him a well-bred, working-bred pup.

 

I think you are making this sound much harder than it is.

 

I nowhere suggested that novice handlers breed their dogs. What I may have said and would say again is that they do breed their dogs and that it is easier to get a pup from them.

 

What effect do you think it will have on breeding by novice handlers if agility enthusiasts start going up to novice/novice handlers and saying, "Do you by any chance have puppies for sale, or are you by any chance going to breed your dog? Donald McCaig says you're the kind of person I should look to buy a puppy from."

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Sheepdoggers,

 

My friend Eileen asked:

 

"What effect do you think it will have on breeding by novice handlers if agility enthusiasts start going up to novice/novice handlers and saying, "Do you by any chance have puppies for sale, or are you by any chance going to breed your dog? Donald McCaig says you're the kind of person I should look to buy a puppy from."

 

They won't and it will have no effect at all.

 

Donald McCaig

[geonni banner]

Actually, if I was in the market for a Border Collie pup, I'd know enough not to buy an AKC pup. But if I read somewhere that Donald McCaig said you should consider buying a pup from a novice handler, I would very likely call 'em up and start the conversation with, "Hi! I'm interested in getting a pup, and Mr. McCaig said this was a good place to start looking."

 

This is especially true since I've been "on the Boards," as you are clearly a respected member of the BC Boards community. Though maybe not universally agreed with on everything, your opinion carries weight - especially with newbies like myself who have read your books.

 

I listen carefully to the experienced hands on the Boards and form my own opinions on topics here, but your name is recognizable, so when reading your opinions on all things Border Collie, people might well read with a mindset of this is probably the straight dope, rather than well, who is this person, and what gives them the credibility that I should believe what they say?

 

JMO

[ejano]

Dear Doggers,

 

I thank those who disagreed with my suggestion that newbies might find a pup from a novice handler. Your criticisms opened my mind.

 

Yesterday I visited Tommy Wilson whose Sly has five pups on the ground. The sire (via AI) is Tommy’s famous Roy, dead now ten years. Roy was a terrific worker (as is Sly) and Roy was a prepotent stud. Many, if not most dogs in the southeast have some Roy in their background.

 

On the ground are two Roy sons and three daughters. Tommy has promised two of the five. I didn’t even ask about the others.

 

These are probably the most desirable pups in North America. When might a novice get one?

 

Well, if they show promise I’d expect Tommy to keep some of them. If he lets any go, they will go to Top 17 Handlers. Presuming good results, their pups will go to top open handlers. Then the grandpups will spread among the lesser open handlers and some might go to favored ranchers (disclaimer to come). Some of the great grandpups might get into the general sheepdog community and both grandpups and great grandpups might sire pups in the general sheepdog community. The pups matings will likely be best to best matings only.

 

So. As a novice (which is how this thread started) when and how do you get some of Roy’s genetics?

 

How? Hang around with top handlers. Help them at their trial, scribe, do their paperwork, train with them, impress them with the speed you learn and, maybe five years from now, you could buy a grandpup.

 

Yes, this is an unusually important mating. A novice won’t have to wait so long or prove him/herself so thoroughly to get a grandpup from a National Finals Semi Finalist. If he/she is very lucky and is standing there when someone who signed up for a pup backs out of the deal, he/she might get a pup (given a couple years helping, scribing, etc.)

 

If it wasn’t fairly difficult for a newbie to get a “good working pup” those who thought it was easier might have refuted me by saying, “I have a nice litter from Spot and Jill, both open trial winners, available in July.”

 

It was very quiet out there.

 

It’s relatively easy to identify guff when another culture mouths it, “There’s a woman in Alberta whose show champion (Lassie) Collies work two thousand sheep.”, “Function can be predicted by form”, etc.

 

It’s harder when it’s your own guff or the guff of friends you respect, whose goals you share, who’ve you’ve worked with and admire.

 

Let me start with the most obvious guff: “Get your pup from working farm or ranch stock.”

 

Er, how?

 

I don’t know how things are in Iowa or Oregon. In Virginia, there aren’t many farmers using Border Collies on their (small) flocks and those that do get their dogs from open handlers and there are only a few of these farmers who, if they had a litter on the ground, I’d recommend. I’ve seen wonderful farm dogs that did nothing but fetch. Wonderful farm dogs that’d savage a sheep, wonderful farm dogs who couldn’t handle a ewe and her newborn. I have never, ever, ever seen a farm dog that could shed or place in an open sheepdog trial (unless the farmer was also a trialer.)

 

In Virginia, non-trialing farm dogs are scarce, poorly trained and even so: you’ll stand in line for a pup.

 

More guff: an open handler will sell you a pup. All you have to do is look around.

 

Do the math and make your own guessimates When I last looked there were 576 Open dogs with USBCHA qualifying points. If half are males that leaves 280 potential puppy producers. Some will be too young, too old or spayed – guess 60. Of the remaining 220 how many will be bred this year? Half? A Third? Guess 90. Okay average litter size 5? 450 pups Less the stud fee pup and/or the pup the dam’s owner keeps, guess: 100 of those

 

If my guesses aren’t wildly off the mark there will be 350 pups from open dogs good enough to earn some percent of a placement at an open trial available every year.

 

So okay: how many of the 350 will go to open handlers, the breeder’s repeat customers and local farmers and ranchers? How many does that leave for newbies?

 

I believe my critics are conflating two issues: First; how do we keep livestock working genetics in the Border Collie and how does a newbie find a working pup. The first is a vital question which I have not discussed; the second a practical one. Hence my practical suggestion: talk to the trial novices, they might have what you’re looking for.

 

I won’t tell you how I got my first pup.

 

Donald McCaig

 

Hello,

I've been following this discussion around the wheel and find your explanation most logical. When my grandparents needed a new working dog, they went over the hill to the next farm who had a "good dog" asked for a pup. He was a dandy. That was quite some time ago and while the farmer's son is still in business, I haven't seen a Border Collie on his place for years. His cows are in the barn or in a concrete barnyard, poor things. The lady from whom we acquired our pups keeps goats, sheep, chickens, New Guinea hens and the occasional beef cow and whatever it is, Daisy rounds it up and keeps it in its place. She's got working dogs in her background from Scotland to Canada. She was bred to a dog from a trial background and out popped these lovely puppies, which except for our two, went to working homes on small, sustainable farms. Daisy may not know all of the finer points of trialing, but when you tell her you're missing three chickens when its time to lock them up for the night, by golly she goes out and finds all three and brings them back, and isn't that the point of having a Border Collie? I can understand that trialing "proves" the dog and that sheep herding, like any type of agricultural practice is a dying business in most areas of the country, but in my most humble opinion, the best dog in the world is a good farm dog.

[Denise Wall]

It seems simple to me. If you believe the border collie is a good breed, then it should remain as it was originally bred, and is still needed, a working breed. Top quality working dogs should be bred by knowledgeable people to keep the working gene pool healthy and strong. If you want a pup, you should educate yourself and support the best working breeder you can find so these breeders can produce more top quality pups.

 

If you just want it to be easy for you, that's another story.

[Blackdawgs]

Actually, if I was in the market for a Border Collie pup, I'd know enough not to buy an AKC pup. But if I read somewhere that Donald McCaig said you should consider buying a pup from a novice handler, I would very likely call 'em up and start the conversation with, "Hi! I'm interested in getting a pup, and Mr. McCaig said this was a good place to start looking."

 

I am in the market for a pup and I am going to the agility trials/ practices and talking to people. And I have one foot in the door in the local stock dog (such that it is) and rescues communities. I ask a lot of questions about the dogs that I like and dislike. There are plenty of dogs out there, but you ain't gonna find one by sitting at your computer and throwing Mr McCaig's name about on the phone. Hypothetically, speaking.

 

I've dabbled in stock work. Although I could love it, serious pursuit just isn't practical for this suburban chick. My first love is agility, which is just more accessable to me and thousands of others like me. In the end, I want a well-structured, healthy, biddable, athletic, intelligent dog that I can live it. I don't have the time, energy, or aspirations for the world agility team--I don't need a dog from top herding bloodlines any more than I need a dog from top agility bloodline, so I don't feel the need to spend the money and expend the effort to ship a dog here from Mr Big Hat or Ms Agility Goddess when a dog from a local farmer or novice trialer may suit me just fine. Let someone with bigger aspirations have one of those dogs. And frankly, why buy a Ferrari when a Honda will do?

[abcollie]

I am in the market for a pup and I am going to the agility trials/ practices and talking to people. And I have one foot in the door in the local stock dog (such that it is) and rescues communities. I ask a lot of questions about the dogs that I like and dislike. There are plenty of dogs out there, but you ain't gonna find one by sitting at your computer and throwing Mr McCaig's name about on the phone. Hypothetically, speaking.

 

I've dabbled in stock work. Although I could love it, serious pursuit just isn't practical for this suburban chick. My first love is agility, which is just more accessable to me and thousands of others like me. In the end, I want a well-structured, healthy, biddable, athletic, intelligent dog that I can live it. I don't have the time, energy, or aspirations for the world agility team--I don't need a dog from top herding bloodlines any more than I need a dog from top agility bloodline, so I don't feel the need to spend the money and expend the effort to ship a dog here from Mr Big Hat or Ms Agility Goddess when a dog from a local farmer or novice trialer may suit me just fine. Let someone with bigger aspirations have one of those dogs. And frankly, why buy a Ferrari when a Honda will do?

 

Then WHY buy a Border Collie ... if ANY dog will do?

[geonni banner]

I am in the market for a pup and I am going to the agility trials/ practices and talking to people. And I have one foot in the door in the local stock dog (such that it is) and rescues communities. I ask a lot of questions about the dogs that I like and dislike. There are plenty of dogs out there, but you ain't gonna find one by sitting at your computer and throwing Mr McCaig's name about on the phone. Hypothetically, speaking.

 

I've dabbled in stock work. Although I could love it, serious pursuit just isn't practical for this suburban chick. My first love is agility, which is just more accessable to me and thousands of others like me. In the end, I want a well-structured, healthy, biddable, athletic, intelligent dog that I can live it. I don't have the time, energy, or aspirations for the world agility team--I don't need a dog from top herding bloodlines any more than I need a dog from top agility bloodline, so I don't feel the need to spend the money and expend the effort to ship a dog here from Mr Big Hat or Ms Agility Goddess when a dog from a local farmer or novice trialer may suit me just fine. Let someone with bigger aspirations have one of those dogs. And frankly, why buy a Ferrari when a Honda will do?

 

You seem to have missed the point of my post.

 

It was nothing about the right way or wrong way of getting a pup. What it was about was in response to Eileen's question and Mr Mc Caig's response. Her question was:

 

"What effect do you think it will have on breeding by novice handlers if agility enthusiasts start going up to novice/novice handlers and saying, "Do you by any chance have puppies for sale, or are you by any chance going to breed your dog? Donald McCaig says you're the kind of person I should look to buy a puppy from."

His response was:

 

"They won't and it will have no effect at all."

 

I was merely pointing out that he may be underestimating the effect that his opinion, alleged opinion - influence or alleged influence might have.

 

I don't need to be told that choosing a puppy for whatever reason involves more than name-dropping and yakking on the phone. Frankly, I find the assumption rather presumptuous and not a little rude in content and in the manner of its expression.

 

Neither do I understand why you feel compelled to so hotly defend your manner of choosing a pup or the pup so chosen, when as near as I can tell, no one is taking issue with it.

[abcollie]

You seem to have missed the point of my post.

 

Neither do I understand why you feel compelled to so hotly defend your manner of choosing a pup or the pup so chosen, when as near as I can tell, no one is taking issue with it.

 

I think you missed my point.

 

I repeat (and I'm not Hotly defending my position ... which I feel needs NO defending) WHY are you getting a Border Collie? If it's not important to you who breeds it (as you said you are looking at "sort of" herding ... "sort of" agility) ... WHY a Border Collie? Is there a reason you are choosing a Border Collie over another breed?

[Denise Wall]

And frankly, why buy a Ferrari when a Honda will do?

 

Because you're helping turn the whole breed into Hondas. For every Honda you settle for, a Ferrari will not be bred.

 

If a good working border collie is a Ferrari, and you don't want or need a Ferrari, as Candy said, why get a border collie at all?

 

As I said, educate yourself and find the best working breeder you can find if you want to support the breed. I'm not saying you need to import a dog or spend huge money shipping a dog, just make a reasonable effort that will support the breeding of good working dogs.

 

I think it helps to think of how each decision is affecting the breed as a whole.

[juliepoudrier]

Just a point of clarification before things get even more muddled: Candy, I believe Geonni's post was in response to Blackdawgs' post and not yours.

 

I think Candy's questions are actually directed at Blackdawgs, who made the Ferrari-Honda comparison.

 

It seems that you are both disagreeing with Blackdawgs' comments but somehow are now responding to each other?

 

J.

[geonni banner]

I think you missed my point.

 

I repeat (and I'm not Hotly defending my position ... which I feel needs NO defending) WHY are you getting a Border Collie? If it's not important to you who breeds it (as you said you are looking at "sort of" herding ... "sort of" agility) ... WHY a Border Collie? Is there a reason you are choosing a Border Collie over another breed?

 

 

Perhaps you should try reading my earlier post again.

 

I said, "Actually, if I was in the market for a Border Collie pup..." I'm not, and don't expect to be. In the event that I outlive the one I have, I will get another rescue dog - perhaps a Border Collie, perhaps not. I have no stockwork for a Border Collie to do, so I wouldn't be searching for a working lines prospect, and I like a number of kinds of dogs. At my age, my next dog will probably be small - or a cat.

 

I never said the following:

If it's not important to you who breeds it (as you said you are looking at "sort of" herding ... "sort of" agility)

 

Perhaps you had better read the thread a bit more slowly. You seem to have me confused with another poster...

 

edited to add, I was actually originally responding to Mr. McCaig's post... Then Blackdawgs responded to that post and I replied.

[abcollie]

Just a point of clarification before things get even more muddled: Candy, I believe Geonni's post was in response to Blackdawgs' post and not yours.

 

I think Candy's questions are actually directed at Blackdawgs, who made the Ferrari-Honda comparison.

 

It seems that you are both disagreeing with Blackdawgs' comments but somehow are now responding to each other?

 

J.

 

Thanks,

 

I saw that after I posted ... but confused why she responded to my post as if I had directed my comments to hers? Anyway ... my comment (WHY get a Border Collie) was in reference to Blackdawgs post.

 

Now that we are all confused :@) "back to our regularly scheduled program".