sometimes I feel like giving up...

[juliepoudrier]

To the stock dog people: What percent of open handlers in the US and Canada actually earn their living from ranching cattle and/or sheep? (The answer to this question will influence my response to the "working" question.)

I'm not sure how the answer to this would influence your response, because I'm sure you already know that the number of people who make their living solely aising cattle or sheep is relatively small (if you ignore corporate farms). Many of these folks, do however, at least supplement their living by raising livestock. I fall into that category. I wouldn't raise livestock if I didn't have useful dogs to help me do so.

 

If it's the same old argument that's always made by non-farmers, then I'll just counter now by noting, as Denise already has, that people eat meat. As long as people eat meat, there will be a *need.* So anyone who wants to trot out the argument that "the times they are a'changin' and the dogs will change right along with them" needs to be reminded (and this has already been said in this thread and on this forum uncountable times, sigh) that the intense selection for stockwork is what made the border collie what it is. And it's what made the border collie the sort of dog that people want to have in order to be competitive in agility and other sports. Change the selection pressure and you *will* end up with a different sort of dog.

 

I guess these perennial discussions, which always go the same way, illustrate one thing: it simply must be human nature to refuse to learn from past mistakes.

 

J.

[Ooky]

That is why I am interested in how the nice working bred pups are doing in agility. It easy to claim and most people do claim to have agility dogs when what they really mean is their dogs knows some obstacles.

 

While I can't answer this question, this was not what I was implying at all. You seem to be getting at the point that the "nice working bred dogs" don't do as well in agility as whatever you consider working bred, based on who's tops in the rankings. But this doesn't prove anything because we've discussed ad nauseum why many sports people don't have working bred Ferraris and that BCs don't need to be bred for agility (hate to repeat what so many have said so much better), because breeding for work is what made them the ultimate agility dog to begin with.

 

Of course, a dog bred for a lower working standard, or even no working standard at all and just from working lines, may do just as well in agility as the best-bred dogs. I maintain that's because you don't need to breed for agility, and you can ride on the coattails of the strength of the lines and previous working breedings behind those dogs for quite a while before you end up with a poor agility dog. Not true with actual working ability - that needs to be strongly selected for in every generation.

[Mark Billadeau]

I don´t think that´s what she means. I think she means while demanding to be the only ones to have the right to breed The One and Only True Border Collie, they don´t seem to have the capacity to meet demands for that praticular breed of dog.

The repeated comments have been for us to increase the number of working bred litters and to advertise (preferably on the web) our pups so that our "product" can out compete the "inferior product" (in terms of genetics). Do you really think encouraging high volume breeding is the way to promote better stockdog genetics?

[juliepoudrier]

I don´t think that´s what she means. I think she means while demanding to be the only ones to have the right to breed The One and Only True Border Collie, they don´t seem to have the capacity to meet demands for that praticular breed of dog.

Um, I don't think anyone is demanding a particular right. At least here, capitalism rules, and anyone can breed dogs if they choose to do so. I can't believe I'm having to say this yet again, but what would really be nice is if people would recognize that breeding involves selection pressure (I know you must understand breeding since IIRC you are involved in a rare horse breeding) and it's the selection pressure that creates the end result. Change the selection pressure and you change the end result. Sports are a relatively recent phenomenon, so maybe it's more difficult for the average person to see how selecting for sports will change the breed overall, since even dogs bred for sports are not *yet* far removed from their genetic working roots. But one would think with the very obvious example of selection pressure changing a breed sitting right in front of us--the conformation-bred border collie--it wouldn't be such a difficult concept to grasp. How many sports people are seeking strictly conformation-bred dogs (and I'm not talking bred some other way and then dual registered, but dogs strictly from show lines, for generations, on both the top and bottom of the pedigree)? And if the answer to that question is "none" or "not many," why do you (the general you) suppose that is?

 

Here's a very relevant quote from George Santayana:

Progress, far from consisting in change, depends on retentiveness. [emphasis added] When change is absolute there remains no being to improve and no direction is set for possible improvement: and when experience is not retained, as among savages, infancy is perpetual. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

 

We've seen any number of dog breeds made useless by ignoring the true nature of selection pressure. Do we have to do that to the border collie, too? To all those who cry "Change is inevitable! Get over it!" I say this: Do you really want to change the dog you love for its incredible athletic ability and intelligence and willingness to work with a human simply for the sake of change? Do you realize what this can mean for the breed in the future? Do you think the breed 100 years from now, if not bred with work as the main selection pressure, will be the same as it is today? Granted, 100 years from now won't affect your immediate sports prospects, but isn't there something to be said for preserving things that are good for future generations?

 

J.

[Smalahundur]

If you can't see the difference between breeding for a dog that can spend a couple of hours sorting lambs, holding them while they are darting around trying to get back to their mothers --- and a dog that can do a weave pole (or whatever) the fastest ... then it's a waste of time trying to explain "the why" to you.

 

I don´t recall asking for any "why" from you. I´m only interested in working dogs (yes, the stockwork sense of the word). On differences between agility and stockwork I do no not need your "expertise" thank you very much.

I just say I understand the points the "other side" , I mean the sports people, raise. The fact is that the sport market is a lot bigger, and those are people not necessarily interested in sheep.

I just say I can imagine they like to do their own thing,and breed with their sport in mind. Alot of working dog breeders have expressed their opion about this, that BC only should be bred with working ability as a goal (which would be fine by me!). But if they are not even coming close to meeting the demands of the "sport market" (you know in the real world not the imagined ideal one in your mind), one shouldn´t be surprised they want to breed their succesfull champion dogs against eachother. Because, well you say it yourself it´s quite a diffent set of skills.

[juliepoudrier]

Smalahundur,

Do you think we can keep this discussion civil? IMO, you're coming very close to flaming, and there's no reason for that.

 

J.

[abcollie]

I don´t recall asking for any "why" from you. I´m only interested in working dogs (yes, the stockwork sense of the word). On differences between agility and stockwork I do no not need your "expertise" thank you very much.

I just say I understand the points the "other side" , I mean the sports people, raise. The fact is that the sport market is a lot bigger, and those are people not necessarily interested in sheep.

I just say I can imagine they like to do their own thing,and breed with their sport in mind. Alot of working dog breeders have expressed their opion about this, that BC only should be bred with working ability as a goal (which would be fine by me!). But if they are not even coming close to meeting the demands of the "sport market" (you know in the real world not the imagined ideal one in your mind), one shouldn´t be surprised they want to breed their succesfull champion dogs against eachother. Because, well you say it yourself it´s quite a diffent set of skills.

 

OK ... question for you ... how many BREEDS compete at the top levels of agility?

How many breeds compete at the top level of USBCHA OPEN trials ... I can answer that one almost 100% Border Collies (there have been a few Kelpies).

 

Why ... because any breed can do agility ... NOT every breed can do stockwork (which is the answer to WHY Border Collies are the top agility dogs).

[Pippin's person]

I guess these perennial discussions, which always go the same way, illustrate one thing: it simply must be human nature to refuse to learn from past mistakes.

 

J.

 

I think it's also tied to human nature to want to have your cake and eat it, too--and that gets pointed out in these kinds of discussions as well. It's sometimes difficult to accept the consequences of some of our choices and so it seems better to argue that the consequences are overblown, untrue, driven by politics, purity, elitism, whatever.

 

People will do what they will do--more and more it seems to me that in the end what we (the very broad "we") have to remind one another is that you have to own and respect the consequences of your choices--and you generally can't choose or even anticipate what those consequences might be.

 

If you choose to buy a Border Collie puppy bred for some reason other than its ability to work livestock to a reasonable standard, that's your choice. Some of its known consequences have been amply laid out here. Those are yours, too.

 

(And I say this as someone who has two dogs bought as puppies from a sports breeder.)

[Denise Wall]

I know I said this or something similar a few pages back, but all other arguments aside, breeds originated and maintained for long periods of time with strong selection pressure to a high level of physical and mental performance (work) can fall part, as it were, when the pieces aren't kept together in the right way (that would be continued strong selection for the work they were bred for) It's a delicate balance of physical and mental traits selected for in working stock. It may not be as simple as breeding for agility,etc., and you have a different type of border collie. Changing what is at the very core of the breed may make it fall apart all together.

 

The US German Shepherd is a striking example of both physical and mental disaster of this sort of change. Most of the press is about the physical deterioration of this breed, and this is most obvious to the naked eye, but the temperaments of these non work selected GSDs have taken a huge hit as well. Most of the working GSD type dogs are now imported from other countries, or bred in private facilities like the dogs for the blind, due to the unsound structure and unstable temperament of the typical GSD in this country.

[Mark Billadeau]

The Irish Setter is another example: Today's Red Setter

[Eileen Stein]

I think she means while demanding to be the only ones to have the right to breed The One and Only True Border Collie, they don´t seem to have the capacity to meet demands for that praticular breed of dog.

 

I don't understand where the words "demanding" or "right" come into this. We are saying two things. First, if the great majority of the breed comes to be bred for a different purpose, then the breed will become a different breed. Working ability will be lost. You may continue to call it a border collie in the future, but it will not be the same as what a border collie has been in the past. That has nothing to do with "rights" or "demands." That is a simple statement of fact.

 

Second, we are saying that if you appreciate the real border collie breed, or have any gratitude or empathy for the livestock producers who developed the breed and still need the breed to be able to do the work it was developed for, please do not act in such a way as to undermine the breed. Please, if you want a border collie, buy from good breeders of working border collies. Don't just say, "Well, they don't have websites, and they're not marketing to us, so it's too much trouble to find them." Please take the trouble. If you truly make this effort and are truly unable to find such a pup, then we have a different story from the one presented here -- a story I have never in fact encountered. If you don't particularly want a border collie, but just want a dog of the size, shape, athleticism and trainability to do well in agility, then please go with a rescue or a different breed.

[Brad]

So what you're saying is working breeders should not be breeding for function but for profit or market share.

 

Well, yes, but no. I mean that thy should continue to do what they do now, but also change what they do now in regards to volume and advertising. This would be for the sole purpose of getting more working dogs into the demand side of the equation.

[Tea]

Please be patient with an idealist and romantic.

 

Not sure if this belongs here but this is a few words of thanks to the people who came before me and are right now breeding thses working dogs.

 

I could not do my agriculture program with out them

I could not..........

 

 

The dogs due to people breeding them for stockwork enable me to take out a flock of close to 150 head and forage them loose.

 

These sheep, these dogs are saving our wildlife project.

 

They are feeding the food bank.

 

They are giving young people jobs and hope.

 

They are helping an old man keep his house by giving him a job.

 

They are teaching young people a connection back to the land and farming.

 

They are encouraging local farmers and ranchers.

 

I may be a poet.....maybe not even suited to do this.

 

But I know without the dogs it would be impossible.

 

It is not a new idea foraging sheep loose.....it is very old.

 

And I am standing on the backs or those shepherds, farmers, ranchers and handlers that have preseved these dogs.

 

They are important

 

A jewel

 

 

Thank you

 

 

your friend

 

Tea

[Mark Billadeau]

Well, yes, but no. I mean that thy should continue to do what they do now, but also change what they do now in regards to volume and advertising. This would be for the sole purpose of getting more working dogs into the demand side of the equation.

With our current over population of dogs you're saying we should breed more.

[ShoresDog]

To clarify -- I'm kind of overwhelmed by this topic's length -- is this where the thread is going?

 

1. More than enough border collies are being bred to satisfy the desires of working, sports, and pet homes, and the excess end up in pounds or rescues.

 

2. The proportion of border collies puppies that are not bred for working is large.

 

3. The working folk alone do not breed enough litters to satisfy all the border collie demand.

 

4. Some sports homes say that they would like to get working-bred pups if it were easier to do.

 

5. But since (i) too many border collies are already bred (see 1), and (ii) it is a difficult but very important challenge to breed to a high working standard, the working folk are unlikely to breed more litters or advertise on the web.

 

6. The working folk would like to see the sports and pet homes get dogs from other breeds or rescues rather drive the breeding of more non-working-bred border collies.

 

??

 

If the sports and pet homes aren't willing to go the rescue or other breed route, where do we go from there??

[Lenajo]

If the sports and pet homes aren't willing to go the rescue or other breed route, where do we go from there??

 

You can't help those that won't help themselves. If pet/sport homes want the breed to have the availability of the Lab or the GSD, then they will have to deal with the inevitable loss of quality that happens when that occurs.

 

Of course when that loss if great enough, the sport/pet people can pick a new breed that hasn't been ruined physically and tempermentally Their requirements, as pointed out here, can be met by many breeds and mixes. It was only whim and fad that made many of them insist that a Border Collie was the only breed that would do for them.

 

Those of us that depend on this breed will get to pick up the pieces that they left- hopefully having maintained a few lines that are still useful working Border Collie to base on.

 

Unfortunately we are running out of breeds to ruin. We keep trying to repeat past mistakes.

 

That mistake, for that that are not clear, is breeding dogs for anything less than qualities that directly/indirectly made them successful in that pet/sport home in the first place. For the Border Collie that was working sheep to a high functional standard. Its not about breeding for the masses to have a pet or a sport dog pup available at a week's notice.

 

When you contribute - by breeding or buying - to anything less you are contributing directly to this breed becoming just another former glory one. If you love what this breed is, then doing some leg work and buying well is little enough thanks to offer for those that made these dogs what they are.

[Eileen Stein]

Well, yes, but no. I mean that thy should continue to do what they do now, but also change what they do now in regards to volume and advertising. This would be for the sole purpose of getting more working dogs into the demand side of the equation.

 

"Just do what you're doing now, except . . ." is not as harmless a piece of advice as it appears. I'm reminded of what the conformation advocates say: "We don't want you to change the border collie, we just want it to be better. You don't have to choose between brains and beauty, you can have them both -- a dog who excels in the field and in the show ring! Just do what you're doing now, except . . ." When you change focus, you change something. If you get working breeders more focused on how to appeal to the agility market, and more dependent on the agility market, you are introducing changes that IMO will not be as limited as you think.

 

5. But since (i) too many border collies are already bred (see 1), and (ii) it is a difficult but very important challenge to breed to a high working standard, the working folk are unlikely to breed more litters or advertise on the web.

 

I believe that good working breeders on the whole would breed more if the demand they experienced was greater, and I believe it would be better for the breed if they did (and if other border collie breeders bred less, which would happen if demand shifted away from those others and toward the working breeders). I don't believe that good working breeders are on the whole likely to advertise to the sport market, and I think it's better for the breed that they don't. Thus, I would like to persuade those in the sports market who are set upon getting a border collie to focus their demand toward good working breeders.

 

If the sports and pet homes aren't willing to go the rescue or other breed route, where do we go from there??

 

Down the road to ruin, I suppose. And it will become very obvious that we should have adopted a more "circle the wagons" strategy than we did. Perhaps the need for strict separatism will become widely apparent before it's too late for it to save the working border collie.

[bcnewe2]

WHoever said that there are not enough well bred working border collies to fill the needs of "sport" homes?

 

STM it's the people that are farther along in the sport world that want a "better" dog, those that are just starting will start with their rescues or the dogs that they have at home. As they climb the sports ladder they may decide they need a "better" dog so they go on a quest for that dog. It's simular to the working or trialing people. As they learn what they want and need they are on a quest to find that better dog. But the working people quickly learn that to have the best you have to breed for it. Not take the chances that sport people do with breeding for lesser qualities or at least not a full deck when it comes to these dogs.

 

SO....just how many open handlers or farmers training for more than simple gathers are out there breeding? Quite a few as I see it.

Right now off the top of my head, I know of several litters that are on the ground and I don't even consider myself in the "know" anymore. Are they the best? well if you ask the breeders(bythat I mean working breeders) they are either the best (in their minds eye) or they are on a mission to get to the best of what they can breed. Certainly very good sport candidates as they were breed for the "work" so other things are going to come with ease to these dogs.

I might add to the person that asks how are working dogs doing out in the sporting world? Quite well considering it's where the "good" sport people are coming to get ther foundation stock from.

 

I see it as people getting in a hurry and making do with a "lesser" dog cause they dont' have the paitence to research and find what they really need or want.

For me, the dogs are out there and LORDY...we don't need to breed more to fill a void when there is really no void at all. If there was, we wouldn't be finding all these dogs in rescue. Granted you rarely find decent working dogs (that is to do "work" with) in rescue but they are out there non the less. Given a few weeks and phone calls, I could find all the quaility puppies I could ever want or need and I'm not that speical with all the connections to the "big Hats" that people seem to be refering to.

Just my 2cents worth.

[Brad]

Don't just say, "Well, they don't have websites, and they're not marketing to us, so it's too much trouble to find them." Please take the trouble. If you truly make this effort and are truly unable to find such a pup, then we have a different story from the one presented here -- a story I have never in fact encountered.

 

Eileen, the problem, to me (based solely on my experience as a sport person) is that I didn't know that I needed to take the trouble to find something I didn't know existed. I knew BCs were smart, and I loved the look of them, and I knew that in the sports I wanted to be involved in, they were darn good. For agility, probably the best. Flyball, not the best, but I was interested in a companion, not a competitive prospect. I had no idea how the BC got smart, they probably just come that way. I got a great dog. He might even be able to work sheep well. He has great dogs several lines back. But none of that meant anything to me.

I got lucky and found these boards, and yes, once I learned what I was looking for and why, it was easy to find. Easy being a relative word here. Most puppy purchasers are not going to do what I've done to meet the people I have. I also got lucky in that my agility coach is also into stock work, and encourages working lines for anything. Through her, I found the somewhat secretive world of stock dogs. And where I live, I can find trainers and sheep at 4 or 5 different places within a 20 minute drive. It was still not a well known world.

But I did it, and found a working bred dog, and yes, it can be found once you know to look. My point of websites is to publicize the ideals we talk about here, and make it easier to find. Not easy to find if you're looking easy, but in your face easy when I try to find something on those really smart dogs I saw on TV. The breeders don't even have to have litters, but just info on what and why a person wants a working bred dog, and exactly what a working bred dog was. My first guy was sold as working lines, and I didn't know enough to ask the questions that would have shown he was in fact not a working dog.

We, the people that support this idealism, need to advertise and promote, and act as advocates for the ideal. Without that, this all comes down to this small group continually discussing the demise of the working BC, without actively growing the ideal.

As a primarily sport person, I would NOT buy a sport bred dog. I understand the point, I really get it, and I've done the leg work to get what I've got now. Most won't. It needs to be easy, and not the kind of easy that takes finding boards, reading 40 historic threads, volunteering at trials, creeping around facebook at every stock person that will have you as a friend. Really, I'm there now, I have people that can get me a working dog, and it only took a year of breaking into the stock world. Only a year. Really, it wasn't all that easy. Worth it?? Absolutely! Easy?? Not so much...

 

Given the choice, a person, sport or pet, looking for their first BC, will choose to go down the street, look at the closest litter, pick the cutest puppy and look for key words from the breeder to justify considering this person a good breeder. So unless the working dog ideal is blatantly obvious, publicized and readily accesible from their arm chair, they will do the wrong thing, 8 times out of 10.

 

time is at a premium lately, I've just had a very premature baby girl and I'm at the hospital a lot, and painting and taking care of 6 dogs, but when things settle a bit in the next month or so, I'll put my money where my mouth is and build a website about all of this stuff. Once I get there though, you all have to help feed me the right info

 

 

As a side note, as I mentioned I moderate an aquarium board. Recently a member posted pics of his new litter of puppies from a breeding with a neighbour, and I kinda went off on him. I had no less than 50 people attack me for attempting to deny him his "right" to breed his little fluffy for whatever reason he chooses. After all the stats I provided from national rescues, etc, and even after he admitted it was all based on making money, everyone still took his side. I had maybe 3 members actually support my arguments. It's really sad, and unless we, all of us, get the message from this thread out there, it's just not going to be heard.

[Brad]

"Just do what you're doing now, except . . ." is not as harmless a piece of advice as it appears. I'm reminded of what the conformation advocates say: "We don't want you to change the border collie, we just want it to be better. You don't have to choose between brains and beauty, you can have them both -- a dog who excels in the field and in the show ring! Just do what you're doing now, except . . ." When you change focus, you change something. If you get working breeders more focused on how to appeal to the agility market, and more dependent on the agility market, you are introducing changes that IMO will not be as limited as you think.

 

Eileen, your opinion is probably very valid, and I can't say I have a solution. I just know the resistance I get from people I know, and talk to about this. Unless the message is beaten into them, they, the average dog purchaser, will continue to think we're crazy. They think that, ya know...

[Carlasl]

time is at a premium lately, I've just had a very premature baby girl and I'm at the hospital a lot, and painting and taking care of 6 dogs, but when things settle a bit in the next month or so, I'll put my money where my mouth is and build a website about all of this stuff.

 

Brad,

 

Congrats on the birth of your daughter, I hope she is doing well and will come home soon,NICU can be tough, hang in there.

[Eileen Stein]

Eileen, your opinion is probably very valid, and I can't say I have a solution. I just know the resistance I get from people I know, and talk to about this. Unless the message is beaten into them, they, the average dog purchaser, will continue to think we're crazy. They think that, ya know...

 

I know they do. I appreciate that you don't think that, and I appreciate your willingness to try to identify and address the problem. I'll be of whatever help I can in your project.

[Brad]

Brad,

 

Congrats on the birth of your daughter, I hope she is doing well and will come home soon,NICU can be tough, hang in there.

 

Thanks Carla! The nicu staff have been amazing. Elise, the little one, hit 5 pounds last night. She was born at 26 weeks weighing 958 grams, so it's been a long journey. But we're already planning a dog for her to start handling

[Eileen Stein]

I think I need to close this thread now. I generally consider 250 posts the ceiling for a thread, and we've gone well beyond that. AFAIK, this is the most posts we've ever had in a single thread. Thank you, everyone, for your questions, comments and opinions.