sometimes I feel like giving up...

[Denise Wall]

See if this makes sense. Dart board analogy - repost.

 

*********************

 

Here's my attempt at explaining what I think happens when working breeds are lost. Assume the border collie is the theoretical breed, where many strong workers existed in the original breeding pool and the need for their work was not lost or reduced over time but instead the dogs became less and less useful for it.

 

I believe it simplifies the concept I’m trying to get across to think of the different levels of workers in concrete groups, even though, in reality, the scale from all to none is on a continuum. And, in reality, each dog of a breeding pair should be evaluated through actual stockwork for each of the many traits involved, and bred to the best complimentary mate in an effort to produce the proper mix of these traits in the progeny. So, this analogy is strictly my theoretical attempt at a simple representation.

 

**************************************************************

 

Imagine something such as a dart board, with a bull’s-eye and several circles that indicate areas farther and farther from the middle target. Let’s say the bull’s-eye circle is red, the next circle is orange, the next yellow, and the very outside circle is white. The actual area within these circles varies depending on the number of dogs in each class at any one time.

 

Now let’s define the groups of dogs within the different colored circles. Please remember all of these categories in this hypothetical situation represent the genetic potential of these dogs. In other words, this is what's in the gene pool. I'm not talking about what people think the dogs are or don't know whether they are or not due to not having tested them:

 

Red circle (bull’s eye) = The very best quality of working border collies. A working definition might be dogs that are exceptional enough to save a great deal of time and manpower for a livestock operation.

 

Orange circle = Useful dogs who save time and manpower for the operation but who are not top quality.

 

Yellow circle = Dogs who will work a little, but wouldn’t be considered useful workers on a real livestock operation because they would cost time and cause too much trouble to train or use. IOW, someone may want to pretend they're actually helping, but they really aren't and sometimes they're hindering. Although they may show some herding instincts, it's not the right total package for work.

 

White circle dogs = Not interested or not capable of doing anything with stock except maybe chasing or showing only prey drive. So, not useful or way less than helpful, and sometimes downright dangerous to the stock.

 

 

Livestock working ability is comprised of many complex traits. These traits all need to fit together just right and in the right amounts for the dog to be the complete package, and be considered a top worker -- the bull’s-eye. Achieving this package with the consistency needed requires stringent evaluation and selection for working ability every generation. Because of the complexity of reproducing behavioral traits such as these, it’s difficult to get this package that is a top worker, in every pup, or even close, despite crossing the best to the best. This is partly because some dogs, for whatever reason, aren’t good breeders, no matter how good they, themselves, are. So let’s say if only red circle dogs were crossed, only 80% of that number of red circle dogs would be produced in the next generation. (This is a hypothetical number – it may actually be more or less.) Therefore, breeding only red circle dogs will not replace all of the red circle dogs, and the number of red circle dogs will drop each generation if only these crosses are used.

 

As with other breeds used for other purposes, many a top sire gets bred to a mediocre bitch. Because the working genes were (are?) still highly concentrated in the border collie gene pool, the chances of hitting upon a dog that may not be a top worker herself but is a good breeder, are still pretty good. This type of good breeder would be mostly in the orange circle with a few in the yellow circle, but almost none in the white circle. Breeders of these top working sires may take a stud pup from these crosses to increase their chances of hitting on a good breeder should their top bitches not be, or not cross well with their choice of stud dog. In other words, the top breeders still rely on the peripheral pools of dogs that are not as good workers themselves but are good breeders, to provide some of their next generations of top red circle dogs. As long as the emphasis is on breeding for work and the momentum of most of the breeding is going toward breeding for the bull’s-eye and concentrating only the working genes, the number of red circle dogs will be replaced each generation and maybe even expanded.

 

Now, suppose the breed becomes popular for dog shows, pets, and dog sports such as agility. Suppose these people do not only buy puppies from the working bred dogs. Now instead of a mostly dead end gene pool -- dogs that will not be bred but only used for dog sports, etc., these dogs with no working ability will be bred as the demand increases. The number of white circle dogs increases. And since people seem to want to claim their “borders” can still herd with the best of them, or the sport dog people need to tap into the working traits for success in their endeavor, they will look to the working circles for breeding to try to get these traits in the pups. Regardless of how it happens, however, now the momentum has changed and the working genes are being diluted, instead of concentrated, in this peripheral gene pool that has formerly been the source of good breeders to help replenish the red circle top workers. As this trend progresses, the good breeders in the peripheral gene pool become rarer, the yellow circle fades more to white, the orange fades more to yellow and the red fades more to orange. Unable to replace themselves without the help of the strong working genes formerly present in the peripheral gene pool, over time, the number of dogs truly in the red circle diminishes until the gene pool is too small.

[Smalahundur]

Hm, maybe a short reply then, maybe what worries me most is that if it works like in both ways Denise and Julie describe, then the working BC is doomed. Because in both (rather similar) explanations a basic premise seems to be (unless I misunderstand) that the working dog community is too small a market to keep a healthy gene pool intact on its own. I for one hope this isn´t the case.

[Liz P]

Thanks for posting that Denise. Your dart board analogy article was the one I was trying to reference. I feel that the "hobby herders" (which includes people who keep sheep mainly to practice for trials) provide at least a good portion of the pool of orange zone dogs in the USA. If the hobby Border Collies owners switch to show or sport Border Collies we lose that gene pool.

[Liz P]

Hm, maybe a short reply then, maybe what worries me most is that if it works like in both ways Denise and Julie describe, then the working BC is doomed. Because in both (rather similar) explanations a basic premise seems to be (unless I misunderstand) that the working dog community is too small a market to keep a healthy gene pool intact on its own. I for one hope this isn´t the case.

 

Not if we can encourage the next generation to start working their dogs on stock. Right now the gene pool is large enough. If we lose numbers to the sport/show world then the breed could very well be in serious trouble.

[Tommy Coyote]

It's not stupid if you are seriously into agility to want to breed better agility dogs.

 

And, it's not any more unreasonable to assume that by breeding one good agility dog to another good agility dog one will get good agility dogs that it is to assume that by breeding one good stockdog to another good stockdog that one will get good stockdogs.

 

While we stockdog people may believe that it is detrimental to the Border Collie breed to breed dogs for anything but stock work, not everyone will feel that way. That doesn't make them stupid. It doesn't even make them wrong.

 

The most that we can say is that breeding dogs for agility/flyball/the breed ring will not produce good stock dogs. Although, I think we can go further and say that breeding for the show ring does have a detrimental effect on the health of the dogs because there is ample evidence to that effect.

 

I'm with Julie. Time for the Sport Collie and the Barbie Collie to go their own way and leave the Border Collie to the stockdog people.

 

Pearse

I think there are already three categories of border collies - show, sport and stockwork. Probably the most anyone can do is make sure that there are strong, healthy working lines. And I think there are lots of people out there who are still breeding exclusively for good working dogs. Sports and show are getting so popular that there isn't going to be anyway to keep the dogs from being bred for whatever their specialty is. I find it expecially worrisome that people are also breeding exclusively for color. That has to be really detrimental.

 

Hopefully there will always be good working dogs in the UK - we can keep importing to keep the lines strong.

[Root Beer]

Thanks for posting that Denise. Your dart board analogy article was the one I was trying to reference. I feel that the "hobby herders" (which includes people who keep sheep mainly to practice for trials) provide at least a good portion of the pool of orange zone dogs in the USA. If the hobby Border Collies owners switch to show or sport Border Collies we lose that gene pool.

 

Then aren't the hobby herders the primary population that you need to target for education?

 

I'm surprised that hobby herders would want show or sport bred Border Collies. I had no idea that was the case. That really seems like a prime target audience for promotion of working bred dogs.

 

I'm not saying it's a bad thing to encourage sport folks to buy working bred dogs. It just seems to me that the hobby herders would be an even more important market for working bred dogs than the sport and pet folks.

 

Even though I prefer a working bred Border Collies for sport, if I found a Border Collie in rescue that I liked that happened to be sport bred (or of unknown origin), I would still consider adopting the dog. But if I were a hobby herder, I would be far more motivated to purchase or adopt a working bred dog.

 

I'm totally a bystander to stock work. Are there really serious hobby herders who go to show and sport breeders for Border Collies?

[Maralynn]

Then aren't the hobby herders the primary population that you need to target for education?

 

I'm surprised that hobby herders would want show or sport bred Border Collies. I had no idea that was the case. That really seems like a prime target audience for promotion of working bred dogs.

 

----

 

I'm totally a bystander to stock work. Are there really serious hobby herders who go to show and sport breeders for Border Collies?

 

A scenario I could totally see happening - The "hobby herders" just may get them from sport people who claim versatility and that their dogs come "from working lines". And they get a dog who can "herd" (aka compete in AKC trials) and do quite well in comparison to the other herding breeds. And they think that is the norm for working ability when in actuality it is diluted from a well bred dog is capable of.

[Liz P]

A scenario I could totally see happening - The "hobby herders" just may get them from sport people who claim versatility and that their dogs come "from working lines". And they get a dog who can "herd" (aka compete in AKC trials) and do quite well in comparison to the other herding breeds. And they think that is the norm for working ability when in actuality it is diluted from a well bred dog is capable of.

 

This is indeed already happening.

[juliepoudrier]

Kristine,

Many (not all) hobby herders start out in another venue, say, agility or obedience and then try their hand at herding. Some will then go on to buy their next dog from a working breeder.

 

But that doesn't change the most fundamental point that the working dog generally contains within its genetic package all the elements needed to also make a good sport dog. That being the case, it seems to me that working breeders really do need to try to sell their "product" to the people who do sports and other activities. Border collies would not have become as popular as they are for all those other activities if the whole working package had been diluted like it has been in so many other breeds.

 

So logically if working breeders want to stop the flow of genes in the direction of dilution (from a working standpoint), they need to convince the sport (and other activities) folks that they don't need dogs bred from top agility dogs but would do just as well to go back to a working breeding for their next agility prospect.

 

This argument is somewhat at odds with the "split them off" argument. I think the reason both arguments are presented is because working breeders realize that convicing the owners of top agility dogs not to go into breeding for themselves but instead to continue to go back to working breeders for their sports dogs is a battle that can't be won.

 

So in the ideal world, people wanting border collies for other activities should go to working breeders. In our real world, this isn't going to happen because folks think they can do better than what the shepherds who produced the breed did and want to create their version of the border collie that is *more suitable* for the activity they pursue (what someone in another thread called "border collie plus").

 

Hobby herders are growing in number, but of course just as with the other-activities breeders, these folks also think they can produce good dogs, so in addition to trying to convince other-activities people to buy from working breeders, we also need to educate the hobby herders about breeding per Denise's dartboard analogy. Unfortunately, many of those hobby herders see the dog they have, probably sport or color bred, which may be doing well at the lowest levels of competition, as worthy of breeding. Some of these dog might indeed be good producers, but it's not likely that someone new to the world of working stockdogs would know or recognize that. So we get the people breeding their dogs for other activities as well as the new hobby herders breeding their other-activity-bred dogs as working dogs. And things just keep getting murkier and messier (and more diluted)..... ETA And I see Maralynn said it much more succintly....

 

J.

[Root Beer]

But that doesn't change the most fundamental point that the working dog generally contains within its genetic package all the elements needed to also make a good sport dog. That being the case, it seems to me that working breeders really do need to try to sell their "product" to the people who do sports and other activities. Border collies would not have become as popular as they are for all those other activities if the whole working package had been diluted like it has been in so many other breeds.

 

I agree with you on that. I will be in the market for a working bred puppy - to raise and train as a sport partner - sometime in the next 5 - 10 years (Of course, I will still have rescues. My crew is a mix of both) I am very interested in exactly how that is going to work out. Are there really working breeders willing to sell a puppy to a clicker trainer who is going to train the dog to do Freestyle? Interesting proposition! We shall see!

 

So in the ideal world, people wanting border collies for other activities should go to working breeders. In our real world, this isn't going to happen because folks think they can do better than what the shepherds who produced the breed did and want to create their version of the border collie that is *more suitable* for the activity they pursue (what someone in another thread called "border collie plus").

 

You know, I have to disagree with you on that. Yes, I am sure that's the case for some people. But for many, they go to sport breeders because it seems like the logical thing to do. Many of them have no knowledge of the fact that Border Collies even still work stock, nor that there are dogs that are still bred to work stock. It makes sense if you think about it. Very few breeds are actually still used to do what they were originally bred to do. Why would the Border Collie be any different if you've never heard different?

 

The other thing is that many of the sport breeders do advertise "working lines" or that their dogs are still trained to work stock. Most of these people don't have any idea that there might be any difference between what those breeders do and what is done on a large commercial sheep farm.

 

I'm not saying it's all ignorance. I'm just saying that most people who buy Border Collies from sport breeders aren't doing so because they think they can do better than shepherds who produced the breed. Such a thing is not even on their radar. They want a dog for Agility - they go to someone who does Agility and breeds. That's the way it is in every other breed and the fact that there might be a difference is not readily apparent to many, many, many people who participate in dog sports.

 

Hobby herders are growing in number, but of course just as with the other-activities breeders, these folks also think they can produce good dogs, so in addition to trying to convince other-activities people to buy from working breeders, we also need to educate the hobby herders about breeding per Denise's dartboard analogy. Unfortunately, many of those hobby herders see the dog they have, probably sport or color bred, which may be doing well at the lowest levels of competition, as worthy of breeding. Some of these dog might indeed be good producers, but it's not likely that someone new to the world of working stockdogs would know or recognize that. So we get the people breeding their dogs for other activities as well as the new hobby herders breeding their other-activity-bred dogs as working dogs.

 

That's why I see the hobby herders as the prime education ground. Again, I'm not saying it's useless to educate among the pet and sport folks. It just seems to me that the serious hobby herders - especially those who would breed - are a critical target for your message. Sounds to me like they might be the most important target of all.

[Smalahundur]

Not if we can encourage the next generation to start working their dogs on stock. Right now the gene pool is large enough. If we lose numbers to the sport/show world then the breed could very well be in serious trouble.

 

You are kinda missing my point, I said the working BC is doomed when the scenario´s painted by Denise and Julia are what´s happening. Why, well because they both say that the working dog gene pool is too small to survive without the support of the market for dog people who couldn´t care less about stockwork.

I don´t think that´s true, and even if it is , then nothing else can be blamed for the (hypothetical) demise of the working BC than a lack of interest for stockwork.

[Brad]

I guess what I don't "get" is ... if the Sporter Collie people do not care about working ability, and in fact, are breeding for specific agility traits, why is anyone getting so butthurt about what the dogs are then called? I mean ... if you're breeding so far away from what a Border Collie truly is, is it still a Border Collie? What good is a dog that has been bred so that the "genetic" Early Takeoff Syndrome (why do I giggle every time I type that?) doesn't develop ... if the desire to work livestock isn't there either?

 

Something I don't understand is where it's been said that "sport collie" people don't want "working ability"? As someone that primarily does sports (agility, flyball, disc, sport-herding), I certainly do want dogs from working lines. I suppose I'm never going to go to the Worlds, or maybe not even nationals, but my preference in dogs is Border Collies, and when looking for a dog, I'm looking for all the traits of a great stock dog.

I think I read also that all the bighats in agility also look back to stockdog breeders for their new pups, so they must be looking for those qualities too.

I guess where the problem lies, is when a bighat agility handler decides they want to make a few bucks and breed for whatever reason they want to breed. Which leads to people new to border collies buying from soandso, since they saw them win a title or some such thing.

I know when I was first looking for a BC, I had no idea there was even a difference or that these dogs came with " working ability". But now that I know, I do look for working lines.

[Conner22]

This topic sounds like alot of herding people talking about sports people.

I am a "sports" person.

Sport bred BC are NOT taking over the sport. Has anyone been to nationals? Alot- ALOT of those dogs are WORKING bred or RESCUE dogs, NOT sports bred. And at nationals, a good 90% are SPAYED OR NEUTERED.

 

From what I can tell, sports bred dogs are taking the place of BACKYARD bred bcs, not working line bcs. Backyard dilutes that working ability that is being discussed just as sports breeding does.

 

Alot of agility people see *sports* bred bcs as OVER THE TOP spinning dogs. Not as the FUTURE Of the sport. Many people wanting a BC for agility talk about working lines as preferred for *mental stability* with athleticism.

 

As for US EVIL sports people, all we really are is the PET HOMES that you used to sell your "extra's" to, but we are doing more STUFF with our PETS. I.E. Agility, flyball, hiking, dock diving, etc. We are still pet homes at the end of the day. And pet homes use to breed their pet bcs, and sell them. But guess what, they have NEVER replaced the working dog, ever! Nor ruined the gene pool.

 

Also, working lines, you are NOTORIOUSLY hard to find. Make yourselves more avail to the public via the internet and magical things will happen. When I type in border collie, herding, etc in a search engine, all I get is sports OR show OR flyball. I never find working bcs. I may want, but I cannot find...... (yes I know a couple of working places, but it took me years to find).

[Smokjbc]

Arguments like this are always handicapped by the fact that sports enthusiasts are convinced they need a specially bred dog to do it while most working folks know that the traits that make a border collie a good agility dog are usually a "given", even with a dog that might not be top-quality for stockwork. I firmly believe that, just as it's questionable to breed a hobby herding dog that has not had it's "border-collieness" truly tested at the highest level of work, that is is likewise irresponsible to breed dogs for companion sports. The sooner working people can distance themselves from that, the better.

 

I haven't bred a litter for over 10 years now because I haven't had a dog that I really thought was breed worthy, even if they were useful and good working dogs. If my Jet works out to be as good as I hope, I might breed her but the jury is still out and will be for some time. Meanwhile, I get tons of "champion" bred sports collies out to work sheep and the horse folks around here breed anything that's black and white. So it's anyone's guess what the border collie's "given" is going to be in the future.

[Maralynn]

I agree with you on that. I will be in the market for a working bred puppy - to raise and train as a sport partner - sometime in the next 5 - 10 years (Of course, I will still have rescues. My crew is a mix of both) I am very interested in exactly how that is going to work out. Are there really working breeders willing to sell a puppy to a clicker trainer who is going to train the dog to do Freestyle? Interesting proposition! We shall see!

 

Absolutely you'll find them. I would venture to guess that more often than not a working breeder will be happy to sell a pup to anyone who will care for the dog properly and use it's mental ability. For example you find statements to this effect on Christine Henry's site. Sure, some breeders won't, but this is the case with any working breed.

[juliepoudrier]

Kristine,

I agree that we should be educating the hobby herders, as I said in my previous post. But if, as you claim (and I don't disagree) many folks are buying sports bred or BYB dogs out of ignorance (not knowing there's anything else out there), then doesn't it make sense to try to educate *everyone* and not just the hobby herders? One could argue that the hobby herders, at least, are proving that their dogs will work, even if to a low standard, which might at least create more yellow-circle dogs, while it's the other folks who aren't ever working their dogs on stock and yet still breeding them who are creating the ever-larger white circle.

 

J.

[juliepoudrier]

Shaneen,

I don't know why you or anyone else would take this discussion to be about "evil sports people" when in fact it's about breeding. If you're not breeding your sports or pet dog, then no one has claimed that you are evil (well, in fact, I don't think the term evil has been used at all until you used it). Why is it that someone always turns these discussions into "those mean working people are calling me bad names"? That doesn't add to the discussion, which is really about who should be breeding border collies and why. If you're breeding your sports dog and selling to other sports/pet people, then sure, some of us would have a problem with that, but that's not the same as anyone calling you evil. And going there really just makes the rest of your logical argument seem worthless.

 

I haven't been to Nationals, but I guess the first question I'd ask is whether the dogs you say are working bred are truly working bred or rather first or second (or later) generation dogs from working lines. There is a difference (per Denise's dart board analogy).

 

J.

[Conner22]

The "evil" was generic sarcasm, sorry - I TRIED to make it obvious .... because the claim is that sports breeding will ruin the breed, and sports dogs should be classified as something else than a BC.....I am technically "represent" sports, although I totally support the working dog. That is how I would be "classified" by this board. I am a sports person.

As for working bcs at nationals, I dont know if they are from open level dogs, or simply from working farms, Didnt inquire that much.

But the point is claiming SPORTS bred has taken over the sport is totally false. And being argued over 4 pages of this topic.

Based off a false premise. Again, many sports people can TELL if a dog is sports bred, and usually these are the over the top spinners on the course, which most agility people DON'T want.

 

EDIT: the claim is that SPORTS bred is taking over the BORDER COLLIE breed. And they have yet to even take over the sport!!!! There is still a very large working bred presence in agility. And alot/majority of sports dogs are neutered/spayed.

[Maralynn]

The "evil" was generic sarcasm, sorry - I TRIED to make it obvious .... because the claim is that sports breeding will ruin the breed, and sports dogs should be classified as something else than a BC.....I am technically "represent" sports, although I totally support the working dog. That is how I would be "classified" by this board. I am a sports person.

 

So you run working bred dogs?

[juliepoudrier]

Shaneen,

Unless you know for a fact that most sports people are buying strictly working-bred dogs and not one-offs, then you can't say that this discussion is based on a false premise. As a person who's very active in the working-dog culture I have to say that I have been approached *once* in 10 years about working dogs for sports purposes and that was at a sheepdog trial where several agility folks had come to watch and inquire about working dogs. If nothing else, this forum is a great resource for finding working breeders, but I don't see lots of folks asking.

 

In fact, at least one other sports person in this same thread and others has clearly stated (as you did) that people have a hard time finding working-bred dogs or simply don't know they exist and therefore end up buying from what they do know: people doing the same things they do or even from backyard breeders.

 

It can't be both ways (that is, you can't claim that most of the top agility dogs are working bred and at the same time say working-bred dogs are impossible to find, since per your claim top agility trainers are finding them).

 

J.

[Conner22]

My border collies are not sports bred.

But they aren't herding elite bred.

They are from working farms that use their dogs to herd the sheep/cattle, and sell their pups to mostly herding (sheep or cattle) homes.

[Conner22]

Considering that represented at nationals is from accross the country and all walks of life, I dont know why I cant say finding a working bred dog for myself or for my friends was difficult. It was. The internet is very little help, this board dislikes a majority of breeders, and I HAVE posted on here asking about working homes.... I got ONE name- ONE! That was it. I posted asking about working breeders on here at least 2x! And I have ONE name to show for it.

[Smalahundur]

My border collies are not sports bred.

But they aren't herding elite bred.

They are from working farms that use their dogs to herd the sheep/cattle, and sell their pups to mostly herding (sheep or cattle) homes.

 

Just like my Tauta, she´s destined for farm work though.

Pity that Julia or Denise don´t respond to the questions I raised....

[Conner22]

Perhaps I assumed wrong, but I thought a majority of the posts were about sports bred dogs becoming the majority, therefore causing a smaller gene pool of good working bred dogs, creating a vicious cycle.

If the sports bred dog is not even a majority in its SPORT, I believe it is a telling sign that it is NOT the future of the breed, nor endangering the current or future gene pool.

Sports people LIKE working bcs. THe problem is, right now, if I WAS A NEWBIE looking for a bc, I would not be able to find you. I have a couple of working lines I keep track of. But when I first started, I couldn't find a "working" bred bc anywhere, especially online where it was all SHOW or SPORT.

 

If working is the future of the bc breed, and pet/agility homes should get a pup from a working lines, simply put, become more available/findable.

[juliepoudrier]

Smalahundur,

I have responded to your questions. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're asking. Maybe you need to try again. Frankly, I have been in on these sorts of discussions many, many times over my years on this forum and it does get tiresome responding to the same old questions and comments. Ask a specific question and I will try to answer, but beyond that I don't intend to expend tons of time and energy on threads like this anymore.

 

J.