sometimes I feel like giving up...

[D'Elle]

This is a great discussion.

 

What I don't get, and never have, is why on earth anyone would want to breed for sports ability.

 

Border collies existed for hundreds of years before anyone ever thought of such a thing as dog sports. When dog sports started, border collies (bred for working ability) were the leaders and the top winners. Why? Because they had been bred to work and had all of those characteristics, which translate so well into sports if they don't have the chance to do sheep. Why would anyone want to breed them differently? Makes no sense to me.

 

I am not a shepherd and never will be. I am not a competitor in sports. My border collies are my companions, and will probably always be from BC rescues. We do lots of things together, just not sheep. But if I ever bought a puppy, I would want one bred to work, because that IS the border collie.

 

Those traits that working dogs have are the reason I love the breed. My thought, as simply a person who is devoted to and greatly admiring of the breed, is that no one should breed BCs unless they are breeding for working (meaning herding) ability. Those very same traits that are bred for work are the ones that anyone who loves border collies should be wanting in their dog, whatever they plan to do together with the dog. If not, they should go get a different breed.

[Smalahundur]

Smalahundur,

I have responded to your questions. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're asking. Maybe you need to try again. Frankly, I have been in on these sorts of discussions many, many times over my years on this forum and it does get tiresome responding to the same old questions and comments. Ask a specific question and I will try to answer, but beyond that I don't intend to expend tons of time and energy on threads like this anymore.

 

J.

 

As I don´t like to repeat myself either I think I´ll it a rest here, I think the stockwork section is more interesting anyway (and I suspect so do you ). I´ll see you there, I´m sure I´ll have lots of more interesting questions to ask when this newbie starts Tauta on his unsuspecting yearlings that you might be willing expend some of your time and energy on (thanks in advance).

[juliepoudrier]

Considering that represented at nationals is from accross the country and all walks of life, I dont know why I cant say finding a working bred dog for myself or for my friends was difficult. It was. The internet is very little help, this board dislikes a majority of breeders, and I HAVE posted on here asking about working homes.... I got ONE name- ONE! That was it. I posted asking about working breeders on here at least 2x! And I have ONE name to show for it.

And did you actually contact the ONE person whose name you received? If not, why not?

 

I don't think this board (we aren't a collective, lol!) dislikes a majority of breeders. It probably happens that a majority of breeders who have slick websites geared to buyers who don't really want to do any legwork aren't the best breeders out there.

 

I usually tell people to go to sheep or cattle trials and talk to people there. You meet breeders and you get to meet their dogs. You can see *for yourself* the types of dogs they produce. No slick website needed. And guess what? People who have actually met you and talked to you in person are more likely to sell to you. Yes, it means giving up some time and actually going out and finding these working dog people, but if the pup you're going to raise, compete with, and spend the next 15 years with isn't worth that sort of effort, then I don't know what to tell you.

 

Now back to the "one person" complaint. I had a student coming here with a conformation-bred border collie. The dog was his wife's, but he had been to a sheepdog trial and had seen dogs work and wanted to do that too, at that level (open, USBCHA). He realized that his dog wasn't going to take him there, so he asked me--one person--about finding a suitable dog. I didn't know of anyone offhand who had a young started dog for sale, so I asked a friend of mine (one person), and she happened to know of a young bitch that was available. I put my student in contact with the owner (one person) of that bitch and he's got himself a nice dog. My point is that one person can be exactly where to start. Most people want to be helpful. If one individual doesn't have what you need, they will usually either know someone who does or know someone who knows someone who does. So being given just one name should have been a fine starting point, your feelings to the contrary notwithstanding.

 

J.

[juliepoudrier]

As I don´t like to repeat myself either I think I´ll it a rest here, I think the stockwork section is more interesting anyway (and I suspect so do you ). I´ll see you there, I´m sure I´ll have lots of more interesting questions to ask when this newbie starts Tauta on his unsuspecting yearlings that you might be willing expend some of your time and energy on (thanks in advance).

When you start posting questions in the training section I will be more than happy to try to help. While training can sometimes be controversial, at least it's not as emotional and endlessly cycling as some of these other timeworn discussions.

 

J.

[Root Beer]

Arguments like this are always handicapped by the fact that sports enthusiasts are convinced they need a specially bred dog to do it while most working folks know that the traits that make a border collie a good agility dog are usually a "given", even with a dog that might not be top-quality for stockwork.

 

Are we really convinced of that? Thanks for the memo! I apparently missed it the first time around.

 

Seriously, dog sport enthusiasts are as varied as any other group that shares a common interest. Yes, there are some that fit the mindset that you describe, but there are many who approach things quite differently.

[Root Beer]

Kristine,

I agree that we should be educating the hobby herders, as I said in my previous post. But if, as you claim (and I don't disagree) many folks are buying sports bred or BYB dogs out of ignorance (not knowing there's anything else out there), then doesn't it make sense to try to educate *everyone* and not just the hobby herders? One could argue that the hobby herders, at least, are proving that their dogs will work, even if to a low standard, which might at least create more yellow-circle dogs, while it's the other folks who aren't ever working their dogs on stock and yet still breeding them who are creating the ever-larger white circle.

 

J.

 

Definitely.

 

When I first found out that Border Collies are still used for the purpose for which they were bred, I was really interested. Guess what I was doing when I learned that? Sitting at my computer, while my brand new Border Collie puppy was chewing on my feet under the computer table, as I set out to learn some things about the type of dog I had just purchased.

 

I think a lot of first time Border Collie owners - whether they got the dog for sports, or as a pet, or whatever - really have no clue about where these dogs came from in the first place, much less that there could be any difference between one purchased from a working breeder (about which they probably have no knowledge) or a sport breeder or a back yard breeder, etc.

 

Most breeds of dog are not used for their original purpose anymore. It is only natural that it would not even occur to a lot of people that Border Collies are. If they don't know, they don't know. The fact that Border Collies are still used for their original purpose is not as much common knowledge as it might seem to those of us for whom it is very well known.

 

So, yeah, I'm all for education. The more people who know, the better.

 

It just seems to me that the hobby herders really ought to know. I am seriously surprised that at the idea that there are many that don't.

[juliepoudrier]

It just seems to me that the hobby herders really ought to know. I am seriously surprised that at the idea that there are many that don't.

I suspect it's more of a willful ignorance issue than just plain ignorance. We have these kinds of breeding discussions here regularly, and yet there are still folks who read and maybe even participate and should know better and yet still go ahead and breed their dogs anyway. We are, after all, a nation of individual rights and as is illustrated here often enough in various types of discussions, many of us don't want to be told what we should or should not do.

 

J.

[Denise Wall]

Pity that Julia or Denise don´t respond to the questions I raised....

 

I apologize for not being on the BC boards 24/7 but now that I'm back I'm willing to answer the question I *think* you're asking, which is:

 

Because in both (rather similar) explanations a basic premise seems to be (unless I misunderstand) that the working dog community is too small a market to keep a healthy gene pool intact on its own.

 

People still eat meat. As long as people still eat meat there will be a need for dogs to help them manage their stock. There are places 4 wheelers and even horses can't get to to bring in or work stock. There's still a good demand for good working dogs.

 

So I don't consider the situation as the need for the dogs in working community is too small to sustain a healthy population of working border collies but rather that it is very hard to breed the best workers, and a lot of them need to be bred to sustain this best worker population. It's good selection that's the issue not the need.

 

Behavioral traits in general are notoriously difficult to reproduce reliably. Add the complexity of all of the factors that make up a good worker and you aren't going to hit the bulls eye with each pup in each litter or even close no matter how good a breeder you are. I've heard it said that one pup out of a five pup litter of well bred border working collies will not even work at all. I don't know if that's true but I've seen and bred enough litters to know there is normally quite a bit of variability in talent in each litter. That's why there needs to be constant and stringent selection pressure in breeding good border collies every generation. A lot of them need to be bred in order to keep getting enough really good ones.

 

Because there is no real advantage (it appears) to breeding pups from non working parents (if one really wants a border collie), it only hurts the working population when these non working dogs are bred because it decreases the number of homes for working bred pups.

[Eileen Stein]

Perhaps I assumed wrong, but I thought a majority of the posts were about sports bred dogs becoming the majority, therefore causing a smaller gene pool of good working bred dogs, creating a vicious cycle.

If the sports bred dog is not even a majority in its SPORT, I believe it is a telling sign that it is NOT the future of the breed, nor endangering the current or future gene pool.

 

The sport of agility is young. It goes back barely 20 years in the US. AKC agility goes back perhaps 15 years. The situation as regards breeding border collies for agility is very different now than it was ten years ago, and will be very different ten years from now than it is now. It's always a mistake to assume that the future will stay the same as the present.

[Liz P]

Why doesn't someone get a list of the top 100 or so agility Border Collies in the USA right now. I bet that the "working bred" dogs are mostly from versatility kennels.

 

Out of curiosity I looked at a few short lists of top ranked AKC agility Border Collies. About 80% were from sport and/or versatility breeders that I could recognize. I suspect that the top ranked dogs will have a higher proportion of sport bred dogs, but still, it really says something when the majority of handlers that people look up to (the big hats of the agility world) are running sport collies.

[SS Cressa]

Why doesn't someone get a list of the top 100 or so agility Border Collies in the USA right now. I bet that the "working bred" dogs are mostly from versatility kennels.

 

Out of curiosity I looked at a few short lists of top ranked AKC agility Border Collies. About 80% were from sport and/or versatility breeders that I could recognize. I suspect that the top ranked dogs will have a higher proportion of sport bred dogs, but still, it really says something when the majority of handlers that people look up to (the big hats of the agility world) are running sport collies.

 

Oh gosh! Did you see Cressa? She is/was in the top 25 border collies for this year!!! Go Cressa! Go Cressa!

 

At AKC nationals asking around to the normal people who had border collie or border collies in 16in or 24in. Most came from working lines and most was happy with them and would only consider working bred. Cressa comes from a farm, another came from Aled Owens dogs, another was out of Jim Geurin dogs, some more came out of small local farms. Maybe I asked the wrong people??? But it didn't seem like agility dogs were taking over. LOL Didn't even ask 20in tho. Maybe next time... More "sports" breed in the 26in class but that was more the world team people. Even talking with some members of the world team they don't want a "sport" bred dog for their next. They want the speed, structure, drive of the agility dogs with the brains of the working. So look for that type of cross agility/working bred dogs. And no am not talking 2nd or more generation working.

 

Most of the kennels I've looked at in agility or flyball seem to make sure there is at least one nicely bred working dog in their kennel that they use... Not that it matters. Some are from Mirk, some Aled Owens, am trying to think of some of the other.

 

Strong herding lines mean the dog won't be as crazy on the course. But with where agility seems to be headed you are going to need the speed, and structure of the agility/flyball dog to do well in the sport with the soundness of mind of the working parent. Not sure if that makes sense?

 

ETA to make more sense.

[Laurae]

In my experience, sport people absolutely believe they have working-bred pups when they actually have sport-bred pups whose grandparents or great-grandparents are working bred. That's why sport people who have "asked around" about the lineage of the pups of their peers don't understand the problem--they have a more vague standard of what "working bred" means.

 

Puppies are working bred only when both the sire and the dam of their litter work stock to a high level.

[SS Cressa]

In my experience, sport people absolutely believe they have working-bred pups when they actually have sport-bred pups whose grandparents or great-grandparents are working bred. That's why sport people who have "asked around" about the lineage of the pups of their peers don't understand the problem.

 

Puppies are working-bred only when both the sire and the dam of their litter work stock to a high level.

 

umm Their dog was the pup of Aled Owens Gwyn and I bitch name Meg (I think), 2 or 3 other were the the child of Jim Geurin Jill and one if his boys/stud. The rest came from working farms.

 

So if a border collie job is to help move livestock on a farm isn't consider working. What is?

 

So now agility/flyball/whatever people shouldn't buy from sports homes and shouldn't buy from farms since that isn't consider working umm where are we suppose to find "working" border collie. Is there a certain # of heads of livestock we should look out for? That would turn a farm border collie into a true working border collie.

 

For me if the dog main job is to work/help the farmer move/gather/whatever livestock then its a working bred border collie.

[juliepoudrier]

SSCressa,

I'm sure Laura was referring to this comment you made:

Most of the kennels I've looked at in agility or flyball seem to make sure there is at least one nicely bred working dog in their kennel that they use... Not that it matters. Some are from Mirk, some Aled Owens, am trying to think of some of the other.

 

Having one working-bred dog in the kennel to which you (the generic you) breed your non-working-bred bitches does not magically make the resulting pups working bred.

 

Per Laura's definition, someone who has a stud produced from two of Aled Owen's working dogs and then in turn breeds that stud to non-working-bred bitches is NOT producing working-bred dogs.

 

Pups from two farm dogs who actually *work* on a farm are indeed working bred.

 

Do you see the difference? Do you think that perhaps people getting pups from the first breeding I mentioned would consider them working bred? Do you see why working people do not? (Note that I am not referring to any requirement for a working standard, like International Supreme winner, but rather that both sire and dam should be working livestock to some reasonable standard for a litter to be considered working-bred. After all, if the breeder isn't actually breeding with an eye for the work--in this case stockwork--then it doesn't really matter what dogs are used; they couldn't be considered working-bred, except perhaps on paper only**. **Meaning that it is incumbent upon a breeder of working dogs to not just put a stud and bitch together because both work, but instead to carefully consider the cross to try to produce pups that are an improvement on either parent, for stockwork.)

 

J.

[Rave]

First of all, if you're looking for the top working-bred BCs in agility, the ACK lists aren't the place to look. I for one could care less where people get their dogs, so don't know where all the top USDAA BC's are from, but in looking over this year's top GP finishers, the ones I do recognize are mostly from sport breeders.

[SS Cressa]

How it was written... I hope she was referring to what you explain. And if it was; I never claim that breeding a working dog to an agility dog made it offspring magically a working dog. I was sayng some agility understand the importance of having working dog in their line or as a parent. I was disagreeing with the whole sport people don't understand pedigree theories put out or only top end herding dog are consider working dog.

 

I doubt the top end agility or flyball people are claiming their pups CAN work. They want to produce dogs that can excel in their sport and would want to sell to people who compete in their sport. But they do realize the importance of keeping working lines in their line to keep the dog steady with the brains to make the dog a great agility team but with the speed, drive required to make a awesome agility dog. **My interpretation of agility/flyball breeding. Never really talked with a "sport" breeder about what they think about when they breed only talked with buyer and seen dogs in action. ** Its seems its the "other" kennels with so-so dogs that seem to claim their dogs can do it all(work,sports,companion,you name it).

 

SSCressa,

I'm sure Laura was referring to this comment you made:

Having one working-bred dog in the kennel to which you (the generic you) breed your non-working-bred bitches does not magically make the resulting pups working bred.

 

Per Laura's definition, someone who has a stud produced from two of Aled Owen's working dogs and then in turn breeds that stud to non-working-bred bitches is NOT producing working-bred dogs.

 

Pups from two farm dogs who actually *work* on a farm are indeed working bred.

 

Do you see the difference? Do you think that perhaps people getting pups from the first breeding I mentioned would consider them working bred? Do you see why working people do not? (Note that I am not referring to any requirement for a working standard, like International Supreme winner, but rather that both sire and dam should be working livestock to some reasonable standard for a litter to be considered working-bred. After all, if the breeder isn't actually breeding with an eye for the work--in this case stockwork--then it doesn't really matter what dogs are used; they couldn't be considered working-bred, except perhaps on paper only**. **Meaning that it is incumbent upon a breeder of working dogs to not just put a stud and bitch together because both work, but instead to carefully consider the cross to try to produce pups that are an improvement on either parent, for stockwork.)

 

J.

[juliepoudrier]

For me if the dog main job is to work/help the farmer move/gather/whatever livestock then its a working bred border collie.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this. If someone owns and breeds show border collies and also keeps a few sheep on the farm and those border collies are used to move those sheep around, then by your definition the dogs would be working bred. By my definition they would not.

 

If a person owns a well-bred working stud and also has a kennelful of sports-bred bitches to which they are crossing that dog, and they also happen to own some livestock and use one or more of their dogs to move those livestock, I would not consider the dogs working-bred, even if you might.

 

As I tried to explain in an earlier post, working-bred just isn't just about throwing together any working-bred stud to any working-bred bitch; it's about taking into consideration the working characteristics of both sire and dam and trying to produce better than them both in the offspring. If one or the other of the pair never or rarely works livestock, I don't think a breeder can make an honest assessment about the working abilities of that dog in order to choose a stud who should complement the bitch and also presumably produce pups that are an improvement over their parents.

 

It's not just about taking a dog from working lines and crossing it with some other dogs of the same breed, no matter what. It's a philosphy about breeding to try and create more dogs that would end up in Denise's red circle; not to produce dogs of potentially mediocre ability. While crossing a nice working-bred dog onto a dog from some other breeding might improve the working genetics of the pups from that breeding; it's certainly not the way to go about producing superior (red circle) dogs or attempting to build on the working dog's (one-half of the cross) good qualities. It's unlikely that pups from such a cross would be better than the working parent.

 

J.

[Conner22]

Eileen, while I would not claim to know where the breed (in agility) is going, I can tell you that 5-7 years ago, and to some extent now- sports bred was the "rage". Now, people are seeing the end result of that breeding, and not liking it. Alot of people I speak with do not like the sports "over the top spinning/barking" dogs. They are looking for a well bred HERDING lines dog- dogs that trial, or dogs that WORK work farms. to note, many still have hopes for the agility bred to cross to a working dog, and that is still being persued by sports breeders. We will have to see where that goes, since that is in early stages still. But from what I've seen, those are still classified as agility dogs, and sold as agility dogs. Not as a working bc. many in agility will tell you if their dog is from a sports breeder, EVEN if those dogs have a working parent or lineage. they do not claim working, they are honest and say- my bc is from anyname SPORT kennel.

 

LizP

As for seeing "agility" bred dogs in the top 100..... simply put, when sports bred were the "rage", and its taking a little to fizzle out, people who had the ability and WANTED to win went for these dogs. The first sports bred dogs were SOLD to high end agility homes ON PURPOSE! For example fakename kennels- she only sold to reknown agility handlers- and those dogs have consistently placed in top 5 at both USDAA and AKC nationals. Her second litter she sold (after building reknown) to average homes, and those have gone NOWHERE fast.... litterally. Those dogs are fast, but a little crazy.

 

honestly, my Trainer is one of the people who owns and places in top 5 AKC/USDAA agility with her fakename kennel dog.

She often says that any bc with proper temperment + adequate stucture can excel at the sport, a majority depends on the handler. if top sports homes bought REAL working bred dogs, those dogs would be the ones winning, and in the top 100.

 

JulieP

PS. Yes, i did my homework. I contacted the breeder (the ONE) i was referred to on this board. She gave me 2 other names. And the buck stopped there.... I unfortunatly do not live close to ANY trial and during the summer months (since I am a young professional) do not have seniority to get days off on the weekend to travel and SEE a trial.

But honestly, posts claim that by joining and researching this board makes it very easy to find that perfect working bc... and really, it doesnt. 3 is actually a very dismal number considering the amount of people *on* the bc boards, and the amount of alleged good breeders/ open level dogs out there, and the number of dogs working decent livestock operations. I've lurked bc boards for about 2 years and come away with 3 breeders. So please. do not tell me how easy it is to find one. And do not criticize those who have yet to find one. You want EXCELLENT bcs to become the future- MAKE THEM EASIER TO FIND. PEOPLE WANT THEM AND WILL BUY THEM.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

Mr Conner writes,

 

"But honestly, posts claim that by joining and researching this board makes it very easy to find that perfect working bc... and really, it doesnt."

 

Point well taken. I know exactly one sheepdog breeder who has enough pretty good pups I could phone and get a pup within 8 weeks - and she is, by my lights, a puppy mill.

 

Want one of Alastair's or Bev's or Amanda's or . . . . pups? Take a number.

 

Want one of mine? Well, er, not this year.

 

Mr. Conner also writes: " I unfortunatly do not live close to ANY trial". He may live in Alaska or Hawaii in which case he has a point. Otherwise, after one attains one's driver's license the miles seem to melt away. At the trial, he should talk to the novice/novice handlers. They are more likely to have unsold top quality pups.

 

Donald McCaig

[jdarling]

PS. Yes, i did my homework. I contacted the breeder (the ONE) i was referred to on this board. She gave me 2 other names. And the buck stopped there....

 

What happened? Did the two people say, "No, we don't have anything, and we don't know anyone to refer you to..."? Did you come back here and mention that didn't work out and you needed another referral?

 

I unfortunatly do not live close to ANY trial...

 

Where do you live? Did I see something in one of your previous posts about Western Pennsylvania?

[juliepoudrier]

Shaneen,

I don't think I said it was easy to find a working breeder. In fact in this very thread I said it would take *legwork*. As has been pointed out repeatedly in this thread and others, working breeders aren't just breeding willy nilly. You (the general you) aren't going to be able to go out and get instant gratification on finding a well-bred working pup. And these same breeders aren't likely to have a pup available the instant you want one. You need to make contact and talk with these folks and then get on their list. Is this really any different than top name breeders that people buy from in agility now? Do they always have pups available, or do you talk to them and get on a list?

 

I'm sorrry that you feel you can't make it to a trial, ever. You can make it to agility trials can't you? Do you go only to agility trials that are within 100 miles of your home and not on weekends?

 

You're full of criticism for the folks on this board, and apparently working breeders in general, for not making it super simple for the masses to find their dogs, but we're not supposed to criticize people who want such a dog but are unwilling to pursue it on the advice they're given?

 

My first pup I got from a working breeder. That dog took me into open before she was 3, and we've gotten enough open points every year since to go to the national finals had we wanted to. How did I find and convince her breeder that I was someone who deserved a pup, especially when I was essentially a complete nobody? I went to trials and talked to people and watched dogs so that I could pick dogs/breedings that suited me (my training/working style). There is no substitute for face-to-face meetings. Well, unless you prefer to buy from someone's slick website. But maybe it might have occurred to you that someone who puts a lot of time into a website for selling pups is mainly in the business of, well, selling pups and perhaps not so much in the business of making good breeding decisions?

 

That said, there are exceptions. Alasdair and Tricia MacRae have a website. Scott and Jenny Glen have a website, as does Patrick Shanahan. Geri Byrne has a website. Vergil Holland as a website. (There's a few names for you.) Working members of this forum have websites and blogs, which can often be found in their sig lines. Perhaps none of these folks are within an easy drive of you, I don't know. But I just checked these various sites in the space of five minutes, so it's not so difficult as you seem to believe. And if you put a bunch of restrictions on what *you* are willing to do, then don't be surprised when folks don't come up with a long list of folks for you to contact. A friend of mine here wanted a pup and ended up getting one from Geri in CA. Not exactly around the corner.

 

The difference is that you might not find litters on the ground that aren't already spoken for and planned litters might not be coming up any time soon. As Donald noted, good working breeders just aren't pumping out puppies. But it's not *impossible* to find a good working breeder, nor is it *impossible* to get a pup from one. But it's not going to happen if you (the general you) are unwilling to put in the time and effort.

 

J.

[Denise Wall]

At the trial, he should talk to the novice/novice handlers. They are more likely to have unsold top quality pups.

 

Surely this is not what you actually meant to say?

[Cynthia P]

Surely this is not what you actually meant to say?

 

I think he was being facetious; that some novice handlers will breed their novice dogs and there is not a waiting list.

 

I don't think a dog needs to be an open trialled dog to be bred, but i do think it needs to be worked regularly at a high level of work; The majority of large flock farm work would be reasonable, at least the farm work I see here.

 

Cynthia

[Conner22]

I live 20 minutes away from agility trials that go on all winter (15miles from house), and part of the summer. I do not have to take off work to go to these. Some of the trials I go to are 45min-1hr away (45miles from house). Anything farther and my dog goes with a handler. I often take entire summer months off from agility. as for the herding trials: I live in NWPA. I look at the USBCHA website for "upcoming" trials, and cannot find one that is under 4-5hrs away, and all are on the weekend.

If someone has advice on how to find a trial that seems to be in a radius of under 2-3 hrs, its MAYBE feasible. I work 3pm-11pm daily, so i always have mornings off. I am a newly hired individual who is under about 100 people in seniority for vacation over the summer. I work for the government, so there is alot of vacation days avail to them.

 

Juliep

Thank you for the name suggestion, I will be checking into them.

 

I criticize only because of the complaint that the poorly bred dogs take away from the well bred dogs, causing less litter production since supply meets demands (amongst the other arguements). Since the yellow and white area dogs take from the well bred dogs.

I've never asked or suggested I need my whims satisfied immediately. Just wanted to point out that the poorly bred dogs are very well advertised, and the well bred ones are harder to find. If GOOD breeders want to compete more to promote the breed, i was merely suggesting 'getting on board' with advertisement so to speak. Most people in agility assume the dog they are looking for will require a list... I'm all for waiting, or taking "leftovers" from good herding homes. So are many others. They would assume any good breeder has a wait list.

 

As for why the "buck' stopped,I'd have to find the emails. I do know one never got back to me, but she also didnt breed very often at all, like once every 5 yrs, if she still even did. the one was always very busy and apologetic for slow email response-lol a working farm requires alot of attention or something- lol. And the original one i contaced DID give me references. I am on the wait list for another breeder (whom I found) but she is not breeding anytime in the near future. I also found a different one (from a different site) and I almost got a pup, but the timing was bad. He's currently my favorite. I plan on just waiting til he has another litter. Kinda boring. Point being, it was not easy to find. Point also being, if they were easy to find, no matter how long the wait list, they'd have more clients.

 

Perhaps I am not typing something in clear? I WANT to help the good breeder. I am merely bringing to light my own experience in finding one. it was not easy. For people who are on here wanting to promote the good breeder/good practise, and are discouraged by the direction they see breeding going, i thought pointing out that for many, finding YOU (the good breeder) is part of the problem AND solution. Become VISIBLE to the public- not just each other. The ones who set and become the *standard* do so because its what everyone SEES. If I googled border collie, and breeder, or herding or working, and I found 5 website to top end trial handlers or working WORKING bcs, I'd think that you guys were and are the standard. Problem is, that when you do google, you find everything else BUT. so for alot of people, especially newer bc people, the visiblity of the substandard breeder appears to SET the standard. The first thing alot of people on bc board mention is VERSATILITY OF the bc- which really shows you how well the sports breeder is getting it's "message" across. it takes them awhile to hear the GOOD breeder message.

[Conner22]

I also dont know who on here (the boards) is a breeder of the 10,000 members, and have to sometimes guess at who trials or works (at the level described). Since alot of posts are in general topics, and they discuss a wide variety of topics.

Its not about slick websites, per se, but visibility. I'm gonna make a guess that 90% of agility/pet homes are city people, who have NO knowlege or access to the herding world, except on the surface. I dont know any farmer "Dan" down the street, i dont now herding people, nor do I know livestock, etc. Its not about slickness of the advertisement, but the visibility of the message- of the breeder. if i can't even find the breeder.... well- i think you follow.