New 5 week old worried!! HELP!!

[hpjoe2001]

here is the mom and dad with pups

just mom

[hpjoe2001]

He's about 4, and as far as I know, he's fine. He sees as well as any dog I've had (moving things well, still things not well) and has great hearing. I can't vouch for his hips at this point - never been checked - but he's a street dog I got through a shelter, so I figure I get what I get - no breeder to complain about. His eyes are just the tiniest bit wall-eyed... maybe by only 2 mm more than they seem like they "should" be. Which may very well be why he ended up a street dog - not physically perfect. ::Sigh::

 

Mary

 

 

Thank you

[C Crocker]

I just talked to her she does have a vet come look at them. Weather it is a friend or not i am not sure. I am going to look at the pup again in two weeks so. If it is anything obvious I wont even take her home let alone give her money. Have you ever seen this before though?

 

 

 

I would make sure that friend is a board certified opthamalogist , not just her local vet to look at these eyes. This is standard operating procedure for any border collie pup between the ages of 6-8 weeks--it is a very small window. This is done by responsible breeders with every pup in every litter, not just those with what seems to be a potential problem.

 

Do not let your breeder handle things with this situation, as from your posts, sounds as though that exam is about to be overlooked and soon it will be too late to do it.

 

If they are offended when you ask if this is an eye specialist that will be checking this pup specifically between 6-8 weeks, thun run away as fast as you can from this situation. You are not picking on them--this is what should be done with every pup.

 

 

Good luck.

 

Carolyn

[kelpiegirl]

Just to add a little more info....

 

http://www.ashgi.org/color/Cryptic_Merles.html

[kelpiegirl]

How many pups in the litter, and what colour are they?

 

 

Thank you

[Journey]

How many pups in the litter, and what colour are they?

 

 

Based on the picture he posted - all but one are obvious Merle, the other I can't tell, nor can I tell if the bitch is a Merle.

 

Karen

[Liz P]

Another question...are all the puppies in the litter merles? If so, mom, if I remember correctly, is a merle even if she doesn't appear to be. A woman I know through flyball had a phantom merle with only a bit of merle under his belly and I had a foster that I called a phantom tri. He appeared to be black and white. However, he had a tan strip on the back of one of his front legs. It was about 1" wide by 6" long.

 

Emily

 

You are thinking of a breeding between a double merle and a solid color dog (MM x mm = all Mm merle). In a breeding between 2 merles you would get 25% MM, 50% Mm and 25% mm (non merle). That is why some Aussie people risk a double merle breeding (statistically only 1 in 4 will need to be culled). Solid colored pups in the litter doesn't mean that it was not a merle x phantom merle breeding. I think it is somewhat more likely in this case that the single dose of merle was enough to cause the deformity in this pup.

 

Let me remove the emotions from this situation and ask you, if you were buying a car and noticed a loud rattle while test driving it, would you still buy it if the dealer said, "Buy it anyway and take it to your own mechanic, if something is wrong we will deal with it then." At least in that case you are protected by lemon laws and will not be emotionally attached to your purchase.

[ShoresDog]

... in that case you will not be emotionally attached to your purchase.

But in this case you most certainly will, and we all know how painful it is if one of our dependents has a health problem. I admire you for coming here for advice and for listening to it, even though I think it's clear you're getting some pretty strong recommendations to BEWARE! This puppy will be sold whether or not you buy her. But there may be a healthy young border collie needing a home, in a shelter or rescue, who wouldn't have the opportunity, especially to get a home like yours with experience with the breed. Sadly, we all know how many BCs are cast off at 12-18 months when their true energy level and their time demand become apparent.

[hpjoe2001]

How many pups in the litter, and what colour are they?

 

 

8 pups which i think is a not normal for a first liter. Three of those are black and white, one is red and white and the Rest of them are Merles (blue or red).

[hpjoe2001]

But in this case you most certainly will, and we all know how painful it is if one of our dependents has a health problem. I admire you for coming here for advice and for listening to it, even though I think it's clear you're getting some pretty strong recommendations to BEWARE! This puppy will be sold whether or not you buy her. But there may be a healthy young border collie needing a home, in a shelter or rescue, who wouldn't have the opportunity, especially to get a home like yours with experience with the breed. Sadly, we all know how many BCs are cast off at 12-18 months when their true energy level and their time demand become apparent.

 

 

I agree with you totally. I am really aware of the predicament that I am in, and dealing with border collie rescue so much I am fully aware of how cruel owners and even BREEDERS can be. If things dont work out. I will definitly being looking to take on a rescue again.

[hpjoe2001]

Just to add a little more info....

 

http://www.ashgi.org/color/Cryptic_Merles.html

 

 

thank you for the info

[laurie etc]

thank you for the info

 

Just catching up with this thread - I think it's pretty obvious that this pup is NOT from a merle/merle breeding (4 solid pups/4 merle pups), but there can be birth defects in any litter - any color, and from what I've read, this kind of "walleye" defect might be more common with less pigmented (more white) dogs. Puppy eyes can appear a bit more widespread than adult eyes, but the pupils should be symmetrical.

My daughter has an older double merle that has dysgenesis affected eyes. Even though she was a talented agility dog, she really can not see in bright sunlight, as she does not have the proper nerve connections that cause her pupils to constrict, and her pupils are not symmetric (like your merle pup). Unfortunately, I don't have a good picture of her eyes close up. She does fine in dim light, but has some of the related double merle internal issues (bladder and organ malformations) which have been problematic in her old age.

Possibly this breeder isn't familiar with the need to have puppy eyes checked, but maybe you could educate her that an eye exam for BC pups between 6 and 12 weeks is the norm. The red merle pup could go on to live a totally normal life, but better to know up front if there is truly a handicap, or just a cosmetic oddity.

Laurie

[Liz P]

I think it's pretty obvious that this pup is NOT from a merle/merle breeding (4 solid pups/4 merle pups)

 

Mm x Mm = 25% MM double merle, 50% Mm merle and 25% mm non merle. So in fact you can't say without a doubt that the dam was not merle (but I don't think she was).

[hpjoe2001]

Just catching up with this thread - I think it's pretty obvious that this pup is NOT from a merle/merle breeding (4 solid pups/4 merle pups), but there can be birth defects in any litter - any color, and from what I've read, this kind of "walleye" defect might be more common with less pigmented (more white) dogs. Puppy eyes can appear a bit more widespread than adult eyes, but the pupils should be symmetrical.

My daughter has an older double merle that has dysgenesis affected eyes. Even though she was a talented agility dog, she really can not see in bright sunlight, as she does not have the proper nerve connections that cause her pupils to constrict, and her pupils are not symmetric (like your merle pup). Unfortunately, I don't have a good picture of her eyes close up. She does fine in dim light, but has some of the related double merle internal issues (bladder and organ malformations) which have been problematic in her old age.

Possibly this breeder isn't familiar with the need to have puppy eyes checked, but maybe you could educate her that an eye exam for BC pups between 6 and 12 weeks is the norm. The red merle pup could go on to live a totally normal life, but better to know up front if there is truly a handicap, or just a cosmetic oddity.

Laurie

 

Thank you very much. That was very helpful as you can tell I am worried about this. I have never delt with a merle to me from all the strange probs that go on it seems like a whole new breed almost. Thank you for the help again

[juliepoudrier]

hpjoe,

Have you already committed (paid money) to this pup? If not, I think the smart thing to do would be to walk away. I know it's hard to do when you've already fallen for the little thing, but I don't think it's really worth all the worry and angst you're going through right now. Why not just find another puppy if it's a pup you really want? As others have said before, this doesn't actually strike me as a real responsible breeder, so why not cut your losses now? As rescues will attest, there are lots and lots of puppies being bred. If you keep looking you can probably find a merle if that's what you really want, and one that is healthy.

 

I have never delt with a merle to me from all the strange probs that go on it seems like a whole new breed almost.

Good working breedings aside, in which you are much less likely to find merle pups, I have to say that merle in and of itself is not a huge issue. The problem arises when folks breed for the demand (in this case puppy buyers who want merle puppies) and do not take care to address the *potential* health problems that could arise in merle dogs. A well-bred merle will be as healthy as the next border collie, in general. But the problem is that plenty of breeders out there just go about producing the color willy nilly with no real thought to the steps they could take to ensure the health of their litters. The fact this this breeder is unconcerned about the pup's eyes indicates to me that either the breeder doesn't care or doesn't know better, and neither is very good from a puppy buyer's perspective IMO.

 

J.

[laurie etc]

hpjoe,

Have you already committed (paid money) to this pup? If not, I think the smart thing to do would be to walk away. I know it's hard to do when you've already fallen for the little thing, but I don't think it's really worth all the worry and angst you're going through right now. Why not just find another puppy if it's a pup you really want? As others have said before, this doesn't actually strike me as a real responsible breeder, so why not cut your losses now? As rescues will attest, there are lots and lots of puppies being bred. If you keep looking you can probably find a merle if that's what you really want, and one that is healthy.

Good working breedings aside, in which you are much less likely to find merle pups, I have to say that merle in and of itself is not a huge issue. The problem arises when folks breed for the demand (in this case puppy buyers who want merle puppies) and do not take care to address the *potential* health problems that could arise in merle dogs. A well-bred merle will be as healthy as the next border collie, in general. But the problem is that plenty of breeders out there just go about prodcuing the color willy nilly with no real thought to the steps they could take to ensure the health of their litters. The fact this this breeder is unconcerned about the pup's eyes indicates to me that either the breeder doesn't care or doesn't know better, and neither is very good from a puppy buyer's perspective IMO.

 

J.

 

I totally agree with Julie here- especially if you don't 't have a contract in place or anything invested in this particular pup.

I happen to own a blue merle, quite by accident, and wouldn't trade her for the world. But I'm extremely color blind when it comes to working ability, health, temperament and longevity; and breeders who are primarily breeding for "color" often are willing to overlook those most important things. Laurie

[ShoresDog]

Mm x Mm = 25% MM double merle, 50% Mm merle and 25% mm non merle. So in fact you can't say without a doubt that the dam was not merle (but I don't think she was).

Remember that those percentages are just the average over many, many litters. In any one litter, the percentages could vary wildly from the overall average of 25%/50%/25%. Each coin flip is independent of every other coin flip.

[Mojo]

To the original poster: I am so sorry that your chosen pup looks like she has a congenital problem. I think what everyone has told you about staying away from this breeder and that poor pup is extremely good advice. I would also counsel your friend to stay away from this litter.

 

As far as I can tell, what that pup has is called "strabismus." Here's an article:

 

http://www.petplace.com/dogs/strabismus-in-dogs/page1.aspx

 

Excerpts: "Strabismus is misdirection of the eye. Instead of pointing forward in a direction parallel to the nose, the eye is turned either inward towards the nose (esotropia) or outward away from the nose (exotropia). Strabismus may be caused by an abnormality in the muscles behind the eye, or in the nerves that control those muscles. With strabismus, only the direction of the eye is changed, the position of the eye within the orbit (eye socket) is usually normal....Strabismus can occur in animals of all ages. It may be present at birth and reflect abnormalities in the development of the eye, the muscles of the eye, or the brain...Or strabismus may develop later in life. The onset of strabismus in an adult animal that was previously normal can represent a serious problem behind the eye.

 

Causes:

Congenital (present at birth) strabismus

Hydrocephalus (water on the brain), especially in puppies

Certain toxins causing paralysis of the nerves, such as botulism and tick paralysis

Inflammation of the nerves from diseases such as coon hound paralysis (polyradiculoneuritis), diseases of the inner and middle ear, or the center of the brain that coordinates eye movement

Trauma, inflammation or scarring of the extraocular muscles

Cancer of the brain or nerves to the eye

 

What to watch for:

One or both eyes are pointed in an abnormal direction.

The movement of the two eyes may not be coordinated or one eye may fail to move properly.

Other neurologic signs may be noticeable, such as differences in pupil size, weakness or difficultly walking, tilting of the head to one side, falling or turning to one side.

Possibly mental dullness or seizures

Possibly lethargy and decreased appetite

 

Treatment:

Treatment is aimed at correcting the underlying cause of the problem, so it is important to reach a specific diagnosis if at all possible. Some causes of strabismus affect only the eye and are not life threatening, while other causes indicate a serious underlying neurologic or systemic problem that requires prompt medical attention. There is no way to prevent the development of strabismus. When the strabismus is due to a neurologic problem that affects the middle or inner ear, or area of the brain that coordinates movement, then your dog may also experience severe dizziness (vertigo). Protect him from falling, rolling or otherwise hurting himself. Strabismus that is congenital (present at birth) may require periodic monitoring through out the dog's life. If your pet was normal before and suddenly develops strabismus, seek medical attention promptly."

[hpjoe2001]

Thank you If I go there in 2 weeks and the eye still looks the same she is allowing me to take it to the eye doctor you have all been very very helpful still if anyone has had a dog like this before keep the comments coming. I have never delt with this kind of prob so any advice is always welcome. I keep everyone updated thank you!!!!!!!!

[Aquarius89]

Just a side note... we may want to remember that the "pupils not lining up thing" could have just been the photo, too. Unless the OP has stated they are actually not aligned.

[Lenajo]

Thank you If I go there in 2 weeks and the eye still looks the same she is allowing me to take it to the eye doctor you have all been very very helpful still if anyone has had a dog like this before keep the comments coming. I have never delt with this kind of prob so any advice is always welcome. I keep everyone updated thank you!!!!!!!!

 

After all you've been told I don't understand why you are going back period.

 

This is not a breeding, or a breeder, you should be contributing too. At least not if you have the best interests of the breed at heart.

 

If you want a merle, or a merle puppy, there are better ways, and better breeders (preferably rescuers) to deal with.

 

Even if you went back and the pup was normal, I wouldn't suggest you take it home. Ethically for the reasons stated above and before, and emotionally/financially - because pups with problems can shatter your heart, not to metion your budget.

[kelpiegirl]

Yes, she did- look at the original post- she termed the eyes "wall eyed" But, it is clear that the pupils do not line up.

 

Just a side note... we may want to remember that the "pupils not lining up thing" could have just been the photo, too. Unless the OP has stated they are actually not aligned.

[hpjoe2001]

After all you've been told I don't understand why you are going back period.

 

This is not a breeding, or a breeder, you should be contributing too. At least not if you have the best interests of the breed at heart.

 

If you want a merle, or a merle puppy, there are better ways, and better breeders (preferably rescuers) to deal with.

 

Even if you went back and the pup was normal, I wouldn't suggest you take it home. Ethically for the reasons stated above and before, and emotionally/financially - because pups with problems can shatter your heart, not to metion your budget.

 

The reason I am going back, Is the same reason that I rescue dogs... I have a heart. Half of the better breeders out there are willing to kill a whole litter of pups just because they can not get the prob papers due to the fact that a female got into a yard full of males. In going back it will only prove to me and everyone else tha maybe I got a bad camera angle ($1000.oo camera and no angle) She is very good to her dogs she has sheep she works them. and the ones that dont heard she takes them out on her 28 acre property. Everyone has something good and bad to say and i was expecting that. When you make a rescue there is no guarantee that you are getting a well behaved dog or one that might live to be 15 but you do it anyways cause you have heart. Merle or not makes no difference to me. I would like a pup that I could train. I have entered in a contract with this lady. Which even Resuce places have so. I have to honor that before I move on. If/when It will be my 4th rescued border collie.

[hpjoe2001]

When i was there last week the eye did not seem all that messed up. The dog is very smart is already paper trained. They all know sit and stay too. When I looked at the photos on the car ride home is when I got worried.

[Mojo]

Yes, she did- look at the original post- she termed the eyes "wall eyed" But, it is clear that the pupils do not line up.

 

I think the distinction is whether or not the eye itself is facing forward (strabismus) versus whether or not the pupil is in the center of the colored iris (corectopia, or eccentric pupil). Agreed--it is hard to tell from the picture whether or not corectopia is present, but it could be. I am pretty confident about the strabismus, as the dog's right eye is clearly looking off to the side while the dog's left eye is facing forward and looking straight at the camera. Now, as to what is CAUSING the defect, I don't know, but I found it troubling that hydrocephalus in puppies is listed as a top cause.

 

To the OP: truly, I understand your want/desire to help this puppy, as I think everyone else who has posted in this thread does--we all want to help, which is why we have offered you our advice. In my opinion, if you really want to help this puppy, urge your breeder to take the pup to the vet NOW, not in two weeks, at HER expense. The fact that she has not already done so is quite troubling. She should be able to tell just from looking at the pup whether or not one eye is still off--no cameras necessary. She can try moving her finger in front of the pup's face from left to right to see if both eyes track normally (i.e., if both eyes move together at the same time as they follow her finger, or if the one bad eye continues to be off). If it really is hydrocephalus (and for the pup's sake, I hope not), it will only progress in the coming weeks, and result in the mental and balance defects listed in the article. The breeder, in fact, might even be able to notice mental/behavioral status changes in that pup already. If it turns out not to be hydrocephalus, and "just" congenital malformation of the nervous system, it still is a serious problem, considering the extent of the strabismus seen in the photo you posted--the dog will never have normal vision. If the breeder is willing to give the pup to you for free, and YOU are willing to take on the responsibility of a dog with potential eyesight problems, balance problems, and mental problems for the rest of its natural life, you are only to be commended, in my opinion....but you shouldn't pay one red cent to the breeder for such a pup. If anything, she should help contribute to the dog's veterinary care.