Terrible Aggression - at my wit's end, please help!

[pansmom]

Hey Pansmom,

Please check out my threads regarding Nellie's thyroid issues. She is dog aggressive and noise phobic. She tested on the low end of normal for several years and the vet did not recommend treatment. Last fall, I asked if we could go ahead and treat anyway and see if it made a difference. She has been on the thyroid treatment for several months and it has made a tremendous difference in her attitude, aggression and even her phobias. So consider asking your vet if it would be worth treating her with Thyroxine just to see how well she responds - many dogs and people may need to be in the mid to high range of "normal" to function well.

 

I can't seem to make the threads embed but the urls are here:

http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.p...=thyroid+nellie

http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.p...=thyroid+nellie

 

Congratulations on seeing some of your hardwork pay off!

Lisa

 

Does anyone else second this?

Pan was 1.66, 1.7-4 was normal according to the test.

See below.

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

She needs you to be consistent that's for sure. I'd say, on top of all the stuff you are doing with her she needs to learn some self control and to be calm, big time. That is where a book like Control Unleashed would come in handy or a copy of Dr. Overall's "Protocol for Relaxation" (which you may be able to find with a simple google search). That may help you a lot. I can't imagine a spoiled kid with ADHD. That would be fun.

As for the broom thing, well, I think I agree with your husband. Just don't let her do stuff like that. Daisy tries it with the vacuum all the time. It's really irritating. I know she does it out of fear. But, if she tries to attack it while I am vacuuming, I say "Leave-it" in a stern tone and look at her with my "no nonsense" look and she usually stops. If not, she gets put on her leash and has to sit on the couch with my bf. She does not like that very much, so she listens. Most stuff like that there are only two options and she knows it. You either listen or I ruin all your fun. She catches on pretty quick.

[Lenajo]

For a Border Collie that reading, with her case history, is pretty much absolutely *yes, treat*. You can email Dr Dodds at hemopet if you need information for your vet.

[bcnewe2]

Yes I agree. it's the same thing I'm working with one of my older dogs. She tested low normal but has all the symptoms of an issue. I moved before I could get anything done but we're working on a new vet here. The meds. don't hurt them even if they don't help. If it works then you're ahead of the game. If you see no improvement, then I'd probably wean her back off.

I know several people with dogs who have the same issues (not the same symptoms but other symptoms that would say thyroid issues) and they tried meds. Most of them are still on them as they saw improvements. It's def. something I'd be talking to your vet about. couldn't hurt. might really help. One friend's vet didn't even test. By looking at the dogs, he decided to try the meds. and both the overweight dogs lost wieght without changing their diets. These were senior dogs but still, makes me think it's not to dangerous to try it.

[bcnewe2]

As for the broom thing, well, I think I agree with your husband. Just don't let her do stuff like that. Daisy tries it with the vacuum all the time. It's really irritating. I know she does it out of fear

 

I have a vacuum/broom attacker, it's not fear for her. It's movement and prey action. she gets a bop on the head with the broom if she tries. It was probaly my fault for thinking it was cute as a puppy, not so cute when they're all grown up and you can't the the sweeping done! Why or how do you think it's fear? just curious...

[Northof49]

Does anyone else second this?

Pan was 1.66, 1.7-4 was normal according to the test.

See below.

 

 

Then she is actually BELOW the normal range. How stressed was she when the blood was drawn.

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

I have a vacuum/broom attacker, it's not fear for her. It's movement and prey action. she gets a bop on the head with the broom if she tries. It was probaly my fault for thinking it was cute as a puppy, not so cute when they're all grown up and you can't the the sweeping done! Why or how do you think it's fear? just curious...

She is naturally a fearful dog with noise sensitivities. She's fine but cautious with it when it's off, so it's the noise I think. She used to hide from it when she was younger, plus her body actions make me think fear. She doesn't come close to it, but keeps her body back and extends her neck to nip at it as she would if she were taking treats from a stranger. It could have some prey drive built into it, but I mostly see hesitant body language from her.

[pansmom]

For a Border Collie that reading, with her case history, is pretty much absolutely *yes, treat*. You can email Dr Dodds at hemopet if you need information for your vet.

 

What do you mean by that? "*yes, treat*"?

ETA: P.S. My vet already called me today to tell me her reading was normal. And to call after five if I had any questions. I didn't call today...

[pansmom]

Then she is actually BELOW the normal range. How stressed was she when the blood was drawn.

 

Wait, look at the test closer, I'm not sure how to read it. The "reference range" according to the test up top beside Pan's reading of 1.66 is 0.8-3.8. And there is a down arrow beside it indicating hers is low but beside the arrow, it says "OK." And then at the bottom of the page it says "Adolescent Optimal Levels" are 1.7-4. And below that the note to my vet from Dr. Dodds says: "Thyroid levels are adequate here despite clinical signs, although T4 could be higher." I wrote a detailed note to Dr. Dodd explaining her symptoms with the form - and yet they're still not saying anything about trying medication - I guess maybe should I write them back and ask?

 

How stressed was she? Well I had to put the muzzle on her before we picked her up and put her on top of the counter, because I wanted to be sure the situation wouldn't go bad. She sat quietly for me to put the muzzle on her and didn't growl or make a sound during the test, but during the blood drawing I was holding her down with my hands around her like the vet told me to. The whole time I was sweet talking her like crazy. "Good monster, thatta girl, what a good girl, yes ma'am" etc etc. But I imagine she was kind of stressed. She tried to sit up once. She really doesn't like being confined. The next day was the day she growled at me(in the predictable yet difficult for me to describe snout-holding+petting simultaneous fashion).

[pansmom]

She needs you to be consistent that's for sure. I'd say, on top of all the stuff you are doing with her she needs to learn some self control and to be calm, big time. That is where a book like Control Unleashed would come in handy or a copy of Dr. Overall's "Protocol for Relaxation" (which you may be able to find with a simple google search).

 

I just started reading "Protocol for Relaxation..." It's long. I'm going to email it to myself at work and print it to work on this weekend. I think I've had enough today. A lot of it we've done before, it's how we got her to learn she needed to spend most of the time in the house lying down and being calm... something similar to that with NILIF+doggie zen+click to calm. But I haven't done it exactly like this. Thanks for the hint.

 

That may help you a lot. I can't imagine a spoiled kid with ADHD. That would be fun.

 

Yeah it's my fault. I will admit as a puppy she learned how to manipulate me before I realized she could. I've been onto her for months now but she still occasionally tries to get her way by being assertive. (It took me forever just to teach her not to jump up on me - with the dramatic shun.) Before I got her I was used to cats. Cats you can spoil rotten... Not so with dogs. I was just telling my husband last night this is probably EXCELLENT practice.

 

As for the broom thing, well, I think I agree with your husband. Just don't let her do stuff like that. Daisy tries it with the vacuum all the time. It's really irritating. I know she does it out of fear. But, if she tries to attack it while I am vacuuming, I say "Leave-it" in a stern tone and look at her with my "no nonsense" look and she usually stops. If not, she gets put on her leash and has to sit on the couch with my bf. She does not like that very much, so she listens. Most stuff like that there are only two options and she knows it. You either listen or I ruin all your fun. She catches on pretty quick.

 

I will try being sterner next time. I was just so surprised I kind of just stood there with the broom looking dumb. And then I think I told her no and pushed her back kind of halfheartedly with the broom, but it was probably a somewhat uncertain no as my memory of the situation is a blur, which tends to happen to me when I am feeling strong emotions. I think after that I was just standing there thinking oh my gosh you're kidding me no and then my husband heard the growls and came in and saved the day, taking the broom and saying "don't let her do that!" My hero.

[bcnewe2]

Just an idea, My fear dog can not stand to be contained, I can if I have to but to keep her calm my vet usually does things with her on the floor and I tuck her head under my arm pit where she feels like if she can't see the bad thing she's safer.

I know that's not possible for Pan at the moment but it's one of those management tools that you can put in your head for later.

It's not really the vet and what's going on, it's the worry of anything out of her little box of norm. So her tucking her head under my arm is her safe place. It's a fav thing she does when I pet her or she's looking for love at home.

[beachdogz]

Hi Pansmom:

 

#1 - I am in agreement with "treat anyway" re the thyroid. I can't imagine it would hurt (?) and most breeders will tell you that tests are not necessarily conclusive. Sometimes you've got to think outside the box.

 

#2 - I'm gonna go out on a limb here. It is very hard to diagnose anything you don't see with your eyes. Just reading about your last incident does not necessarily tell the whole story. Like, maybe she was not guarding her territory with her napkin. Maybe she was just "full of it" and when she had to quit playing with the cat, she just had a lot more pent up energy, and went to shred the napkin. Then, when the broom moved, it was yet another way to release it by chasing and growling at it. I'm not saying that is what it is...just that it could be another scenario. Darn these dogs not being able to talk and let us know what is going on! Not to say that you shouldn't correct her...just that those incidents alone do not make me fear that you've totally lost everything you've gained. This is how training will go. You'll take three steps forward, and then go backward a step....then two steps forward and backwards a step. In learning, regression is normal and is always a factor.

 

Now...here I go climbing out on that limb: I'm gonna take a stab and say that at this point you (and we) are over-analyzing everything she does and that in doing that, your state of mind is conveying unsureness and and confusion to her. I think you should correct as you see fit (voice, etc...doesn't have to be harsh) and move on with it. No long, drawn out stuff. I also think that maybe the advice I got when I had teenagers may also apply here in that you may have to pick your battles. That is, not that you should ignore bad behavior, but don't sweat the small stuff and concentrate more on the big stuff.

 

#3 - I am still having my glass of wine at 9:00 EST. I think the salute was to you and your husband and your diligence in working out this problem. I don't think the small backslides lessen the earlier accomplishments. So, here's to you, pansmom! Keep up the good work.

 

And thank you for giving me an excuse to sit down, relax and have a glass of wine!

[Eileen Stein]

>

 

What do you mean by that? "*yes, treat*"?

 

She means treat for low thyroid. Why not write to Dr. Dodds and ask if she would support treatment? If she says yes, get a brief statement in writing for your vet.

 

Ah, those five golden words, "Don't let her do that," which sum up so much of dog training. So simple, so obvious, and so often hard to do. The late Vicki Hearne once told me a funny story about an occasion when she was sitting on a Hollywood backlot waiting to interview an elephant trainer. As she was watching him work and waiting for him to finish up, he became so engrossed in working with one elephant that the other elephant he was ignoring wandered down the alley to Vicki and began running his trunk over her hair. As she sat there frozen with fear, the trainer suddenly turned around, saw what was happening, and hollered, "Don't let him do that!"

 

Keep up the good work. I'll be drinking to you, your husband and Pan in less than two hours.

[pansmom]

She means treat for low thyroid. Why not write to Dr. Dodds and ask if she would support treatment? If she says yes, get a brief statement in writing for your vet.

 

Ah, those five golden words, "Don't let her do that," which sum up so much of dog training. So simple, so obvious, and so often hard to do. The late Vicki Hearne once told me a funny story about an occasion when she was sitting on a Hollywood backlot waiting to interview an elephant trainer. As she was watching him work and waiting for him to finish up, he became so engrossed in working with one elephant that the other elephant he was ignoring wandered down the alley to Vicki and began running his trunk over her hair. As she sat there frozen with fear, the trainer suddenly turned around, saw what was happening, and hollered, "Don't let him do that!"

 

Keep up the good work. I'll be drinking to you, your husband and Pan in less than two hours.

 

Hilarious on the elephant story! I think I have it bad. What about a spoiled ADHD ELEPHANT?

 

And gosh, my head IS in the clouds today. I was thinking you know like "click, treat" as in training protocol. Got it.

 

Pan is much calmer now. I swear the Quiet Moments work. There's such a difference in the first few hours after she takes one (starting about thirty minutes after she eats one). That's why I want to try SSRIs or TCAs (Quiet Moments = Tryptophan which becomes serotonin in dogs). Now she's waiting for dinner (which she gets after my dinner) by lying around the kitchen watching me cook (tofu stir fry, yum!) in various locales. She just changed her spot, I presume to see if one will work better than the other. Now she's falling asleep by my desk. Y'all enjoy your wine!

[urge to herd]

Hi Pansmom:

 

#2 This is how training will go. You'll take three steps forward, and then go backward a step....then two steps forward and backwards a step.

 

#3 - I am still having my glass of wine at 9:00 EST. I think the salute was to you and your husband and your diligence in working out this problem. I don't think the small backslides lessen the earlier accomplishments. So, here's to you, pansmom! Keep up the good work.

 

And thank you for giving me an excuse to sit down, relax and have a glass of wine!

 

Re:#2 above, there's the ever popular 2.76 steps to the right, then a step counterclockwise if it's Friday, then . . . Well, you get the picture.

 

Re:#3 above, I'm looking forward to my glass of inexpensive yet bold red wine myself at 6 pm PST. I tell you, I've gotten so much help and support from the BC boards I'm ecstatic to be of any service to another member.

 

Ruth

[pansmom]

Re:#2 above, there's the ever popular 2.76 steps to the right, then a step counterclockwise if it's Friday, then . . . Well, you get the picture.

 

Re:#3 above, I'm looking forward to my glass of inexpensive yet bold red wine myself at 6 pm PST. I tell you, I've gotten so much help and support from the BC boards I'm ecstatic to be of any service to another member.

 

Ruth

 

OK, that's it, I'm having a glass myself. Thanks to you all. I really am appreciative. It takes a village to raise a BC.

[beachdogz]

OK, that's it, I'm having a glass myself. Thanks to you all. I really am appreciative. It takes a village to raise a BC.

 

Quite a nice respite for the evening....that glass of wine.

 

I'd like to share my newest story with you. I adopted my BC back in July (close to 10 months ago). I have had many dogs in my life (mostly GSDs), have an extensive training/instructing background (over 25 years), but this is my very first Border Collie. And oh, has she taught me a lot. She came with her own issues (some adjustment related, some not) and I think the one thing I've learned with this breed (and I'm pretty sure this is breed related) is that you just can't rush anything with them. It takes time; lots of time....and patience. One of those issues was getting her toenails cut..her owner told me she hated it and wouldn't tolerate it.

 

Last night was the first night we actually cut a toenail! You read that right: A toenail (not a foot or all of them...just ONE TOENAIL.) (I used the old peanut butter on a plate trick) Happy dance!!! It has taken 10 months to get to that point. Now, yes, we could have muzzled her, held her down, and did the deed. But I chose not to take that route. I wanted to build trust and I want her to be totally mine and allow me to do it. Maybe that is a goal I will never reach. But I have always said that when I can do her nails, she'll truly be mine.

 

So tonight, we tried it again. Well, she jumped up and started on the peanut butter...but hopped off when she figured out what I was doing (the clippers were a dead give-away.) She kept coming back, but jumping off when I reached for her paw. It was a little disappointing...but...she never once growled at me or tried to bite me (which I believe was an issue in her old home.) She didn't even want her paws touched when she came here, but she is getting sooo much better at that, and tonight she let me touch them, even though she scattered when the clippers came near.

 

So my point is: your problem will probably take a lot of time with a lot of ups and down. Embrace the good things and work patiently through the bad. And maybe occasionally treat yourself to a glass of wine!

[JohnLloydJones]

Y'all enjoy your wine!

 

Well, I was a bit on the late side, as we were driving home from the dog park at six, but the thought was there when I was finally home and filled the glass.

[Caroline Reichard]

Hi Pansmom,

 

I wanted to offer two observations. The first is about the blood draw:

 

How stressed was she? Well I had to put the muzzle on her before we picked her up and put her on top of the counter, because I wanted to be sure the situation wouldn't go bad. She sat quietly for me to put the muzzle on her and didn't growl or make a sound during the test, but during the blood drawing I was holding her down with my hands around her like the vet told me to. The whole time I was sweet talking her like crazy. "Good monster, thatta girl, what a good girl, yes ma'am" etc etc. But I imagine she was kind of stressed. She tried to sit up once. She really doesn't like being confined. The next day was the day she growled at me(in the predictable yet difficult for me to describe snout-holding+petting simultaneous fashion).

 

You don't say if Pan was worried or not, but you do tell us that you were plenty stressed. I suspect that once things got underway she thought the vet was going to cut her head off. Your worries will transmit to your dog: they can do so over hundeds of yards of open farmland when she is fetching sheep and will surely do so in the exam room. If Pan wasn't afraid before the muzzle and sweet talk, you can bet that she was once this started. This kind of thing will create the situation that you want to avoid. You must model the attitude that you want the dog to have, and if you aren't calm, then she will never be. (This is also true for the children in the future, BTW. I have seen kids spoiled and coddled by their parents who have hysterics a the sight of the strawberry that their Mom wants them to eat but that they think they don't like. On the other hand, when my girl was 4 years old the neighbor's crazy dog was let into the house when we were visiting and bit her on the face. At the ER, while the 50+ sutures were sewn in around and over her eye (she will carry the scar all her life, though it has faded) she never made a peep, just let the tears slide down. I saved my hysterics for later, when I confronted the owner of the dog, and stayed calm for my girl that night.)

 

Yeah it's my fault. I will admit as a puppy she learned how to manipulate me before I realized she could. I've been onto her for months now but she still occasionally tries to get her way by being assertive. (It took me forever just to teach her not to jump up on me - with the dramatic shun.) I will try being sterner next time. I was just so surprised I kind of just stood there with the broom looking dumb. And then I think I told her no and pushed her back kind of halfheartedly with the broom, but it was probably a somewhat uncertain no as my memory of the situation is a blur, which tends to happen to me when I am feeling strong emotions. I think after that I was just standing there thinking oh my gosh you're kidding me no and then my husband heard the growls and came in and saved the day, taking the broom and saying "don't let her do that!" My hero.

 

For me, you have written worlds here about one of the reasons (probably not the only reason, but one of the reasons) that you are having problems now. I'd recommend listening to your husband and consider modeling some of his behavior. It's true that he is also having problems with Pan, but borrowing some of his more pragmatic and straigtforward approach might help you and Pan make more sense to each other.

 

As I read over this post before pushing the "add reply" button, I wanted to add one thing more. I think that you should describe your feelings very clearly to whatever bahaviorist/vet you may choose to have help you deal with this problem. It is understandable that you are afraid of Pam and panic when she growls at you, but you should make sure that the specialist knows this, as it could affect the recommendations for treatment.

[pansmom]

For me, you have written worlds here about one of the reasons (probably not the only reason, but one of the reasons) that you are having problems now. I'd recommend listening to your husband and consider modeling some of his behavior. It's true that he is also having problems with Pan, but borrowing some of his more pragmatic and straigtforward approach might help you and Pan make more sense to each other.

 

As I read over this post before pushing the "add reply" button, I wanted to add one thing more. I think that you should describe your feelings very clearly to whatever bahaviorist/vet you may choose to have help you deal with this problem. It is understandable that you are afraid of Pam and panic when she growls at you, but you should make sure that the specialist knows this, as it could affect the recommendations for treatment.

 

I didn't panic, with the broom thing, I just was surprised and trying to figure out what to do. There was no danger for me, she was down on the floor, I had the broom, I've been in lots worse situations with her than that. And in general when she bites I'm not scared anymore. My husband was surprised at how calm I could remain the last time she bit (a month ago--he was actually present for that, and that is when he first started saying maybe we needed to PTS). I admit I was scared at first because I had never seen a dog act like that and it was scary. But by the last time she bit a month ago I was very calm and able to tell her things like "no" and "drop it" because I know her bites are superficial and just on the tips of my hands and fingers and the growl is much scarier than the actual trauma. I would describe my emotion in the broom situation above as... surprised and very disappointed. Yes I didn't know what to do for a couple seconds. But I wasn't panicking. Nor was I panicking in the vet room, though I can see how Pan would get scared from my behavior which was obviously abnormal. But the sweet talking and praising is what I do when I bathe her to get her to stay in the tub, and if my husband tries to bathe her without doing that, she will jump out or growl if he tries to restrain her. She is scared to be confined, and the only way I know how to keep her calm is to keep praising the calm while I confine her. In a situation with a child where you can say, it's going to be okay in a calm tone and the child will understand you, that makes sense, but with a dog that acts unpredictably I dont know. I mean I understand your point. In entirely new situations, model the calm. And in situations where she is acting out, verbally correct and expect compliance. But I'm pretty certain here that since her troubles started so early with territorial/nesting/resource guarding type stuff that the aggression is something that's part of her and not something we've done wrong to bring out. She has always been a highly reactive and fearful dog. Possibly if I was a pro at this, she'd be better, but there's not really any point in speculating because the only thing that can change is what we do from now on you know?

[JBlaylock]

Well, I had my beer for Pan and mom yesterday at 6:18pm on the dot - got home a little late - but I did in fact open it, raise the bottle and say "this is for Pan and Pansmom" then I slammed that bad boy a little too fast, felt a little explosive, then burped and all went well. Anyone else follow through in the toast?

[pansmom]

Well, I had my beer for Pan and mom yesterday at 6:18pm on the dot - got home a little late - but I did in fact open it, raise the bottle and say "this is for Pan and Pansmom" then I slammed that bad boy a little too fast, felt a little explosive, then burped and all went well. Anyone else follow through in the toast?

 

PAN AND PANSMOM THANK YOU!

Pan is being very sweet and licky and cuddly today.

And now for our regularly scheduled afternoon bike ride!

[pansmom]

Oh, and for those following the story: I just got the names of two great veterinary behaviorists and emailed them to try to schedule something for next week or the week after if possible. We may have to drive a bit as apparently Louisiana is the "black hole of behavior" but hopefully we'll be able to schedule something within the next couple of weeks! I'm just going to charge it and use my summer paycheck from the extra class to pay it off later. Yay!

 

And now... bicycling.

[urge to herd]

I had my delightful glass of wine at 6 pm PST on the dot, whilst watching a DVD of Battlestar Galactica, before I went on to do my evening household puttering. Loved it, and loved thinking of the progress of Pan.

 

Ruth

[pansmom]

I had my delightful glass of wine at 6 pm PST on the dot, whilst watching a DVD of Battlestar Galactica, before I went on to do my evening household puttering. Loved it, and loved thinking of the progress of Pan.

 

Ruth

 

PAN HATES BATTLESTAR GALACTICA!

(No, seriously, it's a trigger. Or at least is was, in February.

Twice she growled at our feet while we were watching it.

Maybe because we tensed up and the noise???)

But my husband and I loved it... until the ending.

Boo, BG ending... but yay for wine and the progress of Pan!