sometimes I feel like giving up...

[Journey]

And that makes me feel that, with regards to certain people, it might just save a whole lot of energy to just give up - and go do something productive with my time.

 

Which is where this thread began. I've read all the pages, nothing new to ad per se. I still don't get it why people think they have a hard time finding a well bred border collie. I will give that since the ACK involvement, there are many breeders that won't sell to ACK sport homes (or claim that at least). I know a couple of people, they register with AKC for agility but they can't get "why" some working breeders refuse to sell to them. I see some sort of "entitlement" here but until the pup leaves the nest, they belong to whomever and that person can place them wherever they "want". I may have missed it (too many pages to recall) another source for contacts (good or bad) would be to subscribe to one of the working stockdog magazines.

 

If it wasn’t fairly difficult for a newbie to get a “good working pup” those who thought it was easier might have refuted me by saying, “I have a nice litter from Spot and Jill, both open trial winners, available in July.”

 

It was very quiet out there.

 

I am somewhat confused by the above comments. I thought it was quiet as advertising litters wasn't allowed here? Well in most cases that is. And, last time "names" were brought up the thread had some fairy dust sprinkled on it and it disappeared Am I mis-reading the comments somehow?

[juliepoudrier]

If it wasn't fairly difficult for a newbie to get a “good working pup” those who thought it was easier might have refuted me by saying, “I have a nice litter from Spot and Jill, both open trial winners, available in July.”

 

It was very quiet out there.

 

I am somewhat confused by the above comments. I thought it was quiet as advertising litters wasn't allowed here? Well in most cases that is. And, last time "names" were brought up the thread had some fairy dust sprinkled on it and it disappeared Am I mis-reading the comments somehow?

 

A good part of this discussion has been the fact that without a bigger demand for pups, breeders of good working dogs are breeding mainly when they need a replacement; that is, not very often. I've bred one litter, and that was just about four years ago. I whelped out another litter for someone 9 months ago and got a pup from that. I won't need another pup for another three or four years, if then. So there's no need for me to breed anything right now (and I probably wouldn't breed anyway but instead find a pup from someone else). I'd guess my situation is fairly typical.

 

So while the person who posted the original quote is implying that none of us here is willing to offer up a pup from an upcoming working-bred litter, I think the reality is that there aren't many upcoming litters. Of the open handlers I know well who have responded to this thread I don't know of any who have upcoming litters. But of course it's easier to believe that we're just being jerks and refusing to offer pups from all those litters we're keeping secret from sports people.

 

And I know I've said this till I'm blue in the face, but I'll try again: If you go to sheepdog trials you'll meet a bunch of folks in one place. You'll see a bunch of different dogs. You can probably talk to folks who own dogs you like. And those people can probably tell you of upcoming litters they know about, even if they don't have one themselves (they can certainly point you in the direction of the person who produced their dog, if it wasn't a breeding they did themselves). That's how I'd go about looking for a new pup--I hear the owner of a dog I particularly like is thinking of breeding or has already done so and I contact that person to ask about getting on a list. If their list is full, I ask if they know of anyone else who has similarly bred dogs. And so on. I don't get online and look for websites, I go out and talk to actual people.

 

This goes right back to whoever complained about getting only one name, although lots of names have been thrown out there now. It's not always any easier for "insiders" to know who's breeding whom and when--we have to ask just like anybody else would. I guess the difference is I know a few different people I *could* ask. But now anyone who has read this thread does too.

 

On a slight tangent, and this was discussed in a different thread some time ago, but many buyers are resistant to spay/neuter contracts. And that goes for folks buying working dogs to work them as well as folks who want them for pets or sports. I can understand a working breeder being leery of selling to say, an AKC agility enthusiast, when as Brad noted there's lots of peer pressure for people to breed their dogs just because they're good at a particular sport or are good pets and pretty. While I would be willing to sell to a good pet or sport home, I'd really rather that those owners didn't then turn around and breed the dog I sold, but most buyers don't want to give up the right to breed. Just another little monkey wrench in the works....

 

J.

[stockdogranch]

Julie's right--lots of folks who breed good working dogs will make sure the pups they sell to not just sport homes, but perhaps to novice handlers as well (for reasons stated in earlier posts), will do so only on S/N contracts, or with a non-breeding understanding. Further, there are some of us who might be willing to sell to sport and/or pet homes, but will not do so if the pup is to be ACK registered. I simply do not want my pups to be "dual registered"; as an (occasional) breeder who has very strong feelings about the ACK and its involvement/influence on the border collie, I feel it's within my rights to do so,

A

[geonni banner]

When one first logs onto the BC Boards there is a thing at the top of the General Border Collie Discussion section that says, "Read this first." In it, a general breeding philosophy for Border Collies is outlined. There is also a statement welcoming people who do various sports with their dogs.

 

Heck, there's a whole section of the Boards devoted to obedience, agility & flyball. I fail to see how this is unwelcoming or hostile to people who do sports with their Border Collies. As has been said many times by many people - and will doubtless be said as many times more - it's not the activities that are frowned upon, it's breeding Border Collies for anything but stockwork.

 

If you (the rhetorical you) want to get involved with a BBS that very clearly states its philosophy, why on earth should you (again, the rhetorical you) get stroppy when someone here objects to you saying said philosophy is hooey?

 

The part of Texas wherein I spent many of my formative years was generally peopled by friendly folk, and justly famous for a number of sayings. One of them was employed when someone came into a place (a home, a gathering, a bar, just about anyplace) and proceeded to make themselves disagreeable for no good reason. The saying was preceded with a smile. It was, "Here's yer hat, what's yer hurry?"

[SS Cressa]

So I am curious since i haven't been in the breed for that long, maybe 5 years.

 

Was there a large demand for quality working border collie before sports? or when sports 1st started? or when AKC started to allow border collies? Has there been a decrease in the number of border collies sold to pets/sports home from working homes? Are quality working breeders breeding less since sports breeding came into the picture?

 

I am not talking about farms dogs or byb border collies or novice working dogs but from the top end border collie breeding. I assume the people who trial alot should know.

[abcollie]

So I am curious since i haven't been in the breed for that long, maybe 5 years.

 

Was there a large demand for quality working border collie before sports? or when sports 1st started? or when AKC started to allow border collies? Has there been a decrease in the number of border collies sold to pets/sports home from working homes? Are quality working breeders breeding less since sports breeding came into the picture?

 

I use to talk at least 5 people a week OUT of a Border Collie and NOT because they were going to "do something" else with them. I did it because a BC would have never "fit" them. I want the people AND dogs to be happy and suit each other.

 

I use to breed once/twice a year ... maybe less now.

 

However, I know some "sport breeders" that have 6 - 7 - 8 litters on the ground (at the same time). Some breed 10+ litters a year ... do you think they are going to "talk people out of Border Collies" with that many pups to sell.

 

So, if the Working Breeders have a litter a year ... the Sports breeders have 10 litters a year ... What "type" of dog is multiplying faster? That's what Denise was saying earlier.

 

I wanted to add ... while the sports people can come to the working dogs and get replacements ... it doesn't work the other way around.

[Brad]

So, if the Working Breeders have a litter a year ... the Sports breeders have 10 litters a year ... What "type" of dog is multiplying faster? That's what Denise was saying earlier.

 

This to me is where the working dog falls down. Demand for puppies is 11 litters a year, with working dogs only filling one of those orders. Unless the working dog takes back a market share of the demand, it's only going to get worse. But, the problem is that the working breeder is doing it as a lifestyle (or for whatever practical reason) and the sport breeder is doing it as a profit based business. And in this business, they've got their marketing covered, advertising on websites, etc.

Now if the working breeder started advertising, putting out more litters with the purpose of getting working dogs into the market share, even to sell them at cost, that would compete directly and advantageously against the sport breeder selling dogs for profit. If they had to sell at cost to keep sport dogs in demand, they would probably find other things to do.

Now sure, the motivation to do this is likely not there, and would require a movement amongst breeders to actively put dogs into the market for the sole purpose of over-running the sport models. If I do my research and easily (this means by not leaving my couch) that I can buy a ferrari for less money than a honda, you know which one I'm taking.

Yes, I know this isn't going to happen, but with the demand for the other 10 litters coming from sport breeders, they are going to flood the market, and the new owners are going to breed fluffy because she's pretty. In my world of agility and flyball, I probably know 35 border collies, and almost all of their owners just brush me off if I talk about keeping the breed pure.

[SS Cressa]

I use to talk at least 5 people a week OUT of a Border Collie and NOT because they were going to "do something" else with them. I did it because a BC would have never "fit" them. I want the people AND dogs to be happy and suit each other.

 

I use to breed once/twice a year ... maybe less now.

 

However, I know some "sport breeders" that have 6 - 7 - 8 litters on the ground (at the same time). Some breed 10+ litters a year ... do you think they are going to "talk people out of Border Collies" with that many pups to sell.

 

So, if the Working Breeders have a litter a year ... the Sports breeders have 10 litters a year ... What "type" of dog is multiplying faster? That's what Denise was saying earlier.

 

I wanted to add ... while the sports people can come to the working dogs and get replacements ... it doesn't work the other way around.

 

I ask about working border collie breeding habits before sports and get well sports people are breeding a lot???

 

I thought the posts were saying everyone needs to buy from top end working dogs. And how the breeder were having to cut back due to not enough homes thus (possible) hurting the furture generation of border collies. Thus my question about breeding habits before sports or before the "sports craze".

 

Was there a large demand for quality working border collie before sports? or when sports 1st started? or when AKC started to allow border collies? Has there been a decrease in the number of border collies sold to pets/sports home from working homes? Are quality working breeders breeding less since sports breeding came into the picture?

 

I am not talking about farms dogs or byb border collies or novice working dogs but from the top end border collie breeding. I assume the people who trial alot should know.

[abcollie]

I ask about working border collie breeding habits before sports and get well sports people are breeding a lot???

 

I thought the posts were saying everyone needs to buy from top end working dogs. And how the breeder were having to cut back due to not enough homes thus (possible) hurting the furture generation of border collies. Thus my question about breeding habits before sports or before the "sports craze".

 

 

That WAS the answer ... I don't get emails asking for Border Collies now ... they are ALL over the place "a dime a dozen" (looked at rescue lately ... before there were "sport Border Collies" there were very few in rescue). The working people didn't/don't breed for quantity.

 

It's not that difficult to understand so why DON'T you want to HEAR it?

[Blackdawgs]

One possible way out of this, is to start actively marketing your working dogs to sports people and try your best to find people, who are interested in competing in sport AND in USBCHA herding. Act as mentors to those individuals and form partnerships. The offspring of those dogs could be very appealing with the added benefit of maintaining the gene pool of working bloodlines.

[Ooky]

Blackdawgs, are you talking about "versatility" breeding?

 

From what I've always understood from these boards, it is unlikely the same dog will be trained to compete at a very high level in both sport and USBCHA trialling, due to the massive time and money investment required in each, but having done neither I may be mistaken.

[Smokjbc]

One possible way out of this, is to start actively marketing your working dogs to sports people and try your best to find people, who are interested in competing in sport AND in USBCHA herding. Act as mentors to those individuals and form partnerships. The offspring of those dogs could be very appealing with the added benefit of maintaining the gene pool of working bloodlines.

 

 

It's not impossible but very few can succeed in USBCHA trials and "sports". The time needed to train and trial an Open dog does not allow for any other diversions. We do not "need" the agility folks. But agility folks should have the integrity to recognize that working lines are what have made the breed what it is. IF you (general sports-you) want to continue to have access to the working lines, then it's YOU that needs to make the effort. The working folks are busy keeping the breed as it should be.

[SS Cressa]

One possible way out of this, is to start actively marketing your working dogs to sports people and try your best to find people, who are interested in competing in sport AND in USBCHA herding. Act as mentors to those individuals and form partnerships. The offspring of those dogs could be very appealing with the added benefit of maintaining the gene pool of working bloodlines.

 

I've asked before and was told it doesn't happen. You can only get to one or the other. Am curious as to the well bred working dog doing agility tho.

 

Who are they? What venue do they compete in? How are they doing? Any agility videos? feel free to PM me if you don't want to go off topic.

 

Also thought I should point out: I am not advocating the breeding of non working or unproven dogs. I just disagree with what is consider working as seeming-ly define by this board.

[daisyandme]

I've asked before and was told it doesn't happen. You can only get to one or the other. Am curious as to the well bred working dog doing agility tho.

 

Who are they? What venue do they compete in? How are they doing? Any agility videos? feel free to PM me if you don't want to go off topic.

 

Also thought I should point out: I am not advocating the breeding of non working or unproven dogs. I just disagree with what is consider working as seeming-ly define by this board.

 

What is your definition of working?

[Maralynn]

Also thought I should point out: I am not advocating the breeding of non working or unproven dogs. I just disagree with what is consider working as seeming-ly define by this board.

 

In that case you're most likely talking about breeding unproven dogs (as defined by the board)

 

 

One possible way out of this, is to start actively marketing your working dogs to sports people and try your best to find people, who are interested in competing in sport AND in USBCHA herding.

 

Once a person has found a their niche in the competitive dog world they usually stay with that and train. It is difficult enough to train to a high level in one endeavor, let alone two. People who divide their time between two serious endeavors are usually mediocre at best in both. And that doesn't even deal with the time or money aspect that each would require.

[juliepoudrier]

I just disagree with what is consider working as seeming-ly define by this board.

And would this be because your dogs fit your definition of working, but not that of the majority of working-dog folks on this forum?

 

J.

[SS Cressa]

What is your definition of working?

 

I call a dog working if its purpose/job is to help move livestock.

[Ooky]

I call a dog working if its purpose/job is to help move livestock.

 

You seem like a very accomplished agility trainer, with a very talented dog. Maybe the best way to explain what people have been trying to say in this thread is to ask you, would you consider a dog an "agility dog" if it had taken a few classes? If it competed at a mediocre or worse level in the very lowest trials? If it couldn't even do a contact or all the obstacles with any reliability? Because a dog could "help move livestock" and be very similar on the equivalent range of working ability/training.

 

Can you see where someone's dog who couldn't even do all the obstacles yet, much less contacts, if that person said their dog was a talented agility dog and good breeding stock for that purpose, you'd be skeptical at best? And in stockwork, the level of mastery any dog can achieve depends MUCH more on it's genetics and less on its training than in agility.

[SS Cressa]

And would this be because your dogs fit your definition of working, but not that of the majority of working-dog folks on this forum?

 

J.

 

No I have just always consider/heard the border collie purpose was to help with the livestock making it easier for their human counterpart to do whatever it is they need to do. Wether on a farm, out in the pastures, on the hills, at a trial, or wherever their help was needed.

[SS Cressa]

Maybe the best way to explain what people have been trying to say in this thread is to ask you, would you consider a dog an "agility dog" if it had taken a few classes? If it competed at a mediocre or worse level in the very lowest trials? If it couldn't even do a contact or all the obstacles with any reliability? Because a dog could "help move livestock" and be very similar on the equivalent range of working ability/training.

 

Can you see where someone's dog who couldn't even do all the obstacles yet, much less contacts, if that person said their dog was a talented agility dog and good breeding stock for that purpose, you'd be skeptical at best?

 

That is why I am interested in how the nice working bred pups are doing in agility. It easy to claim and most people do claim to have agility dogs when what they really mean is their dogs knows some obstacles.

[Mark Billadeau]

This to me is where the working dog falls down. Demand for puppies is 11 litters a year, with working dogs only filling one of those orders. Unless the working dog takes back a market share of the demand, it's only going to get worse. But, the problem is that the working breeder is doing it as a lifestyle (or for whatever practical reason) and the sport breeder is doing it as a profit based business. And in this business, they've got their marketing covered, advertising on websites, etc.

Now if the working breeder started advertising, putting out more litters with the purpose of getting working dogs into the market share, even to sell them at cost, that would compete directly and advantageously against the sport breeder selling dogs for profit. If they had to sell at cost to keep sport dogs in demand, they would probably find other things to do.

So what you're saying is working breeders should not be breeding for function but for profit or market share.

[Blackdawgs]

It easy to claim and most people do claim to have agility dogs when what they really mean is their dogs knows some obstacles.

 

LOL--this is getting interesting....to the agility people: how many titles and in what venues are needed before a dog can be considered an agility dog?

 

To the stock dog people: What percent of open handlers in the US and Canada actually earn their living from ranching cattle and/or sheep? (The answer to this question will influence my response to the "working" question.)

[Mark Billadeau]

Isn't the real question what is needed to demonstrate a high level of proficiency in both pursuits for a dog to be considered an agility dog or a stock dog?

 

The problem with these questions is that the bar is set, mentally, by each person based upon their personal experiences.

 

A world team member will set the bar higher than a local or regional competitor.

A handler that finishes in the top 10 of the finals will set the bar higher than a local/regional handler.

A rancher with hundreds of head of stock will set the bar higher than someone who has 10s of head of stock a a few fenced acres.

[Smalahundur]

So what you're saying is working breeders should not be breeding for function but for profit or market share.

 

I don´t think that´s what she means. I think she means while demanding to be the only ones to have the right to breed The One and Only True Border Collie, they don´t seem to have the capacity to meet demands for that praticular breed of dog.

[abcollie]

I don´t think that´s what she means. I think she means while demanding to be the only ones to have the right to breed The One and Only True Border Collie, they don´t seem to have the capacity to meet demands for that praticular breed of dog.

 

If you can't see the difference between breeding for a dog that can spend a couple of hours sorting lambs, holding them while they are darting around trying to get back to their mothers --- and a dog that can do a weave pole (or whatever) the fastest ... then it's a waste of time trying to explain "the why" to you.