Eileen Stein Posted April 25, 2009 Report Share Posted April 25, 2009 "Whale eye" is one that even I, a rather fluent speaker of dog, had missed: when Buddy and most dogs get a bit overwhelmed by their situation, they widen their eyes a bit and look to the side. I notice it a LOT when Buddy meets dogs who scare him, and it's a precursor to a growl and snap. I think what you're saying here is that with Buddy it's a precursor to a growl and snap, but I often hear it said that this "whale eye" (or "half moon eye" or whatever term you use for it) is a sign of an aggressive dog, and I don't think this is true. It's a sign of a nervous dog -- a dog who's thinking, "Whoa, I don't like this much" -- but that thought is as likely to be followed by an avoidance action (or even a submissive action) as it is by a growl and snap, depending on the dog. I often see that eye in my lower-ranking male when my higher-ranking male walks up to the two of us in a fairly confined space, but what always happens next is that the lower-ranking male moves away (usually only a short distance away). But if you're talking about a dog that you know is given to growling and snapping, I certainly agree that this sign of uneasiness is something to watch for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbc1963 Posted April 25, 2009 Report Share Posted April 25, 2009 I think what you're saying here is that with Buddy it's a precursor to a growl and snap, but I often hear it said that this "whale eye" (or "half moon eye" or whatever term you use for it) is a sign of an aggressive dog, and I don't think this is true. It's a sign of a nervous dog... Absolutely. Buddy is dog reactive, and if I see "whale eye" or "half moon eye" when another dog is in his personal space, then I know his discomfort level is high, and he's likely to snark at another dog. Sometimes I can avoid the snarking if I ask the other owner to back off at whale-eye level, rather than waiting for Buddy's discomfort to escalate. On the other hand, Buddy might show whale eye at the vet's office, but in that context, it just means he's really nervous. He definitely has different behaviors for nervousness with humans vs. dogs. He doesn't snarl or snap at the vet or vet techs - he just acts really scared. I think it's worthwhile for Pansmom to watch for whale eye, if she's learning to read Pan's signals. It might happen before Pan feels so tense that she does the curled lip or snarl. Mary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toot Posted April 26, 2009 Report Share Posted April 26, 2009 Pansmom, I just joined this site yesterday. I have been jumping around reading many posts and came upon this one. I have read most ALL of the different posts added to your topic and think you have been given some very good advice. I really have nothing to add other than I feel you are a very good and responsible pet owner, who really does care. My hat is off to you and good luck with Pan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topnotchdog Posted April 26, 2009 Report Share Posted April 26, 2009 Hi Pansmom, I just wanted to echo those who have recommended getting the input of a board certified veterinary behaviorist. While this is generally quite expensive, there are are a couple of low-cost or no-cost options you could explore. First, most (if not all) offer a service in which they will speak directly to your veterinarian free of charge. So it would be like consulting with them through your vet. You may glean some valuable insight from that, or guidance for your vet on a test to run or which med (if any) may be the one of choice to try first. Second, if the vet behaviorist in question is engaged in a study, like a drug trial, this could be a way to get a free complete assessment and treatment program in place for you. It is very worthwhile to explore this given the issues you've described. It's tempting to use trial and error and then have setbacks again; seems a consult could spare you some of that and give you good help for the long-run. Evidently there is a veterinary behaviorist in New Orleans who is not yet board certified, but I am having trouble tracking the name down for you. But that's ok, other board certified vet behaviorists, not in your immediate geographical area, likely would discuss with your vet as well. Also, in one part of this thread there was mention of the science behind how dogs learn but "what's up with all the symbols?" Teh abbreviations aren't important, ut given all you've done and want to try, it may be helpful to have the gist of how we think they learn. A great book for that, not very jargony and reads easily, is "How Dog's Learn" by Burch and Bailey. bet you can get it free at your library or ask them to bring it to you through inter-library loan. I have just registered to be on the boards and will introduce myself asap (and figure out how to make a profile, etc.), just was eager to chime in on this. Barbara Shumannfang I have heard a variety of things, from if your dog is a habitual biter, you should put her to sleep, to maybe your dog should go live on a farm. We live in an urban area and cannot adjust our lifestyle any further (I love dogs and love having her around me all day, also I love the biking, but we can't afford to move out of the city as our jobs are here and we share a car). I love the dog very much and don't want to put her to sleep unless it is clear she is ill and incurable. But we have spent so much on trainers and behavioralists and so forth that we can't afford to take her back to the vet anymore. We did that in February and he said she was healthy, but he didn't run any blood tests or anything. (We have to drive to another town for internal medicine. Our town is pretty small.) Does anyone have any advice? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted April 26, 2009 Report Share Posted April 26, 2009 Welcome to two new members who have found this topic important and interesting enough to respond! This has been a most contructive and civil (not to mention, long) topic that can benefit many dog owners through its discussion of training viewpoints. Pan is very, very fortunate to have a couple that are trying very hard to do their best with her. Too bad not all dogs have such caring, thoughtful, and willing owners to help them over the rough spots - and a caring community of people who want to help. It's something like this that really, really makes it worthwhile to take the time and effort for folks to contribute in a desire to make a positive difference in a dog's (and her human's) life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northof49 Posted April 27, 2009 Report Share Posted April 27, 2009 I am not as negative as that... I think part of the problem in the beginning was me being a new dog owner and not knowing how to recognize Pan's body Anyway, more good news: my department head was able to give me a summer class, so I may be able to take her to a veterinary behaviorist over the summer - hopefully one who will work with me on both behavior mod and medication. AND the kennel that works with aggression called me back and there will be room for her when we go on vacation in late May. Not only that but they understand fear aggression too and I may be able to go in for a one on one session with the certified trainer before I go out of town. I definitely want to take her there a few times before we go so that she will associate going there with positive experiences. The lady on the phone was VERY nice and understanding. Personally I would be very leary of any Kennel that takes in dogs for training. I have researched dozens of them just out of curiousity and for people that have asked me about a certain kennel for in-house training, and none of them are what would be described as using postive traning methods to train the dogs OR modify behaviour issues through classical counter-condtition etc. THey are more punishment based. I would highly recommend that you be allowed to watch them work with other dogs, specifically with behaviour issues such as Pan and see what they do, before you make a decision about sending your dog away for training. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnewe2 Posted April 27, 2009 Report Share Posted April 27, 2009 Personally I would be very leary of any Kennel that takes in dogs for training. I have researched dozens of them just out of curiousity and for people that have asked me about a certain kennel for in-house training, and none of them are what would be described as using postive traning methods to train the dogs OR modify behaviour issues through classical counter-condtition etc. THey are more punishment based. I would highly recommend that you be allowed to watch them work with other dogs, specifically with behaviour issues such as Pan and see what they do, before you make a decision about sending your dog away for training. my thoughts exactly. I know of one such place in MO. He takes dogs in for boarding, dogs in for board/training. Then he takes students that what to attend his dog training school. So lots of the dogs are used for the new students. Not that that's all that bad but I sure wouldn't want that to happen to Pan at this vunerable stage. Then I later met an exstudent of this same kennel. She quit because they said they trained one way then showed the students a different way which included much harsher training methods than they say they use. I'm not going to say I don't agree with the training, I really don't konw what type they used and I'm not a fan of PP training for all situations but for Pan, I think anything done improperly could set her way back. It was all very misleading to the people sending their dog off for training. So if possible I'd drop by unannounced at a time that seems like it'd be training time and just watch what's going on. I wouldn't mention who i was or what I was there for, just that I was interested in checking out the kennel for later use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted April 27, 2009 Report Share Posted April 27, 2009 I don't think pansmom was intending to send Pan to the kennel for training. I think they just need a place where they can board Pan while they're away on a trip, and she wanted a kennel that was accepting of dogs with aggression issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnewe2 Posted April 27, 2009 Report Share Posted April 27, 2009 awww. now I see. I was thinking she wanted them to work with Pan while she was being boarded there. Misunderstood. Gotcha now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pansmom Posted April 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 awww. now I see. I was thinking she wanted them to work with Pan while she was being boarded there. Misunderstood.Gotcha now Yeah, I'm not thinking of having them work with her. I just need a kennel that isn't afraid of fear aggressive dogs as a backup plan in case nothing else works out. I checked what kind of certs this guy has and it's all like police dog stuff - ok if you're talking about guard dogs - but not really the type of place for a spooky dog. Don't worry, I'm taking Pan to a behaviorist as soon as school is out. Waiting on a recommendation from Dr. Overall through a very kind board regular. Pan's bloodwork came back from Hemopet today with T4 slightly low but still adequate ("Thyroid within normal levels despite clinical signs though T4 could be a bit higher" is the exact quote, and eosinophil being very high (Dr. Dodds indicated possible parasites or allergies). She is on heartworm/roundworm/etc and flea preventative so I don't know what that could be about. Have to talk to the vet in the morning. Pan is going four weeks now without a bite (apart from my husband's shoe that once in the back yard). There have been growls at the husband (much fewer this past week since we started the trust exercises) but she has only growled at me that once since I've been being extra-gentle/cautious with her. Nipping yes, a little roughhousing yes, (sometimes she thinks it's time to play when I am putting her leash on--I respond to this by shunning her dramatically - folding arms and rolling eyes) but no growls except for that one very predictable lip curl and snarl that I reported the second or so morning I was back (which resulted from snout holding + petting simultaneous). And it's been almost a week since that. YAY! And yes, I am aware it is sad I feel this way; it's kind of a pathetic milestone. But who cares. YAY one week nogrowliversary! and quasi-nobitiversary one month! Oh and she KNOWS what leave the room means. And it really works to act like I think her snarking at the cats means she wants to leave the room. She does it, I go "Leave the room?" in a happy tone and then she gets sulky and comes and lays on my foot. V is for victory, bwahaha. She still barks crazy at weird noises (a little less since we shaded all the windows) but the aggression is not directed at us at least. I'm hoping for some relief via the behaviorist possibly with Clomicalm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pansmom Posted April 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 http://www.familypaws.com/communication/http://www.squidoo.com/readyerdog Did I say thanks for these? They have been REALLY helpful this past week. I shared them with my husband also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urge to herd Posted April 28, 2009 Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 YAY! And yes, I am aware it is sad I feel this way; it's kind of a pathetic milestone. But who cares. YAY one week nogrowliversary! and quasi-nobitiversary one month! Oh and she KNOWS what leave the room means. And it really works to act like I think her snarking at the cats means she wants to leave the room. She does it, I go "Leave the room?" in a happy tone and then she gets sulky and comes and lays on my foot. V is for victory, bwahaha. snip I'm hoping for some relief via the behaviorist possibly with Clomicalm. Considering Pan's life has hung in the balance, I think this is a wonderful milestone to celebrate. I've been following, not posting except once early on. I think you and your hubby are the best possible owners for Pan. If I lived next door I'd be bringing you a bottle of wine or a plate of cookies to celebrate with! I hope the clomicalm, (make sure you ask for the generic, clomiprimine, it's much cheaper) works as well for Pan as it does for Shonie. Ruth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northof49 Posted April 28, 2009 Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 YAY! And yes, I am aware it is sad I feel this way; it's kind of a pathetic milestone. But who cares. YAY one week nogrowliversary! and quasi-nobitiversary one month! NO WAY - those are very very important milestones - it shows that things are improving for Pan. Good for you guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pippin's person Posted April 28, 2009 Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 If I lived next door I'd be bringing you a bottle of wine or a plate of cookies to celebrate with! Ditto that--what a great update to read. You've really done nice work with your dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ms.DaisyDuke Posted April 28, 2009 Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 Yes, it's really nice to read this today. I am glad things are starting to come around and aren't so bleak. Keep up the good work and hopefully you'll have many more years together! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnewe2 Posted April 28, 2009 Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 So let's say at 6 this evening we all have a glass of wine and toast Pan and her family for the great strides they are making.... Any excuse to drink wine is a good one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urge to herd Posted April 28, 2009 Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 So let's say at 6 this evening we all have a glass of wine and toast Pan and her family for the great strides they are making....Any excuse to drink wine is a good one! I'll have myself a glass of wine at 6 pm PST in honor of Pan and her humans, and wish that all creatures could have such loving homes. Ruth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBlaylock Posted April 28, 2009 Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 I'm down. But, instead of wine, does anyone mind if I have a beer to celebrate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esox Posted April 28, 2009 Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 6:00 PST it is. I'm with JBlaylock and will be popping open a Molson. Esox & Alex(who will be having a dog treat instead of a beverage) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted April 28, 2009 Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 YAY! And yes, I am aware it is sad I feel this way; it's kind of a pathetic milestone. But who cares. YAY one week nogrowliversary! and quasi-nobitiversary one month! Good for you! The harder you work to overcome an issue, the sweeter those milestones are Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beachdogz Posted April 28, 2009 Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 So let's say at 6 this evening we all have a glass of wine and toast Pan and her family for the great strides they are making....Any excuse to drink wine is a good one! Now this is why I love this board. Any good excuse to sit down and have a glass of wine sounds good to me. I'll be doing a wine cooler. To pan and pansmom....cheers! 6 p.m. PST is 9 p.m. EST. I'll be there. B Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnewe2 Posted April 28, 2009 Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 ok so call me time challanged. I'm in a new time zone. I might live here but my body says differently. What time will it be in Mountain time for the rest at 6? i wasn't going to mention this but I'm going to have a cosmo. martini. My new fav. drink only one drink! So whatever is the choice of the evening....lets toast Pan and her fam. for the great work they're doing! If i get the time wrong....I could....maybe....have 2! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurae Posted April 28, 2009 Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 ok so call me time challanged. I'm in a new time zone. I might live here but my body says differently.What time will it be in Mountain time for the rest at 6? That will be 7 pm for us, Kristen! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lrayburn Posted April 28, 2009 Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 Pan's bloodwork came back from Hemopet today with T4 slightly low but still adequate ("Thyroid within normal levels despite clinical signs though T4 could be a bit higher" is the exact quote, and eosinophil being very high (Dr. Dodds indicated possible parasites or allergies). She is on heartworm/roundworm/etc and flea preventative so I don't know what that could be about. Have to talk to the vet in the morning. Hey Pansmom, Please check out my threads regarding Nellie's thyroid issues. She is dog aggressive and noise phobic. She tested on the low end of normal for several years and the vet did not recommend treatment. Last fall, I asked if we could go ahead and treat anyway and see if it made a difference. She has been on the thyroid treatment for several months and it has made a tremendous difference in her attitude, aggression and even her phobias. So consider asking your vet if it would be worth treating her with Thyroxine just to see how well she responds - many dogs and people may need to be in the mid to high range of "normal" to function well. I can't seem to make the threads embed but the urls are here: http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.p...=thyroid+nellie http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.p...=thyroid+nellie Congratulations on seeing some of your hardwork pay off! Lisa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pansmom Posted April 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 Don't get out the wine yet - sigh. Or rather, celebrate the ONE WEEK nogrowliversary because she did reach that BUT... I guess after her one week nogrowliversary she decided she had to get some growls out. The good news: she growled at the broom not me. But I was holding it... Today she tried to herd the cat with a little too much snarking while I was on the phone, so I made her "leave the room." She did, finally, but apparently she went directly into the kitchen and shredded a napkin that had fallen onto the floor where she sleeps at night. After I got off the phone, she decided to become protective of the napkin shreds. I had told her to move and go across the room, which she had done, but after I grabbed the broom and started sweeping, she hurried over and growled at the broom and bit the straw. It was pretty low grade aggression, not that scary, almost (but not quite) normal dog, but I still don't like it. It seems we are back to her original problem - it was like she was protecting her nest - that territorial nonsense. Thankfully my husband came into the room and told her no and swept it up. He was annoyed at me because he says the simple answer to THIS problem is "don't let her do it." He told her "no" in a firm low voice and started sweeping confidently, and she let him. Then after he left because she was still nervous/excited, another small noise set her off and she started barking, at which point I made her go into time out in the bathroom. She was there for about ten minutes, mostly quiet (one eruption of weird barking that I answered by telling her to "hush" which she obeyed). I made sure she was quiet for a while before I let her out, and then before I let her out I made her do a series of tricks that she did nicely and happily (sit, touch, kiss, shake, down, sit, ok come on). I am typing this up as much for me as for y'all. I will probably print it out for the behaviorist. What I want to express is that her behavior swings like a pendelum - she appears to be scared of us and fear aggressive when we are too firm (if we at all use our hands to physically confine her), but territorially aggressive when we are too nice (when we are not touching her except with affection). I'm finding it difficult to discover a happy medium, in which she knows I am in charge, but is not frightened of me (thankfully my husband does seem to be able to get her to stop that junk - but it's like I'm too gentle and nice or something - gosh I feel like my parents honestly, my mom was such a sucker, but my dad you didn't cross). Is that a viable way to handle this? Good cop, bad cop attitudes, with no one laying hands on her except in love? Or does she need consistency. Right now if she were a child, honestly, I would describe her behavior as spoiled. Also possibly autistic or ADHD. She is barking a lot this afternoon, and she had a nice long run this morning and another short walk at lunch... She shouldn't be so excitable. I just gave her her second Quiet Moments of the day, a bit early. Maybe she'll settle down. Thoughts on how I'm handling this anyone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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