sometimes I feel like giving up...

[juliepoudrier]

So yes, it's out there for those who go looking for it -- But if you want sport people to change, you have to educate us. Perhaps the easiest way to do that is to come play agility with us with your working bred dogs.

Karissa,

I have a couple that I think would enjoy agility, and I've often thought of just playing at it in my backyard. Unfortunately between the farm and sheepdog trialing, time (and money) is at a premium. That said, I certainly have friends who do agility, though most of them work with other breeds. Those friends are well aware of what I do with my dogs, and I'd hope that if they knew someone looking for a working-bred border collie they'd give that person my contact information. And that seems to be the case.

 

I'm hoping that forums and discussions like this are helping to educate people. The working dog folks certainly do a lot of promoting here, time and again. Those of you who do sports and come to this forum now know about working dogs from us. I hope you're sharing that information with others. I also always make a point to willingly answer questions when approached by the general public at sheepdog trials or demos, or even things like fiber festivals. That same philosophy is the reason I keep responding to these same threads, even after 10 years of doing so.

 

As for working breeders getting themselves out there, some do and some don't. The fact is that most of these folks aren't breeding a whole lot (as Linda--DixieGirl--noted) and probably they don't find a need to advertise via the Web. I don't think they deserve blame for that. As I've noted, some of these same big hats have sold pups to agility homes and to very novice working homes. It's really not impossible to find them. Several of us have spent a good bit of time today providing resources.

 

Interestingly, I got my first border collie from rescue 11 years ago this month, and back then I had a vague idea that I might do agility with her. Then I was introduced to the idea of stockwork (by a rescuer) and the rest is history. I think that the more people just talk, as we are doing here, the more the word will get out. Obviously we count on the sports folks to help with that....

 

J.

[Brad]

I don't think they deserve blame for that

 

I don't think blame is the right word. If these breeders had websites with general info about working dogs, not necceserily to advertise pups, but just an information page, it would be a self serving activity in perhaps providing more exposure to the cause of keeping the working genes.

I realize that time and effort is required, but quick sites can be put up without a lot of time or cost. Updating would only need to be done if/when a litter needed more homes than reserved for that breeding, etc.

I know myself that had that type of info been more readily available, my choices would have been different. I wouldn't have got my boy, which would have been tragic, but I would have learned a lot more, a lot quicker than I did. Really, if I hadn't stumbled across this forum, my second dog would have come from a really strong sport line without me ever knowing about "working lines" (although my agility coach would have drilled it into me eventually )

[shysheperdess]

I know this is KINDA off topic but this subject comes back full circle on the much heated debate of working-bred dogs and good handlers competing in AKC herding events. I know this is not the only venue that does agility, but a large portion of bc's and agility people compete in AKC events, and alot of first time dog people, etc. get into dog training in general with AKC associated events.

 

MOST newer dog people start out by getting a pup, they take an obedience class, they find that they like training and might want to compete, they take a beginning agility class, most people competing in obedience/agility compete in AKC events. They see an advertisment or hear of an AKC herding trial through these people or similar circles. They go, they see from a proper working bred bc and awesome handler/trainer what a bc is SUPPOSED to look and work like. They sign up for herding lessons, they learn more about the bc as a working stockdog and supporting the breeds original purpose, yada yada.

 

This was how is happened for me, I was fortunate to see such a dog/handler team(who also compete in USBCHA trials) and never looked back. But I had NO idea about USBCHA trials, the working-dog divide or controversy until I was educated by someone. This info or info on working-dog breeders is just not that openly available.

 

ALOT of hobby herders do AKC type herding events or ASCA or AHBA, agility and a herding community are connected through the AKC. It's all connected in terms of availability of good working-bred dogs and word of mouth etc. I feel sometimes the divide between the people who choose to compete in multiple venues and people who disagree with that could in a twisted way BE detrimental to the breed. By having GOOD representations of the breed and knowledgable handlers in these venues it continues to educate newer people or people oblivious to the true working bred border collie?

 

Am I gonna get eaten alive now?

[juliepoudrier]

ShyShepherdess,

No, you won't be eaten alive. I have never run in an AKC trial, but I have run in an AHBA trial, and frankly I didn't find it terribly challenging (HRD III). Add to that the fact that each run cost more than a typical USBCHA open run, and I really didn't have the desire to try it again or on any sort of regular basis. I remember helping at an AHBA trial held at a friend's place. When they started setting up the trial dog course (HTD) and were setting the entire course in *feet*, sorry, but I don't see the point. I understand where you're coming from, but at the same time, I don't think I could justify the time and expense to do something that I don't find challenging just so I can "spread the word." Not to mention that I am never going to put $$ in AKC's pocket. There must be other ways to get the word out. After all, as I mentioned earlier, I had a rescue person tell me about working dogs.

 

Brad,

I don't have an answer for you. I don't see Tommy Wilson, for example, ever having a website. But I'd get a pup from him in a heartbeat. I have a blog, but until I get to the point where I truly want to sell stuff (not pups, but fleeces, sheep, etc.), I don't see a need to have a formal website. When I bred the one litter I bred, word of mouth was enough to get people to come to me for pups.

 

I think that people of a certain age are more inclined to look to the web for *everything,* folks in between will sometimes use the web and sometimes not, and some of the old timers are simply never going to go technological. I understand that from your POV it would be nicer if all or most working breeders had some sort of website, but honestly there are plenty of resources out there for finding many of these folks, as evidenced by the links, etc., that have been posted here.

 

I've said this before, but many people in this country are so removed from our agragrian roots that even if farmers/ranchers got regular coverage on places like Animal Planet, I don't know how many average folks would tune in. Even when discussing what will take place at this coming National Finals, a number of people have noted that people's interest won't be held by the trialing dogs on the field alone. Unfortunately, it is a niche sport or way of life and that's not likely to change anytime soon.

 

So I say again that many of us will have to rely on discussions like this one and people like you who do sports and are *now* aware of working dogs, etc., to help spread the word.

 

J.

[shysheperdess]

Julie, I agree on the AHBA factor not being very challenging. I just fear that with less and less REAL handlers/trainers and working-bred dogs in these venues the less people will be educated. The less poeple will be pointed to working-bred litters, etc. Even though I don't personally agree with the AKC, there venues are more accesable to the general public and newbie dog people and I can't imgaine the day when there will be no true working-bred dogs for people to ooo and ahh about as they kick some butt. There already seems to be fewer and fewer....

 

It really is a dilema...

[red russel]

I'm a bit perplexed regarding the website question... All the below folks have websites. I'm sure there are a LOT more.

 

Norm Close

Patrick Shanahan

Bev Lambert

Don Helsley

Karen Child

Dianne Deal

Suzy Applegate

Candy Kennedy

Bob Stephens

Alasdair MacRae

Faansie Basson

Scot Glenn

Carol Campion

David & Christine Henry

Robin French

Amelia Smith

Jennifer Clark-Ewers

[Brad]

I understand that from your POV it would be nicer if all or most working breeders had some sort of website, but honestly there are plenty of resources out there for finding many of these folks, as evidenced by the links, etc., that have been posted here.

 

I was thinking more for the POV of people first plugging border collie puppies into Google. If the first page of hits came up with what we think people should read, I believe a lot of choices would be swayed.

While I agree that for me, now, there are a lot of resources, and I'm sure I could have another working bred dog within 3 months, it's because I've spent a lot of time here, or helping out at the local trials and getting to know the culture. I know what to put into Google to find what we should be finding, so for the experienced, it's easy. Which is maybe some of the reason there is a gap in understanding why it appears to be so tough for outsiders to the culture. For those that know, it's simple, for those that don't, they just don't.

Maybe this summer, time allowing, I'll build a website and hijack the Google front page with working info. Although someone much more knowledgeable will need to feed me the content

[Brad]

I'm a bit perplexed regarding the website question... All the below folks have websites. I'm sure there are a LOT more.

 

The problem is that when one is starting out on the Border Collie journey, these names are not known. And they don't come up anywhere near the front of boder collie + puppies in Google. If they did, with a smart little blurb boasting the reasons to get a "real" BC, then maybe there would be more demand for working lines. Given the choice of finding Norm Close + litter OR puppy or border collie + puppy AND fluffy, I'd want the former. But unless I know about working dogs, and working handlers/breeders, I won't even look for them. Yes, they're easy to find once you look, we just didn't know to look.

If all these people had sites that came up for the first two pages of Google by a generic border collie search, the border collie landscape would probably be different and better.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Sheepdoggers,

When I suggested "At the trial, he should talk to the novice/novice handlers. They are more likely to have unsold top quality pups."

 

My friend Denise said,

"Surely this is not what you actually meant to say?"

 

Meant it. While Denise and I can pretty much get what pups we want, the Newbie is going to have to look harder. I think there is both a very great difference between Open and Novice and not much difference at all. While pretty much anyone can compete in faux trials, a handler/dog team has to be well started to run novice/novice. Most novice/novices will have got their dogs from open handlers and most have terrific bloodlines. And novices, in their new enthusiasm are very,very likely to breed their dogs and have puppies and while Denise and I might not be interested, another novice might very well be.

 

Donald McCaig

[Denise Wall]

Most novice/novices will have got their dogs from open handlers and most have terrific bloodlines. And novices, in their new enthusiasm are very,very likely to breed their dogs and have puppies and while Denise and I might not be interested, another novice might very well be.

 

Donald McCaig

 

Isn't this thread about not encouraging the breeding of dogs untested to a high standard, "working lines" or not? Are you saying this is okay with you?

 

PS I haven't bought a pup since April of 1990 - 20 years. I work and run the dogs I breed myself so I can't speak as a puppy buyer but I can speak as an occasional breeder. I'm happy to sell pups to good non working homes under the right conditions.

[Ooky]

I've said this before, but many people in this country are so removed from our agragrian roots that even if farmers/ranchers got regular coverage on places like Animal Planet, I don't know how many average folks would tune in. Even when discussing what will take place at this coming National Finals, a number of people have noted that people's interest won't be held by the trialing dogs on the field alone. Unfortunately, it is a niche sport or way of life and that's not likely to change anytime soon.

 

Really??! Now you're just raining on my parade. I may well be delusional, I'm not excluding that as a distinct possibility. But it seems to me this is pretty exciting stuff. I mean, how much contact do most average people have with crab fishermen, fashion designers, living on a desert island, meerkats, etc in their daily lives? My in laws got me excited about trialling first because they had seen it at a fair, and every person I've talked to who has seen working dogs at a trial in a similar random circumstance are just as taken with the WOW and AMAZING factor, if they like dogs at all to begin with. Even my parents and friends were totally into watching videos of Odin, which are NOT that impressive. And it seems to me where I am that lots of non-ranchers/farmers are actively trying to find their agrarian roots again, by keeping large impressive gardens, chickens, and even sheep (without dogs - just for fresh raised organic meat!). Books/cookbooks by the likes of Alice Waters and Michael Pollan are not only widely read, but widely quoted or referenced. Many schools have programs devoted to teaching kids about growing and preparing one's own food. Farmer's markets and "order a weekly box from a farming co-op" programs seem to be gaining in popularity at an exponential rate.

 

But again, I hate what's usually on tv, and admit most people may not want what *I* want to watch anyway.

[juliepoudrier]

Most novice/novices will have got their dogs from open handlers and most have terrific bloodlines. And novices, in their new enthusiasm are very,very likely to breed their dogs and have puppies and while Denise and I might not be interested, another novice might very well be.

 

Donald McCaig

Donald,

It seems to me, from the vantage of setting sheep at trials and the like, that many novice-novice handlers are crossing over with their non-working-bred dogs, and I'd be willing to bet that few of those dogs will make it past P/N (east coast version). And I wouldn't want to encourage the breeding of the same, even though I've seen it happen. Unfortunately, as ShyShepherdess points out, many folks who go to AKC trials and the like and think they're seeing good working dogs when in fact they're seeing the lowest common denominator (most of the time; there are exceptions). I think there are enough non-big-hat open handlers that could supply nicely bred dogs without encouraging people to buy from novices. For example, the breeder I got my Twist from is certainly not a big hat, but she had trialed in open enough and has a farm and a medium-sized flock of sheep, so I would expect someone like her to be a better choice to buy a dog from. Heck, I would put myself in that category as well. The exception would be the novice handler with a well-bred dog and a great mentor (open handler or farmer/rancher who truly understands how to use the dogs) who suggested the cross (or perhaps who imported a dog already bred). You get the idea.

 

While there may be a few novices out there who have bred decent dogs, I think the average novice handler, even if s/he has a dog from great lines, doesn't know enough about the finer points of breeding or the work (trial or farm/ranch) to make the best decisions about what to breed and why. JMO.

 

J.

[juliepoudrier]

Ooky,

I and most of my friends would be happy to watch stockdog trials, and there sure seems to be plenty of attention from spectators at the trials I've attended that have been held in conjunction with *something else* (say, a fiber festival) that draws spectators, but face it, much of the stuff that attracts people on TV attracts them because of the train wreck or voyeuristic nature of the programming (like Supernanny or Wife Swap or Hoarders) or because it's extreme, like Survivor or the Amazing Race. As much as some of us might find stockdog trials "edge-of-the-seat" worthy, I really don't think JQ Public would in enough numbers to justify someone paying for the programming. I wish that weren't the case, but there it is.

 

A great run at a trial is smooth, calm, and looks easy. The average person will watch some of those, but if there's a bunch of good runs, well, they pretty much all look the same to the uninitiated and perhaps even to novice handlers. There's no real glitz, wrecks and grips are frowned upon, and so on.

 

Soldier Hollow, especially, and Meeker seem to draw good crowds, as does the Bluegrass. But in general, trials aren't a huge draw for the public. Probably part of the reason is that they are held on farms that aren't necessarily on the main route to anywhere, and the other part is that people don't know they exist and aren't really interested. Compare that to another event that has agrarian roots: the rodeo. There's excitement. The potential for someone to get hurt. Man against beast. Fast-paced. Something like that vs. something meant to showcase the calm, efficient movement of stock is a huge contrast.

 

J.

[glennkopp]

I think Ooky's idea of a reality show is a good one. It couldn't be just an hour of trial runs. It would have to follow a family or families that raise sheep or cattle and use Border Collies in their daily work. It would have to be an interesting and entertaining family with a good story. In an hour show, you might have 20 minutes of the dog(s) working on the farm, and 10 minutes of the dog(s) at a trial. Something like that.

Glenn

[Brad]

I think Ooky's idea of a reality show is a good one. It couldn't be just an hour of trial runs. It would have to follow a family or families that raise sheep or cattle and use Border Collies in their daily work. It would have to be an interesting and entertaining family with a good story.

 

Think "Finding Nemo". Every kid in the country got a pet clownfish, that subsequently went down a drain. All those fluffy dogs just like on TV are a lot tougher to flush....just sayin'...

[glennkopp]

Think "Finding Nemo". Every kid in the country got a pet clownfish, that subsequently went down a drain. All those fluffy dogs just like on TV are a lot tougher to flush....just sayin'...

 

Good point. The farmer/trialer would have to be someone who is an Open trialer and responsible breeder who would be educating the public as part of the show.

[geonni banner]

Is there a big difference between the American TV viewing audience and the British TV viewing audience? I ask because I've gotten the impression (second hand) that you can't swing a dead cat on the BBC without hitting a sheepdog trial.

 

Animal Planet was a good channel when it started out - but now it's all "reality programming" and utter fluff. Again, my info is second hand - I don't watch TV. (But I have a serious DVD habit...) It seems like maybe the National Geographic channel (if you could pry them away from Caesar Milan for a moment,) or the Discovery channel might be good. I think a big part of the problem with televising sheepdog trials in this country would be the lack of commentators who are knowledgeable enough about what's going on to make the nuances of the work understandable and interesting to the average viewer.

 

Actually, the concept of the "smartest dog in the world" should be a draw for at least a one hour special. Especially following the success of that BBC program that exposed the "shame of the breed-ring." There could be a history segment, a present day stock dog segment, a why Border Collies excel at so many things, leading into a why this breed in danger segment. Hmmm.....

[juliepoudrier]

Is there a big difference between the American TV viewing audience and the British TV viewing audience? I ask because I've gotten the impression (second hand) that you can't swing a dead cat on the BBC without hitting a sheepdog trial.

Sure. In the UK sheep farming is still very much a way of life, and so most people are familiar with sheep and the dogs that work them. When I drove through Wales and part of England and Scotland a few years ago, sheep were *everywhere.* Consider too that the country is much smaller than the US. While there are plenty of sheep in this country, they are much more geographically spread out and the average person just doesn't see them very often.

 

Please don't forget that TV shows cost a lot of money to produce. Reality shows are much cheaper to produce than dramas, sitcoms, and the like, and since the American public eats them up, the TV powers that be are producing ever more such shows.

 

Someone would have to be able to sell the idea of a stockdog/working ranch show to TV producers. That's not as easy as it might seem. In the UK, where many people are still tied to the sheep raising life, there's simply more interest.

 

J.

[Sue R]

Dear Sheepdoggers,

When I suggested "At the trial, he should talk to the novice/novice handlers. They are more likely to have unsold top quality pups."

 

My friend Denise said,

"Surely this is not what you actually meant to say?"

 

Meant it. While Denise and I can pretty much get what pups we want, the Newbie is going to have to look harder. I think there is both a very great difference between Open and Novice and not much difference at all. While pretty much anyone can compete in faux trials, a handler/dog team has to be well started to run novice/novice. Most novice/novices will have got their dogs from open handlers and most have terrific bloodlines. And novices, in their new enthusiasm are very,very likely to breed their dogs and have puppies and while Denise and I might not be interested, another novice might very well be.

 

Donald McCaig

Sorry, Donald, as much as I admire you, you really disappointed me with this one. Too many times, novices with well-bred or not-well-bred dogs/bitches breed them. They haven't proven their dogs and they don't have the knowledge to make good breeding decisions either. Thinking of a barely-started dog I saw once, the owner's comment was that they hadn't meant to breed her on the first heat but they weren't paying close attention. And then were looking for advice for the next time when they intended to breed her. Whatever for??? Geesh.

 

Now, there are novices with dogs from good backgrounds who, with a mentor that recognized what the dog truly had to offer and could suggest a very suitable breeding partner, might produce some nice pups - but what is the point of a novice breeding in the first place? I just don't see it.

 

After all the mistakes I've made, I'd suggest to anyone that they put in their time - research (not just picking what comes up first on Google); volunteering at trials; making connections at trials or clinics; and putting in some mileage learning and making contacts - then searching for a pup via those contacts. I sure wish I'd know then what I know now...

[Eileen Stein]

I have to agree that the last thing I'd like to see come out of this thread is the encouragement of novice/novice handlers to breed their unproven dogs, which is what pumping up demand for pups from novice/novice handlers would do.

[Heather]

Just a tiny comment.... I wish everyone could see a fantastic trial, like Soldier Hollow, and hear a Ray-Crabtree-class announcer giving commentary on what the dogs are doing, how they are bred solely to do their work and not to look pretty, why that's so marvelous, why this philosophy of breeding leads to such wonderful dogs who will excel in every other venue. It could be the best reality show ever! I've never been able to explain it with words and arm-waving, but seeing is believing, and all the comments that us folks in the peanut gallery hear prove it.

 

I have two quick facts and one opinion to add to this thread:

 

Fact #1: The complete semi-finals and the double lift finals of the 2010 National Finals will for the first time be offered as a streaming video web cast over the Internet. Ray Crabtree will be our announcer (both for the web cast and for the live event in Virginia) for these two days. So if all goes well, we'll be able to educate a lot of people on the working border collie this year.

 

Fact #2: Littlehats maintains a pretty decent list of working breeders that can serve as a resource for working pups.

 

Opinion: As several other people have also expressed, I consider advising anyone to get pups from novice/novice handlers to be shockingly poor advice. Working bred litters are out there, for both sport dog folks and novice sheepdog handlers. Finding them might require a little work and research, but the resources are there if you spend the time and effort to look for them.

[ShoresDog]

Great news! I will sure plan to shop that link around to all my dog friends.

 

ETA: I mean my people friends who like dogs!

[Conner22]

Um, while you may not *think* a sheep dog trial is "interesting" enough- are you aware they show BREED ring on tv- I mean REALLY- we are all watching dogs walk around, and look pretty, and look at different breeds, FOR 3 HOURS!

And they show Agility nationals on tv sometimes too! You watch about 50-70 dogs run THE EXACT SAME COURSE. By all rights, these are EXTEMELY boring to the average public, but are well watched programs.

Do you know HOW AKC agility got tv time? because on their website they ASKED THEIR members to VOTE on what to watch for whatever channel it was on. (there were 3 options). This board HAS 10,000 members- betcha they could sway a vote to watch a herding show on some channel.

I'm sure 10 years ago if someone said watching ballroom dancing was going to be exciting, producers would have laughed.... NOW?????

[Conner22]

Shaneen, the reason it was suggested that you may not appear to be willing to do the legwork required to find a working-bred pup is that you've severely limited the distance you're willing to travel to find contacts. Perhaps having agility trials taking place 15 miles away from your house has led you to believe that any kind of dog event should be very close to home or that it is an anomaly that stockdog trials take place further away from you, but that is a pretty typical distance to travel to sheepdog trials in many areas of the country (including mine). It is, of course, much easier to surf the Internet from your couch than it is to get in your car and drive four or five hours and then possibly stay in a motel overnight while attending a trial, but in the grand scheme, if you're searching for a pup who will be your partner for the next fifteen or so years, it is really not that big a deal. You will get to meet several local handlers, make contacts, actually see the dogs you hope to get progeny of, and gain a better understanding of what working border collies actually do that is so unique (and, incidentally, what the working border collie folks are talking so passionately about when discussions about the need to preserve working ability in the breed come up).

 

Um, you may not mean this to sound offensive but it DOES sound offensive. AGAIN, I can't travel due to WORK, not due to laziness. As for "surfing the web sitting on my butt" i'm sure for some of you its an anomoly for finding information, but for a majority of us- we are taught in school/college to USE IT TO FIND information, with emphasis on using it for valid and accurate information. We weren't raised on the library system, we are aware of libraries- but our research is journals (online), valid websites (online), and massive libraries/volumes (online). This isn't just our slack a*s lazy selves looking for instant gratification, but honest research done AS WE WERE TAUGHT!

Either understand what is being said - as its being repeated several times, that YOUR VERSION OF THE BORDER COLLIE IS RELATIVELY UNKNOWN TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC. Either you can resent the high profile of the sport home, and argue about how *we* should find information, or you can realize something needs to change (getting the info out there) to better the breed. Explaining that all your pups are sold word of mouth IS NOT PROMOTING the working breed at all. if anything, it explains why NO ONE OUTSIDE YOUR CIRCLE HAS HEARD OF YOU.

 

EDIT: hmm I sound a little abrupt.... I mean this in a good way- I really really want to see the working breed BE the future of the breed, instead of overlooked and forgotten by everyone BUT a working home.

[DeltaBluez Tess]

OK, I am a working breeder. I run in Open sheep and Cattledog trials. I have a litter about every two - three years and I tell people that. I try to point them to other working breeders if they seem to be a right fit.

 

The next litter that I will breed this fall will be Nan x Bobby Dalziel's Joe and I have a waiting list of over ten people. This breeding was via word of mouth. The last litter was Tess's and that was over 2 1/2 yrs ago. I bred to replace my dogs. Most of my pups go to trial or working home but some go to agility homes. Why agility homes...some of the people will do right by the dog as well give them a great home plus a s/n contract (as well they are friends and also herd with their dogs).

 

There are other working breeders on this board that have very nice dogs. Some folks on the boards have dogs from me. We have gotten to be friends via this board and expanded our horizons.

 

 

Speaking of culls...my top Open dog (retired) Tess was a cull puppy. The crazy BYB was just that!!

 

I have a website and a blog....I get a lot of requests for breeding to my red male more than anything else. For his COLOR!! The answer is NO.

 

I bred for working ability. Period.