Terrible Aggression - at my wit's end, please help!

[SoloRiver]

Solo hates anything with a lot of bass. My husband has this wonderful surround sound system set up for TV and music, but we can't use it because the subwoofer makes Solo totally freak out. It's kind of a bummer. Sometimes we can get away with the subwoofer if we're watching something that has, like no music and no sound effects in it.

[Ooky]

PAN HATES BATTLESTAR GALACTICA!

(No, seriously, it's a trigger. Or at least is was, in February.

Twice she growled at our feet while we were watching it.

Maybe because we tensed up and the noise???)

But my husband and I loved it... until the ending.

Boo, BG ending... but yay for wine and the progress of Pan!

 

Odin LOVES Battlestar and Star Trek and Star Wars, etc. for the space scenes! I'm serious, he loves it when they make the weird shrieky noises and shoot each other with lasers and fly around. Star Trek usually has much more stately space scenes, and he watches them almost, like, hopefully, as if he knows the starry backdrop and what excitement it can bring. Jeez, can you tell we watch a lot of sci-fi?

 

In general it's so funny how he watches TV - when people stand in a room talking to each other he typically loses all interest, unless they are speaking another language. But even that gets old after awhile. It's exactly what bores him in real life too - when the people get yakking to each other.

 

PS I also celebrated the nogrowliversery last night. And the broom thing was no reason not to. BTW I understand exactly what you mean about being not panicked but so disappointed you don't know what to do with your dog and own self for a second, and being unsure, and then the "right" moment passes and you're just going, "Wow, that didn't go well". I am supposed to be working on my correction technique now and I hate it. When he does the stuff I don't want him to do, I'm supposed to seize the moment as a swift and sure training opportunity under advice from my trainer. Instead I tend to get disappointed, unsure, and correct at the wrong time, not hard enough, or too much. Not your same problem but just sayin, from one first-dog-timer/long-time-cat-person to another, it is so complicated!

[pansmom]

I also celebrated the nogrowliversery last night. And the broom thing was no reason not to. BTW I understand exactly what you mean about being not panicked but so disappointed you don't know what to do with your dog and own self for a second, and being unsure, and then the "right" moment passes and you're just going, "Wow, that didn't go well". I am supposed to be working on my correction technique now and I hate it. When he does the stuff I don't want him to do, I'm supposed to seize the moment as a swift and sure training opportunity under advice from my trainer. Instead I tend to get disappointed, unsure, and correct at the wrong time, not hard enough, or too much. Not your same problem but just sayin, from one first-dog-timer/long-time-cat-person to another, it is so complicated!

 

Thanks for the support.

 

Just had another episode this evening though - can't be sure if it was a redirect or what, but she was barking like crazy and I told her to hush then when she didn't was trying to dramatically leave the room but she came closer to me instead, so I raised one finger calmly and told her no at which point she started growling (and when I say I raised one finger calmly I mean it, I did not stick it in her face, I just calmly raised it - right where it was - and gave her a look). But she reacted by growling at me. And jumping up a bit. Not near my face or actually trying to land a bite but basically throwing a tantrum like she was outraged by the finger somehow. I put her in time out. Now she is in time out again because she kept attacking the cats. She gets restless and looks for ways to release it. I ran her seven miles today! This territorial/assertive mess + fear is hard!

 

I am still happy about the nobitiversary though.

 

Have been corresponding with a veterinary behaviorist in Florida, may make an appointment June 4 (that was the earliest she had, and I still have to call and check times and prices during working hours). In the meantime going to try the DAP pheromone spray - do they have that at PetSmart, anybody know? I know my trainer there recommended it once.

 

ETA: I didn't let her out of time out until she would sit immediately on command at the door (it took twenty minutes and three tries!!! the first time she ignored me, the second time she licked my toes but didn't listen to the sit, and the third she looked up and looked down and sat kinda philosophical like). And this time when she got out she is being very good even listening to me when I tell her to leave it about the cats. She's running to get her bone and towel thing and taking it out on her toys. PROGRESS? For tonight at least it seems like...

[Northof49]

Thanks for the support.

 

Just had another episode this evening though - can't be sure if it was a redirect or what, but she was barking like crazy and I told her to hush then when she didn't was trying to dramatically leave the room but she came closer to me instead, so I raised one finger calmly and told her no at which point she started growling (and when I say I raised one finger calmly I mean it, I did not stick it in her face, I just calmly raised it - right where it was - and gave her a look). But she reacted by growling at me. And jumping up a bit. Not near my face or actually trying to land a bite but basically throwing a tantrum like she was outraged by the finger somehow. I put her in time out. Now she is in time out again because she kept attacking the cats. She gets restless and looks for ways to release it. I ran her seven miles today! This territorial/assertive mess + fear is hard!

 

I am still happy about the nobitiversary though.

 

Have been corresponding with a veterinary behaviorist in Florida, may make an appointment June 4 (that was the earliest she had, and I still have to call and check times and prices during working hours). In the meantime going to try the DAP pheromone spray - do they have that at PetSmart, anybody know? I know my trainer there recommended it once.

 

ETA: I didn't let her out of time out until she would sit immediately on command at the door (it took twenty minutes and three tries!!! the first time she ignored me, the second time she licked my toes but didn't listen to the sit, and the third she looked up and looked down and sat kinda philosophical like). And this time when she got out she is being very good even listening to me when I tell her to leave it about the cats. She's running to get her bone and towel thing and taking it out on her toys. PROGRESS? For tonight at least it seems like...

 

I think you have to get the DAP at a vet's office, but don't quote me on that. You can also get the ones that plug ito the wall. I haven't used one myself, but know a lot people that have - some with really good success and others not so much, but it is worth seeing it it does work for a particular dog.

 

Have you considered joing the yahoo group Agbeh for agressive dogs. I have been on is for a couple of years now and it is an excellent group, but they don't pussy foot around.

 

have you considered getting the book Calming Signals? It is really great at getting you to understand dog body language and how to use your body language to help your dog. Your body language when you left the room could have given Pan the opposite information of what you intended.

 

With respect to the cats, is there anyway you can gate off an area of your house so that she can't get at them? I am lucky to have an OLD house, so there are doorways that I can gate off and my upstairs loft is blocked off so the dogs can't get up there unless I let them. I have used Xpens for wider doorways etc as well

 

Also, I haven't read all the posts on this, but when she listens to you about leaving the cats, are you rewarding her? With my evil puppy Ivy, who thinks the cats want to play with her, and they really want to kill her (she can't seem to get that through her thick skull) I make sure the cats have access to parts of the house that she can't get to, and when I work with her at ignoring the cats, I heavily reward her with treats (cooked chicken hearts) which she goes crazy over, so paying attention to me to work for the chicken hearts is more valuable to her than going after the cats.

 

One thing I have done when a dog is barking like crazy and the owner can't seem to get the dog to stop, is I have them throw a whole bunch of treats on the floor. 99% of the time they immediately stop barking as they are too busy eating the treats (usually big milk bones). This is NOT rewarding the dog for barking,it is simply a redirect - the dog stops thinking about barking because it is too busy getting all the treats off the floor.

[SoloRiver]

Solo sometimes barks when he sees people outside of the front window (actually, usually Jett sees them and sets Solo off -- she likes to look out the window). Jett is easy to stop with a "quiet!" but Solo just barks louder when I yell at him. The quickest way to shut Solo up is to tell him sweetly, "OK, Solo," ask him to sit, and then look out the window myself and say "Thank you, Solo, good boy." Then I pet him and release him from his sit and he goes about his business.

 

I guess if he went off all the time I would just keep him away from that window, but I figure, he's yelling because he thinks I should come check it out, so I do, and then I try to communicate that it's nothing important and thank him for his trouble. I don't want him to NOT alert if indeed something fishy is going on, so I don't want to squash the barking entirely, and this technique calms him down immediately. I also think it teaches him that certain things, like the neighbors unloading groceries in their driveway, are not really all that important, because I've checked it out and am not alarmed about it. He does seem to be getting less reactive over time. This is a new issue for us since for most of our time together we did not live in a house with a front window.

 

Unfortunately, my method does not work in the car. I gave up long ago on getting Solo to stop barking at people outside of the car. It's one of those battles I basically decided not to fight, and besides, it's not necessarily a bad thing to have a dog who keeps strangers away from the car. That said, if Pan's reaction is as strong as Solo's is in the car, my "thank you" method probably isn't going to do any good.

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

One thing I have done when a dog is barking like crazy and the owner can't seem to get the dog to stop, is I have them throw a whole bunch of treats on the floor. 99% of the time they immediately stop barking as they are too busy eating the treats (usually big milk bones). This is NOT rewarding the dog for barking,it is simply a redirect - the dog stops thinking about barking because it is too busy getting all the treats off the floor.

 

I've used this and it does work quite well. I just drop an handful of whatever is in my pocket to re-direct the dog. I've also heard of it used with nervous dogs who don't have good communication skills with other dogs. It simulates sniffing (a calming signal) and helps put both dogs at ease.

 

I have looked for DAP spray at PetSmart and I can't seem to find it. I've seen it on their website and many others, but have yet to actually find it in a store. I would like to try it on my foster with SA.

[Eileen Stein]

One thing I have done when a dog is barking like crazy and the owner can't seem to get the dog to stop, is I have them throw a whole bunch of treats on the floor. 99% of the time they immediately stop barking as they are too busy eating the treats (usually big milk bones). This is NOT rewarding the dog for barking,it is simply a redirect - the dog stops thinking about barking because it is too busy getting all the treats off the floor.

 

Hmmm -- treats are rewarding, and you give him a bunch of them when he barks. . . .

 

How would you do it differently if you were trying to reward him for barking?

[Alaska]

Been off line for a couple of days (travelling), but I seem to have managed to participate in the communal beverage consumption event yesterday at 6 pm nonetheless

 

Re autism. I've been wanted to recommend a read of Animals in Translation by Temple Grandin, who has autism (or whatever the current PC way is to say that) and a PhD and works with animals professionally. Her basic premise is that autistic humans experience the world in much the same way that animals do, and whether or not she's right, I've found her theory to be interesting and useful.

 

Normal humans, she says, integrate the signals coming in from all their senses into a single picture of what's going on around them. Autistic people and animals, she says, hear and see and smell all the same things, but they experience them as a cacaphony of individual stimuli. As such, the world can be a very noisy place, sometimes too noisy for comfort, maybe even noisy enough to be genuinely irritating.

 

We know that dogs hear better and smell better than we do. They don't see as acutely, but they do sense movement better, and over longer distances, than we do. Drawing on Grandin's cacaphony image, I often remind myself that what seems like a normal noise level to me could be quite a racket for my dog, and what seems like a perfectly understandable herd of cattle strolling through the pasture across the highway could be a fuzzy, large menace of unknown description to my dog.

 

Pansmom, you have often described Pan as hyper-sensitive to external stimuli. You may find it useful to accept that - as you would with an autistic person - rather than trying to change it.

 

How can you use this perspective? Many people believe that all verbal interactions with dogs should be "commands" issued in a loud, firm voice. My default is to begin with the quietest voice possible, often a whisper, and use the intontation I would use if I were making a request (e.g. for a sit) rather than a command. I will use a sharper tone to interrupt undesired behavior (e.g. rummaging in the cat litter box), but I still try to speak quietly and calmly, only increasing volume if the dog is too distracted or the background noise too great for the dog to hear my first attempt. This works well for me (most of the time - there are exceptions of course), and I feel like I'm being more considerate of a creature whose hearing is more acute than mine.

 

Similarly, if Pan's world has a lot of fast moving objects (e.g. outside the window), she might appreciate a visual barrier that blocks her view of them and "quiets' her world down. One of my BCs used to be a pain to ride with in the car as he invariably slammed from one window to another tracking all the other cars moving by. He now rides in a plastic crate that greatly limits his ability to see out of the car, and he sleeps the whole way. I feel like I've done him a favor, by allowing him to relax.

 

Animals in Translatiion is full of wild speculation and I'm not taking a position on whether Grandin is right about any of it, but in general I've found it a useful model to consider that dogs and some other humans and who knows what other creatures may find stimuli that I consider normal to be loud enough to be irritating. That allows me to focus on ways I can tone down the volume of the stimuli, rather than limiting my range of options to merely working on modifying the dog's response.

[mbc1963]

Hmm... interesting on the Temple Grandin book. When I first had Buddy, and he was super-reactive, I used to tell people that I had an autistic dog. Seriously: he acted in response to stimuli the same way a lot of the autistic kids at my school do. It was like he just couldn't process all the information coming at him at once. Even now, if he's focused on one dog, and another fast-moving dog enters the picture, it's likely to set off a reaction. It goes along with threshold theory: every additional stressor is additive, until the threshold is overreached.

 

I'm pretty sure Buddy isn't autistic - that the disorder doesn't exist in dogs - but the label itself was able to signal to people how they ought to behave (no eye contact, don't rush up to touch, etc.).

 

Mary

[pansmom]

Alaska, as for the whispering and softly giving commands, I already do this. I'm used to doing it with children--it's a trick--when a child cries, if you whisper sometimes they will stop crying just to hear what you're saying. Also it's calming. I do try to talk to her in as calming and quiet a way as possible most of the time. When we bike I whisper the commands "left" and "right" and "straight" and "stop" now and she is very responsive. She loves it. This barking incident with the growl was after a twenty minute series of her barking, me listening and looking around, not hearing anything, and then asking her to hush. My paying attention to the behavior worked the first few times. But she kept getting more and more restless. Also, regarding shutting down the extra stimuli, although Pan loves the car (it's a safe place somehow), I have put shades over all the front windows. Now what she seems to do is bark at the noises alone and get frustrated that she can't see them. But it does seem to make her not as territorial. Which makes her take longer to get over threshold because she can't see the source most of the time, so the shades do help keep the barking manageable.

 

Soloriver, because of the shades I can't look out the window anymore to see what she's barking at - I used to do that - but honestly it never calmed her down (once I had to move closer to her to look outside and she thought I was threatening her and BIT ME! thank you redirect). Still, I do try to listen to her when she barks. For example, two times yesterday she started the crazy barking and what had happened was the front door, which I hadn't locked, had fallen open in the front room. In those examples I was able to hear the noise that started her bark and follow her into the front room and thank her and shut the door.

 

I think next time I will make a bigger show of looking around first, then shrugging and saying "It's nothing, thank you." She knows the "it's nothing" cue. Or I might try the hot dog thing but I am so busy during the week it's not possible, also not sure how to cue the barks.

[Northof49]

Hmmm -- treats are rewarding, and you give him a bunch of them when he barks. . . .

 

How would you do it differently if you were trying to reward him for barking?

 

It is not rewarding for barking - I know it sounds like it.

 

The best example of this type of thing I can give is a couple that had a GSP that barked it's head off like crazy whenever the husband left for work. The dog would start barking as soon as the husband was getting ready to go out the dog and continue for several minutes after that.The wife started to give the dog a food treat - the dog can't bark and chew at the same time, so there was a couple of seconds of silence while he ate the treat.

 

She kept repeating this. The next day they did the same thing, and the time between barks was a little longer. The third day the dog started to bark again, but then looked to the wife for a treat and bark only a couple of times. By the 5th day, when the husband was getting ready to go to work, the dog went to find the wife in order to get his food reward. Instead of being stressed about the husband leaving, the husband,s leaving triggered a different behaviour in the dog - I get a treat from mom when dad leaves. They kept that routine up for a oouple of weeks, and has never had a problem since. It's counter-conditioning.

 

My friend's dog was scared of the noise of her hair dryer and the blender, and her dog would whine, and shake and be terribley stressed. The dog was fanatical about the tennis ball, so I had her start to throw the tennis ball for her dog. When she came back with the ball my friend turned the hair dryer off so the dog would come right up to her to give her the ball. Within a few days she didn't have to turn the hair dryer or blender off, and at the end of two weeks, as soon as the dog saw/heard either appliance she ran to get her tennis ball to play fetch. The dog was not being rewarded for being scared. She was being counter-conditioned to have a different response to those appliances.

[Root Beer]

Hmmm -- treats are rewarding, and you give him a bunch of them when he barks. . . .

 

How would you do it differently if you were trying to reward him for barking?

 

Have you ever tried rewarding a dog for barking to try to get him or her to bark again? If so, I'd be very interested in what results did you got?

 

I actually have tried it with several dogs and I've found that that it's one peculiar thing I can't get a dog to do by using food rewards to reinforce. Every time I try to reward barking with food or a toy to try to get the dog to bark on cue, the dog quits barking and simply will not bark anymore.

 

I think that if one wanted to teach a dog to bark on cue by reinforcing barking, it might be effective to present the trigger that caused the dog to bark as the reinforcement. That's what I would try if I wanted to reward barking.

[Caroline Reichard]

Have you ever tried rewarding a dog for barking to try to get him or her to bark again? If so, I'd be very interested in what results did you got?

 

I have seen and trained dozens of dogs to bark using bait back in my USAR days: a bark alert is the only alert recognized by FEMA, and so all the dogs needed to do it. I prefered using toys, but using food was just as easy.

 

Also, on Eileen's point about North of 49's de-barking training:

(Eileen Stein @ Apr 30 2009, 04:19 AM)

Hmmm -- treats are rewarding, and you give him a bunch of them when he barks. . . .

 

How would you do it differently if you were trying to reward him for barking?

 

 

It is not rewarding for barking - I know it sounds like it.

 

THe best example of this type of thing I can give is a couple that had a GSP that barked it's head off like crazy whenever the husband left for work.

 

I would think that you might want to emphasize that you ought to give the dog the food before the trigger that would start it barking, not interrupting its barking to reward it. At least, that is what I would do if I wanted to cure that problem that way.

[Root Beer]

I have seen and trained dozens of dogs to bark using bait back in my USAR days: a bark alert is the only alert recognized by FEMA, and so all the dogs needed to do it. I prefered using toys, but using food was just as easy.

 

What did you do if the dog simply stopped barking after being rewarded? Did you use something to trigger more barking in some way?

[Caroline Reichard]

What did you do if the dog simply stopped barking after being rewarded? Did you use something to trigger more barking in some way?

 

 

I have gone to get another cup of coffee because obviously I am under-caffeinated. I don't think I understand the question. It isn't any different than training a pet dog to bark, at least in it's earliest stages. The difference is that the cue for barking ultimately will be living human scent rising from the rubble rather than a person saying "Speak, Fifi!" The first step is to get the dog to bark for the toy or food. Give them some food. Show them some more food that you don't give to them. Hide the food in your fist and put your fist to your chest. Do stuff that makes a dog bark. When they give you a bark, give them the food. Repeat, gradually lengthening out the amount of barking they need to do to get the toy/treat until they are barking like maniacs. Putting it on cue is the easiest thing in the world: say "speak" while they are barking. After you do that for a while, say "speak" before they are barking; soon they will bark when you say "speak." Or, if you were doing this for SAR, you wouldn't cue the dog to bark when you said "speak" but instead would fit the bark into training an alert and, finally, into search.

 

Hope this is what you were asking, though I may be misunderstanding you. Training a dog to bark on cue is about as hard as training a puppy to pee on the floor.

[Root Beer]

The first step is to get the dog to bark for the toy or food. Give them some food. Show them some more food that you don't give to them. Hide the food in your fist and put your fist to your chest. Do stuff that makes a dog bark.

 

So, you do trigger the barking in some way. You don't just wait until the dog is barking at something and then reward it and wait (without any cues or movement or feedback from you) for the dog to bark again before rewarding. That's when I find that giving the reward actually causes the barking to stop, not continue.

 

Say, for example, my dog barked because I was hiding a toy and I rewarded that bark with food and just waited. I have, in all the times I've tried this, ended up with a dog staring holes through my head, completely silent.

 

But if I were to present the initial trigger (the toy), then I might be able to get the dog to bark again, especially if I were playful with it. That's what I meant above about presenting the trigger as part of the reinforcement. (IOW - "do stuff that makes a dog bark")

 

Hope this is what you were asking, though I may be misunderstanding you. Training a dog to bark on cue is about as hard as training a puppy to pee on the floor.

 

Yes, that bit was - about the initial stages of getting the dog to bark.

[Caroline Reichard]

I have, in all the times I've tried this, ended up with a dog staring holes through my head, completely silent.

 

But if I were to present the initial trigger (the toy), then I might be able to get the dog to bark again, especially if I were playful with it. That's what I meant above about presenting the trigger as part of the reinforcement. (IOW - "do stuff that makes a dog bark")

 

If you would like to see masters of this at work, go to a good Schutzhund club and watch them do the agitation work. I joined a local club with my old Lucy to build her bark alert, and her idea of real fun quickly became barking and biting the Bad Man. It was all prey drive for her, of course, but I really learned a lot from watching how the trainers understood and manipulated dogs' prey and defence drives.

[Eileen Stein]

The best example of this type of thing I can give is a couple that had a GSP that barked it's head off like crazy whenever the husband left for work. The dog would start barking as soon as the husband was getting ready to go out the dog and continue for several minutes after that.The wife started to give the dog a food treat - the dog can't bark and chew at the same time, so there was a couple of seconds of silence while he ate the treat.

 

A dog can't bite a person and chew at the same time either, so maybe Pan should just be treated whenever she bites? Problem solved?

 

She kept repeating this. The next day they did the same thing, and the time between barks was a little longer. The third day the dog started to bark again, but then looked to the wife for a treat and bark only a couple of times. By the 5th day, when the husband was getting ready to go to work, the dog went to find the wife in order to get his food reward. Instead of being stressed about the husband leaving, the husband,s leaving triggered a different behaviour in the dog - I get a treat from mom when dad leaves. They kept that routine up for a oouple of weeks, and has never had a problem since. It's counter-conditioning.

 

It seems to me that a smart dog would be just as likely to associate his barking and the treat as to associate the husband's leaving with the treat. And if the triggers that set him barking were many and varied, he would be more likely to make the association between his barking and the treat, because that's the consistent factor in each case. But if it works for you, it's fine with me.

 

My friend's dog was scared of the noise of her hair dryer and the blender, and her dog would whine, and shake and be terribley stressed. The dog was fanatical about the tennis ball, so I had her start to throw the tennis ball for her dog. When she came back with the ball my friend turned the hair dryer off so the dog would come right up to her to give her the ball. Within a few days she didn't have to turn the hair dryer or blender off, and at the end of two weeks, as soon as the dog saw/heard either appliance she ran to get her tennis ball to play fetch. The dog was not being rewarded for being scared. She was being counter-conditioned to have a different response to those appliances.

 

Oh, I agree that you can't reinforce an emotion like fear with a reward. That's why I've always thought it was nonsense when people say you shouldn't comfort or reassure a scared dog because you're rewarding the fear. You're not, and you're not rewarding the behavioral results of the fear either, because the dog's trembling, panting, etc. are involuntary -- he isn't consciously doing them. I wouldn't hesitate to distract/counter-condition a scared dog with a treat or toy. And when I see tension developing between my two male dogs I will sometimes call them to the kitchen counter and give treats to both of them. That's not rewarding the tension -- it's defusing it, and making it easier to defuse the next time they start to get prickly with one another. But I wouldn't give them a treat when they were fighting or had just fought.

[Northof49]

A dog can't bite a person and chew at the same time either, so maybe Pan should just be treated whenever she bites? Problem solved?

It seems to me that a smart dog would be just as likely to associate his barking and the treat as to associate the husband's leaving with the treat. And if the triggers that set him barking were many and varied, he would be more likely to make the association between his barking and the treat, because that's the consistent factor in each case. But if it works for you, it's fine with me.

 

Pan's agreessive issues are something totally different and you work with that differently. You can't lump all behaviour problems into one barrel and use one method of behaviour modification for everything.

 

It's worked on thousands and thousands of dogs and used by hundreds of people that work with behavioural issues with dogs. I guess a person has to understsand the principles of counterconditioning/classical conditioning and to understand how it works. This training has been proven time and time again by people like Dr. Kaven Overall, Dr. Nicholas Dodman, Jean Donaldson, and so on.

[SoloRiver]

The way that the twain shall meet here is that when anxious dogs do things like bark, snarl, or growl, those actions may very well be as involuntary as actions that we normally associate with fear. The difference is only that we humans consider "fearful" responses to be socially sanctioned, while "aggressive" responses are verboten. But fight and flight are two sides of the same coin.

 

A dog faced with a (perceived) threat may react by either withdrawing or by defensively aggressing, and to a large degree that reaction is mediated by instinct, not personal choice. What we hope to do is eventually teach them to keep their shit together enough so that they CAN make a choice (i.e., not to be aggressive). But in many ways, anxious dogs are like wild animals and we cannot assume that they will react like normal dogs because the part of their brain that is responding in these situations is not the part of the brain that co-evolved with humans and made dogs into the really nifty companions that they are.

 

Sometimes dogs bark because they like to hear themselves bark. Some dogs think barking is fun. Other dogs bark because a trigger gets flipped and they get stuck in this defensive mode yelling "Intruder! Intruder! Intruder!" The second situation dogs are not having fun. Anyone seeing Solo in the car would immediately recognize that he considers a stranger outside the car to be a serious threat, not a neat excuse to hear himself bark -- his ears are back, his pupils are dilated, he is crouched and defensive. Introducing food rewards into the first situation might not get you anywhere, but in the second situation they may function much like Eileen's defusing treats when her males start posturing at each other.

 

(That said, Solo in the car is so charged up and wigged out that treats are invisible to him, so they are useless.)

 

I don't know if I would toss treats to make my dogs stop barking in the contexts in which they bark, but I can see how it would work in some situations. I can also see how it could be totally counterproductive.

[Caroline Reichard]

[bc4ever]

[pansmom]

As for the panicked barking, I just tried throwing treats on the floor. It totally defused the situation (she is calmly searching for the ones that went under the counter and behind the trash now). Counterconditioning has worked wonders with Pan before - after only a couple of repetitions for each noise, remember the cat and the stove? - so it could possibly work. The danger here is about 50% of the time she does this frenzied kind of bark I can't hear whatever sound provoked it, so I have no idea what I'm counterconditioning to. However, I'm going to try it - very cautiously - and see if it makes the panicked barking more or less frequent. Regular barking will not be rewarded in this manner. I'll let y'all know how it goes. Sniffing REALLY does calm her down. And if she starts to anticipate food from whatever these noises are I know they will stop setting her off.

 

More requests for advice oh knowledgeable ones:

 

(1) I bought some DAP spray - at PetSmart, it's hidden pretty well but they've got it, and not only that if you save the receipt they will TAKE IT BACK if it doesn't work - so how does it work? What should I do with it? People who have had success, hints? suggestions? thoughts? I tried just spraying it on the towel that she lays on by my desk - no real difference in behavior. Need more input.

 

(2) Resource guarding incident yesterday night with her dinner, during a trading game. I'm going to stop with the trading games until I see a BCVB (board certified veterinary behaviorist). Maybe I'm not doing them right?

 

(3) As for BCVBs, I now have three options: highly recommended BCVB (Dr. Juarbe-Diaz) but must wait until June 4 to see her and drive 12 hours to Orlando (I've corresponded with JD in email and REALLY like her but seeing her would require waiting until AFTER my husband and I go on vacation and I'd really rather see someone sooner rather than later); highly recommended BCVB (Dr. Crowell-Davis at the University of Georgia veterinary hospital) who can see us as early as May 12 (BEFORE our trip) but requires that we drive 11 hours to Athens Georgia; and the closest BCVB only 3.5 hours away can see Pan May 11 (before our trip) in Sugarlands, Texas (Dr. Lore Haug).

 

I'm tempted to go to Texas, even though this person was not mentioned by the BCVB who was recommending the best BCVBs in this part of the country for me, because, one, this person is one of the only 50 board-certified veterinary behaviorists in the country and, two, I could actually take Pan BACK there if need be for a checkup - 2 additional hours + phone consults and emails etc are included in the original appointment price. Also Dr. Haug works primarily with aggressive dogs and there is a story about a dog named Kelly who sounds VERY VERY similar to Pan on her web page. I know, I know, testimonials are unscientific, but it sounds soooo promising. Anyway the thing is, I feel I'm probably not knowledgeable enough to judge any of their credentials myself. If anyone wants to send me private messages about this quandary with recommendations I'd welcome it - please don't criticize any of these three wonderful doctors in this thread, I think they all probably do great work - but if anyone has strong feelings about why we should see one of these doctors versus another please PM me!

 

Note: as I was typing this post, there was another barking incident... I responded to it, like the first, by tossing the tiny training reward treats I keep at my desk (Pet Botanics brand) across the floor. The first time like I mentioned above she stopped barking immediately. Then she went into the back of the house to go back where she was before for a while but stayed silent. She didn't start barking again until about fifteen minutes later in the kitchen, and I did the same thing, tossing a few tiny treats across the floor. Since then the panicked barking hasn't repeated, despite the sounds of other dogs outside barking (I can hear them). She has started doing this muffled sort of controlled thing... a kind of "woof" into her hand as she is lying down, like a subdued announcement... and shredding her foxy toy to smithereens (have I ever mentioned how much she loves to shred toys and groom herself? Also she scratches... totally nervous personality obviously...) And now she has switched from shredding foxy (yeah, foxy's done, or at least that part of foxy, which I believe was once foxy's paw) to chewing on bone (her nylabone). We are working on redirecting cat anxiety on toys so I think this may be the same thing happening with the barks outside.

[urge to herd]

(1) I bought some DAP spray - how does it work? What should I do with it? People who have had success, hints? suggestions? thoughts? I tried just spraying it on the towel that she lays on by my desk - no real difference in behavior. Need more input.

 

 

(3) As for BCVBs, I now have three options: highly recommended BCVB (Dr. Juarbe-Diaz) but must wait until June 4 to see her and drive 12 hours to Orlando (I've corresponded with JD in email and REALLY like her but seeing her would require waiting until AFTER my husband and I go on vacation and I'd really rather see someone sooner rather than later); highly recommended BCVB (Dr. Crowell-Davis at the University of Georgia veterinary hospital) who can see us as early as May 12 (BEFORE our trip) but requires that we drive 11 hours to Athens Georgia; and the closest BCVB only 3.5 hours away can see Pan May 11 (before our trip) in Sugarlands, Texas (Dr. Lore Haug).

 

I'm tempted to go to Texas, even though this person was not mentioned by the BCVB who was recommending the best BCVBs in this part of the country for me, because, one, this person is one of the only 50 board-certified veterinary behaviorists in the country and, two, I could actually take Pan BACK there if need be for a checkup - 2 additional hours + phone consults and emails etc are included in the original appointment price. Also Dr. Haug works primarily with aggressive dogs and there is a story about a dog named Kelly who sounds VERY VERY similar to Pan on her web page. I know, I know, testimonials are unscientific, but it sounds soooo promising. Anyway the thing is, I feel I'm probably not knowledgeable enough to judge any of their credentials myself. If anyone wants to send me private messages about this quandary with recommendations I'd welcome it - please don't criticize any of these three wonderful doctors in this thread, I think they all probably do great work - but if anyone has strong feelings about why we should see one of these doctors versus another please PM me!

 

The DAP spray needs some repeated exposure, like a few weeks of 1x/daily sprays in the areas where the dog spends the most time. I have to tell you DAP did nothing for Shoshone, but the feline version, Feliway, made a huge difference for both Duke and Angel. In fact, in might not be a bad idea to get some Feliway going for your kitties, might keep them a bit calmer.

 

I don't know anything directly about Lore Haug, but she used to post on an email list I was on for aggressive dogs, and I was impressed with her replies to difficult situation. In your shoes, I'd be tempted to take the closest option, simply because it would be soooo much easier to go for another in person visit.

 

Another idea, get a video camera if you don't already have one, and see if you can capture some of Pan's outbursts, and even some of her normal around the house interacting with you and DH. Wherever you choose to go, going with some visible record of Pan in her home situation would be very helpful.

 

Ruth

[pansmom]

Also, um, has anyone ever noticed the DAP making a dog violent?

 

The first time I sprayed it in the kitchen it made no difference in Pan's behavior immediately but about fifteen minutes later she attacked Nyxie.

 

Tonight I tried again spraying it on her towel (not while she was on it) but as soon as she approached the area she immediately left it and went and attacked Nyxie again. And when I told her no, she redirected and growled at me and nipped my hand. The only other times I have seen her act this way is if she smells strange new dog on my clothes.

 

Does DAP = strange new dog???

 

ETA: Maybe it's the alcohol smell that's bugging her (she's been approaching it within a half a minute of me spraying it)? Or the act of her watching me spray it, itself?

I am so frustrated. No wait I think a better word is disgusted.