"The Dog Whisperer"

[ArchersMomma]

I caught a show on National Geographic Channel called the Dog Whisperer. Am I the only one that thinks this guy is an idiot?? Sorry to be so blunt but seems to me he's WAY behind the times on how to train using gentle reinforcement...he practices a lot of jerking on leads and physical corrective behaviours and even used one of those really nasty pronged choke collars on a Standard poodle! I want to write him and ask if I can try one on him! Think he'd go for that? I mean I am by no means a trainer but even I can see that his techniques are archaic. What do you guys think?

[Smokjbc]

I caught a show on National Geographic Channel called the Dog Whisperer. Am I the only one that thinks this guy is an idiot?? Sorry to be so blunt but seems to me he's WAY behind the times on how to train using gentle reinforcement...he practices a lot of jerking on leads and physical corrective behaviours and even used one of those really nasty pronged choke collars on a Standard poodle! I want to write him and ask if I can try one on him! Think he'd go for that? I mean I am by no means a trainer but even I can see that his techniques are archaic. What do you guys think?

 

There are alot of threads on this board that hash out the extremely varied views people have on Cesar Milan. I personally think that alot of what he has to say is a much needed response to the current "pet parent" attitude our society has. I think society in general needs a reminder that dogs are first dogs, then our companions and are not to be treated like spoiled brat kids. He seems talented in reading the dynamics of the family/pack relationship and good at explaining those dynamics. Those "nasty prong chokes" have actually been proven to be safer to use than the old-fashioned type and are very effective tools. Like any tool, they can be abused. Cesar often works with the tools the family is familar wtih and tries to do things in a way they will understand. I really respect that he doesn't say "you must use X,Y,Z with my brand name on it", instead treats each situation individually. What he can do with severely aggressive dogs, granted on an edited tv program, rarely fails to impress me- especially the work he's done with dog aggressive dogs. I prefer him to any other trainer on tv and think he message of treating dogs like dogs, not children and of placing boundaries are crucial to any successful canine/human relationship.

[Root Beer]

I'd been wondering when another Cesar thread was going to crop up.

 

I said pretty much everything I had to say about him in this thread. Grab some popcorn and enjoy!

 

http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showtopic=18516

[stockdogranch]

Sure, we've all had our say before, but the boards have been a bit quiet lately. I'm with Jamie on this one. He is, for the most part, dealing with people who have no clue how to be the one in charge, so the dogs are the ones running the households. You have to remember, he is not dealing (usually) with really fearful dogs or any of that freaked-out, baggage stuff, which tends to bring out all the "click and treat" types of training. So, no, I don't think he's archaic at all--just expedient, for the most part, at least, from what I've seen of him. What he is really changing is the owners' behaviors, not that of the dogs.

 

A

[mbc1963]

I don't personally hate Cesar (though, I have to admit that as a woman who likes swarthy men, I kind of love him...). But I saw some Dog Whisperer "enriched bottled nutrient water" in Petco the other day. Oy. Cesar, how low you've sold yourself out.

 

Mary

[TAC2]

even used one of those really nasty pronged choke collars on a Standard poodle! I want to write him and ask if I can try one on him!

 

Actually, I've used those "nasty collars" and they really aren't as bad as they look. They do have their place with certain dogs, in certain situations. And BTW, yes, I HAVE tried it on myself. Before I ever placed it on a dog, my instructor had me put it around the thigh to feel the right pressure/tension. Proper sizing is also important. On the other hand, e-collars just make me NUTS!

 

Sorry - don't know anything about Cesar Milan so nothing to say about him.

 

~ Tru

[vanillalove]

I'm not exactly sure how I feel about CM.

 

One on side, I think a majority of households that have problems with their dogs could benefit from Cesar. I think it's great that he shows owners how to step in and take a little bit of control.

 

However, OTOH, I don't think his show or his methods necessarily show how complicated some canine behaviours can get and they aren't always stemmed from a submissive or light-handed owner. This is where I have a problem with him, he tends to jump to the conclusion that every household and every dog and owner pair suffers from a lack of respect, when sometimes the problem roots deeper than that and I think some owners expect to use Cesar's "dog whispering" methods and they end up not getting anywhere, but maybe hurt.

 

I guess I've decided that I just don't really buy him. Sure, he opens the eyes of some of the less knowledgeable dog owners out there and perhaps they actually learn a little about what's happening in their household and they are able to do something about it with his methods. However, I'm not sure I can actually believe in his "whispering" techniques when it comes to certain "problems" with some dogs. Could his famous "TSSST!" help a household who got a little more than they asked for with a Border Collie who has a strong prey drive?

 

I think he looks amazing on TV, because he approaches the same problems everytime, and uses the same methods to fix them. I'd maybe actually credit him if he had to deal with a severly fear aggressive Border Collie, with a TSST!

 

Until then, I just can't really take him seriously.

[INU]

I record and watch every dog related shows, especially training shows, that are available. There is something I learn from every trainer, good or bad. I set to record all dog whisper on DVR and my husband and I used to watch them together. I stopped letting him watch since last weekend. I make him watch "It's me or the dogs" just to balance it out. He doesn't like her and commented "Cesar can fix that dog in 30 minutes!" We took our dogs to socialize with in-law's dogs last week. The dogs were making a lot of noises initially. He tried to use Cesar's 'tsss + poke' technique on one of their dogs. Then I realized that it was not good idea to let him watch Dog Whisper anymore. It's difficult when an average pet owner (him) sees some quick fix on TV and think that works for him too.

[Shetlander]

I like Cesar Milan. I think he has a lot of common sense advise for owners. On the show, I've seen lots of dogs make significant improvement, many of them dogs I wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole. I also see him check back with owners to see how it is going. Sometimes it's going great. Other times not well at all. Cesar will talk to some of the owners about what a poor (re:disastrous) match they are with their dog and sometimes he helps them find a dog that fits in better with them, taking their previous dog to rehab and find a new home. With regards to the collar, he often uses whatever the owner is using already, though sometimes he has them try different equipment. I see him vary his approach quite a bit from dog to dog. I'm not always comfortable with with how he approaches shyness/fearfulness, or let's just say that is not how I would choose to do it. But on the other hand, the dogs do seem to make progress with him.

 

I like Victoria Stillwell on It's Me or the Dog (even if I was very disappointed, though not surprised by her attitude towards crating). She takes a much more behavioral approach to training the dogs (and owners) and also seems to have very good success. I've seen both Victoria and Cesar have success on their shows with the same types of issues, which I think goes to show there generally isn't just ONE way to do anything. Though I don't think I've seen Victoria take on as dogs that were as seriously human aggressive as some of the ones Cesar has worked with.

 

I do think there is potential for abuse and misuse of Cesar's techniques, but that is true of many methods and techniques. Even positive reinforcement only where it is badly or ineffectively used.

[Barb Scott]

I caught a show on National Geographic Channel called the Dog Whisperer. Am I the only one that thinks this guy is an idiot?? Sorry to be so blunt but seems to me he's WAY behind the times on how to train using gentle reinforcement...he practices a lot of jerking on leads and physical corrective behaviours and even used one of those really nasty pronged choke collars on a Standard poodle! I want to write him and ask if I can try one on him! Think he'd go for that? I mean I am by no means a trainer but even I can see that his techniques are archaic. What do you guys think?

I agree with you that he's an idiot, but totally disagree about prong collars!

Barb S

[sweet_ceana]

This is where I have a problem with him, he tends to jump to the conclusion that every household and every dog and owner pair suffers from a lack of respect,

I think these type of cases are the only ones they choose to show. It seems to me that the under lying idea in the show is an almost "You can do it," feeling. His show almost has a self help feel to it. That is why they choose the cases that they do and that it why it is so popular.

 

Do I agree with his methods... NO

[JaderBug]

I didn't think the "psssht -- poke" thing worked very well, at least it didn't phase my dogs when I tried it. I'm not a huge fan of CM, but I really really do like Victoria from Its Me or the Dog, even if she does come off as a bit crazy sometimes.

 

I think CM sets a poor example to average pet owners who don't have a clue... he makes it look soooo easy that anyone can do it. I know that's kind of the idea, buuut... I know a (REALLY) young couple, the picture of responsibility (apply thick sarcasm, that's a whole 'nother story) who got a 6 wk old Great Dane puppy with zero experience with dogs. Despite many of our suggestions to take the pup to puppy classes to get appropriate training, he refused, claiming that "he had watched a lot of Cesar's shows, and that's how he was going to train his dog," and now they have a 100 lb unruly 10 month old Great Dane that thinks its LOTS of fun to PLAY with their 1 year old son. This couple is easily the best example I know of stupid people shouldn't breed. Or own pets. Oh and then they thought it'd be super cute to get a mini dachshund for the Great Dane to play with. They got the doxie at 5 weeks of age.

 

Some people just make you want to pull your hair out. And take their children/animals away from them.

[TAC2]

I didn't think the "psssht -- poke" thing worked very well, at least it didn't phase my dogs when I tried it. I'm not a huge fan of CM, but I really really do like Victoria from Its Me or the Dog, even if she does come off as a bit crazy sometimes.

 

On one of my sheep lists, someone recommended using this on sheep to back them off the gate/feed, etc. Said it worked like a charm. I must have done it wrong since all my critters looked at my like I'd lost my mind...and ignored it too.

 

~ Tru

Laingcroft

[hsnrs]

We have been watching lots of his programs lately. The people are the problems; not the dogs. N

[Blue_Sky]

ArchersMomma,

 

I am in complete agreement with you. Cesar does not "rehabilitate" dogs. He uses fear tactics to intimidate dogs. He doesn't solve any problems, he covers them up. He is an idiot and is wrong about a lot of stuff, including his "pack" theories. I saw an episode where he said a cat that is hissing at a dog that is chasing it is being dominant! Maybe the cat is just scared and trying to protect itself! Also, prong collars aren't necessary...even on aggressive dogs. Watch this for an example of how positive training works on aggressive dogs. I've had this dog in my home on several occasions. His owners won't take him outside without a muzzle on because of his severe aggression. Yet, no prong collars are necessary in his training and he's made HUGE progress...

[Eileen Stein]

Just curious whether anyone else will find themselves wincing when they watch Blue Sky's video.

 

To the OP: If you click on Search and type in "Cesar" you will find myriad previous discussions about him. Always a lively topic . . .

[Dal & Mad's Mom]

I think you can take a bit from everyone and use it. We have a few dog who we have worked through severe shyness. Real fear. The bottom line is it takes time.

 

I do rewards though like the one dog loves to ride in the car. She turns from an awful afraid girl to a happy puppy. So if she does what I need she gets to go in the car on errands. I also use treats. I think taking her in the car is changing her mind about people. I also think you have to use common sense. This dog is terrified of airline crates so for a while she didnt have to use a crate at all now after 2 month I have her in a regular metal crate. She behaves amazingly well for my dad like she worships him but, even if she wants to stay with my dad forever she has to become a workable dog all around.

 

I've had one or two that I just couldnt do anything with and they werent safe at any level. I always get the feeling that they never say that on the shows.

 

Edited to add that I also dont think the back pack thing works for border collies. The dogs we have had people claimed to have even had professional trainers help them with it. I think it frys their brain a bit. JMHO It msut be a popular thing in OH and MI as thats where the dogs were from

[TAC2]

Also, prong collars aren't necessary...even on aggressive dogs.

 

I think there is some mis-understanding about the use of prong collars. They are used just like a regular smooth chain "choke" collar. They work well on very thick coated dogs because regular chain collars either hang up in the fur (don't slide or release easily) or just don't get through. They also work in training to get the attention of a dog in high drive and focus...in the instance we used it, Schutzhund training. For example, you want the dog to release and he DECIDES not to pay attention, you need to GET his attention. This is not "dealing with aggression" but dealing with focus. A GSD has a thick neck ruff (hair), and a regular chain choke doesn't always do the job. I haven't trained any BCs in herding yet, but I know if I had a BC decide to take a "grip" to the extent of mauling the sheep and ignoring my voice commands, I guarantee I won't be wasting time with "positive reinforcement" but getting over there ASAP to get that dog off the sheep!

 

I don't know what CM is doing, never saw his show, read his books or otherwise, but perhaps he needed to change the dog's focus, and it just looks like something else? Personally, I try not to judge anything I see on TV because I'm not there and things have been so edited as to give a skewed picture.

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

~ Tru

[Patty Abel]

Just curious whether anyone else will find themselves wincing when they watch Blue Sky's video.

 

To the OP: If you click on Search and type in "Cesar" you will find myriad previous discussions about him. Always a lively topic . . .

 

I watched the video and can't help but remember our first real dog... a border collie/ husky mix that was a dominant scrappy mess. Add to that mix three school age kids, push over mom and a neighborhood full of dogs and kids. Those methods work for giving people the tools to deal with a creature they are clueless about. We kept and trained him in spite of(because of??) the challenges.

 

Jack had a full life. I think you can take good things from that training, but it doesn't end there....Patty

[Shetlander]

Just curious whether anyone else will find themselves wincing when they watch Blue Sky's video.

 

It looked like the typical positive reinforcement approach to this sort of problem. I dislike head halters, so that bugged me. What made you wince, Eileen?

 

It would be nice to know how aggressive this dog was. I've had a couple of dogs who put on convincing displays if you didn't know them but were cowards at heart. I also had one dog who would have happily torn into any animal he came into contact with. Big difference, plus I'm sure there are lots of dogs in between that would do some damage without wanting to kill.

 

What struck me about the video is I see the dogs on Cesar's show look like the dog in the video after he had worked with them. Last night's show would have made many here insane because he really was hanging a dog (back feet on the ground, but a slip collar tight high on the neck). Cesar commented on why he was doing what he was doing and how it could have been done in a way that would have harmed the dog. It wasn't easy to watch but neither was that dog. He was a scary creature, one I would not have had a moment's hesitation about putting down, quite frankly. After several weeks with Cesar, it was hard to believe he was the same dog -- relaxed, happy, respectful. At the end of the show, Cesar said the dog started regressing with his owners and they had given him to Cesar in exchange for an easier dog to live with. The dog looked pretty happy in the last shots of him relaxing with other dogs in Cesar's pack. I think he was just plain wired wrong --- but Cesar somehow seemed to give him what he needed to be ok. There was a shot of one of Cesar's boys playing with the dog in their pool.

 

I don't buy everything Cesar says and does (I don't with any trainer), but I shake my head at the way he is vilified, sometimes even by people who have never seen his show but hear stories about it. He thinks way more in terms of dominance than I do. But for the most part I don't see him using fear tactics though there are dogs who experience stress while working with him. But in the end, they survive and appear to go on to be better behaved dogs.

 

The example of the couple with the Dane, baby and dachshund? They'd be moronic without Cesar. Did they watch or read him and decide they were experts? Sounds like but they could have easily done that with any other number of sources including a local obedience instructor.

[Smokjbc]

I don't buy everything Cesar says and does (I don't with any trainer), but I shake my head at the way he is vilified, sometimes even by people who have never seen his show but hear stories about it. He thinks way more in terms of dominance than I do. But for the most part I don't see him using fear tactics though there are dogs who experience stress while working with him. But in the end, they survive and appear to go on to be better behaved dogs.

>>Liz

 

This is very well said. What I really appreciate about Cesar is his sincere love for dogs- whether you agree with him or not- you can see that he really likes dogs and has their best interest at heart. Dogs may experience stress but I feel that if we expect dogs to live in our world, they need to experience stress and have the tools to handle it. A dog without those tools will never be predictable. I thought the postive reenforcement video was ok- looks impressive- like to see that dog with the owner instead of the trainer and I do wince at constant treat giving/focus on the person but that's just me hating turning dogs into robots (donning flame suit now ).

[in2adventure]

I don't own a TV (very proud of that, by the way) and have never seen cesar. I agree with a few of the folks here......take a little from everyone and use what's right for each individual dog. Not all aggression is the same, not all fear issues are the same and not all techniques work on all dogs. I've done A LOT of teaching in various fields and teaching a hard headed marine with a short attention span is not even close to teaching a hard headed 15 y/o with a short attention span, yet many people would say the problem is the same, why not use the same fix. I would think it would be simpilar in animals (I'm not comparing animals to people, just training problems).

 

I use prong collars and don't regret it. They are a very useful tool if used properly. I was taught 15 years ago how to use one nicely. My trainer has long since passed, but he was one of the kindest men you could meet and had more obedience ribbons than I could count. The collars are a very abused tool by joe shmo who sees it on a pet store rack and thinks "wow, that's my cure all" and make their use look horrid because they don't know what their doing with it. Lucia had one for a couple months until she understood yanking me around on a leash was unacceptable. I don't yank, choke, pull, force, drag or intimidate with it. The dog self corrects and after awhile realizes, yanking gets them no where fast. Grady is wonderfull on leash, but forgets he's on one sometimes and the collar reminds him he's still attached when on walks.

 

On long walks, I use a flexi lead so they can exersice. They know the difference between flexi and a 6 foot obediance lead. There is no requirement to stay at my side on a flexi, just don't take advantage of it by yanking me all over. They never need a prong for the 6 ft, just the flexi. Like I said, it's just a reminder for their boundries and the longest I've ever need to use one more than a couple months and it wasn't used every day, just situational.

[bcnewe2]

Just curious whether anyone else will find themselves wincing when they watch Blue Sky's video.

 

I dunno I couldn't get my face off her treat despencing crotch....

 

What I did see was corrections being given to the dog (how ever slight on that head thing they were using) the whole time. What's the difference with that and a reg. collar leash correction?

 

I don't want my dog looking at me instead of looking at another dog. I want my dog to know how to leave the other dog alone without any treats or my crotch being in the picture.

Did you notice in the last scene they were walking and all Podee was doing was watching the lady?

Not my style of training. And I didn't think that was positive training either. Kristine, do you use head corrections like that?

 

BTW...I like Ceasar, I watched last nights epi. of Ceasar and would have put that dog sleep. Kudos to Ceasar for putting in the work that he did. Notice that the dog ended up staying with Ceasar instead of living in a normal home. I don't think that dog would ever be safe with a reg. family. I know I wouldn't want the liability on me. I can't imagine postive training on that dog. He'd be eating the lady not watching. That just made me shiver. Sorta in the same manner Podee's training did.

JMHO

[Maralynn]

Just curious whether anyone else will find themselves wincing when they watch Blue Sky's video.

 

It looked to me like she was controling the dog and dishing out treats instead of training. The dog was basically being corrected/forced into the chosen behavior.

 

And I'm not 100% sure, but it looked like the lead was attached to the halti, a martingale and the harness? What alot of hardware

[Wendy V]

It looked to me like she was controling the dog and dishing out treats instead of training. The dog was basically being corrected/forced into the chosen behavior.

 

I can't say that I agree with your conclusion that the dog was being forced or corrected. The dog was being redirected by food and the couple of minor leash pops were just reminders. I don't consider a leash pop of such little force to be a correction, but I could be splitting hairs.

 

Neither do I agree with Blue Sky that the dog was now relaxed and safe around other dogs. The dog looked to be somewhat reliable when doling out food while in the presence of that one particular dog, but I wouldn't deem it safe in uncontrolled and unexpected encounters with other dogs. Neither did the dog looked "relaxed". It looked very alert and aware of its surroundings. I consider a dog "relaxed" when the dog is not engaged at all.

 

BTW, I enjoy Caesar Milan's shows. I feel he has a good read on dogs AND people. I don't see that his methods are even remotely abusive. He has a clear and consistant message of relating to dogs that many dog owner's could benefit from: "execise, disipline, and then affection". Where is the harm in that?