sometimes I feel like giving up...

[geonni banner]

Just a point of clarification before things get even more muddled: Candy, I believe Geonni's post was in response to Blackdawgs' post and not yours.

 

I think Candy's questions are actually directed at Blackdawgs, who made the Ferrari-Honda comparison.

 

It seems that you are both disagreeing with Blackdawgs' comments but somehow are now responding to each other?

 

J.

 

ACK! Who's on first?? Thanks for being the voice of sanity, Julie!

[Blackdawgs]

Because you're helping turn the whole breed into Hondas. For every Honda you settle for, a Ferrari will not be bred.

 

There is a big difference between a Honda (a steady, reliable, useful, long-lived car) and an old clunker that was assembled in a local chop-shop

 

If a good working border collie is a Ferrari, and you don't want or need a Ferrari, as Candy said, why get a border collie at all?

 

I see. Our definations of Ferrari are different. By Ferrari, I mean top, world class bloodlines. I don't need a super dog, just a good one.

 

 

As I said, educate yourself and find the best working breeder you can find if you want to support the breed. I'm not saying you need to import a dog or spend huge money shipping a dog, just make a reasonable effort that will support the breeding of good working dogs.

 

Of course. I'm not going to buy a dog from any old breeder. Many of the locals get their dogs from one person who advertises "working" bloodlines, but these are AKC registered dogs. I find these dogs to be underwhelming...too slow...too clunky...too little drive...dull.

 

If ANY dog could do agility, I'd use my rescue Border Collie from the county shelter. Unfortunately, she isn't useful for agility or stockwork (or so I've been told by one person). I'm now living with the conseqeunces of someone's bad breeding (and/ or up-bringing) and I'm not going down that road again.

[abcollie]

.

 

If ANY dog could do agility, I'd use my rescue Border Collie from the county shelter. Unfortunately, she isn't useful for agility or stockwork (or so I've been told by one person). I'm now living with the conseqeunces of someone's bad breeding (and/ or up-bringing) and I'm not going down that road again.

 

If ANY dog could do agility, I'd use my rescue Border Collie from the county shelter. Unfortunately, she isn't useful for agility or stockwork (or so I've been told by one person). I'm now living with the conseqeunces of someone's bad breeding (and/ or up-bringing) and I'm not going down that road again.

 

You think you're not going down the same road? That's exactly where you are heading. If you aren't looking for someone that is breeding the BEST that these dogs have to offer ... then your looking for another so-so bred dog.

 

A Border Collie IS a Border Collie because of working ability. Agility people didn't start this breed ... back yard breeders didn't start this breed. Working farmers that HAD to have a dog when the "chips were down" started it. That's what makes them special ... that's WHY the agility people wanted them.

 

Once you STOP breeding for what makes them a GREAT working dog ... you stop breeding Border Collies. So, again my question ... Why a Border Collie? Because, it sounds like what you are looking for isn't a Border Collie ... It's a couple of dogs that are being bred together.

[Maralynn]

FWIW, I took what Blackdawgs was saying to mean that she wanted a well bred Border Collie, but didn't see a reason to pursue getting one from a Big Hat.

[Blackdawgs]

FWIW, I took what Blackdawgs was saying to mean that she wanted a well bred Border Collie, but didn't see a reason to pursue getting one from a Big Hat.

 

Thank you and amen.

[Sue R]

I don't believe anyone here has advocated only buying from a Big Hat (and this has been said before in this thread). There are many good dogs and potential good breedings that are in the hands of competent, capable, non-Big-Hat handlers - whether they are trialists, farmers, or ranchers. It's just a matter of doing your homework and finding them.

 

That is where going to trials, volunteering, making contacts, sifting through options, and going to see the actual dogs, and so forth is so important.

 

A person doesn't have to be a Big Hat to produce some fine pups - they just need to have proven their dogs, made a good breeding match, and be truly interested in producing quality working-bred pups. And that kind of person is likely not someone you would ever find on the internet but only by word-of-mouth.

 

Just remember if you are using the internet as a source, avoid any website that is all about "We have puppies!"...

[abcollie]

I am in the market for a pup and I am going to the agility trials/ practices and talking to people.

 

I want a well-structured, healthy, biddable, athletic, intelligent dog that I can live it. I don't have the time, energy, or aspirations for the world agility team--I don't need a dog from top herding bloodlines any more than I need a dog from top agility bloodline,

so I don't feel the need to spend the money and expend the effort to ship a dog here from Mr Big Hat or Ms Agility Goddess when a dog from a local farmer or novice trialer may suit me just fine. Let someone with bigger aspirations have one of those dogs. And frankly, why buy a Ferrari when a Honda will do?

 

Those "types" of comments still make me say WHY get a Border Collie.

 

You sound like it doesn't matter if the "bloodlines" are agility or herding ... you just want a well-structured, healthy,biddable, athletic, intelligent dog ... so find one of those in another breed IF it REALLY doesn't matter. The reason you want a Border Collie is because those abilities are what you get WHEN you breed for WORKING ability.

 

As Sue said ... I don't think anyone said you have to go to a "big hat" to buy a pup ... but I sure don't think a Agility "trial" (not sure why they call those trials?) or a Novice handler (that hasn't trained their dog far enough up to know all his/her faults ... could choose a suitable mate that would compensate for them) is the place to look.

[jdarling]

Well, if they show promise I’d expect Tommy to keep some of them. If he lets any go, they will go to Top 17 Handlers. Presuming good results, their pups will go to top open handlers. Then the grandpups will spread among the lesser open handlers and some might go to favored ranchers (disclaimer to come). Some of the great grandpups might get into the general sheepdog community and both grandpups and great grandpups might sire pups in the general sheepdog community. The pups matings will likely be best to best matings only.

 

So. As a novice (which is how this thread started) when and how do you get some of Roy’s genetics?

 

How? Hang around with top handlers. Help them at their trial, scribe, do their paperwork, train with them, impress them with the speed you learn and, maybe five years from now, you could buy a grandpup.

 

Another method that works is cash. If you hand a big hat some money, they will usually put you on a waiting list for their next litter if they don't have a puppy to hand you.

[Blackdawgs]

Those "types" of comments still make me say WHY get a Border Collie.

 

Really, I don't need to justify my choice to you or anyone else.

 

 

You sound like it doesn't matter if the "bloodlines" are agility or herding ... you just want a well-structured, healthy,biddable, athletic, intelligent dog ... so find one of those in another breed IF it REALLY doesn't matter.

 

Methinks that the fundamental problem is that there are individuals who believe that BCs shouldn't be used for anything but stock work.

 

 

The reason you want a Border Collie is because those abilities are what you get WHEN you breed for WORKING ability.

 

Oh for godsakes, I never said that that I was going to buy a dog that was not bred for working agility. I did say that given my goals, preferences, and lifestyle, which are deeper than "any" and "sort of" (your words, not mine), I don't need a dog from a big shot stock dog handler when a well-bred, useful dog from a local farmer/ rancher may suit me just fine.

 

As Sue said ... I don't think anyone said you have to go to a "big hat" to buy a pup ... but I sure don't think a Agility "trial" (not sure why they call those trials?) or a Novice handler (that hasn't trained their dog far enough up to know all his/her faults ... could choose a suitable mate that would compensate for them) is the place to look.

 

If I want the dog for agility, why wouldn't I ask people at agility trials about the origin of their dogs? If for no other reason than to know where NOT to get a dog from.

 

And, yes, we call agility competitions, "trials". Sorry if the terminology offends you, but I guess that is really too bad.

[Maralynn]

but I sure don't think a Agility "trial" (not sure why they call those trials?)

 

Just about any dog performance event is called a trial - you're proving the dogs skill at one thing or another.

[Brad]

So as I ponder everything I read, I think I;ve come up with the source of the Border Collie's demise. Greed and lethargy. When I was looking for my first pup, I wanted a BC. They're cool dogs, really smart and I can train them to get me a beer and a sandwich. I've made up my mind, I want a BC. Ya, I'd like to get involved in some dog sports, agility, flyball herding (yes, around here "herding" is mostly another sport). My GF at the time suggested looking for working quality (whatever that meant) and we could look online.

Now as a traditional puppy purchaser, I want to go look at litters and play with puppies, because they're cute, and that's how most people get dogs. I don't want a dog sight unseen, I want it from down the street, and damn it, I want it this weekend. C'mon, let's look in the local paper/online ads. Hmm, there are a few litters, but the GF wins and we look around online.

We did happen to come across Diane Pagel, and I did arrange a pup, but things didn't work out. So I kept searching. I found Rig on the east coast, and after talking to the "breeder", I found a wonderful working dog. What that actually turned out to mean was the pups were born on a farm that had a cow, and the neighbour down the street had a few sheep. The fact that the dam or sire never actually interacted with any of these farm animals wasn't brought up

So looking at the lines, Rig comes from a long list of champions, from the likes of Amanda M and Allister M. Wow, says me, I got me a working dog.

Rig is training on sheep, but probably not ever going to be great. He is an incredible agility dog, easily running through Masters courses (we haven't actually gotten out of the training field tho). Flyball has him running 4 seconds in the pack. He does hand stands. He's my heart dog and I'm glad I found him. I got lucky with him as he fits perfectly into what I wanted in a BC.

My next pup, Cricket, I happened across after learning a bit more about the breed, and stock work. I volunteer at all the local trials and got to know a lot of the local and not so local handlers. I found this board. So last fall I was in the right place at the right time, after someone backed out of a pup. She's from pretty good lines, bred by a local handler and her dam with Peter Gonnet's Taff. Now this is a working dog (on paper). She's 7 months old and last week when she was out at the farm, she would rather play with the other BCs than even look at sheep. Maybe she'll click next week...

Now here is the part where it goes all wrong.

Let's say I decide that Rig, my wonder dog, and Cricket, my working bred pup who will be a great universal champion one day, would make cute puppies. And I'm greedy, or hard up for cash, or hey, I just want to go to Costa Rica for a few weeks. I'm going to breed my great dogs and make some bucks. I've chosen the path of the BYB. I'm gonna make me some money! Awesome. (<--theoretical)

Now the newest prospective puppy purchasers in town all want BC pups. They even found some articles online that describe why you should get a working dog. As a BC BYB, I know what people might want and need to hear, so my add has all the stuff that the sport ads list. Working lines/International champions in line/great agility star/fast flyball dogs, and look, Rig can even do a handstand. People are wow'ed. Look Martha, there's actually working bred dogs right here in town and we can go play with the pups and bring one home today.

I've been approached several times by several people to breed my dogs. They don't get it when I explain how that's not really a good idea. If the demand locally was for 50 BC pups a year, 40 of those will be from regular people, who likely have never even heard of "working lines" . As a breeder, I know that all I have to tell people is what they want to hear, whether or not it's exactly true. It's just kinda true. Both my dogs come from working lines (some of those lines are pretty long and frail! ), but it satisfies the due diligence" required to justify the instant gratification most (that I know) puppy purchasers need to bring home little fluffy today.

I could easily sell 20 pups a year, based on my version of my great working dogs (did I mention Rig can do a handstand??).

Knowing what I know now, yes, I can relatively easily find a REAL working bred dog. My Cricket is one such dog. But no, it isn't easy. It could take hours of reading, I might have to fly in a pup (what a huge hassle, kids have soccer that day).

Even the people I know in sports that should know better suggest I breed. Many of them own at least one BC. But this is the way it goes. For every person that will spend all the time reading, researching, etc, there are a dozen that want a pup before sunset. As long as they hear the right words about working blah blah, they can justify buying the pup. Oh, but I did do all th eright stuff, I bought a working bred pup. It's too easy to stay naive. I can have what I want by dinner. All the other stuff is a hassle.

Now really, for me to get to where I am, I had to do a lot of work, working at trials, taking classes, hanging out with the stock people. It's been almost a year to get to know some of the people I do that could help me find a real pup. Most puppy purchasers will not do that. Not ever. It just isn't going to happen.

How to fix it? No idea. Still too new, and my point of view comes from only 2 years experience with the breed. I came this path, and seek out the best dog available to me, given who and what I know. I have 10 friends that look at me funny when I talk about why we should not breed dogs. They're all BC owners and should know better. They either don't know, or don't care.

Yes, that may put the breed in danger one day. I guess as long as there are purists and idealists, we can delay the danger, if in fact there is a real danger, but with modern society and the need for instant gratification, and the unfortunate fact that it's far to easy for a BYB to satisfy that need, we are heading in a bad direction.

 

 

disclaimer--> no puppies were made in the making of this post

[stockdogranch]

Methinks that the fundamental problem is that there are individuals who believe that BCs shouldn't be used for anything but stock work.

Ummm...no...have you not been paying attention here? *Use* them for anything you want; just don't BREED them,

A

[Eileen Stein]

Methinks that the fundamental problem is that there are individuals who believe that BCs shouldn't be used for anything but stock work.

 

There may be such individuals, but that's far from the fundamental problem. And there's no reason to think Candy holds such a view, since she clearly said (in post #181) that "I have NO issues with people "doing agility" (I think its great they are involved with their dogs) ... its BREEDING for it that I disagree with."

[juliepoudrier]

Methinks that the fundamental problem is that there are individuals who believe that BCs shouldn't be used for anything but stock work.

You've been on this forum how long? And yet you still trot out this old chestnut? I guess some folks are going to believe what they want to believe, despite all evidence (and comments ad nauseum) to the contrary.

 

J.

[kelpiegirl]

I think the disconnect, is that bdawgs suggested that she would not look for a top handler to get her next dog from, rather a nearby farmer, and that was then translated some how into bdawgs getting a badly bred dog, which we all know is hardly mutually inclusive.

 

I tried to get a dog from a really good breeding once, and it didn't happen- pups were spoken for long before I could formulate the thought in my head. Really nicely bred pups ARE spoken before, generally at least, before they are born. So, you have to do the best you can with what is available. Sometimes it takes waiting, or, maybe the right dog falls in your lap, but there are a lot of factors that go into it.

[Blackdawgs]

I think the disconnect, is that bdawgs suggested that she would not look for a top handler to get her next dog from, rather a nearby farmer, and that was then translated some how into bdawgs getting a badly bred dog, which we all know is hardly mutually inclusive.

 

Yes, there is a pretty big disconnect or reading comprehension problem. It seems that sports enthusiasts are viewed less than kindly by (some) folks with little or no experience in the sports realm. I never said that "any" dog would do, that I "sort of" do agility, or that I was going to buy the first dog that I saw advertised in the local paper and then breed it after it earned a few agility titles. Actually, I've never purchased a dog before and have always had rescues. To me, purchasing a dog is a big damn deal and it isn't going to happen without a lot of serious thought.

 

This isn't the first time that I've been jumped on by some members of this board. This makes me not very enthusiastic about the stock dog world, which is too bad because I'm the kind of student and customer that many people like to have. My current dog has been on stock about 30 times, but I stopped for a lot of reasons not having anything to do with my willingless to learn, get dirty, or pay. If the right stock dog trainer was locally available, I'd still be awakening at 5 AM on weekends to drive the dog to sheep and would have perhaps purchased a dog by now. I say this because some of these misunderstandings??? attitudes??? may be driving away potential cross-overs from the sports world.

[SS Cressa]

This isn't the first time that I've been jumped on by some members of this board. This makes me not very enthusiastic about the stock dog world, which is too bad because I'm the kind of student and customer that many people like to have. ... I say this because some of these misunderstandings??? attitudes??? may be driving away potential cross-overs from the sports world.

 

Oh yes! These type of topics definitly make me rethink about wanting a "working" bred dog as define by this board.

 

I think most of it is: we, the general we, and some of the other posters are from two diffent type of worlds and I don't think can/is able to and or willing to see eye to eye or even try to understand where the other is coming from.

 

I laugh when i read about how to find a breeder. That basic guild line is the same for all good breeder of any sports/work breeding. Just some are most accessible and nicer/easier to talk to then other.

 

I think the thread topic is perfect for these type of post!

sometimes I feel like giving up...

[juliepoudrier]

One thing I've noticed in discussions like this: It's always the people on the "other side" who have the attitude problem.

 

J.

[SS Cressa]

One thing I've noticed in discussions like this: It's always the people on the "other side" who have the attitude problem.

 

J.

 

If we get to pick sides I want to be on the DARK side. I hear they have homemade cookies and ice cream.

[rushdoggie]

If we get to pick sides I want to be on the DARK side. I hear they have homemade cookies and ice cream.

[Blackdawgs]

One thing I've noticed in discussions like this: It's always the people on the "other side" who have the attitude problem.

 

J.

 

Well, of course it is always the OTHER guy's fault.

 

However, you (the collective "you") may want to consider this: With the move away from our agricultural roots, sports people are probably your best hope of infusing new (human) blood into the working Border Collie realm. And that isn't going to happen if sports people are made to feel belittled and unwelcome.

 

I'm off to bake some cookies.

[Eileen Stein]

However, you (the collective "you") may want to consider this: With the move away from our agricultural roots, sports people are probably your best hope of infusing new (human) blood into the working Border Collie realm. And that isn't going to happen if sports people are made to feel belittled and unwelcome.

 

I don't think we particularly want to infuse new (human) blood into the working border collie realm. Certainly not without regard to blood type. Speaking for myself, I'd like to see a certain kind of person interested in border collies -- the kind of person who appreciates the breed so much that they are open to learning about its history, its essence, and what they can do to contribute to preserving its essence. There are quite a few people like that outside the livestock community, and they are very welcome. To a large extent, these Boards exist to serve such people. -- to answer their questions, help with their problems, and provide a place for them to converse with others of like mind. But someone who wants a border collie for reasons that don't have much to do with their essence, and who doesn't see any particular reason to consider the interests of the breed when looking to buy one -- well, I don't really see why either we, or that person, or the breed, benefits from that person's buying a border collie. My hope would be that that person would get a rescue, or choose some other breed. Wonderful dogs can be found via either of those routes.

 

I'm always quick to say that I think it's great for people to participate in agility or other sports with their border collie, because that's my true feeling. But if someone doesn't want to hear that, or persists in feeling that I really, secretly think otherwise, or that I don't meet their standards of welcoming-ness, well, I guess I'll just have to live with that.

[juliepoudrier]

Speaking for myself, I'd like to see a certain kind of person interested in border collies -- the kind of person who appreciates the breed so much that they are open to learning about its history, its essence, and what they can do to contribute to preserving its essence. [emphasis added] There are quite a few people like that outside the livestock community, and they are very welcome.

 

I'm always quick to say that I think it's great for people to participate in agility or other sports with their border collie, because that's my true feeling. But if someone doesn't want to hear that, or persists in feeling that I really, secretly think otherwise, or that I don't meet their standards of welcoming-ness, well, I guess I'll just have to live with that.

I think this says it for many of us.

 

Blackdawgs,

I really am sorry you feel belittled and unwelcome. ISTM that much of the most contentious part of this discussion was *among* the working-dog folks and not really even aimed at the sports people per se.

 

J.

[stockdogranch]

Well said, Eileen. I'm continually fascinated to see that these discussions always end up in the same old place, i.e., when logic and reasoning are presented that just might support decisions to breed border collies for stockworking ability only (and that, to a high degree), those who refuse to get it (I say "refuse" because I really don't think the average person is so dense as to not understand, given the patient explanations that are presented ad nauseum ) simply go back to that worn out refrain--"but you people treat us like lesser beings, and tell us we are inferior because we choose to do other things with our dogs." Noone has EVER said that, but, I guess it's easier to just play the victim when one has run out of intelligent discussion,

A

[Sue R]

Well said, Eileen. I'm continually fascinated to see that these discussions always end up in the same old place, i.e., when logic and reasoning are presented that just might support decisions to breed border collies for stockworking ability only (and that, to a high degree), those who refuse to get it (I say "refuse" because I really don't think the average person is so dense as to not understand, given the patient explanations that are presented ad nauseum ) simply go back to that worn out refrain--"but you people treat us like lesser beings, and tell us we are inferior because we choose to do other things with our dogs." Noone has EVER said that, but, I guess it's easier to just play the victim when one has run out of intelligent discussion,

A

True, but as you say, we tend to hear the same sad refrain over and over again, often from the very same people.

 

I have found it interesting, when I have time to waste, to look at the blogs/links/webpages of some of the folks that are most persistent about disagreeing with what Eileen just wrote and what many of the supporters of the working-bred Border Collie have had to say in this topic and others like it. And that makes me feel that, with regards to certain people, it might just save a whole lot of energy to just give up - and go do something productive with my time.

 

This isn't aimed at any one person but, if you feel it applies to you, fine with me.