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New 5 week old worried!! HELP!!


hpjoe2001
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Actually Joe, you're the one who doesn't seem to be getting it, as evidenced by the fact that you felt the need to tell the rest of us in one of your most recent posts that "Even if you breed for perfection there will always be and imperfection some where along the lines," which, to shout like you, IS WHAT WE'VE BEEN SAYING ALL ALONG! It's getting annoying, but of course I do continue to post, hoping that other folks reading this thread might actually get it.

 

J.

 

 

haha! This is freaking crazy. Good for you that you have been saying this all along, I understood from the begining where you where comming from. I was looking for everyones opinion which I got. This you trying to teach me is over with. If you are annoyed of it STOP RESPONDING. I know where you stand. Basically it is proving to me that you are very dense when it comes to seeing other peoples view or understand where they come from. Here I will spell it out for you.

 

I know the ramification from buying from an AKC breeder!

I know the ramification of buying from a breeder that produces bad liters.

I KNOW I KNOW I KNOW

 

 

HOW MANY TIMES TO I HAVE TO STATE THE ABOVE FOR YOU TO GET IT???

 

DO YOU THINK I GOT IT NOW? Seriously stop posting. I dont know if you are trying to make me look bad or just want to show everyone how you feel either way. It is over and done with I got my answers everyone has let it go but you.

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In the words of Joe Pesci.... okayokayokay, I think we all are on the same page, we just need to look at the page.

I am really glad this person posted in the first place, as I for one hadn't seen that sort of eye issue in a pup before, and am glad to have been able to research it a bit. I am also happy that the OP is not going to purchase this pup, no matter how cute.

 

To the OP have you looked at those pups with the BC mom (the one who started to deliver in the shelter, under the rescue section)?

I would keep tabs on them; those pups may be just what you are looking for!

 

Thank you.. Yeah, I have been looking at all those storys they are all heart breaking at first. Then to read they have been rescued it just awesome to hear. I did see that post and I am keeping tabs on it. I might just go through Midwest Border Collie Rescue again I'll have to see though. Because I do want to raise a pup.

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Basically it is proving to me that you are very dense when it comes to seeing other peoples view or understand where they come from.

 

It's not that we are dense about other peoples views on breeding Border Collies, rather very protective of the dog we have that got here through tried and true methods of just breeding for the work they are needed to do. Breeding for other reasons just puts the dogs we need and love at risk of becoming a lesser/useless dog.

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It's not that we are dense about other peoples views on breeding Border Collies, rather very protective of the dog we have that got here through tried and true methods of just breeding for the work they are needed to do. Breeding for other reasons just puts the dogs we need and love at risk of becoming a lesser/useless dog.

 

 

1st I said nothing about everyone being dense.

2nd If you go back and READ my post you will said I have pretty much explained what you just said!

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You feel better now that you made a comment? :rolleyes:

 

Do you?

 

Julie and everyone else have been patient and solicitous and informative, and you're responding by being volatile and defensive. When you ask for something (advice) and you receive it freely, calling the giver (adviser) names isn't very generous of you. Julie is most certainly NOT dense.

 

I am however pleased to hear you won't be supporting this 'breeder.'

 

RDM

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I know the ramification from buying from an AKC breeder!

I know the ramification of buying from a breeder that produces bad liters.

I KNOW I KNOW I KNOW

 

 

HOW MANY TIMES TO I HAVE TO STATE THE ABOVE FOR YOU TO GET IT???

 

Hi Jo

I've stayed out of this because I don't think I can offer anymore than has already been offered.

I do have one question about your statement above.

 

Can you answer as to where and when you figured this out?

I am so glad that you did, but was wondering if was your own research elsewhere or this board that helped you figure things out.

 

I'm quite impressed that you stayed and "fought the fight" on this thread, even though I really don't think people were trying to fight you but that you had started to feel attacked by the shear gravity of the situation. Even more impressed that if indeed you learned this from here, we (the collective board) did make a difference. A hard difference to swallow if on the other side but very impressive of you to learn along with your argument. (not you as in only you but following this whole thread would be you and everyone else reading this and hopefully future readers)

 

Staying out of this till now has given me a different prospective on this post. I'm in total agreement with the other posters and feel like they did a very good job of "winning" you over. But can also see where a weaker person might have gotten sucked in by the argument instead of the information.

 

I'm not knocking anyone’s presentation of their points. I know how hard it to get someone to listen and just how frustrating fighting the same fight of this important goal in keeping the BC what it should be, over and over can be.

 

This is maybe the first time that I've seen such a great outcome where while I was reading, I thought that it was going to go a different way.

 

Good job to all, especially you Jo who is one more person with their light bulb shinning in the right direction. If you stay and continue to learn it will only get brighter and easier!

 

Kristen

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Joe,

 

As was pointed out to me this morning, these threads aren't just read by one person. There are others who learn from them besides the original poster. Someone could come on the boards 6 months from now and do a search & have your post come up and learn from it. So thank you for asking the question & posting the picture. You could be saving someone else the heartache.

 

If you're not into martinis, go have a bloody Mary or two.

 

Laura

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This has sure been a marathon and as a person who has been an ACD and Kelpie lover and now an accidental BC owner I have sure learned heaps. It is great to see such passion for the BC breed.

 

I have long been of the opinion that breeding dogs belongs to registered breeders and has no place in the backyard, but what a minefield registered breeding is for the BC!

 

I thought that I was doing the right thing making sure that my breeder did all the neccessary health checks and took time to socialise the pups and clearly cared about homing her pups etc but clearly there is more to breeding the BC than just this.

 

Breeders here often advertise that they are breeding for type and temperarment and that their pups are "typey" but maybe they are not so typey as according to the original BC.

 

When a dog breed starts to become a popular pet preserving the original spirit of the breed is bound to become a battle that requires committed champions with a deep understanding and love of the breed which you guys certainly have.

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When a dog breed starts to become a popular pet preserving the original spirit of the breed is bound to become a battle that requires committed champions with a deep understanding and love of the breed which you guys certainly have.

I love how this board is never casual about border collies. Joe has admirable persistence and engagement, and I hope he sticks around. If he does, I'll bet that the time will come when he is leading the charge!

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Hi Jo

I've stayed out of this because I don't think I can offer anymore than has already been offered.

I do have one question about your statement above.

 

Can you answer as to where and when you figured this out?

I am so glad that you did, but was wondering if was your own research elsewhere or this board that helped you figure things out.

 

I'm quite impressed that you stayed and "fought the fight" on this thread, even though I really don't think people were trying to fight you but that you had started to feel attacked by the shear gravity of the situation. Even more impressed that if indeed you learned this from here, we (the collective board) did make a difference. A hard difference to swallow if on the other side but very impressive of you to learn along with your argument. (not you as in only you but following this whole thread would be you and everyone else reading this and hopefully future readers)

 

Staying out of this till now has given me a different prospective on this post. I'm in total agreement with the other posters and feel like they did a very good job of "winning" you over. But can also see where a weaker person might have gotten sucked in by the argument instead of the information.

 

I'm not knocking anyone’s presentation of their points. I know how hard it to get someone to listen and just how frustrating fighting the same fight of this important goal in keeping the BC what it should be, over and over can be.

 

This is maybe the first time that I've seen such a great outcome where while I was reading, I thought that it was going to go a different way.

 

Good job to all, especially you Jo who is one more person with their light bulb shinning in the right direction. If you stay and continue to learn it will only get brighter and easier!

 

Kristen

 

 

Well, I thank you for taking the time to read the all the pages and respones. It takes that to understand where I am coming from. I have never ever delt with a breeder before. I have also gone through MWBCR. So my knowledge was limited to that. It was not untill I was about to get my first BC from a breeder that I found this site, and went to (dont yell at me) Petsmart and bought this book. 71_1_b.jpg (after this post & some questions) I was willing to accept peoples opinions and wanting to see how they see things. After dealing with some Rescues I knew that some BC were a bit crazy. I already knew that BC where the worlds smarts dog having the IQ of a 5 year old, And all the thing that come with that tennis balls, hearding kids/my cat, water, the BC stare ect ect....

 

Anyways, I read prob the first 13 pages. Now I understood the heritage. How in 943A.D was prob the first TRUE BC and until the 19th century the BC was strictly a working dog. The body types ranged in height and weight. In 1894 there was a dog named Old Hemp 21 inch tall and 45 pounds thought out his whole life time he went unbeaten. Still has not been mached till this day. BC did not come to america till 1880.

 

In 1995 there where finally in the hearding group with the akc. Which from what i learned hear. That was not a good thing and also in the book. Breeders went in two direction Conformation and performance. True BC people are afarid that showing the dogs in the AKC though having a hearding trials will weaken the breed. The ISDS/ Trials test the dog much more and if you where going to show them off. That is the place to do it. Not in some show that is all about look and symmetry.

 

I understand totally where and why this forum was created. My question to everyone is why is fly ball and aglity allowed as a seperate forum? Is that not teaching people to breed for the wrong reasons?

Can you be cerf in , ABCA, AKC, BCSA, ISDS all at once?

 

Lastly, please understand that I LOVE BC weather they are smart or not. Weather there eyes are strait or they are blind. That is why I have rescued 3 of them and more to come. I am only 24 years old. So I have a lot of saving to do (through rescues). I just get so mad when people throw these or any dogs in to pounds because they cant deal with them. So when I hear some people get so mad because a dog is not perfect (even thought it was not the dog it was the breeder I was going to) It reminds me of some storys I have heard about BC owners.

 

 

 

I HIGHLY RECOMMED "BORDER COLLIES" From DOG FANCY AND The Popular Dog Series.

Newcomers-It will teach you about the history and how and why this BC bored was made.(in a nice fun way) Oh pictures too!

Purebreds- You can still learn something in here about how the breed even started and how the Scotish and English prob look down on american breeding!

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I love how this board is never casual about border collies. Joe has admirable persistence and engagement, and I hope he sticks around. If he does, I'll bet that the time will come when he is leading the charge!

 

Thank you shores. Haha even if you wanted to get rid of you couldn't :rolleyes:

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Hi, Joe. I'll try to answer some of your questions...mostly about having a section on the boards for flyball and agility. Lots of people don't have stock, or end up with a dog from rescue who doesn't have all that it takes to work stock. or just don't have the desire to work their BC on stock. We (those of us on these boards) welcome any and all BC owners, no matter what they chose to DO with their dog. The consensus on the boards is, however, that no one BREED their dog for anything other than working ability. In fact, if you look back through this very thread, you'll see a post from herdcentral what asks why it's not OK to breed for agility and flyball. The responses patiently explain why not.

 

If you want some good reading, try The Farmer's Dog by John Holmes--it's an oldie but a goodie on the psyche of the working dog. Or Don McCaig's Eminent Dogs, Dangerous Men. Both are a great read, and very informative.

A

 

ETA: I think the days of the UK BC folks looking down on American breeding are over. Most that I talk to from over there agree that we are breeding as good (maybe better?) over here now.

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If you want some good reading, try The Farmer's Dog by John Holmes--it's an oldie but a goodie on the psyche of the working dog. Or Don McCaig's Eminent Dogs, Dangerous Men. Both are a great read, and very informative.

I heartily second these recommendations. Also, if you are interested in learning more about the split between working border collies and show dogs, read Dog Wars, also by Don McCaig. You can get a good preview of what's in Dog Wars from Terrierman's review of it: Border Collie Owners Battle What Doesn't Work

 

Joe: I've been known to shop at Petsmart once or twice. If anyone takes you to task for that, I promise to come to your defense :rolleyes:

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Purebreds- You can still learn something in here about how the breed even started and how the Scotish and English prob look down on american breeding

 

Thanks for answering.

 

I'm sure you'll get lots of answers to your questions. I think Stockdogranch (Anna) answered your question about why flyball and agility sections are on here. She also recommended some of the best books out there on our breed. Don Mc.'s Eminent Dogs, Dangerous Men will always be one of my favorites.

 

Your choice of reading is good, probably all you saw out there to choose from. Don’t feel bad for going there and buying what you could find. The really good books don't make it to places like petco/smart because they are catering to the general public. Which you won't find much of here :rolleyes:

 

Keep searching, reading, and listening. You'll be amazed at what you learn. The history that you know and have found so far is like scratching the very surface.

 

Someone could read a book about working stock and to the true novice, they might be thinking that they now know how to work stock or understand how a stock dog works. What more do you need but books and diagrams? Well, it's sorta like taking a painting class and then declaring yourself a painter. Who's to say you're not. But, we all know it takes years of practice and time in the field to really become a painter (not to mention pure talent). BC's are kinda the same way. The more you know, the more you find out just how little you know and how much more you want to know.

 

I started out like you, trying to do my research, thinking I knew something. I went, still go to petsmart, or other places that cater to the general public, probably not for the same reasons now as I did then. Only I've learned that the real education is had by reading, listening, watching, and experiencing a true working dog. I have nothing against ACK bc's as dogs, I do have an issue with people who breed for anything other than working ability but it's not the dogs fault. I don't consider them to be anything like my favorite breed and resent that they(the breeders) are using the name, our history, and a true bc's hard earned reputation to gain popularity for their dogs.

 

What you do with a dog is hands down better that what you might not do, whatever it might be.

If you rescue an ACK BC they are the same in the since of deserving a loving home and a loving owner willing to do whatever they find that suits them both. If you rescue a working bc, then I expect it will be the same partner as the other type. We don’t promote rescuing only working dogs, we just don’t promote buying from breeders who won’t take the time to understand what the true working dog is and why they are breeding a different dog.

 

Rescue has all a person not wanting to get into serious stock work could want and even then people have been known to luck into a great stock dog too. As you've learned, perpetuating bad breeders, even if it's to save that one dog, only gives them fuel for their mission, propagating dogs for profit. Unfortunately just because you don't buy the pup you came here seeking advise about, the breeder will probably still sell it to someone else who hasn't learned yet. Or if the dogs lucky, it'll end up in a good rescue and will be someone’s loving pet and not profit the breeder. You can't comprise for the sake of this dog, but you can always keep her in your heart. Truly rescuing a dog does not help the breeder but buying from her will, even if it's for the dog. She will profit.

 

After all this time (10+ years in love with bc's) it's only led to really opening up the doors to these wonderful dogs for me. It's time and experience that has taught me how much I really don't know. It's the working bred dog that will keep me learning and loving this breed.

 

Where is Wheeling IL? I know some great BC people in IL. I think if you look on the USBCHA web sight you will find some trials that are close enough for you to go and experience the true dogs we're talking about. You'll be amazed at what these dogs can do. You'll also meet some great people that can help you find the right dog it you decide against rescue this time. And if you're not careful they can start you into an adventure that will change you life!

 

Again, thanks for sticking around and I'll be waiting to read of your adventures in your quest for finding the perfect (rescue or not) dog for you!

 

Kristen

PS. all you people out there with ACK dogs, forgive me for what might be taken as an insult to your dogs. You know the drill, It’s not YOUR dog, but the breeding I’m preaching about.

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>>>>ETA: And, yes, your breeder may have a list much like Diane's, except for #1! Your breeder does not breed for the kind of proven working ability Diane has listed. And I am SURE that Diane's list is not just in any random order--there is a reason that #1 is listed as #1. It's the primary reason, without which, the rest don't matter<<<<<

 

Yes, #1 is that way for a reason. My dogs don't perform to the high standard, then they do not get bred. They get fixed and sold. PERIOD. Anna breeds the same as I do. Her dogs work at the highest level in the Cattle trials. I have seen them and they show the true test of a real working dog.

 

I have students come in here for lessons with their Border Collies that have been bred for sports (agility) for several generation. If the going get tough, they quit. They tend to be driven but lack the instinct...meaning they go and go since they have been bred to be fast and biddable but lost the edge for working. Two of the sports bred dog will quit when they feel like they are done/tired or if the sheep are too tough. Lucky for them, they are pets first.

 

Tess will work until she is covered in mud, her hinny dragging since she is so darn tired but won't quit and will do things that are tough....swim to get sheep off an island, move sheep out of brush, etc ..... sometimes she is too tired to eat (and Tess LOVES FOOD) but her instinct drives her. This is the dog I love despite the fact she is a pillow hog!!!

 

I am glad you came on the boards and asked question about the pup. At least, you tried and you did get an education from it. Best not to support someone who breeds for the wrong reason.

 

My first Border Collie was from a BYB. I love her and she has genetic issues , bad temperament and not very good on stock...but we love her and I did herding with her and she got me started. I feel in love with a fat, white fuzzball and the rest is history. Her siblings were all put down by on yr due to the bad temperaments and her half siblings are blind. The BYB didn't care his dog had eye defects....

 

Look around and you will get the right dog....as the saying goes "Patience, grasshopper"

 

Diane

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Her siblings were all put down by on yr due to the bad temperaments and her half siblings are blind. The BYB didn't care his dog had eye defects....

 

I'd forgotten that one of my senior dogs that I got long ago, even after I thought I knew something, had the same thing happen to the rest of her litter. Not for bad eyes but for horrible temperments. It's such a shame what breeders will do for the all mighty dollar. By then I had found ABCA and stock work but was still taken in by someone that knew how to talk the talk but not walk the walk. And at that time I thought I knew something. To bad I hadn't found this place yet. BYB's and the likes can take on many forms. ABCA is not immune, only you and what you learn will teach you how to tell the good from the bad.

 

This is really one of the best places to get your BC education going. You might be wondering how do you know this place is better than any others....hang around, read previous posts, go to trials, both ACK and USBCHA you will quickly be able to at least see the difference and hopefully this place will give you the knowledge to pick the right group. If that's not enough find some ACK people, hang around them and ask about the other "type" dogs. They'll tell you how crazy we are and how crazy our dogs are, We aren't saying that about them, only saying they shouldn't be breeding for anything other than the work. It is what these dogs were made from. You'll also notice how much more breeding is going on in the ACK world. If you don't have to hold your dog to such a strict standard, it's way easier to come up with reasons to breed. Look to see on here how many of us have had a litter recently. Bet it's not even 5%. Those that have, will have tons of knowledge and be walking the walk. Not talking the talk.

good luck

K~

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hpjoe2001 - good on you for listening and learning and opening the discussion so others can listen and learn.

 

If you want another recommendation - this time for a DVD - try The Year of the Working Sheepdog - follows the year of a farmer in England, and shows his reliance on his wonderful working border collies - tears to the eyes stuff. Have a look in the Books section of the boards, too.

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Wow, I don't know how I missed this...

 

 

Joe, let me tell you what happens when a breeder breeds for color, and cares for little else.. You may get a merle dog with severe immune problems, such as mine, or maybe inflammatory bowel disease, which requires a strict, expensive, and carefully monitored diet, like my dog does, throw in some bad hips and voila! Thats what happens when so called 'breeders' decide they will breed for color and little else...My dog Ido was a BYB rescue, pulled from a barn with 12 adult dogs, 4-5 of which had litters on the ground, most of which were the obvious products of merle-to-merle outcomes....it was a sad day. And who knows? Her whole list of problems could just be her luck of the draw...but I'm still convinced that its due to the breeder not giving a rats a**.

 

For some one who has had dogs with hip problems, I would think you'd be adamant about getting a pup with parents who passed their hip exams. Be sure and check for that in the future. If you're willing to spend upwards of $500 for a puppy, you better get what you pay for. I understand you're no longer getting a puppy from that 'breeder', but if that breeder was worth his/her oats at all she would be the one concerned about those pup's eyes in the first place!

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Guest SweetJordan

I was just looking at BC breeders online (no, I'm not looking for a pup), but lets just say I now feel very sick. It's possible that I may throw up.

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