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New 5 week old worried!! HELP!!


hpjoe2001
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Jodi and offtopic, Yes me and jodi have been having a private conversation. I figured that she was trying to help me out and she did. Then when I come back on this forum and she had post that she new the breeder and had told me to stay away and i wasn't that is basically saying look this guy has no idea what is is doing and if you have not read I have been chewed out for the last 2-3 pages with people saying why the hell don't you ask for your money back. Well guess what if you have no learned it buy now there are two sides to every story. I was told she did not work here dogs. I went there. I know for a facted she does. She takes care of her dogs. She her self has 22 resuces on her property. So for you to beat me down or this breeder down is not cool.

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Hey Joe, I am sorry that names actually came into play and you were put on the spot and felt the need to "disclose the kennel yourself". As for "baiting" I initially said that, Anna clarified it nicely, but there was a thread not too long ago - IBCA where it appeared a troll was in our presence and there have been other thread. No, you are a real person, I didn't mean that just that I thought you were not "sincere".

The above comment is not accurate - ABCA breeders breed to a "working standard" it's AKC that breed to a phenotype standard. Makes no matter what the dog looks like - it's what they can do on the hills.

True, but there are test to ensure that you do not intentionally breed bad genes. CERF, DNA for CEA, and others. It's up in the air regarding OFA. However, there is a whole list of other tests that some AKC people will do that imo are unnecessary (issues only in the show bred lines). If you don't work your dog on sheep, prove it, then you don't know if it can truly stand up to the rigors and be worthy of being bed. AKC breeders will tell you their dogs are structurally built to be able to "work" their AKC Standard - look at the halter Quarter horses versus the Cutting Horse, nuff said?

Absolutely, there is no way to guarantee it but you sure can hedge it in your favor, prove the dog can work, check the eyes, hips and hearing if warranted.

 

And as for breeding for "agility" "cause they love it and are so good at it" blah blah blah - why do you think? It's because if their "Working" ability....that was so carefully bred for that makes them what they are today.

 

Karen

 

 

THANK YOU FOR EXPLAINING. I did not come on here to fight, or say that everyone is wrong and that I'm right. I came on here to get answears. I thank you all for taking the time to respond so quickly. We all share a love for the breed and animals in general. It is nice to go some where and get info. so quick.

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Good for you for going through rescue for your previous dogs! If rescue has worked so far, is there a specific reason you chose to go the breeder route this time?

 

I also recently got a pup through a breeder, after unsuccessfully trying to adopt through a rescue. They wouldn't let us adopt because we didn't have our property fenced. I planned on fencing the property, and just this week had a hidden fence installed (6 months later), but at the time, no fence - no rescue. Our 15 year old had passed in April and I wanted the dog and didn't want to wait until after the fence was installed.

 

PS: Our 5 year old did come to us through a rescue org and he is the best dog I've ever had.

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You know what, Joe? I'm pretty new to this forum myself and occasionally I'll start reading a thread where a newbie asks a question and it sometimes seems like the whole board "mounts up" and descends on the person in a whirlwind of advice. It looks pretty intimidating from just a readers viewpoint, so I guess it's really intimidating if you're the newbie asking the question.

 

So here's how this whole thread looked to me.

You: Is something wrong with this pup?

Everyone: Yes.

You: But what if there isn't?

Everyone: There is.

You: But I want it.

Everyone: You'll be sorry.

You: But, but, but, but, but, but.

 

You asked a question, but you didn't get the answer you really wanted (and I'd bet no one really blames you for that, it's a cute puppy and puppies are hard to turn down). So you kept rephrasing the question. Still not the answer you wanted. So you rephrased again and started getting defensive.

So did everyone else, because dude, you were being obtuse.

 

Seriously, I'm glad you're not getting this puppy.

And I wish you good luck finding another one.

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I chose my Border Collie because she comes from a well known line of proven agility dogs and I love doing agility. I have no interest in colour or looks, I was just interested in a healthy, well socialised puppy with all the relevant health checks that I can indulge in my favourite sport with. ... I am not really sure how this can be detrimental to the breed as agility is a big sport and the dogs appear to love it, great for fitness for everyone etc, etc. It is just a change in use of those working abilities. Not everyone has a farm or access to herding facilities but love doing sports and working and training their BC and both dogs and owners get a great deal of pleasure from this.

Sigh.... Herdcentral, since I suspect you are new(ish) to this forum and aren't aware of the numerous times comments such as yours have been addressed, so for your sake, I'll address them again, starting with another bullet from the Read This First thread:

 

From READ THIS FIRST: Border collie owners who don't use their dogs to work livestock are not second-class citizens. Because border collies have been bred for a very demanding job, they have the physical, mental and emotional traits to be good at almost anything a dog can do. They generally don't make good pets for people who have little interest in a dog and little time to spend with it. But for people who are prepared to devote a lot of time and attention to their dog(s), border collies can be excellent companions, and excellent partners for a variety of activities, both formal and informal. If you love your border collie, and give him/her a good home, you are doing right by your dog. Just leave the breeding to those who do train and work their dogs on livestock, and who have the knowledge to breed to the working standard [emphasis added].

 

Those of you who have heard this a thousand times can tune out now....

 

Border collies excel at dog sports like agililty precisely because they have been purpose-bred over a couple of centuries. The things you like about a border collie for agility or other sports--focus, intensity, mental stability, athleticism, intelligence, biddability, speed--are there because farmers and shepherds bred them that way for a purpose, and that purpose was to work livestock. Those qualities still exist in a complete package in working-bred dogs today. But just as with conformation breeding, when people start to breed dogs with other goals in mind (looks, sport) they are of necessity breeding away from working ability (for example, a flyball breeder might simply pick two dogs with a lot of speed and a lot of intensity without thinking anything of the balance of traits that's necessary for a temperamentally well-rounded dog). They are forgetting that it was the breeding for working abililty that made the breed the type of dog that excels at things other than its original purpose. So while it's okay to use the dogs for another purpose (yes, we all know that not everyone owns livestock they can work their dogs on), it's not okay to breed them for another purpose. That's what the comments about breeding for working ability are all about, and that's why we feel that breeding for something other than working ability is detrimental to the breed.

 

There was a thread in a different section (politics maybe) about the British kennel club having to reduce the difficulty of its herding tests (tests that weren't difficult to start with) because too few conformation champions were able to pass the test and so gain a dual championship. Why, in the country where this amazing dog was developed, would that be the case? Because breeders stopped breeding for working ability and started breeding for something else (standardized looks).

 

If it's been said once here, it's been said a thousand times: No one cares or looks down on what sort of activities individuals choose to undertake with their border collies. Where we draw the line is at breeding them. Breeding for working ability has served the farmer well, and has also produced a type of dog that can do many, many other things. Start breeding for those many other things though, and you'll soon have a breed that's nothing like the original. Keep breeding lines of agility dogs, show dogs, flyball dogs or whatever, and genetics being what they are, the dog's characteristics will start to shift away from the original--the one that excelled at many things.

 

For those of you looking, here it is: banghead.gif

 

 

Joe,

FWIW, I don't think Jodi "outed" anyone and frankly I'm surprised at your vehement reaction to her post. I took her post to mean that she knew of the breeder and had some knowledge about the health issues with those lines. I don't understand why you took it the way you did, claimed she had posted information from private e-mail, which she did not appear to do, and then proceeded to name two breeders here, doing basically what you accused her of doing. I do hope you sort things out and find a suitable puppy that's healthy and from a good, reputable breeder.

 

J.

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Sigh.... Herdcentral, since I suspect you are new(ish) to this forum and aren't aware of the numerous times comments such as yours have been addressed, so for your sake, I'll address them again, starting with another bullet from the Read This First thread:

Those of you who have heard this a thousand times can tune out now....

 

 

If it's been said once here, it's been said a thousand times: No one cares or looks down on what sort of activities individuals choose to undertake with their border collies. Where we draw the line is at breeding them. Breeding for working ability has served the farmer well, and has also produced a type of dog that can do many, many other things. Start breeding for those many other things though, and you'll soon have a breed that's nothing like the original. Keep breeding lines of agility dogs, show dogs, flyball dogs or whatever, and genetics being what they are, the dog's characteristics will start to shift away from the original--the one that excelled at many things.

 

 

 

I do understand what you are saying and I apologise in advance if I cause more head banging but I fail to see how continuing to select from dogs that are sound, athletic with good temperaments and are great at agility regardless of their ability to work stock is a bad thing for people competing in agility or the BC.

 

We have plenty of purpose bred top agility dogs that come from lines of dogs that havnt seen a sheep for generations and also working bred dogs of the type that you are describing and I dont see any difference in the dogs ability. We also have champion show dogs competing and a couple of those are brilliant at agility. I just struggle with the concept that a dog has to be good at working stock to be good at everything else.

 

Who says an agility bred dog wont retain the work ethic and intelligence of the BC albeit in a different context?

 

I will do some more reading as my mind is not closed to this concept I just need to get my own mind around it. I am new to the BC and am still learning and I do have an understanding of genetics so I need to give this more thought.

 

I also own ACDS and they are a far cry from what they were when they mustered wild cattle and they have been largely replaced as a working dog by modern mustering techniques like helicopters. They are still a great dog and my show bred dog is athletic and smart and a wonderful companion and extremely verasatile as a sporting dog.

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herdcentral - I'm in Australia too, and here you have to go out of your way to see what proper, working bred Border Collies can do - you really need to go watch some farm work, since the 3 sheep trialling is IMHO very over-formalised and artificial.. What proper working bred Border Collies can do on atock is with maybe the odd exception, chalk and cheese from what show/performance bred BCs can do on stock - and usually the latter will only be able to do what they do after a lot of training.

 

I have a little Barbie Collie bitch, from breeders who did breed primarily for work ethic/sound conformation, but not from stock-working lines. We had the chance to learn to work sheep, from a friend with ISDS/ABCA line working Border Collies and a sheep farm. With a LOT of work and patience on my trainer's part, and mine, my little bitch learnt enough to be a reasonably handy little farm dog, capable of doing some useful work with a mob of 200 or so ewes. I was, and am, very proud of her, and grateful to have had the opportunity - BUT - there was absolutely no comparison between what my girl could do after a year of training, and what my friend's proper working dogs could do with very much less training. THAT is the complex instinctual behaviour which is likely to be lost in a couple fo generations of breeding for anything other than stock-working ability. (BTW, my bitch is also a good little agility dog, in spite of her handler, and enjoys tracking as well - and of course, she was spayed at 6 months,)

 

In the Australian context, where the working and bench dog divide is almost complete, ANKC breeding for sound conformation and a strong work ethic is better than just breeding for looks/color, but it still leaves the proper stock working stuff out of the equation - as pointed out in relation to the KC dogs in the UK - and there's less excuse there, since AFAIK, ISDS registered dogs can be registered KC.

 

hpjoe2001

 

It was interesting to note on the website which I think is the one of the breeder you have been dealing with, that the pedigrees of the dogs are not listed - no comment is made about ancestry, except that Australian/New Zealand dogs are not used. The lack of pedigree information seems strange to me, from an AKC breeder.

 

Oh, and FYI, my little bitch has mild Collie Eye Anomaly (choroidal hypoplasia) whcih was picked up when the litter had their routine exam by an ophthalmologist at 6 weeks. Her breeder immediately notified me, and gave me the option to pull out of the purchase, and/or to speak directly with the ophthalmologist. I did the latter, was assured that functionally there was not likely to be a problem, and since she was not going to be bred anyway, I went ahead with the purchase - though the breeder discounted the price by 10% - her decision, since she was disappointed that she was selling me a pup who was 'not perfect'.

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I just struggle with the concept that a dog has to be good at working stock to be good at everything else.

 

The foundation of breeding for stock work is what has made the BC the dog that it is. Breeding for stock work is what produced top agility and obedience dogs in the first place.

 

Dogs don't have to be good at stock to be good at something else, but stock work is the ultimate test for the traits that makes the BC the dog that it is - the intelligence, the bidability, the althleticism, the work ethic. And is breeding for work ogrinally produced the the BC, why would you not want to contintue to breed to those standards?

 

When breeding for sports you don't have to take in to account all the factors that have gone into forming the breed. When you're not taking those into consideration when breeding you start to loose bit by bit some of the important attributes of the BC. Sure you could be producing lovely dogs with nice temperments that that can compete in sports and be family companions, but they're still missing a piece of the puzzle the breed originally had.

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I have one quick thing to say. You came here for advice and you got it. If you really came here for approval for buying a pup from this previously described breeder you will not find it. Buying a puppy from an unethical breeder because you "have a heart," only shows narrow vision for that one dog. No one here likes to see any dog homeless. Believe me, the people that have given you their two cents have big beautiful caring (though slightly wool covered :rolleyes: ) hearts of their own and they focus their vision on the breed as a whole. These boards clearly state that they are here advocating a high level of breeding that has zilch to do with looks, sports, or companionship. As someone who has learned a great deal about the breed from these boards I appreciate all that they say... even if they have to say it over, and over, and over again (lol seriously you guys should just keep comments saved to repaste). If you wanted an answer that did not include the "politics" of the breed perhaps this was a poor website to post on. Maybe a nuetral site like dogster could have created a more comfortable discussion. If you post on these boards you should expect these types of responces.

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She her self has 22 resuces on her property.

 

 

Joe,

 

You have been given a lot of very good, knowledgeable advice from some very bc experienced people. I hope you seriously consider it. If I'm wrong, I also hope they correct me but your comment above is bothering me. I can't figure out why a breeder would also have 22 rescues. Did she say how she came about getting these rescues? Were they in shelters about to be euthanized? Were they from people who no longer wanted them for whatever reason? Rescues, IMO, are 'overages' for lack of a better word. If she cares about the breed why is she still breeding and producing litters when she has 'rescues' that need homes first??? Even if she offered you a rescue, she is still adding to the problem by producing litters while dogs are in rescue-be it her's or someone elses.

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I just struggle with the concept that a dog has to be good at working stock to be good at everything else.

 

You are struggling because you aren’t getting the concept. We aren’t saying that the dog has to be good at livestock work to be good at everything else, mixes prove us that ever day. Any dog can be good at flyball or agility, drive can be taught, soundness and build can be picked for. I see about 12 rescues every week that I'd love to find sport homes for because I know they would just kick some major butt! Do I think we should breed them just because of that? No . . . . .

 

The concept we are trying to get threw is that this breed became the top in every field of dog sports because of the work ability behind it. Why try and change that or even take a risk in changing that? Why fix it if it isn't broken? There is no good reason to bred excess puppies for just one purpose when the dogs working livestock everyday produce puppies just as good or better in drive and soundness then those bred for agility, flyball or ext.

 

Who says an agility bred dog wont retain the work ethic and intelligence of the BC albeit in a different context?

 

Why would you want it in a different context? Don’t you want a Border Collie? A different context is a different breed.

 

Katelynn

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I THANK YOU all very much for explaining (some in a nice way some strait and to the point.) Of why I should not get this pup. I have listened to you I am not going to get it.

 

Good for you Joe. I really do hope you stick around and keep reading. Rescues are awesome and even if you do not find one or find that you'd rather get a puppy from a breeder, you are on a board with many amazing Border Collie people who will gladly point you in the right direction of getting a nice healthy puppy. We have our own rescue section too, you might want to check that out. We get some pretty nice dogs on there that need loving forever homes.

 

I know a few of us can be pretty blunt, me included but we don't mean any harm. We just love this breed and repeating things gets a bit old after so many different threads on the same thing over and over again! Thanks for taking the time to listen. I wish you the best of luck.

 

Katelynn

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herdcentral - I'm in Australia too, and here you have to go out of your way to see what proper, working bred Border Collies can do - you really need to go watch some farm work, since the 3 sheep trialling is IMHO very over-formalised and artificial.. What proper working bred Border Collies can do on atock is with maybe the odd exception, chalk and cheese from what show/performance bred BCs can do on stock - and usually the latter will only be able to do what they do after a lot of training.

 

Thanks for everyones input repeated as it migh be. I have never seen a working BC as in the rural area that I live kelpies are the stock dog of choice and my original plan was to get a farm bred kelpie. There are a few farmers with BCS and they keep the best for themseves and they generally shoot the ones they dont consider good enough. A 4 month old puppy with a fabulous temperament was offered to me from lines well known in the agility ring so I took her without any further thought.

 

 

I do understand what you all are saying and am more inclined now to come around to your way of thinking, I am just very unfamiliar with this breed. Your comments will no doubt influence my choice of dog in the future. My girl is shaping up to be a super little dog and she has just been spayed I might add. In fact I notice that a lot of BC breeders sell their dogs with spay/neuter contracts on the limited register.

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Herdcentral,

I realized when I replied the first time that the situation is likely a bit different in Australia than it is here, but the main point is that working-bred dogs have the "complete package" of traits that make them superior at other activities as well. When you start selecting just a few of those traits to breed onward to make, say, superior agility dogs, you are also selecting against the other traits that make up the complete package of the working dog (for example, if you consistently select for intensity, you may also be selecting against impulse control, since the latter may not be seen as important for sports competitions, and the result will eventually be a dog that is way over the top and difficult to live with, but may still be a great agility dog). Eventually that sort of selection changes the dog, and what you have is just some different version of the original--it doesn't contain all the elements that make border collies what they are. And although you (the general you) might not notice the subtle changes after just a few generations of breeding, the fact is those changes are there, and eventually you end up with a dog that's just an imitation of the original, likely missing some very crucial components. The show/working split is a very graphic example of this, which is why I used the example of show dogs in the UK having to have the herding tests dumbed down so they could pass. The show dogs have been bred for generations to emphasize just one part of the whole package, in this case, a specific look. It's pretty obvious that certain other parts of the package have been lost to those dogs, and the herding test changes made by the kennel club are just one more manifestation of that loss. Granted, the gradual drift in sports-bred dogs may be a bit more subtle, simply because some of the working attributes are still being selected for, but trust that it will happen. You just can't select for certain parts of a whole over time and expect the whole to remain as it was in the beginning. And sooner or later that drift will produce dogs that are pretty much nothing like the original "can-do-it-all-and-do-it-exceptionally" dogs that we know and love as our border collies.

 

J.

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a dog has to be good at working stock to be good at everything else.

 

No, what we are saying is that for the Border Collie, working stock is the standard for the breed, just as the written conformation standard would be for my little Chinese crested dog. Every breeder needs some external standard. For decorative and companion breeds, they've gone to the show standard above all. Some former working breeds have turned into decorative or companion breeds by a decision to pursue show standards. This has largely happened to the Border Collie in Australia - other examples on our own continent, the Scotch/rough collie, the corgwym, several terrier breeds, the Saint Bernard and Bernese Mountain Dog, the Golden retriever, the giant sighthounds.

 

Working breed dogs (such as the Border Collie) should only be bred by people who thoroughly understand the work the dogs should do, and train up their breeding stock to a high level. We don't want the latter, above, to happen to the Border Collie in North America.

 

I realize the situation is different in Australia, but it's not because you (as a culture) have found something that works for the breed (the jury is still very much out on that one, I think), but because it's a case of our addressing this when the horse is long gone from the barn. We of course don't blame anyone today for being in that situation. What we hope is by discussing this, to avoid that for our own breed in North America.

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To everyone. Thank you for the great advice (Jdarling, tassie, katelynn&gang, kalper, herdcentral, ourboys, and everyone else that I forgot) I truely thought I was a very very die hard border collie person. I under stand that it took centuries to breed the actual Border Collie the way it stands today, It was never EVER ment as a show dog. So as the AKC to finally put it in the hearding group in 1995 was kind of a kick in the balls to TRUE Border Collie owners. It has led to breeding for looks and so many dogs ending up in the shelters ( Babe The Movie). I also know if you go to hearding trials that no two Border Collies are alike. They are bred to keep there NATURAL intelligence, working ablity and that keen stare that they can control a sheep with out even moving. So I do see how important it is for the eyes to be PERFECT.

 

Understand this though for me. Even if you breed for perfection there will always be and imperfection some where along the lines. That imperfection does not mean the dog is any less important then the rest, nor should it be put down. Just dont breed it. Give it a FOREVER home.

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Understand this though for me. Even if you breed for perfection there will always be and imperfection some where along the lines. That imperfection does not mean the dog is and lest important then the rest nor should it be put down. Just dont breed it. Give it a FOREVER home.

Indeed, I think we all will drink a toast to that opinion!

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Understand this though for me. Even if you breed for perfection there will always be and imperfection some where along the lines. That imperfection does not mean the dog is any less important then the rest, nor should it be put down. Just dont breed it. Give it a FOREVER home.

 

No, the imperfection is not the puppy's fault. But the flaw's existence and the breeder's seeming reluctance to get it checked out herself by a specialist... well, that's not a breeder I'd want to support.

 

I know that puppy is pulling at your heartstrings, but the odds are stacked against you as far as health is concerned. I have a rescue BC that I love to death, but it breaks my heart that he has terrible hips. I bristle at the thought of the "breeder" that produced him, and am saddened that somewhere, he or she might still be breeding BCs (he's sable, another "rare" color). A training student of mine has a red merle Australian Shepherd with microopthalmia in one of his eyes; it has affected his sight and made him snappy towards people approaching on that side.

 

There are a ton of cute, fuzzybutt puppies produced by breeders. We all want to see you get your next "heart dog", and we want to see you get it from a responsible source.

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Understand this though for me. Even if you breed for perfection there will always be and imperfection some where along the lines. That imperfection does not mean the dog is any less important then the rest, nor should it be put down. Just dont breed it. Give it a FOREVER home.

I think that's what we've all been saying. There are plenty of good, responsible breeders out there who for whatever reason produce pups that aren't perfect. But at least they're *trying* to produce great pups, and the argument we've been making here is that you can get pups from those responsible breeders instead of getting the less-than-perfect pups from the irresponsible ones.

 

J.

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I think that's what we've all been saying. There are plenty of good, responsible breeders out there who for whatever reason produce pups that aren't perfect. But at least they're *trying* to produce great pups, and the argument we've been making here is that you can get pups from those responsible breeders instead of getting the less-than-perfect pups from the irresponsible ones.

 

J.

 

 

There is just no getting through to you. You just dont understand!!! I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE SAYING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Actually Joe, you're the one who doesn't seem to be getting it, as evidenced by the fact that you felt the need to tell the rest of us in one of your most recent posts that "Even if you breed for perfection there will always be and imperfection some where along the lines," which, to shout like you, IS WHAT WE'VE BEEN SAYING ALL ALONG! It's getting annoying, but of course I do continue to post, hoping that other folks reading this thread might actually get it.

 

J.

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In the words of Joe Pesci.... okayokayokay, I think we all are on the same page, we just need to look at the page.

I am really glad this person posted in the first place, as I for one hadn't seen that sort of eye issue in a pup before, and am glad to have been able to research it a bit. I am also happy that the OP is not going to purchase this pup, no matter how cute.

 

To the OP have you looked at those pups with the BC mom (the one who started to deliver in the shelter, under the rescue section)?

I would keep tabs on them; those pups may be just what you are looking for!

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