New 5 week old worried!! HELP!!

[painted_ponies]

The reason I am going back, Is the same reason that I rescue dogs... I have a heart.

 

I understand you feel bad for this little pup, but if you pay this breeder money, you are helping her to breed another litter. And another. That's going to be a lot of pups that you won't be able to help. Wouldn't it be better to have a heart for another rescue, and not support this breeder who's doing bad things?

 

Half of the better breeders out there are willing to kill a whole litter of pups just because they can not get the prob papers due to the fact that a female got into a yard full of males.

 

I disagree. A DNA test would show which male sired the pup. Or does AKC not register on DNA test results? I don't know what their policy is. But it would seem silly to destroy the litter when they could still be sold to people who don't care about registration papers. What breeders are you talking about?

 

I have entered in a contract with this lady. Which even Resuce places have so. I have to honor that before I move on.

Does the contract require you to buy a pup with health problems? Are you sure it's a binding contract? What do you think would happen if you told her you changed your mind? Are you paying enough for this pup that it would be cost-effective for the breeder to take you to court to enforce it?

[stockdogranch]

You've been given really sound advice from many on the boards here. As many have stated, there are far more reasons to ABANDON this plan/contract than to proceed with this pup. No matter if you have already given a deposit, even if you walk away, you will still be better off, not just for yourself and the future grief you will probably be getting into, but for the sake, as mentioned, of NOT SUPPORTING a "breeder" who would sell an unhealthy pup. Yes, this breeder should be taking this pup to the vet HERSELF; it should not be up to you to do AFTER you have purchased it. If you want a pup you can train up, there are lots of healthy ones from reputable breeders out there...

 

You asked for advice; the best advice I can offer is to take that which has already been given from those who are very experienced with BCs over many years,

A

[juliepoudrier]

I'm sorry, but I don't think buying a pup from a breeder because you feel sorry for the pup is the same thing as rescue at all. As Sally said, giving your money to an irresponsible breeder just encourages more irresponsible breeding. Taking in an honest-to-God rescue frees up space in rescue for another unwanted/dumped dog. Not the same thing.

 

J.

[hpjoe2001]

I understand you feel bad for this little pup, but if you pay this breeder money, you are helping her to breed another litter. And another. That's going to be a lot of pups that you won't be able to help. Wouldn't it be better to have a heart for another rescue, and not support this breeder who's doing bad things?

I disagree. A DNA test would show which male sired the pup. Or does AKC not register on DNA test results? I don't know what their policy is. But it would seem silly to destroy the litter when they could still be sold to people who don't care about registration papers. What breeders are you talking about?

Does the contract require you to buy a pup with health problems? Are you sure it's a binding contract? What do you think would happen if you told her you changed your mind? Are you paying enough for this pup that it would be cost-effective for the breeder to take you to court to enforce it?

 

 

The contract is binding unless there are health probs. If I changed my mind she would prob ask if I wanted a pup from another liter that is due on feb 22. The pup is costing me $600 which is actually pretty cheap. I dont think she would take me to court for it.

You're right right now you can do DNA testing that is pretty expensive as of 20 years ago when I rescused a dog I dont believe they could do that. I dont even think they were doing that on some human murders. Some breeders are/can be pretty crazy when it comes to having a Champion.

I see the domino affect I could have by buying this pup and supporting future liters I will keep you all updated and think you very much for your care and knowledge

[Journey]

The contract is binding unless there are health probs. If I changed my mind she would prob ask if I wanted a pup from another liter that is due on feb 22. The pup is costing me $600 which is actually pretty cheap. I dont think she would take me to court for it.

You're right right now you can do DNA testing that is pretty expensive as of 20 years ago when I rescused a dog I dont believe they could do that. I dont even think they were doing that on some human murders. Some breeders are/can be pretty crazy when it comes to having a Champion.

I see the domino affect I could have by buying this pup and supporting future liters I will keep you all updated and think you very much for your care and knowledge

 

Shees, I have never seen a contract that is binding until you have possession. You can walk away and loose a deposit maybe but you are NOT bound to buy this pup. And what's really scary is the fact there is another litter due in a month. I am beginning to wonder if you are for real or just baiting people on the board? You've been give tons of advice, solid knowledge from those that have been in the breed, have bred litters, rescue from people you are about to buy from and you continue to move forward. $600 is "expensive" not cheap for pup - for AKC it's average but unknown buyers who don't research think cost equals quality. But what does it matter the cost? Rescue is up to maybe $300?

 

DNA is cheap too. There are AKC breeders that intentionally breed to 2 stud dogs, DNA the pups to determine which is by which and then they register accordingly.

 

The domino effect should not even be a factor. You having said you have rescued dogs before should know that and know that you are supporting a BYB or worse.

 

You've been given web sites to show the problem this pup may have, you've been given solid advise. Why do you keep asking for more? There's no miracle out there and BUYING this pup is not Rescue, that is a slam to those that do rescue.

 

Karen

[Liz P]

$600 is NOT cheap. It is very expensive for the quality of pup being offered to you. Even if you have already handed over the entire $600 it would be less expensive and less heartbreaking in the long run to just walk away if this pup turns out to have something very wrong with it.

 

The contract is already broken, by the breeder, from what I can see.

 

It is clear from the way you are reacting to people's very sound advice that you already have an emotional attachment to this pup.

[Shetlander]

It is clear from the way you are reacting to people's very sound advice that you already have an emotional attachment to this pup.

 

I understand how disappointed you may be and/or your thought that you are "saving" this puppy, but you will never have less heartache over this dog than now. No matter how attracted or drawn you may be, you haven't truly bonded with the pup. $600 may be "cheap" compared to some of the more well known/established AKC breeders, but it is a very high price for this particular puppy. And the price tag will most likely only get higher with vet bills. Right off the bat, you are paying extra if you need to take her to an opthamologist. That is usually done by breeders before the pups are sold. As Liz P. said, even if you already gave the breeder the entire price and she refused to refund any of the money, the wisest thing by far would still be to walk away. At worst, you'll be $600 poorer and saddened about a poor little pup you don't really know. Compare that to thousands of dollars gone and grieving over the loss of a beloved companion.

[herdcentral]

That is around what I paid for my black and white.

 

Her parents have been hip and elbow scored and genetically normal on the CEA/CH test, CL mutation and for TNS.

 

I once bought a dog form a registered breeder who bred lots of puppies and who didnt do any tests and ended up with a dog with elbow dysplasia - cost me thousands of dollars so far in medical bills and still going.

 

It is very hard all this, but I will never again buy from a breeder who hasnt done any health checks and that breeds a lot of litters.

[C Crocker]

Thank you If I go there in 2 weeks and the eye still looks the same she is allowing me to take it to the eye doctor you have all been very very helpful still if anyone has had a dog like this before keep the comments coming. I have never delt with this kind of prob so any advice is always welcome. I keep everyone updated thank you!!!!!!!!

 

 

I am hoping this pup will not be over 8 weeks by the time you take it to an opthalmalogist ( not only a veterinarian, but the kind which CERF pups eyes.). To me it makes no difference what color, sex your pup is--it needs an eye exam by it's 8th week of life, whether or not a problem is suspected. If your breeder does not know this, then your breeder most likely does not know many other things that can affect the health of a pup.

 

Frankly, speaking as a long time horse breeder, I feel your breeder should have this pup on that vet's doorstep on it's 6th week of life, as it's owner, no matter whether anyone wants to buy this pup. Anything less is shirking his/her duties as a breeder of any animal. An eye exam at the proper age is done on ALL pups by responsible breeders.

 

Carolyn

[DeltaBluez Tess]

Ok, here is my take as a breeder. When I sell pups, this is my guarantee. I know others from this boards have the same guarantees as me.

 

1. Working ability (as in proven at Open Level - USBCHA trials; top trial placements AND proven at the farm, moving 60-100 sheep on a working farm and or working cattle/sheep on a big operation)

2. Health Guarantee (all of my pups parents have the hip done and CERF and finishing up on the rest on the DNA eye test)

3. Temperament (has to be good)

4. I want first buyback option if the pup does not work out for you.

5. ABCA dogs...not AKC or show lines

 

The pups from my breeding get vet checked on a weekly basis (since one of my students is a vet), they get all shots/wormed and they get CERF exam. They get handled quite a bit too so they are not skittish.

 

The pups does NOT get sold if they do not pass the CERF or any health defects or temperament issues. PERIOD. If the chosen pup does not pass the CERF, then the buyer can get another pup, or pass on the purchase.

 

You should not get this pup because the breeder says you have a contract. You should get a quality pup with no eye issues. As a concerned buyer, you should expect a CERF exam as part of the deal and not pay extra.

 

It's a 15 plus yr committement and you want to start it off with a sound, healthy pup.

 

Diane

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I will never again buy from a breeder who hasnt done any health checks and that breeds a lot of litters.

 

For me, the important thing is buying from someone I know and trust, someone who is breeding for a specific working quality, someone who will stand behind their dogs through thick and thin, and whose dogs I see working to a sound old age (relatives of the pup, parents sound into maturity).

 

I think the eye testing is an important contribution to the health of the breed as a whole. Other than that, knowing and trusting the breeder is enough for me.

 

I don't think pups are something you can just buy like a TV at Wal-mart - just shop until you find the one you like, look for the Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval, plunk down your money, and if you don't like it return it in 90 days.

[hpjoe2001]

Shees, I have never seen a contract that is binding until you have possession. You can walk away and loose a deposit maybe but you are NOT bound to buy this pup. And what's really scary is the fact there is another litter due in a month. I am beginning to wonder if you are for real or just baiting people on the board? You've been give tons of advice, solid knowledge from those that have been in the breed, have bred litters, rescue from people you are about to buy from and you continue to move forward. $600 is "expensive" not cheap for pup - for AKC it's average but unknown buyers who don't research think cost equals quality. But what does it matter the cost? Rescue is up to maybe $300?

 

DNA is cheap too. There are AKC breeders that intentionally breed to 2 stud dogs, DNA the pups to determine which is by which and then they register accordingly.

 

The domino effect should not even be a factor. You having said you have rescued dogs before should know that and know that you are supporting a BYB or worse.

 

You've been given web sites to show the problem this pup may have, you've been given solid advise. Why do you keep asking for more? There's no miracle out there and BUYING this pup is not Rescue, that is a slam to those that do rescue.

 

Karen

 

 

Yes, I have only given a deposit, so I would lose $100.00. I know I said $600.00 is not a lot, but I still value the money I spend. I have seen (researched) breeders sell them for over a $1000.00. So I figured $600 was good. I dont mean to get defensive here, but why the hell would I come on here and bait people? I ask for YOUR OPINIONS! That does not mean I will do what everyone or anyone tells me what to do. At the same time I VALUE YOUR OPINIONS. I have learned a lot and I will use that. I never knew so much about breeders and merles. Now I know. I have owned border collies for 24 years now, and have never delt with a breeder so this is new to me. I am NOT HELLBENT On getting this puppy and I very well might not. I do grow a heart for any animal I see. It hurts me to see that animal in pain. Money is not really an issue weather the dog is free or the dog is a grand. I am not going to travel to Wales to get a pup and I am not going to some pet store to get one either. I went to a breeder who has 28 acres of property.She works her dogs with ducks when they are young and sheep when they get older. See spends a lot of time with them. So for one pup to come out bad might be the same thing as a kid that is mentally handicap. MAYBE, MAYBE NOT. dont jump down my throat for that. If you know other wise tell me.

 

I keep asking for people to share if they have delt with this eye prob before and/or whatever else they want to share. You can never learn to much. I understand that this pup that I MIGHT get is not a rescue. Getting it from any breeder is NOT a rescue but if there is NOTHING wrong with this pup why not get it? Maybe it was a bad camera angle. When i was there playing with it. Nothing looked odd or weird till I saw the picture. IF however the pup does have a prob I AM NOT GOING TO TAKE IT HOME. I am not slamming anyone that rescues. If you did not read I have only rescued. But thanks for turning me in to "Not a real person" when I was just asking for advice.

 

JOE

[hpjoe2001]

Ok, here is my take as a breeder. When I sell pups, this is my guarantee. I know others from this boards have the same guarantees as me.

 

1. Working ability (as in proven at Open Level - USBCHA trials; top trial placements AND proven at the farm, moving 60-100 sheep on a working farm and or working cattle/sheep on a big operation)

2. Health Guarantee (all of my pups parents have the hip done and CERF and finishing up on the rest on the DNA eye test)

3. Temperament (has to be good)

4. I want first buyback option if the pup does not work out for you.

5. ABCA dogs...not AKC or show lines

 

The pups from my breeding get vet checked on a weekly basis (since one of my students is a vet), they get all shots/wormed and they get CERF exam. They get handled quite a bit too so they are not skittish.

 

The pups does NOT get sold if they do not pass the CERF or any health defects or temperament issues. PERIOD. If the chosen pup does not pass the CERF, then the buyer can get another pup, or pass on the purchase.

 

You should not get this pup because the breeder says you have a contract. You should get a quality pup with no eye issues. As a concerned buyer, you should expect a CERF exam as part of the deal and not pay extra.

 

It's a 15 plus yr committement and you want to start it off with a sound, healthy pup.

 

Diane

 

Hi diane, This breeder Is pretty much the same thing as you only she is akc not abca. I dont believe she has tested her dogs up to 100 sheep let alone 20. I know she has 15-18 on her property and works them daily. Both the sire grandsire and great grandsire are still alive and They "look" healthy and active still. Dont see any hip probs/ eye probs.

 

What do you do with a dog that does not pass Cerf's? How much do you charge for your pups?

You can P.m. Me if you dont want to share on the public forum.

[juliepoudrier]

Joe,

1. Most breeders of working dogs sell pups for $500-600. Sport breeders and show breeders may ask for higher prices.

 

2. Numbers of sheep the dog is worked on is not as critical as the *quality standard* to which the dog is worked, which is why Diane mentioned USBCHA trials at the open level. Unfortunately, for most, if not all, AKC-bred dogs, the standard is depressingly low (AKC trials). Of course, if you're not looking for a dog to work stock, then whether the dog actually has the genetics to allow it to do superior work is academic. Do remember though that this board supports the breeding only of dogs with superior working ability (see the quotes I pasted below), so you won't get a lot of support for purchasing from an AKC breeder.

 

3. I have bred a litter and did not CERF the pups. The dam was DNA tested clear of CEA, and both dam and sire have their eyes tested yearly at the national finals (dam at the sheep finals, sire at the cattle finals). I personally don't require CERFs to buy a pup, since as Becca noted above, I will know the sire, dam, and other working relatives of the pup well, and I will *trust* the breeder before I even consider getting a pup. Most working breeders breed litters when they want a pup for themselves. Since they would logically want only the best and healthiest workers for themselves, it stands to reason that they would take care with the breeding (i.e., not breed dogs known to have defects, etc.). This was certainly the case with the litter I bred.

 

4. As to your earlier comments about killing pups from an unknown sire, that's a bit extreme. Most people I know of who have had accidental breedings (before DNA testing was possible) simply sold the unregistered pups for less money. One of my up and coming youngsters is the result of an accidental breeding. Before taking her (the other pups were being sold unregistered), I had the DNA test done. That said, had this been pre-DNA test, I might still have taken the pup and taken my chances, since the male dogs at this particular farm were all working dogs.

 

if there is NOTHING wrong with this pup why not get it?

 

As has been stated before in this thread, the reason not to get the pup, assuming it is healthy, is becuase the breeder appears to be breeding for reasons OTHER than those that are expressly embraced by this forum and its owners as explained in the Read this First thread that appears at the top of each section:

For the good of the breed, border collies should be bred only for working ability. The border collie breed was created by farmers and shepherds who wanted to develop a dog which could help them manage their livestock. They bred only to produce good workers, and that singleness of purpose created the breed we love. Changing the way border collies are bred will change the breed itself. Therefore, breeding dogs who have not proven themselves as useful herding dogs, or breeding for appearance/color, or breeding for sports or for "good pets," or breeding for anything other than working ability (which includes the health and temperament necessary for working) is harmful to the breed.

 

Border collies should not be registered with the AKC. The AKC recognized the border collie in 1994, over the protests of the vast majority of border collie owners and organizations in the US. (For more details about the AKC takeover, read this ). But the AKC defines breeds by their appearance, and encourages and rewards breeding for appearance. This is okay for some breeds, but is detrimental to a breed like the border collie, which has always been defined and shaped by its work. Because the AKC is so influential in the dog world, our only hope to preserve the integrity of the border collie--to keep it a useful working dog, in contrast to the many AKC breeds which were once useful working dogs but are no longer--is to keep it separate and apart from the AKC.

 

We take border collies seriously. We try to take good care of our own dogs, learning and sharing knowledge about their health, feeding, training, work and general welfare. And we do our best to look out for the interests of the breed as a whole, by supporting the measures that will keep them the world?s premier herding dog.

 

There is more, which has been quoted elsewhere in this thread. But really, some of the reaction you're seeing here, IMO is because the breeder is an AKC breeder who is apparently breeding for color. Both those things are a huge turn off for me. Just because she has livestock on her farm and works the dogs at home does not mean she is putting working ability, and the health requirements needed to so do, first in her breeding program. People familiar with working dogs will tell you that a dog working on its home turf with its home livestock (they know each other) and following the regular routine can look pretty good. Take it somewhere else--different stock, different field, etc., and the dog may be able to handle it or may be a complete disaster. This is why emphasis is placed on trials at least to some extent. Trials take the dog out of its home situation and require it to perform well on unfamiliar stock and in unfamiliar situations. A good test of a worker.

 

Even all that aside, if a potential buyer of one of my puppies had a health concern about that puppy, I would address that concern promptly and at *my* expense or simply let the buyer out of the contract and give any deposit money back. I wouldn't insist that the buyer take the pup home and go to his/her own vet to have a problem checked if that problem was detected before the puppy ever left my premises. As an example, I had a couple of pups in the litter I had with a lot of white on their heads/ears. I had those puppies BAER tested (for hearing) at my expense before the pups were even offered to the people on my waiting list for puppies. That's the responsible thing to do.

 

J.

[stockdogranch]

Interestingly, yes, lots of AKC pups are sold in the $1000. range. Seriously well-bred ABCA pups from proven working parents generally go for somewhere between $400-$600 (at least in this neck of the woods). So, the discount price of $600 you are quoted for the pup is really on the high end, and for what? It always amazes me that dogs who are bred to "look good" (AKC dogs) are so pricey, while those that are bred to do something (ABCA dogs) and do it well (after training, of course) are so much less. But I digress. I'm sorry you got defensive, and no one is really trying to get on your case, it's just that there are so many HUGE red flags that come with this pup AND this breeder, that it's really frustrating for those of us with experience with lots of BCs...we just can't see how you could even still be considering this pup after all that's been said. It's not just the pup's eyes; it's the breeder who breeds for color, who breeds AKC registered dogs, it's the breeder who does not check the pups' eyes herself. And so I think the remark about baiting comes from the incredulity of the poster who just doesn't get why you're still thinking about this pup. If you walk away, you SHOULD get your $100 back, as there are health problems with this pup. But if you lose $100? Pretty cheap in the grand scheme of things to save yourself lots of grief later on,

A

 

ETA: And, yes, your breeder may have a list much like Diane's, except for #1! Your breeder does not breed for the kind of proven working ability Diane has listed. And I am SURE that Diane's list is not just in any random order--there is a reason that #1 is listed as #1. It's the primary reason, without which, the rest don't matter.

 

And ETA again: I see that Julie and I were cross-posting, and said much the same thing...

[jdarling]

FWIW, I know the lines ... and I know the problems in the lines ... I contacted this breeder quite a while ago and informed her of the problems in the lines (and gave her the links to the OFA site, etc., showing the problems) and asked if she would hip/eye test the grandsire to this pup. She refused.

 

Beyond the fact that this particular breeder was showing in conformation until a couple of years ago, and putting proven working ability aside (not that I ever would when looking for a pup), I would never pay $600 for a pup whose parents haven't been hip or eye tested. What are you paying for? She is not trialing the dogs, so there are no entry fees ... she's not health testing so there are none of those bills ... what are you paying for? $600 worth of puppy food for 5 weeks for one little pup? Seems a bit excessive to me, no?

 

If I go there in 2 weeks and the eye still looks the same she is allowing me to take it to the eye doctor

 

She is "allowing" you? Are you kidding me? Do you not see anything wrong with paying $600 for a pup, and being "allowed" to take it to the vet to find out whether or not it has a genetic defect?

 

Jodi

[Lenajo]

Lets get one thing straight.

 

This is *not* a Rescue.

 

This is a *purchase*.

 

And when you purchase from someone or something (be a company, a store, or a dog breeder) you are financially and ethically condoning how they produced the product (the puppy). If they produced this puppy/product sloppily, haphazardly, with no consideration to the health of the puppy then you are saying, with your money...

 

"this is ok. This what I believe is acceptable".

 

Do you really believe this? I hear indecisiveness in your posts.

 

I love puppies too, and there is nothing I like better than to see a puppy from a lousy breeder get a great home for life. Even with that thought though, I resist...because I refuse to give the breeder financial incentive to produce more puppies in the same way.

 

Saving one, condemns many. Walk away from the puppy. Contribute your money to a better breeder or to rescue.

 

~~~

$600 is outrageous for this caliber of pup btw. You can get the same from the local paper for $200 or less. I would want my $100 deposit back, and if she refuses then consider it money well spent compared to the heartbreak a pup from such a breeder can cause at the vet office later.

[Katelynn & Gang]

First off, $600 is not cheap for a puppy. My dogs are all worked on sheep, OFA, CERF and DNA tested and I only sell for $400 when I have a litter. I know people with National Champions in their kennels who only sell their puppies, with all the same health exams, for $400. $600 isn’t unheard of but it is crazy for just some backyard breeding.

 

Second off, if I bred this puppy in the picture, I’d have already taken it to the vet myself. From the looks of it, there is something very wrong (and many have posted facts that there is probably something wrong). Respectable breeders care about their puppies day in and day out and when something looks that wrong, we take the time and cash to have the puppy checked out ASAP (as in the day we notice it or as soon as we can get in to a specialist). Not two days later or two weeks later, I mean ASAP. We don’t ask our buyers to do our ground work for us, after all, that is why we are breeders and why people buy puppies from us.

 

Third off, if you have rescued before I’d hope you’d understand the whole reasoning behind not buying a puppy from a bad breeder no matter how big your heart is or how poor of health the puppy is in. Would you give money to a friend who is addicted to heroine to go buy some more and encourage the bad addiction? No. It’s the same with any bad breeder; you buy a puppy because of the puppy’s state of health and your want to help. Sure, you saved that one puppy but you also encouraged that breeder to keep breeding sickly puppies because someone, anyone, will feel bad and buy them. So, saving one puppy in return to doom how many more? Is it worth it?

 

Rescues are around because bad breeders are around and bad breeders are around because people give in for all the wrong reasons and buy that poorly bred puppy even when there are knowledgeable people behind them telling them not to because we’ve all seen the slippery slop one too many times.

 

If you want a puppy from a breeder, get one from a ABCA working breeder that does OFA, CERF and DNA testing.

 

Katelynn Sulaica

Breeder & Rescue Volunteer

[hpjoe2001]

FWIW, I know the lines ... and I know the problems in the lines ... I contacted this breeder quite a while ago and informed her of the problems in the lines (and gave her the links to the OFA site, etc., showing the problems) and asked if she would hip/eye test the grandsire to this pup. She refused.

 

Beyond the fact that this particular breeder was showing in conformation until a couple of years ago, and putting proven working ability aside (not that I ever would when looking for a pup), I would never pay $600 for a pup whose parents haven't been hip or eye tested. What are you paying for? She is not trialing the dogs, so there are no entry fees ... she's not health testing so there are none of those bills ... what are you paying for? $600 worth of puppy food for 5 weeks for one little pup? Seems a bit excessive to me, no?

She is "allowing" you? Are you kidding me? Do you not see anything wrong with paying $600 for a pup, and being "allowed" to take it to the vet to find out whether or not it has a genetic defect?

 

Jodi

 

Ha I am in shock right now.I told you the breeder in a PRIVATE e-mail. I should only have guessed that you would come back on the board and throw it around. You Gave me some info about the breeder and I listened. You then sent me to one of your friends. WHO HAS SUPPORTED THIS BREEDER. IT WAS YOUR FRIEND THAT BOUGHT A BORDER COLLIE FROM THEM NOT ME. IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU USED THEM FOR A STUD. AND [edited] BORDER COLLIES THE PLACE YOU SENT ME DOES NOT EVEN WORK THERE DOGS WITH SHEEP THEY DO FLYBALL AND THINGS LIKE THAT. SO PLEASE BACK OFF I JUST WANTED SOME INPUT. NOT FOR YOU TO CALL ME A BAD PERSON AND SAY THAT I AM PROMOTING BAD BREEDERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

So I am the one coming on her and baiting people you sucked me into a private conversation then shared it.

THIS IS WHAT YOU WROTE

 

[private message quoted without permission has been removed]

 

I Found this forum, because I have questions. I will be the first to admit it. I do know that buying a border collie from and AKC breeder is not good due to the fact they breed for looks (barbie)

ABCA Breeds for breed standard

Either way you will get pups that will not come out perfect. That does not mean they are a bad breeder. Those are called genes and know matter how much you try to eliminate the "bad" out of each dog it might appear down the road!

 

I saw something wrong with this pup that is why I came on here. I THANK YOU all very much for explaining (some in a nice way some strait and to the point.) Of why I should not get this pup. I have listened to you I am not going to get it. I had no Idea that other breeders do so much testing That being said, above even in JODI's OWN WORDS she said, " Even testing for everything doesn't guarantee healthy pups, but it sure helps. "

 

 

JOE

[herdcentral]

I was interested in a comment made above

 

For the good of the breed, border collies should be bred only for working ability. The border collie breed was created by farmers and shepherds who wanted to develop a dog which could help them manage their livestock. They bred only to produce good workers, and that singleness of purpose created the breed we love. Changing the way border collies are bred will change the breed itself. Therefore, breeding dogs who have not proven themselves as useful herding dogs, or breeding for appearance/color, or breeding for sports or for "good pets," or breeding for anything other than working ability (which includes the health and temperament necessary for working) is harmful to the breed.

 

I chose my Border Collie because she comes from a well known line of proven agility dogs and I love doing agility. I have no interest in colour or looks, I was just interested in a healthy, well socialised puppy with all the relevant health checks that I can indulge in my favourite sport with. She does come with registration papers (I live in Australia so am not sure on the differences with America) and neither of her parents have ever been shown as they are agility dogs. They also work on their owners farm.

 

I am not really sure how this can be detrimental to the breed as agility is a big sport and the dogs appear to love it, great for fitness for everyone etc, etc. It is just a change in use of those working abilities. Not everyone has a farm or access to herding facilities but love doing sports and working and training their BC and both dogs and owners get a great deal of pleasure from this.

[MrSnappy]

For crying out loud. Where is the head banging emoticon again?

 

herdcentral, READ THE STICKY posted at the top of the forums before you ask that question / comment. Pretty please?

 

RDM

[jdarling]

Good grief.

 

First off, I never mentioned any names here.

 

Second, I didn't use anything at stud. Buzz is the sire to my dog Zip. I had nothing to do with him being bred. I just bought him from the breeder, who later sold Buzz to the woman you are buying your pup from. I have extensively researched his lines.

 

Third, I did not send you to [edited] for any other reason than that they are familiar with the lines because they had a couple of related dogs, and in the litters, there were some problems. That's great that she supports [edited]. Yippee.

 

You came here saying ... "Look at this pup's eyes ... what do I do?" I offered you the information that there are KNOWN problems in the lines.

 

Do what you want with the information.

 

Good luck with your pup.

 

Jodi

[and if anyone finds the head banging emoticon, insert it here too!]

[OffTopic]

Wow. I'm totally confused.

 

I didn't see anything in her post that let on she had had a private conversation with you, yet you're saying she shared your private conversation in her last post? Just by saying she had contacted this breeder in the past? She didn't say who the breeder was, how she knew who the breeder was (until you just told us in your post) or anything that could remotely be considered part of a private conversation.

It seems to me that she was trying to help you above and beyond what everyone else was doing by giving you specific information about the breeder.....while letting everyone in this thread who was trying to help you know that she had specific information about the breeder and that everyone's suspicions were correct.....without giving out the breeders name or any part of your private conversation.

 

And it sounds like (from the private conversation that you disclosed) Jodi's friend does have a dog from the same lines as this breeder and she "sent you to them" so that you could confirm the lines are bad.

[hpjoe2001]

Wow herd central you should not have said that! the people above will think you are a bad person for not having a working dog and that you are supporting bad breeding habits. Thank you Though I agree with you!! Weather you work them or play with them 24/7 You are making a dog happy and giving it a good home. GOOD FOR YOU!

[Journey]

So I am the one coming on her and baiting people you sucked me into a private conversation then shared it.

 

Hey Joe, I am sorry that names actually came into play and you were put on the spot and felt the need to "disclose the kennel yourself". As for "baiting" I initially said that, Anna clarified it nicely, but there was a thread not too long ago - IBCA where it appeared a troll was in our presence and there have been other thread. No, you are a real person, I didn't mean that just that I thought you were not "sincere".

 

I Found this forum, because I have questions. I will be the first to admit it. I do know that buying a border collie from and AKC breeder is not good due to the fact they breed for looks (barbie)

ABCA Breeds for breed standard.

 

The above comment is not accurate - ABCA breeders breed to a "working standard" it's AKC that breed to a phenotype standard. Makes no matter what the dog looks like - it's what they can do on the hills.

 

Either way you will get pups that will not come out perfect. That does not mean they are a bad breeder. Those are called genes and know matter how much you try to eliminate the "bad" out of each dog it might appear down the road!

 

True, but there are test to ensure that you do not intentionally breed bad genes. CERF, DNA for CEA, and others. It's up in the air regarding OFA. However, there is a whole list of other tests that some AKC people will do that imo are unnecessary (issues only in the show bred lines). If you don't work your dog on sheep, prove it, then you don't know if it can truly stand up to the rigors and be worthy of being bed. AKC breeders will tell you their dogs are structurally built to be able to "work" their AKC Standard - look at the halter Quarter horses versus the Cutting Horse, nuff said?

 

" Even testing for everything doesn't guarantee healthy pups, but it sure helps. "

 

Absolutely, there is no way to guarantee it but you sure can hedge it in your favor, prove the dog can work, check the eyes, hips and hearing if warranted.

 

And as for breeding for "agility" "cause they love it and are so good at it" blah blah blah - why do you think? It's because if their "Working" ability....that was so carefully bred for that makes them what they are today.

 

Karen