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Terrible Aggression - at my wit's end, please help!


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I didn't say take the crate away, I said claim it. You have not done that. By taking the crate away you are telling the dog it won, the crate is his, you can't beat him, so your hiding it from him. Claim it, the way I described, and he will realize you are the leader, then his agression will subside.

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I do so hope you can get a diagnosis and some help with your dogl

You are trying so hard to sort out the problem ; I wish you all the best .

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Have you talked with the behaviorist you used since the aggression came back and worsened? Perhaps he/she could offer some more advice since his/her original suggestions didn't hold up? It might be worth asking anyway, and might not cost any more money since the person already knows the dog.

 

I second the above suggestion, and I would add that you should video tape some of these situations you describe (do not get hurt in an effort to do so!) for the behaviorist to view as well.

 

Finances are a reason many dogs like this end up getting put down. It's sad, but the treatment costs money that many owners don't have. I encourage you to try - payment plans, a work agreement with the vet, something, but if you can't I know most people would understand. I know I would.

 

Some dogs are truly just not wired right. Medication can help, as can behavioral therapy. It can't cure though, and if your are not able to be safe in your own home then humane euthanasia by a vet is a sad but kind option.

 

Rehoming imo, is not a legal, moral, or ethically acceptable option in human directed aggression.

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My heart goes out to you. It sounds like you are doing everything possible to help your dog.

 

Alaska's post broke my heart but I think is right on. The muzzle and finding something you love about her each day I think can help you get through until you know what is up. Then you can make a decision from a completely informed place.

 

Since your dog is both fearful and aggressive you might want to read this very inexpensive and little book:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Cautious-Canine-Patr.../ref=pd_sim_b_2

 

I really like McDonnell's books. I find them insightful and helpful.

 

Chin up,

Flyer

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I didn't say take the crate away, I said claim it. You have not done that. By taking the crate away you are telling the dog it won, the crate is his, you can't beat him, so your hiding it from him. Claim it, the way I described, and he will realize you are the leader, then his agression will subside.

 

There are a lot of ways to "skin a cat" when it comes to dog training, but please...don't give absolutes. You have no idea what is really wrong with this dog, and putting elaborate feelings for the dog towards a crate not being available is really over the top. Imply the solution is simple...well, that borders on just plain hurtful to those of us that have dealt with it.

 

The described level of aggression is extreme, and the solution to that is rarely easy, simple, painless, or cheap.

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I can only imagine the pain you are going through. I pulled a dog for my rescue group. The shelter "forgot" to mention she likes to "grab" with her mouth. Ha! She bit! Once it was pretty bad. She really nailed my wrist good. When I got her trapped in the horse stall, and went in to put her leash on, she was all tail-waggin-so glad you came-let me lick you! Turned out she had a low thyroid. It hasn't stopped the biting of the other dogs or her lurching and biting my old muttly dog, and she still tries to bite me, but she is way, way better than she was. At least she doesn't break the skin anymore. I will have her till her days are done. I can't ever adopt her out. I won't put her to sleep because I found that over time she has learned that biting me causes trouble for her. I.E. She doesn't get what she wanted and she gets put up in her little cage with no interaction with the rest of the house. She is really a sweet girl. She is happiest when she is just getting loved on. Sharing, however, is not in her vocabulary. Biting is usually the dogs only way of saying things are just too much for me. They can't throw things or yell and this is what they do. Sometimes it is medical, sometimes it is wires crossed in their brain. With Holly, she got both. The thing I would do in the mean time, until you get some answers is to stop rewarding her behavior with petting after her "fit" is done. If she bites, she should be removed for a period of time. JMHO. Good luck to you.

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There are a lot of ways to "skin a cat" when it comes to dog training, but please...don't give absolutes. You have no idea what is really wrong with this dog, and putting elaborate feelings for the dog towards a crate not being available is really over the top. Imply the solution is simple...well, that borders on just plain hurtful to those of us that have dealt with it.

 

The described level of aggression is extreme, and the solution to that is rarely easy, simple, painless, or cheap.

 

There is nothing simple about the method I described, what you looked at and responded to was a very abriviated response to a response to what i originaly posted. The fact is, dogs are very simple, even when they have seemingly elaborate and complicated problems like this. The key problem is humans associating human thoughts and emotions to the dog, denying that it could possibly be that simple, looking for a complicated answer instead of accepting the simple truth - much like religion - saying that methods like Cesar Melan's are rough and mean, and resorting to drugs and such instead.

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Complete physical it is. We'll see what we can do. I'll make the phone calls ASAP.

 

And oh yeah, I used to get SO UPSET when she bit me or snarled or whatever. Now I'm used to it. Honestly, she's not trained to kill or anything. All she ever does is bite my hands and give me small puncture wounds. When she growls or snarls, we just spray her with the water gun and say "no ma'am." And when she bites, I calmly say "drop it," and she does. It's truly bizarre.

 

ETA: Did I mention after biting or snarling she will come over with her tail between her legs to LICK my hand? Truly bizarre. God how I wish she could talk.

 

 

I've known dogs with seizure disorders who do this...go insane, bite, etc, then actually act remorseful...or even unaware of the fact that they had done anything. It's truley heartbreaking :rolleyes: Nicholas Dodman wrote "The Dog Who Loved Too Much" (that was recommended by another poster), I read a case about this in his other book "Dogs Behaving Badly".

Again, good luck...I really hope whatever demons this girl has can be figured out, with minimal cost and minimal damage to you and your family.

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hmmm...wolves too will act extremely agressive towards their subordinate pack members, growling, snarling, biting, fighting, and then they will come back all calmly and lick the same member - not out of remorse, but because they won the battle, proved they were the leader, put the other member back in its place, and now have to go take care of it like a good pack leader.... nothing heartbreaking in that case, just the natural way they think and act, and if the subordinate wolf decides to assert himself/herself as the alpha, they get to be the agressor/licker

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God how I wish she could talk.

 

Have you thought about consulting an animal communicator? I am not kidding. Someone on these boards may be able to provide you with a good reference.

 

Also, have you considered a seizure disorder? This would be nearly impossible to diagnose with bloodwork, but a sympathetic vet might be willing to prescribe phenobarbital or potassium bromide to see if it would help. I am mindful of the expense, but I do think complete blood work and tick panel (pain as a cause?) would be worth the money.

 

I am so sorry you have done so much for this dog that apparently cannot help herself. Good luck and I hope you find the answers soon.

 

Amy

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JBlaylock,

I have to wonder, do you specialize in aggressive dogs? This discussion isn't about Cesar Milan and I don't really know his methods (don't get National Geo), so I'm not sure why you keep referring to anyone's dislike of him. Is the method you're describing something you've seen him do? I understand you're coming from some sort of dominance theory POV, but if this dog's aggression *isn't* dominance based, then the solutions you are suggesting could at best do no good and at worst serve only to escalate the aggression. Believe me, there are dogs out there who would interpret what you describe as an *escalation* of whatever issue is at hand and so in turn escalate their own response to it.

 

As others here have said it's entirely possible that the dog has a screw lose. It happens. While I'm not necessarily in the touchy-feely school of dog training, I do advocate ruling out physical issues for any dog (or any other animal, for that matter) with behavior problems before resorting to physical methods of "retraining." When I think of behavior problems, I think of the person who corrects or punishes a dog who is being "disobedient" while working stock, for example, only to find out later that the dog was going deaf and wasn't being disobedient at all, but simply couldn't hear. That's unfortunately a fairly typical scenario. Why not rule out physical problems instead of just assuming it's some dominance behavior?

 

I own nine border collies, some rescues, some raised from puppyhood. All are very nice, but one. I don't think that fact qualifies me as a behavior expert. The dog I labeled as "not nice' is actually pretty nice and friendly in general, but he also has fear aggression issues and some general aggression issues. (An example of the latter would be that when a friend and I were walking dogs the other night, he did something to himself--no other animals or human around--that hurt and he yelped. His very next response was to lash out at the unfortunate dog who came near him. That wasn't dominance behavior; it was misdirected aggression as a result of whatever pain he felt right beforehand.) I can assure you that if I were to use the method you described in your first post, he wouldn't back down, he would escalate. Personally I don't want to get in regular fights with my dog. For me it's easier to work within his parameters and manage him in a way that's least stressful to both of us. And FWIW, he's a dog we joke about having no branches on his family tree (I have his pedigree and he's extremely inbred), and I do think part of his problem is genetic, and frankly, if his problem is in his hard wiring, then I don't think trying to dominate him is going to make one bit of difference in the long run (been there, done that with him).

 

Anyway, I think the advice the OP was given to get a blood workup and consult a board-certified veterinary behaviorist is quite sound. She doesn't really need a bunch of folks who can't actually see what's going on and certainly can't know the full story to try and advise her on how to fix the dog. The best advice we can give is to send her to someone who can put eyes on the dog, assess the situation in person, and proceed with a plan from there.

 

JMO.

 

J.

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What a terrible ordeal. I think that there is some VERY GOOD advice here from some very experienced people. What a great group you all are.

 

The only part I didn't really see talked about in this thread for her was the PTS option. I know it's not a choice anyone wants to ever make, but if the OP is hoping to start a family, and the lab works come back inconclusive... well I just want to say that sometimes the most humane answer is to not prolong an unbalanced and unsafe dog's life. Vets to vets, drugs to drugs, unloved dog to uncared for dog, Shelter to shelter, it's not always an option to keep an animal around because it is hard for US to say no more. I have thankfully never had make this choice, but would never condem anyone who felt this was the right decision for themselves or their dog, and here I might look at PTS, depending on the bloodwork, as a stronger option vs a lifetime of fear and micromanagement to ensure the safety of an infant...I would not bring a baby into this scenario. There may be very hard choices and it IS ok to consider all of them.

 

Ok, got my armor on and my head down.

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This discussion isn't about Cesar Milan and I don't really know his methods (don't get National Geo), so I'm not sure why you keep referring to anyone's dislike of him. Is the method you're describing something you've seen him do?

 

I haven't read every post word for word so must have missed references to Milan, but the method JBlaock described sure sounds like what I've seen Milan do a few times on his show. At least one of the times, he used a tennis racket to avoid a bite while keeping a dog away from an area. And he does talk about "claiming" areas, objects and food.

 

I agree on the blood workup and a certified vet behaviorist for this type of dog.

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There may be very hard choices and it IS ok to consider all of them.

 

Ok, got my armor on and my head down.

I don't think you need to armor yourself or slink away. What you say is very true. The problem dog I described in my first post was a dog I took in with the express plan of rehoming. Once I realized the extent of his issues (he also has obsessive behaviors) I realized he would never be a candidate for rehoming, so he's still with me nearly nine years later. I am able to manage him because my lifestyle allows it. If I had small children or babies around, I probably wouldn't have taken the chance. I think few, if any, folks here would condemn the OP for making that tough decision if it comes to that. A dog who bites and draws blood *is* a liability--one that only the OP can decide if it's worth the risk.

 

Liz,

Apparently Milan's methods are quite effective--at least his followers think so, and I imagine if his methods didn't work he wouldn't be a household name. The main concern I would have about someone trying to emulate those methods is that while they may be able to copy his actions, they may not necessarily (and probably don't) have his skill at reading dogs and adjusting to the changing situations (nor do they have a clue about the working theory behind the actions). Training isn't just about taking the tennis racquet and claiming the space; it's also about being able to read the dog and react as quickly as the dog might react and this is where I think Milan's methods can create problems among the dog-owning general public. I think that concern applies to any expert who plies a specialized trade on TV and has lots of home viewers who think they might be able to get the same results just by applying the tools/methods when in fact they just don't have the skill or savvy of the person on TV to make it work. (I'm sure something like that has been said in the discussions on Milan that have taken place here in the past.)

 

J.

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What a terrible ordeal. I think that there is some VERY GOOD advice here from some very experienced people. What a great group you all are.

 

The only part I didn't really see talked about in this thread for her was the PTS option. I know it's not a choice anyone wants to ever make, but if the OP is hoping to start a family, and the lab works come back inconclusive... well I just want to say that sometimes the most humane answer is to not prolong an unbalanced and unsafe dog's life. Vets to vets, drugs to drugs, unloved dog to uncared for dog, Shelter to shelter, it's not always an option to keep an animal around because it is hard for US to say no more. I have thankfully never had make this choice, but would never condem anyone who felt this was the right decision for themselves or their dog, and here I might look at PTS, depending on the bloodwork, as a stronger option vs a lifetime of fear and micromanagement to ensure the safety of an infant...I would not bring a baby into this scenario. There may be very hard choices and it IS ok to consider all of them.

 

Ok, got my armor on and my head down.

 

I think you made a fine point, and I don't think there's need for armor. :rolleyes:

 

We had Molly, an English bulldog, years ago. (We took her in when she was "returned" to a breeder...) Long story shorter: Molly was a case study in why engineering dogs to an appearance-based breed standard ain't always such a hot idea. Heatstroke in 65 degree weather, chronic unrelenting ear infections, hip dysplasia, and frankly, Molly was, bless her heart, not a bright dog. At all. And then, at about age 6, it all began to collide. We did everything---physical workup, professional trainer, etc. Our vet was fantastic and worked with us every step of the way as Molly deteriorated from a dog who could go visit the nursing home to a dog that got my neighbor cornered on our front porch and acted like she was playing for keeps. Then, she challenged our son (who was a toddler and not allowed near her w/o supervision) for a soft toy he was carrying as they passed in the LR. A day or two later, he was in his booster seat eating a breadstick, and she put her front feet up and growled, then lunged for it and snatched it as he was putting it to his mouth. Game over. Our vet, who said he did not generally support euthanizing a dog for behavior told us there was really no other option. And, I knew that as heartwrenching as it was, I'd rather be answerable for PTS a dog like Molly than holding my child's hand in the ER when someone tried to patch up a face bite.

 

It is a hard decision, but sometimes, it is the right one.

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Neuroses may be a possibility - but I'd sure get that thyroid panel done, ASAP. Another thread has the links - but I would very seriously consider sending the blood off the Hemopet/Dr. Jean Dodds. Local vets are good - but Dodds is the best. The locals just may miss something that Dodds, with a larger database, may be able to pinpoint. This does sound like a physical issue to me - hope something does work out. You obviously care, and who knows what the genes are carrying...yikes.

 

Best of luck to you.

 

diane

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hmmm...wolves too will act extremely agressive towards their subordinate pack members, growling, snarling, biting, fighting, and then they will come back all calmly and lick the same member - not out of remorse, but because they won the battle, proved they were the leader, put the other member back in its place, and now have to go take care of it like a good pack leader.... nothing heartbreaking in that case, just the natural way they think and act, and if the subordinate wolf decides to assert himself/herself as the alpha, they get to be the agressor/licker

 

You should look into some of Turid Rugaas' work.

 

To the OP. I don't envy you. I wish you the best of luck and truly hope you can find someone to help you. I do hope you can at least get that blood work done, that may hold all the answers. It may not, but I think it's the most important step. Please let us know though how things turn out.

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I'm also wholly lacking in expertise, so my two cents is worth precisely two cents; however, I can tell you what my trainer told me about discouraging possession and aggression.

 

Following my trainer's advice, I repeatedly "taught" Blake from a young age to accept having food and toys taken from him. I would give him a treat, let him chew, and then take it out of his mouth and hold on to it for a minute or two before returning it to him.

 

I'm glad I did this. We walk past a few restaurants on the way to the park and on rubbish day there is a lot of trash on the street here. A few times I have had to pry his jaws open and almost reach down his throat to remove a shard of bone, and after a mild growl the first time, he has begun to reluctantly accept this intervention. (Though his new strategy when he finds a piece of bone is to swallow as fast as he can before I can get to him!)

 

My trainer also highly recommended playing tug-o-war and winning 100 per cent of the time: He said dogs view this game as a strength test, and your consistently winning reinforces that they are weaker than you, and therefore they will be less likely to challenge you in other situations.

 

Just an idea.

 

Here's a video link:

 

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I've played tug with my boys and when they were pups, I let them win 100% of the time to build their confidence. They are now almost 3 and 4yrs. old and I can get them to let go with just a look. This came about in time with playing with them. As they got older, they didn't win all the time. Then it was just letting them know, if I really wanted it, I got it. I really don't know how or why playing tug has gotton so much negative publicity.

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Apparently Milan's methods are quite effective--at least his followers think so, and I imagine if his methods didn't work he wouldn't be a household name. The main concern I would have about someone trying to emulate those methods is that while they may be able to copy his actions, they may not necessarily (and probably don't) have his skill at reading dogs and adjusting to the changing situations (nor do they have a clue about the working theory behind the actions).

 

Agreed. I do think Milan has much skill and talent in the way he interacts with dogs. I actually like him and think he offers some good advice. He also takes on dogs that look pretty freaking scary to me compared to the dogs that Victoria Stillwell (whom I also like and whose approach is much closer to my own) takes on. But I do see how his "way" could be fraught with peril for the wrong dog-owner combination out there.

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One of my rescue dogs had really serious problems. I got her when she was about 5. I never really knew what caused the problems. It looked like serious abuse but it might not have been.

 

She was fine if she was off by herself. But if anyone tried to approach her she would just curl up in a ball and scream and pee and bite. It was awful. Any attempt to kind of "correct" her made her 10 times worse.

 

She had a little crate where she felt safe and she stayed there a lot of the time. And I got her out to run several times a day. But any real interaction with her was impossible.

 

I just took all the stress off her and kind of just let her do her own thing - it was the only thing that worked. And over time she did get a little better. I finally could take her to the vet without a muzzle. And she stopped trying to bite me - but she was not safe around anyone else. And she loved to ride in the car so we did that.

 

But she was never right. And it would have been impossible to place her in a regular environment.

 

She lived to be 13 or 14. She finally died of some kind of brain problem - a tumor or a lesion or water on the brain is what they told me. I always wondered if she had some kind of brain damage.

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I've been reading the thread for a couple days. It's terrible you're having to go through this, and I sympathize. My dog has gotten much better with people, but he's still reactive to dogs, and I know that feeling of not knowing what's going to happen, not knowing if you can save the dog.

 

My neighbors have a Basenji who slowly went blind and got more aggressive. At this point, he bites his owners. They're going to try medicating him. Unlike my dog, he doesn't seem to act in a predictable manner; he can turn on a dime and bite. Seems to me that there's something more than just dominance going on - that he's wired differently from other dogs. My buddy is reactive but utterly predictable, and so I can manage him. I don't know what I'd do if that weren't true.

 

Good luck.

 

Mary

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