Who said "slow" was easy

[sweet_ceana]

We have the sweetest foster boy in the whole world staying with us. Right now he is in my lap and just relaxing and he has been for the last hour... and yes, he is a 7 month old BC. How is this possible you may ask? Well it seems that sweet Charlie boy is not the sharpest knife in the drawer. He sticks to us like velcro and all he wants is love. We get woken up every 30 minutes at night with a 40lb puppy hovering over us thinking "Duh, now it's time to pet Charlie??" He does not get "no, ehh, uhuh, knock it off" or anything else you could imagine. LOL it is actually quite amusing. Needless to say I don't think anything but positive training would work for him because he just doesn't "get" correction. We also worked on sit for 30 minutes last night and nothing! I think he got I click= treat, but he did not even slightly grasp sit. I don't even think he noticed his butt was on the floor. He would just gaze up at me like I was some sort of random treat dispencer. I tried leading him by the nose, placing his tush, everything I could think of and still nothing!

 

So here are my two questions. One, any suggestions on teaching him sit? Two, how can I make the floor the best place ever when the highest reward for Charlie is to be snuggling, and Chris and I are asleep on the bed, prime for snuggling? LOL this is much harder than a wild child, at least I know what to do with them. The most difficult part of this is that I am usually only semi-concious when I get assulted by puppy love so my brain power is not at its finest which has brought upon a lack of sleep further inhibiting my brain function.

 

"Can I come to your house and wake you up??? I mean snuggle?"

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

I can't offer any advice, but I think he's terribly cute! My aunt has a beagle, something cross and he isn't the sharpest tool in the shed either. I have tried clicker training on him and it does work, only, really, really slowly. Good Luck with him!

[Sue R]

For night, try crating.

[Mark Billadeau]

Skip the treats; use lovin & touchin as the reward. Keep the lovin calm and sweet not exciting.

 

Start with down.

Help him lie down and once down lavish tons of love on him. Stop, distract him so he gets up. repeat

Once you think he understands down, ask him to lie down, DO NOT TOUCH HIM. When he does lie down then reward.

This should help him understand the reward system. Now try teaching sit.

 

You may find that this dog will try harder to please you than any other dog.

 

Mark

[osioda]

He needs to learn his boundaries, and for night crating is a definite this will help him to learn his boundaries and also, it will help him in learning sit, lie down and stay.

 

Start with putting a collar on him, and lets start teaching him the lie down command and holding him there for a little bit put a leash on him and slide it under your foot and tell him Lie down and firmly pull the leash and force him down and if just his front goes down push his butt down and then hold him there for just a few seconds and if he fights you tell him no and do not just let him get away with doing what he wants , and then just praise him so much holding and hugging him and telling him what a good dog he is. and then in just a little bit do it again. and just hold him just a little longer while he is down eventually he will do what you want with out a problem, but I am guessing he has just had the run of where ever he was and never showed any discipline at all.

 

Once he understands that you are boss he will then be able to start teaching the sit and anything else you like to teach. Main thing is don't make a game out of him doing what he wants.

 

 

I am guessing you do this with just a few times you won't have a problem at all with him and the lie down command, and also And when you teach this use a firm voice not a yell, just a firm voice and then after he starts learning things like lie down and sit, go to a whisper, and you will be surprised at the result you can get.

[urge to herd]

Maybe the most reinforcing thing for Charlie is touch? Try not using the treats and give a head scritch or very brief neck massage. If he perks up and learns faster, you've found the answer.

 

Not all dogs think food is the be all and end all. If Charlie is such an affection sponge, use the techniques that Mark and Sue described and reinforce by petting/stroking.

 

He is terribly cute - what an expression!

 

Ruth

[Root Beer]

We also worked on sit for 30 minutes last night and nothing! I think he got I click= treat, but he did not even slightly grasp sit. I don't even think he noticed his butt was on the floor. He would just gaze up at me like I was some sort of random treat dispencer. I tried leading him by the nose, placing his tush, everything I could think of and still nothing!

 

Yes, slow down!! If he only got 1 click and treat in all that time, the criteria was way too high!

 

Dean was just like this when we adopted him and we had to work our way up to sit.

 

I used "Phase 1" in this article with him immediately when I discovered that he was too excited to learn during our clicker sessions. You might give it a try. I did not put him through this whole process. Once I had done "Phase 1" with him, he was able to move on to behaviors like sit, down, etc.

 

I also used his morning meal to train, but not until after we had done "Phase 1".

 

http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2001/attention.htm

 

You can also use attention as a reward, but I would get some semi-fluent behaviors in place before doing that.

[esox]

Adorable fellow. My Alex is not motivated by food. She prefers an ear scratch or throwing the tennis ball. When we tried training with food treats, we got the what's my incentive look.

 

Esox

[afrancis]

...He needs to learn his boundaries

...tell him Lie down and firmly pull the leash and force him down

...do not just let him get away with doing what he wants

...Once he understands that you are boss

 

As much as I think this kind of rigid discipline might work in some situations (or not, or maybe its just the semantics ), I don't know whether it is the best solution with this particular dog. It's my understanding that he's not showing a dominant, willful disobedience, just a general cluelessness. I think a sensible, consistent, firm but reasonably gentle attitude would be a better approach with poor Charlie. I think you're following the right path but it will just take a bit of time. After all, you're no novice with fosters, right?

And yes, if you don't favour the all-night cuddles, crating IS the answer .

BTW, do you have a history on him? How long has he been with you? Is he interested in toys?

Ailsa

[Northof49]

Start with putting a collar on him, and lets start teaching him the lie down command and holding him there for a little bit put a leash on him and slide it under your foot and tell him Lie down and firmly pull the leash and force him down and if just his front goes down push his butt down and then hold him there for just a few seconds and if he fights you tell him no and do not just let him get away with doing what he wants

 

Well, isn't that just a fun way for a dog to learn. Nothing like punishing a dog for someting he doesn't have a clue about

[Bordercentrics]

Could Charlie be deaf?

 

Kathy Robbins

[trailrider]

Well, isn't that just a fun way for a dog to learn. Nothing like punishing a dog for someting he doesn't have a clue about

 

 

Agree. The main problem in teaching with this dog is that he has problems that are not too typical. Most of us need to actually see the dog behaviour and with insight, work with that individual dog. It is not usually accurate to determine a method unless we can be present. I wish you lived nearby to one of us that works with problem dog behaviour. Best wishes in your endeavor.

[osioda]

Everyone has there way of teaching and for one to learn the pup has to know his limitations you don't praise a dog for doing something wrong that is common sense.

[Ninso]

I've had a couple of fosters like that--you swear they have about 2 working brain cells. There is hope though--they do learn, just slowly, and as they mature their brain generally starts to work.

 

My current foster, an 18 month old Aussie, took 3 WEEKS to learn "down." He got "click=treat" right away and "eye contact=click=treat" right away too, but down was a huge struggle. Actually, he caught on very, very quickly that he could make me treat by laying down, but to actually get him to associate the word "down" with the action took a very long time. Part of his problem is that he is SOOOO crazy about food that he just can't think very well when it's around. So we first did a lot of just clicking for sitting or laying down calmly in front of me, giving eye contact. Once his mind is in a better place, he can learn better. It's actually easier to train him with cuddles as the reward, because he LOVES being petted, but doesn't get crazy like he does with food. You might want to start with a simpler behavior, like eye contact. I've also found that shaping works better for my Aussie than luring. His brain absolutely shuts off if there is food in front of his nose. He does better if he has to think first to get the food.

 

Your foster may be difficult, but he's probably not stupid. Try different things--what I've found through fostering is that each dog (like each person) thinks differently and learns differently. Make learning very easy and highly rewarding at first, and try to keep your sessions very short--like 2 minutes instead of 30.

[Root Beer]

My current foster, an 18 month old Aussie, took 3 WEEKS to learn "down." He got "click=treat" right away and "eye contact=click=treat" right away too, but down was a huge struggle. Actually, he caught on very, very quickly that he could make me treat by laying down, but to actually get him to associate the word "down" with the action took a very long time.

 

I accidentally figured out a really cool trick to get a down on cue faster!

 

I started out by shaping a down on mat by sitting in front of a mat on the floor and shaping the dog to come lie down on it. One of my dogs came over and did a down on the mat right away, one threw a bazillion behaviors at me before finally lying down, and one I had to shape the classical way, c/t for looking at the mat, c/t for one paw on the mat, c/t for two paws on the pat, etc.

 

Every time I c/t in this exercise I tossed a treat away from the mat to get the dog set up to come back to lie down on it again.

 

Once I had a solid pattern - dog comes to mat and does a down, c/t, release, toss treat, dog comes to mat and lies down, c/t, release, toss treat, repeat - I simply started to say my "down" cue, which is "splat" every time the dog was about to lie down on the mat.

 

From there I stood up to continue the process - doing so did not cause any of the dogs to stop returning to the mat to lie down. And once I had practiced the "splat" for a few days like this, they would all splat down whether a mat was there or not. Fading the mat was not an issue - they simply "got it".

 

I know you've already got it trained now, but for next time, you might be interested - or if you need to retrain the cue at any point. Not only was it very fast, but it was very fun for the dogs.

 

The OP might want to try this, as well, to practice a high rate of reinforcement with the clicker. This exercise would probably help the OP's foster with focus and understanding of the clicker training process.

[Northof49]

Everyone has there way of teaching and for one to learn the pup has to know his limitations you don't praise a dog for doing something wrong that is common sense.

 

This pup obiously has no idea what "down" means, so you think that you should crank this dog down to the ground by stepping on the leash - which is going to automically make the dog want to resist - it's instinctive to do so, then you want to force this dog to stay in the down position by keeping your foot on the leash. Then because the dog has no idea what is going on, it is going to try to get up and you just want this dog to struggle (because it has no idea what the hell is going on) until it finally gives up and lies down because it has no choice in the matter.

 

I'm sorry, but this makes no senses to me at all - this is punishing a dog for not doing something it has no idea about.

 

I've seen this method used by people that advocate the Koehler method of training, and it is far from pleasant or constructive for a dog. I've watched these dogs panic and struggle, often peeing themselves, as they have no idea what is going on. They end up lying down only because they give up trying to figure out what is going on.

[Bo Peep]

My last foster was kept in a back yard most of his life and "clingy" like that. He walked well on a leash, because he didn't want to leave my side for ANY reason. I had to make sure that he was on the left side- just my way of training-but, him being so attached to me made it easy. He wasn't fond of dog treats, but people food he liked, so I lured him into the sit position with a piece of cheese and clicked as soon as his little butt hit the pavement, then gave him the cheese or hot dog piece. As soon as he learned that clicker noise, he was great. He was pretty easy to crate train with a little help with the hot dog and keeping him in the same room with the other dogs. It was like "oh, all dogs sleep in crates, ok...here's my Kong (the other's got theirs also during that time) and I'm a happy dog. There was a little whining at first- I ignored it. Then it just quit.

 

Mine was one I knew I had to find a home for right away, as he was so attached to me, I was worried about the placement of another home. Luckily, I found him a good "pet home". The man that took him saw him before I had finished more than I wanted to on training. He had lost his dog of 17 years 6 weeks before and was looking for another pet. When he saw him (he said "I will know when I find the right one for me") he was in love! I explained how shy the dog was and how little training I had put on him and that I only had the money for neuter and shots. He paid the heart worm test and meds and micro-chip. Turned out we go to the same vet and they told me I couldn't have found a better home.

 

So I hope your beautiful dog turns out the same way that my last rescue did. I'm done until after Christmas. Taking a break. I only wish you the best of luck.

[Lenajo]

I'm sorry, but this makes no senses to me at all - this is punishing a dog for not doing something it has no idea about

 

Yet it makes sense to hundreds, I daresay thousands, or working Border Collies trained to work every year. I can count without thinking hard, about 2 dozen trainers of good reputation who teach down with a foot on the leash -both the puppies and the dogs old enough to go to sheep.

 

Just because it isn't *your* way, doesn't mean it's not an effective, and acceptable, way to teach the behavior. So the dog flops around a bit? This is not the end of the world for him or for training - he's not being abused, just restricted. There are many times in life where a dog will not understand what is going on, but has to accept that it *is*. I find dogs indoctrinated to that idea as puppies are much easier to live with as adults.

 

If anything doesn't make sense here, it's giving a new foster the freedom of being loose in the house at night before it even has the training to understand basic good behavior. This dog, especially any new dog without good background, needs structure first and foremost. For safety, and to set a tone for relationship where he learns to *need* humans for the essentials of life. That need is used to develop training situations, a "reason" if you will do do what we ask. Sit for breakfast, down for supper and all that.

 

I try not to encourage clingyness. It's not a healthy mental state to be in long term.

[osioda]

Well Said Lenajo , I have never ever hurt one of the many many dogs I have trained in life with this method the so many problems that people have with dogs are the ones they create on there own, by not showing discipline and just letting them run and do what ever they want. If the dog does not respect you why would he want to learn he can do what ever he wants.

 

Every one of the dogs I have owned would do anything for me, not out of fear, but because they respect me and know that i respect them an love them.

 

Just because you show discipline does not mean you don't love your dogs. It shows you do

[ziggzmom]

Everyone has there way of teaching and for one to learn the pup has to know his limitations you don't praise a dog for doing something wrong that is common sense.

 

 

Hi,

 

You don't praise a dog for doing something wrong, but this dog doesn't understand what is expected of him yet, so he can't be 'wrong'. The method you discribe, IMHO, is probably not the best for this guy....He needs to learn how to learn(whch includes limitations). I'm guessing that he would very much like to please his person, just doesn't have a clue how to do that yet=) Dogs like this teach us a lot!

 

Janet

[PSmitty]

Ditto Janet.

 

You have to find what works for each individual dog. Steve's methods are fine for some dogs, but maybe something else would work better for this dog, and others like him. I don't think there's a question of him needing to "know you're the boss", I just think he's clueless. He'll catch on!

 

Oh, and I'd have him crated at night, for sure!

[osioda]

Hi,

 

You don't praise a dog for doing something wrong, but this dog doesn't understand what is expected of him yet, so he can't be 'wrong'. The method you discribe, IMHO, is probably not the best for this guy....He needs to learn how to learn(whch includes limitations). I'm guessing that he would very much like to please his person, just doesn't have a clue how to do that yet=) Dogs like this teach us a lot!

 

Janet

 

Janet this is why I stated right off the pup needs to be in a crate at night, this is the beginning of learning. Not to be able to run free and do what ever he wants. It is a calm way of showing limitations

[BC-Liz]

I find dogs indoctrinated to that idea as puppies are much easier to live with as adults.

 

Just because you show discipline does not mean you don't love your dogs. It shows you do

 

I couldn't agree more. Right now we have a roommate with a coon hound who he has never properly trained (or taken care of in my opinion). She is a thorn in my side right now. It's like night and day looking at our pups and her (granted, that may not be a fair comparison). She's in Liz and Steven's doggy boot camp, and doing well I might add. It's funny how much better she acts around Steven and I as opposed to her master. I think the big difference there is respect and knowing her limitation.

 

As for the OP, I'd definitely go with crating at night. In the same room would probably be fine. It's hard to say without meeting this guy whether he would take well to the forced style of teaching or not. You may want to try a couple things and see which gets the best reaction.

 

Good luck. He's adorable!

[Krambambuli]

Maybe Charlie is just really unsure of himself in this new situation, and wants constant reinforcement that "all is ok"? Kids do that sometimes, always wanting to sit on your lap etc.. He has the sweetest face. Or maybe you are the love of his life? ))

 

I am sure dogs have different levels of intelligence and learning abilities. Maybe he'll take longer to learn, but if he is so well behaved, it does not matter so much (as opposed to a wild dog). I agree on the crating at night, unless he keeps you up with crying if you do that.

 

Good luck, and if you get tired of being adored, send him this way.

[Shetlander]

Pulling a dog into a down and keeping the leash taut until he accepted the position has been used for a long time and I think, all things being equal, that most dogs go on to live at least as happy of lives as dogs taught with lures or clickers. I would be careful about that approach with a shy or uncertain dog, though.

 

I train down and sit with lures and haven't had any problem getting reliable, quick responses. Just as there are many ways to train, there are many ways to have well behaved, disciplined dogs. IMHO, it isn't usually the method that is at fault for ill mannered dogs but how the method was applied by the trainer.