New 5 week old worried!! HELP!!

[hpjoe2001]

First off I am new here, but not to border collies. I have owned 3 of them one tri rough coat and two black and whites.

 

I am about to get my first RED MERLE /w BLUE EYES. She is 5 weeks old and when I went to go visit her she was running around and playing like normal. I got home and looked at the pictures I noticed her eyes where walleyed (They point to the side like a fish). Is this normal for a 5 week old pup. Are they going to straiten out?

 

 

Here is a picture

[MrSnappy]

No, it is not normal. And they won't likely straighten out on their own.

 

RDM

[hpjoe2001]

Thank you. I thought something was up. I have never seen something like this before. I thought it was maybe the blue eyes . Guess not. IF anyone else has a comment or story please share.

[ShoresDog]

I'll copy the reply I just put in the Ask An Expert section:

 

Yes, this thread should be in the Health section. However, the thread Merle Explosion in the Politics and Culture section has a lot of information and links about the health problems of merles. There you'll find reference to vision problems, which are reported to be more common in heterozygous merles and are especially a problem in homozygous merles.

[hpjoe2001]

thank, you again this is all very helpful. I am picking her up in 3 weeks and taking her for her first exam that very day. I just talk to the breeder and expressed my concern and is being very helpful also. She is standing by her breeding and her pup. So if there are any probs she will take it back. Has anyone else seen this or experienced this before?

[kelpiegirl]

What colour are the parents? Please do some research on possible eye problems in merles. Your pup may not have normal vision. There could also be hearing issues. I would strongly suggest you have this pup checked by a vet now, before you get anymore attached.

[Journey]

thank, you again this is all very helpful. I am picking her up in 3 weeks and taking her for her first exam that very day. I just talk to the breeder and expressed my concern and is being very helpful also. She is standing by her breeding and her pup. So if there are any probs she will take it back. Has anyone else seen this or experienced this before?

 

 

OK, do you know this breeder personally? Or how did you find this pup? Do the parents have CERF's and or DNA results for CEA? Can you take the pup NOW to get her eyes checked and then you don't have to rely on the breeder taking her back and you don't have to go through the heartache? The pup is not too young to have the eyes checked by a Board Certified Ophthalmologist.

 

 

Karen

[hpjoe2001]

OK, do you know this breeder personally? Or how did you find this pup? Do the parents have CERF's and or DNA results for CEA? Can you take the pup NOW to get her eyes checked and then you don't have to rely on the breeder taking her back and you don't have to go through the heartache? The pup is not too young to have the eyes checked by a Board Certified Ophthalmologist.

Karen

 

 

NO, I do not normally go through this breeder. I have always gone through MIDWEST BORDER COLLIE RESCUE. So this one is new to me. I found the breeder through a friend of mine that is getting a pup from her. I am not to sure on the cerf's. I know they are akc pups and are coming with papers Not exactly sure like I said i have always rescued them so papers where never an issue. I am going back in 2 weeks ( a week before I pick her up) to take a closer look. I will ask her these questions. What is the importance of those papers. I have seen the mother the father the grandfather the grandmother and both great grandparents. There no prob with them they are all still living. She is a very trust worthy and open breeder. Just worried. thank you

[Aquarius89]

Just because they are living does not mean they are healthy and well bred dogs. Definitely talk to the breeder more. I have never purchased from a breeder, so am not familiar with what exactly you need request information on. Definitely hips and eyes.

[stockdogranch]

Good for you for going through rescue for your previous dogs! If rescue has worked so far, is there a specific reason you chose to go the breeder route this time?

 

Border Collies have been bred for centuries for their working ability alone. That is what makes them so special, and what created what we all love about the breed. Back in the mid-90's when the AKC decided to recognize the breed (read The Dog Wars by Don McCaig), "border collies" began to be bred to fit the "breed standard"--what this means is that they should be a certain height, weight, have ears that do a particular thing, and so on. It means that they are selectively bred for a LOOK rather than instinct and intelligence. So what happens when you breed for anything other than working ability, is that you begin to lose the very traits that are so admired. You end up with "pretty" dogs who may or may not have any resemblance, ability wise, to a border collie. So by buying a puppy from an AKC breeder, you end up supporting this type of breeding. The fact that this pup is red merle with blue eyes strongly suggests that this breeder is not only breeding for looks, but is breeding for COLOR. Again, any time you breed for anything but proven working ability, you are not really breeding a true border collie, but some offshoot. As Jan (Shoresdog) has pointed out, there are many health problems associated with merle breedings, and she posted a link to a previous discussion of some of these issues.

 

There are lots of BC puppies out there, some to be found in rescue, even. They are all cute, and all need homes desperately. If any of us on the boards here can have any influence, it would be to steer you away from this pup with the health/vision issues it most probably has, and encourage you to find a pup through rescue.

 

Who am I to try to influence your decision? Just somebody who cares deeply and passionately about border collies and the future of the breed,

Anna

[Liz P]

It is the breeder's responsibility to get this pup to a vet before you buy it to make sure it's healthy. I wouldn't buy a dog from someone who wants the buyer to have any potential health problems investigated after the puppy goes home. I would be ashamed to send a pup to a new home that I thought migh not be healthy. Sounds very fishy to me.

[Lenajo]

It is the breeder's responsibility to get this pup to a vet before you buy it to make sure it's healthy. I wouldn't buy a dog from someone who wants the buyer to have any potential health problems investigated after the puppy goes home. I would be ashamed to send a pup to a new home that I thought migh not be healthy. Sounds very fishy to me.

 

Is is the breeders responsibility to sell a healthy pup, but it also important the buyer take their pup to their own vet when they get it home. This protects both parties. In fact, most good breeders who guarantee health of their pups require such.

 

No, the pups eyes are not normal. And if the breeder is not concerned about this I would not walk, but RUN, in another direction. I don't care how "nice" she is. Nice don't pay the vet bills or save your heart when the dog has serious health problems.

 

I consider that the breeder does not consider this pup to be malformed to be a serious and irrefutable red flag of poor breeding practices.

[hpjoe2001]

Good for you for going through rescue for your previous dogs! If rescue has worked so far, is there a specific reason you chose to go the breeder route this time?

 

Border Collies have been bred for centuries for their working ability alone. That is what makes them so special, and what created what we all love about the breed. Back in the mid-90's when the AKC decided to recognize the breed (read The Dog Wars by Don McCaig), "border collies" began to be bred to fit the "breed standard"--what this means is that they should be a certain height, weight, have ears that do a particular thing, and so on. It means that they are selectively bred for a LOOK rather than instinct and intelligence. So what happens when you breed for anything other than working ability, is that you begin to lose the very traits that are so admired. You end up with "pretty" dogs who may or may not have any resemblance, ability wise, to a border collie. So by buying a puppy from an AKC breeder, you end up supporting this type of breeding. The fact that this pup is red merle with blue eyes strongly suggests that this breeder is not only breeding for looks, but is breeding for COLOR. Again, any time you breed for anything but proven working ability, you are not really breeding a true border collie, but some offshoot. As Jan (Shoresdog) has pointed out, there are many health problems associated with merle breedings, and she posted a link to a previous discussion of some of these issues.

 

There are lots of BC puppies out there, some to be found in rescue, even. They are all cute, and all need homes desperately. If any of us on the boards here can have any influence, it would be to steer you away from this pup with the health/vision issues it most probably has, and encourage you to find a pup through rescue.

 

Who am I to try to influence your decision? Just somebody who cares deeply and passionately about border collies and the future of the breed,

Anna

 

 

No, Hey I posted here because I want and value your responses. The bitch is a Red, white and brown (Red tri.) and the stud is a blue merle. So I would assume that is ok. I have lived with Border Collies and am very familer with them there habits, what the breed is like, and the probs that comes along with them (except for merles.) I know that you can not breed or you dont want to breed a merle with a merle, and that they are harder to come about. Unfortunatly that is about all i know about them.

 

2 of the 3 dogs I have rescued have had hip probs so i am well aware of that. Having rescued all my dogs. BREED STANDARD has never been an issue with me. One was from Scotland and was a national hearding champion at the age of 3. The owner wanted to breed her but her hips where too small. Most likely he started to work her before she grew all the way. So she was going to be put to sleep. She ended up living 15 years. The other was from a bitch that was in the yard with 9 other Studs. They did not know who was the stud was so No papers= NO MONEY. 100% border collie but no papers. So people who worry about the ears, muzzle, and everything else and are willing to kill over it. Those are the people that should be killed over it. Not that a dog that did not come out PERFECT.This is not directed torwards anyone just feelings.

 

I Did not go with border collie rescue this time because A guy at work is buying my pups sister so i thought it would be nice to keep the family together. That is pretty much it. I just have not seen this and EYE like that before. Well I will Keep everyone posted thank you all for you help keep the comments coming if you have seen this before or delt with it. Thanks JOE

[hpjoe2001]

Is is the breeders responsibility to sell a healthy pup, but it also important the buyer take their pup to their own vet when they get it home. This protects both parties. In fact, most good breeders who guarantee health of their pups require such.

 

No, the pups eyes are not normal. And if the breeder is not concerned about this I would not walk, but RUN, in another direction. I don't care how "nice" she is. Nice don't pay the vet bills or save your heart when the dog has serious health problems.

 

I consider that the breeder does not consider this pup to be malformed to be a serious and irrefutable red flag of poor breeding practices.

 

 

I just talked to her she does have a vet come look at them. Weather it is a friend or not i am not sure. I am going to look at the pup again in two weeks so. If it is anything obvious I wont even take her home let alone give her money. Have you ever seen this before though?

[Lenajo]

I just talked to her she does have a vet come look at them. Weather it is a friend or not i am not sure. I am going to look at the pup again in two weeks so. If it is anything obvious I wont even take her home let alone give her money. Have you ever seen this before though?

 

I've seen eyes like that in humans with severe neurological damage - either born that way or post a severe stroke.

 

There are a wealth of potential eye problems in merles and their offspring. Malformed pupils and iris, deafness, and mental retardation.

 

You have very kind ideas about keeping the family together but unless you are willing to take great risk I would not take this puppy even if it looks "normal" in a few weeks. Also a word of warning about vets. Just because they are a vet, does not mean they are up to date in specific breed problems or issues. You really have all the information you really need from here, from people who know this breed and it's issues. This puppy has something wrong, and unfortunately defects of the genetic origin dont' usually come alone. Usually one problem, means 2, or 3, or more.

 

If you pay money for this puppy, your money is saying to breeder and the world that this breeding was correct in your eyes. At best...if the pup is much better...I might (but I wouldn't) take the pup for free. And nothing living that needs care is ever really free.

[juliepoudrier]

No, Hey I posted here because I want and value your responses. The bitch is a Red, white and brown (Red tri.) and the stud is a blue merle. So I would assume that is ok.

Well, breeding a red tri to a blue merle is okay in that the combination isn't likely to cause the kind of defects you'd see by breeding merle to merle, BUT (and it's a big one) this is nothing more than someone breeding for COLOR (how else are you gonna get a red merle?) and probably not really caring about anything else that went into the breeding but the color. Although we all have our color (and other looks) preferences, no responsible breeder I know would breed just to get a specific color as this breeder seems to be doing.

 

Just because your coworker is getting a pup isn't really the best reason for you to also get a pup. All you both will be doing is encouraging more irresponsible breeding by this breeder. Both of you would be better off to find a good breeder (heck, the rescue with the unknown sire was probably a better bred dog than these pups), defined as someone who breeds for top-notch working ability (and by work I mean stockwork), and get a pup from them. Please remember that many unethical breeders have guarantees but count on you getting the pup home and falling in love and being unable to relinquish the pup back to the breeder should something be found wrong with it.

 

If you have your heart set on a red merle, even those can be found in rescue. Look at this handsome fellow.

 

J.

[Tassie]

6 weeks of age is a normal time for pups' eyes to be examined by a Board certified veterinary ophthalmologist - it would not be unreasonable for you to ask the breeder to do this - you would then get an eye exam certificate from the ophthalmologist. At least in Oz, this is not something that can be done by a normal veterinarian.

[kelpiegirl]

There is a term for this non-alignment of pupils- like this dog has. I would also say that one eye looks larger than the other. The red tri- i wonder if this mother is actually a red merle....

 

Okay, the pupil thing is called "corectopia" take a look at this picture

 

http://www.ashgi.org/color/PHOTOS/EyeAnoma...ntric%20(2).jpg

[hpjoe2001]

There is a term for this non-alignment of pupils- like this dog has. I would also say that one eye looks larger than the other. The red tri- i wonder if this mother is actually a red merle....

 

Okay, the pupil thing is called "corectopia" take a look at this picture

 

http://www.ashgi.org/color/PHOTOS/EyeAnoma...ntric%20(2).jpg

 

 

Thank you very much for that! That is what i was looking for!!

[mbc1963]

My non-merle tri-color is a tiny bit wall-eyed, like this pup. My first response was going to be not to worry too much, b/c my dog's vision is fine. But... my dog's two pupils are lined up well, and this pup seems to have one pupil higher than the other. Too bad!

 

Mary

[Journey]

Here's some info directly from the link that Julie provided;

 

Merle Ocular Dysgenesis

Dogs affected with this condition will exhibit some combination of the following: Microphthalmia, eccentric pupils, coloboma or other irregularities of the iris, lens luxation, cataract, retinal dysplasia or detachment, persistent pupillary membrane, equatorial staphyloma and lack of a tapetum. Since the condition is produced solely by breeding merle-to-merle, it can be avoided by not doing so. When two merles are bred together, breeders commonly cull puppies displaying amounts of white markings deemed "excessive" by the breed standards. While this will eliminate most affected pups, not every homozygous merle will have "too much white." The actual status of such dogs may not be known until, and unless, their eyes are examined. The presence of cryptic or "phantom" merles, though rare, can further cloud the picture. These dogs do not appear merle at first glance. Some will appear non-merle on even close inspection because their areas of merling are obscured by white markings or were on the tail, which was docked. Everyone who has such a dog and uses it for breeding must keep in mind that it is a merle and, if bred to another merle, will produce puppies with merle ocular dysgenesis.

 

Makes me question the dam - is she a tri or a merle?

 

Karen

[hpjoe2001]

My non-merle tri-color is a tiny bit wall-eyed, like this pup. My first response was going to be not to worry too much, b/c my dog's vision is fine. But... my dog's two pupils are lined up well, and this pup seems to have one pupil higher than the other. Too bad!

 

Mary

 

 

How is your dog doing today? How old is it? Any probs at all?

[hpjoe2001]

Here's some info directly from the link that Julie provided;

 

Merle Ocular Dysgenesis

Dogs affected with this condition will exhibit some combination of the following: Microphthalmia, eccentric pupils, coloboma or other irregularities of the iris, lens luxation, cataract, retinal dysplasia or detachment, persistent pupillary membrane, equatorial staphyloma and lack of a tapetum. Since the condition is produced solely by breeding merle-to-merle, it can be avoided by not doing so. When two merles are bred together, breeders commonly cull puppies displaying amounts of white markings deemed "excessive" by the breed standards. While this will eliminate most affected pups, not every homozygous merle will have "too much white." The actual status of such dogs may not be known until, and unless, their eyes are examined. The presence of cryptic or "phantom" merles, though rare, can further cloud the picture. These dogs do not appear merle at first glance. Some will appear non-merle on even close inspection because their areas of merling are obscured by white markings or were on the tail, which was docked. Everyone who has such a dog and uses it for breeding must keep in mind that it is a merle and, if bred to another merle, will produce puppies with merle ocular dysgenesis.

 

Makes me question the dam - is she a tri or a merle?

 

Karen

[sheepandakom]

Makes me question the dam - is she a tri or a merle?

 

Another question...are all the puppies in the litter merles? If so, mom, if I remember correctly, is a merle even if she doesn't appear to be. A woman I know through flyball had a phantom merle with only a bit of merle under his belly and I had a foster that I called a phantom tri. He appeared to be black and white. However, he had a tan strip on the back of one of his front legs. It was about 1" wide by 6" long.

 

Emily

[mbc1963]

How is your dog doing today? How old is it? Any probs at all?

 

He's about 4, and as far as I know, he's fine. He sees as well as any dog I've had (moving things well, still things not well) and has great hearing. I can't vouch for his hips at this point - never been checked - but he's a street dog I got through a shelter, so I figure I get what I get - no breeder to complain about. His eyes are just the tiniest bit wall-eyed... maybe by only 2 mm more than they seem like they "should" be. Which may very well be why he ended up a street dog - not physically perfect. ::Sigh::

 

Mary