Please Help! Scary Puppy Aggression Issues!

[madrose124]

I'm so sorry. There's a dog out there for you! Big hugs!

[Gloria Atwater]

I'm so, so sorry.

There will be a puppy or dog for you. This experience is an aberration, not the norm. Your heartache and loss may take a long time to ease, but eventually, the world will turn and joy will come. *hugs*

~ Gloria

[gcv-border]

Likewise, I am very sorry to hear of your, and your pup's, plight. People more knowledgeable than I am have responded with thoughtful replies.

 

I just wanted to add a thought regarding the financial aspect. Hopefully, the breeder will accept the puppy back and return your $$. Don't keep the puppy if you can't get your money back. In the short term, it may feel like a loss, but in the long term, I think a visit or two to the hospital from dog bites (which I hope never happens) will be much more costly than the cost of the pup. Just MHO.

[Camden's Mom]

Daybreak,

 

From your original post I was getting the impression that, over time, more consistency in training and structure in day to day life could help Colt with his issues. However, based on your follow up posts it's clear you are a dog savvy person and have this guy on a set routine, providing all the structure a young puppy should need. I'll have to agree with others that to return or re-home (through rescue) Colt is your best course of action.

 

I'm sorry this has been such a difficult situation for you and your family. I believe, like others have said, that there is a perfect dog for your family out there! Good luck and best wishes!

[mum24dog]

I'm wary of condemning a pup on the basis of internet info and won't do so here - the stakes are too high for him.

 

And I fear that even if the breeder were to take him back he may just end up being sold on without a proper assessment and someone might end up getting hurt.

 

In all honesty I think it best to see if a BC rescue can give you an informed appraisal of the likelihood of his being able to be rehomed responsibly.

[Daybreak]

Well I think I offically have SUCKER on my forehead.

Contacted breeder, no refund, no take back(even for free), no take back and find him new home.The breeders mother said if it was the pup, it would have showed up before 9 weeks(yes even heard from mom?) That I must have tramatized him somehow, or the kids did(would proposed tramitize even cause resource guarding?)...if I didn't care about the pup or didn't want him, I'd have saved a lot of trouble and just sold him before this started happening! That the kids should have been around him more(uh, no.)That I'm too soft(see previous advice), but somehow traumatized him.That they sold us a well socialized pup( I don't think they were even vet checked, got a bag that had contained his first shot and the breeder said he hadn't yet been outside when I picked him up, but it has been very cold) and we did something. Said our responsibility ended when you purchased him.

Okay....its about the money.

Saw the mothers ABCA papers when we picked him out, but still haven't received Colt's papers.Maybe it will come, but how stupid and gullible am I!

Called vet and again confirmed not parts problem. Vet said call rescue, which I had already started and I've contacted the only one that I know of in Ohio, Buckeye. Waiting a response. Anyone know of another in these parts? I hope so.Don't want to take him to the pound to just suffer for months in that enviroment, then be put down cause no one wants to take him on. we could, but I really HATE animals suffering. Been known to accidentally hit something on the road, see it suffering, and purposely turn around and hit it again to put it out. Hate seeing suffering, would feel even worse for causing it.

If we don't get any relief, looks like we are going to be looking down into the sights with Colt at the end. THIS SUCKS!!!

Any other rescues?

[Journey]

So sorry. Hard lessons do suck but often not repeated. I'd be doubtful about placing him or even sending him to rescue. May have another hard lesson coming your way.....sorry.

 

Do you have a puppy lemon law in your state? Maybe, maybe ....the lack of 2 testicles will suffice for the law? Though its not unheard of them not both being down at 11 weeks.

[Daybreak]

I hope this isn't normal bc behavior? I mean,the breeders mom said they are harder to raise than other dogs like GSDs or aussies, not that we have an icecubes chance in the desert in getting another pup/dog right now, but are they really that "touchy"? I mean, I really tried to control the enviroment and I felt was perhaps hyperviligent to protecting him and forseeing possible behavorial issues because I heard they were a bit more sensitive and probably even smarter than aussies...did my hyperviligence do this, spazzed him out ? Did the extra cuddling/petting I did give him a big head?Are they prone to that?I thought they were supposed to be even more eager to please but? That with the NILIF(which I've done for years, though) and more just positive training? I didn't start some corrects until after he started resource guarding, so I know that is not it.Did I do something that triggered this in him.... but I guess even if I did somehow, it had to be there to trigger to begin with and better to find it now.

Also thank you for your experiences and compassionate words Taking it all into account.Are they really that different, normally?

 

Normally, as a normal bc. I know he's not normal.

[Tess's Girl]

Daybreak,

 

I've been keeping up with your thread and I am so sorry about your situation. I don't have as much experience as most people on this board but no this is not normal BC behavior. I have worked with many different breeds of dog, and BCs are different than most dogs, but not in a bad way. And not like your puppy.

 

But it's nothing that you've done. From what you've written I think it's apparent that you are dog savvy and know what you're doing. Good management and hypervilligence is exactly what a puppy needs.

 

From what you've written, it sounds like you ended up with a bad pup from a bad breeder. From some of the "dominance" ideas they were telling you about it doesn't sound like he's a particularly good owner either. If they hadn't left the house before you picked him up those puppies were not well socialized, at all. And any breeder who doesn't take life-long responsibility for his puppies is one of the worst, in my books.

 

So to answer your questions, no it's not normal BC behavior, and no it's not anything you've done. Possibly someone out there has the resources to deal with the puppy and help him through his issues (if he can be helped) and a rescue would be your best bet, I believe, to find that someone, if they can. I don't know of any rescues, but if you do end up talking with them don't hold anything back about his behavior, the good and the bad, so they will know if they can truly help.

 

Again, I'm so sorry you're going through this. I hope you will want to bring another BC into your life at some point, they truly are wonderful dogs. Someone on these boards will hopefully be able to help you connect with a rescue or breeder that will provide you with a well-bred BC pup and you will see how alarming this behavior is.

[MrSnappy]

This isn't normal behaviour for any puppy, border collie or not. Excessive resource guarding is hardwired, and my experience has been that even if you modify the guarding over one item, it's going to crop up again over something else, and then something else, again and again.

 

Don't take him to a shelter - they'll just euthanize him and that's not fair to him or to the shelter staff.

 

I have euthanized pups that young for similar behaviours and I would (and probably, sadly, will) do it again. I'm not telling you what to do, but I wouldn't keep this dog and I wouldn't pawn him off on anyone else, including a rescue. I might ask a rescue for an evaluation of his behaviour to put my mind at ease about my decision though.

 

RDM

[Daybreak]

Tess's Girl-

 

Thank you for your insight..it actually brought tears of relief to my eyes. I guess I'm questioning myself and sure not above owning if I was wrong.I actually hoped I was in the beginning, so I could change and fix it!

 

Thanks

[Daybreak]

MrSnappy-

 

Thank you as well for you experience with the resource guarding...more of a newer thing for me, but I have dealt with it a little. As I said, I don't want to take him to a shelter, a shelter is where I want to rescue a dog, not take it. Nice to know I don't have the only crazy pup out there, SADLY

 

I hoped maybe a rescue might have some insight I didn't but honestly am not real hopeful by now.... just felt it was the right thing to do to try I guess I gave them this thread, as I believe in treatin others as I want to be treated. It does me, Colt or them no good to hide info.

 

Thanks.

[Tommy Coyote]

Did this puppy act like a normal puppy for a while - submissive and playful? Did this start slowly and build or did it just start all of a sudden?

 

Did you have a vet check the puppy all over to be sure he isn't in pain? Dogs that hurt will get really snappy. Animals that have teeth problems can get really snappy.

 

Or maybe some kind of siezure disorder?

 

Just a thought.

 

I have a puppy that is just turning 8 months. He is still very sweet natured and he is still submissive. And I just don't think a couple of too hard corrections would do that to a normal puppy. We all get mad sometimes when the dogs push us past our patience limit and it doesn't ruin the dog.

 

Another thought is that this breeder sounds defective. If I called my breeder and said that my 11 week old puppy is acting agressive she would say that it wasn't normal behavior and to bring him back and let her see if she can figure out what is wrong. It may be that the breeder has had similar problems in the past and knows a whole lot more about this than she is saying.

 

This is not your fault. And it certainly isn't the puppy's fault. And that breeder should be put out of business.

[Camden's Mom]

Contacted breeder, no refund, no take back(even for free), no take back and find him new home.The breeders mother said if it was the pup, it would have showed up before 9 weeks(yes even heard from mom?) That I must have tramatized him somehow, or the kids did(would proposed tramitize even cause resource guarding?)...if I didn't care about the pup or didn't want him, I'd have saved a lot of trouble and just sold him before this started happening! That the kids should have been around him more(uh, no.)That I'm too soft(see previous advice), but somehow traumatized him.That they sold us a well socialized pup( I don't think they were even vet checked, got a bag that had contained his first shot and the breeder said he hadn't yet been outside when I picked him up, but it has been very cold) and we did something. Said our responsibility ended when you purchased him.

 

I added the emphasis to your post, but... wow... this breeder has given you poor advice all around, shrugged off all responsibility and has been unwilling to work with you or the puppy in anyway. I would consider contacting the ABCA and letting them know about this experience or even the Better Business Bureau and complain about the way they have handled this transaction. I don't know that anything could or would be done. It just doesn't seem right that a breeder be allowed to continue to make loads of money off of dogs and people they obviously care nothing about. Sorry you had this experience... yuck...

 

Please do not take him to a shelter or the pound... I think it would be more humane (and safer for everyone) to have him PTS then to put him into that environment. He's still a cute little puppy, likely to be adopted out for that reason alone, and could hurt someone if the new owners don't know his behavioral history.

 

I hope you find a rescue who is willing to at least meet/observe him and see if, in the right environment, Colt could thrive. Maybe they will tell you his behaviors are too severe and dangerous and that putting him to sleep is the best option for everyone. If it were me I'd certainly rest easier making that decision after consulting someone face to face (be it your vet, a behaviorist or a local rescue worker). Good luck...

[Daybreak]

This has come on slow...thence my also slow progression in change of approach. When we picked him out, I lifted him, and gently held him like a baby for just a few seconds, didn't want to alarm him, and he instantly sorta snapped of my hand, then settled, not in play and I thought'hmm, willing to snap when stressed, huh?)I was thinking of the kids, and also stockwork for timidity(maybe not an issue, really don't have much experience with a whole lot of herding), he also shied first time I knealt down and asked him to come up. I thought he may have some fear issues a little, and then started looking at the other pup available. I really didn't like him that well , so came back to Colt, and this time all went fine. My DH checked him out too, and we decided on him at 5 weeks.Thought I was being over analytical, I have that tendency sometimes, I take getting a pup seriously(esp. this one!)and he was just being a ornery pup.I don't mind a little ornery He was younger than I would like to pick a pup, but the breeder, papers, herding relatives, and mom and grandma I met all seemed fine. Jokes on me, I guess.

 

He started getting a bit attitudie(is that a word?) but I dimissed it, thinking it was just maybe my softer approach with more preventative and treats. Never did really want to play much, but he loves being near me and learning obedience stuff( uninterested in fetch, even for treats, "find it" made him mad) so I settled on that for now and hoped he would grow into the rest, try again later.

 

Then he started resource guarding and I had a sinking feeling he may not work. Upped positive experiences substantially, added some corrects, 3 days later, he bit our daughter(she still, a week and a half or so later has some marks.). Then I really knew we had a problem. Thought I screwed up with my first approach, as I hadn't much of this problem at all before.I could take a real bone right out of Wrangler's mouth, Smitty's for that matter, though I didn't abuse that right.It is getting worse daily, esp. his attitude, no matter what approach I have. Last night he was biting himself.. I think he's disturbed.

 

I agree with the possible health issue, in a previous post I considered a seizure disorder as well... BUT...no matter the reason, this is his default mode in stress. I can't keep it for our childrens sake. I wasn't married/no children when I had the cocker when he was young.And Smitty never actually bit.I have kids now, special needs to boot.Would anyone want to take that into their home.There are lots of puppies/dogs that need great homes that may be safer/better for those people. I would think him being a puppy would be buffering some of this...will it be even more bold it an unplanned bad situation as he ages? I don't know.

 

I don't want to take him to a shelter.. that's why I brought it up so ya'll knew where I was at on it.. sorry for the misunderstanding, I know it is hard just seeing written words. I'm sorry

 

Haven't heard from rescue. Emailed them as they have no phone number posted anywhere in the internet that I could find. UGH

 

Edited to add: Oh, and yes, I checked for pain all over, none found, no "touchy" spots. Handle him regularly though.

 

On another note, I edited my first post to add that my husband has said he's jealous that he hasn't had that kind of relaionship with a dog, not of me and the dogs. Realized that may of came off differently than was meant Tried to make my posts a bit clearer

 

On a more happy note

So how are normal bcs like as differing to other breeds, if you don't mind me asking? I figured to be outsmarted some more, and maybe more quirks( I love quirks , makes dogs unique ), and more energy perhaps, needing more mental stimulation(which works, I was hoping to teach Colt to help pick up toys, etc around the house to help, you know, like a special needs mom service dog!?!). Are they touchier? As in easier to "ruin" somehow? What ARE they like to live with?

 

 

Thank you all so much for your insight, viewpoints and help.Also, special thank you to madrose124 it was your post that really helped the other posts start to sink in and pull me out of the situation enough to get a more objective view. Thank you, I needed it

[Root Beer]

So how are normal bcs like as differing to other breeds, if you don't mind me asking? I figured to be outsmarted some more, and maybe more quirks( I love quirks , makes dogs unique ), and more energy perhaps, needing more mental stimulation(which works, I was hoping to teach Colt to help pick up toys, etc around the house to help, you know, like a special needs mom service dog!?!). Are they touchier? As in easier to "ruin" somehow? What ARE they like to live with?

 

Well, I have to remember back quite a ways - 12 years - but yes, very, very energetic. My Border Collie puppy needed both physical and mental stimulation. He was always into something - I remember having tote bags nailed to the walls that I could stick things that I didn't have time to put away properly into so he wouldn't get to them!

 

The only thing that I really remember that was particular to him as a Border Collie was that he started to stare, crouch, and stalk very suddenly! I knew nothing about Border Collies at the time and I had no clue what the heck he was doing or why!!

 

He had no "off switch" and I had to teach him to settle. It wasn't difficult, but it was definitely something he had to learn. I did have to get used to the staring (which is strange to me now because it is such a normal part of life) and the different way that he, as a Border Collie interacted with me, but I didn't mind that because I loved him.

 

He came to love tennis balls very quickly. I read online that Border Collies were supposed to be "obsessed with tennis balls", so I saw that it happened!! He did the typical bring it sort of close, drop it, stare at it - never did teach him to retrieve to hand, although I gave up trying early on.

 

He was always happy at home and very sweet. I just loved being around him. I used to say he was so lovable he was practically an obsession (a line I stole from a book). He actually wasn't snuggly, but just being near him was a joy.

 

He wasn't a perfect puppy. Had some serious fear issues that it took quite a while - and a lot of work on my part - to overcome. But that didn't really have any bearing on him at home. Aside from being very, very high energy and typical destructo-puppy until he learned better, he was a very easy puppy. Never cried in his crate at night. Never was a biter, nor did he ever guard anything from me in his entire life.

 

As far as easy to "ruin", I would have to say not necessarily. I really had no idea whatsoever what I was doing when I got him as a puppy. I made endless mistakes, but when I learned better I did better and there were never any long term ill-effects of those mistakes. Speedy's temperament wasn't perfect - he had the fear going and all - but he always, always, always had the kind of attitude most of us want our dogs to have toward us.

 

I'm sorry that you are going through this with your puppy. I wish I could remember more particulars to tell you, but that's what I remember about life with a Border Collie puppy.

 

Based on what I know, your experience is not at all typical . . . . I would be alarmed and deeply concerned, even after working with a good many "special needs" dogs, to see that in a puppy as young as yours.

[G. Festerling]

I almost hate to ask this...but can you tape an "incident"? Not wanting to suggest you set up a chance for him to get in trouble....but I am just troubled at an 11 week old being that nasty.

[TEC]

I almost hate to ask this...but can you tape an "incident"? Not wanting to suggest you set up a chance for him to get in trouble....but I am just troubled at an 11 week old being that nasty.

With due respect to G. Festerling, I don't believe videoing is a particularly good idea. The little puppy has already displayed biting and aggression for which a visit to Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist (CAAB or ACAAB) or a board-certified veterinary behaviorist (Dip ACVB) is in order. Once that has been accomplished, the counter-conditioning exercises for food bowl guarding, for instance, are extensive and well-delineated. To be done properly for an entire family,IMO, de-conditioning may require work for weeks up to a month or more. If an owner is uncomfortable/nervous about the dog/puppy, tethering during the first stages of the exercises should be considered. Protocols for RG desensitization are laid out in the book, "Mine! A Guide to Resource Guarding in Dogs" (2002) by Jean Donaldson, and can be found on Amazon.com or Dogwise.com. If videoing is considered, try for a reasonably successful example done in accordance with professional advice, and with all safeguards.

 

Sounds to me that OP is ready to give the puppy over to a good organization, therefore I don't see the value of obtaining an audio/video recording, as compared to the risk involved. It also has the potential, unless done properly, to further instill bad habits. -- TEC

[GentleLake]

Am I reading this right . . . the breeder sold him to you at 5 weeks?

 

In many stats now it's illegal to sell a pup before it's 7 or even 8 weeks old -- because it's such a bad idea! You might want to check with your townships ACO and/or the one where the breeder lives to see if he broke the law. It would give you some recourse in getting your money back, though I hope you wouldn't return the pup to him.

[Daybreak]

Our state only does that for retailers and businesses. Lots of loop holes. Just researched it but great thought.

 

Also no go on a puppy lemon law, another great thought.

 

We brought him home at 7 weeks, and put a deposit down on him at 5 weeks.

 

Just to let you all know, we have decided it was best for all concerned, including all those GREAT pets out there without a home, that the buck stops here. Its the right thing to do.As I wrote someone earlier, perhaps we will have saved some other poor child/adult getting attacked by a dog. Our son still has his scars....

 

Can't see the point in delaying the inevitable. This is hard on the family.

 

We never beat that pup, nor tried to traumatize him- why would we? We wanted him! We wanted a great family pet, and helper/partner.We had dreams! We wanted him! But I will say that as a family this has been truly terrible(tramatized??). Wow what a mess.

 

If your a breeder out there, and conduct business in this fashion, I beg you to carefully consider this thread and the weight of your actions. A child bit, a pup dead, the broken hearts of a family, a sacrifice not benefited. It ain't worth it, and you will have to answer for not helping, so please don't,... please don't take advantage! We have a responsibility for these animals, no they are not humans, but they are in our care!

 

Is this what you would like done to your family?

 

Thank you all for your help, insights and experience, as well as kind words. It meant a whole lot. We made this decision ourselves, so please don't feel responsible.

 

Thanks.

[Sue R]

I admire your thoughtfulness and making a hard decision based on what's best for all concerned. The sad thing is that some animals are just not wired right - that's not a good life for an animal and it poses hazards for people and other animals around them. That's too much of a risk to take.

 

I sincerely hope that you find the right animal to occupy that place in your home, your family, and your hearts. I also hope that there are others who can benefit from your experience so that there is a positive out come for someone from this sad situation.

 

Very best wishes.

[TEC]

... A child bit, a pup dead...

I feel for your situation, and IMO, due to your young children, finding a different pet is probably the right thing to do.

 

It shouldn't have to mean a death sentence. An 11-12 week old pup has resource guarded, and injured your child. Serious and alarming. Yet books are written on how to fix it, and classes are provided. I differ from those on this thread who believe a little pup who RGs is somehow bad to the bone. It's a behavior, not necessarily a character flaw, and without a well-qualified animal behaviorist saying Colt's hardware is defective, I'm not ready to go there.

 

It may be a software glitch, and that kind of thing has the potential to be re-programmed. That little pup may have grown up in a cold dark barn competing for enough food among a large litter. Some breeders feed from one bowl, all the puppies fighting for position and nutrition, where only the fittest thrive. "Fittest" meaning the toughest/best/smartest, who have learned to be the most aggressive little SOBs in the litter . We don't know for sure how the breeder raised them, but his advice and reaction to you were not very good. In any event, dog behavior can be unlearned.

 

There must be a rescue organization/person out there somewhere that, knowing that he RGs and bit your little child in a moment of distraction/inattention (did I understand he didn't break skin?), would still be willing to evaluate him, and get him to an appropriate home. Maybe a rural location with dog-savvy owners (yes, somewhat like yours), who have no children in the home... people who have the time and resources to attempt to safely re-program his software. Given what is known about Colt, neutered and in the right circumstances, he might be a wonderful working sheepdog. Heck, I'd be willing to give him a try, if I had a place in our home. Sadly, I do not.

 

Just some thoughts. I don't wish to make this harder than it already is for you. -- Very best wishes, TEC

[urge to herd]

ahh, Daybreak, you are a stand-up human being. Integrity is a rare commodity, and you seem to have a bunch. Doing the right thing, not only for your family, but for others down the line, is a tough decision in this case. I'm so sorry that things have come to this, but please know that you are doing what your heart AND your brain are telling you is right.

 

I hope that the coming days are gentle for you all, and that someday you have the right pup for your family. My heart is with you today.

 

Ruth

[Gloria Atwater]

TEC, I know you mean well, but this is truly not the time to reprimand this family for making such a bitter choice.

Few if any rescues will take in a dog with aggression issues and this pup did not in any way sound entirely right. Certainly I would not want to take on a pup like this - not when there are so many good ones out there.

The thing to remember is that this was not a one-time bite. If you revisit her original post, the pup has a growing history of unstable behavior not usual for a puppy of his age. And certainly not acceptable for a family dog.

Now is the time for us to be kind, not to speak of might-have-beens.
Best regards,

Gloria

[Gloria Atwater]

I can't say how sorry I am. It's a dreadful situation and it is in NO way your fault.

My friend whom I spoke of who had put down a dangerous Aussie was told the same thing by the breeder: that she must have done something, that she didn't understand the dog, that she mishandled her, etc. But it's not your fault, any more than my friend was to blame for her dog's tragic case. You made the best decision possible in an untenable situation. I'm so sorry it was ever your decision to make.

Blessings to you and yours. I wish you well and a happier future.

~ Gloria

 

 

We never beat that pup, nor tried to traumatize him- why would we? We wanted him! We wanted a great family pet, and helper/partner.We had dreams! We wanted him! But I will say that as a family this has been truly terrible(tramatized??). Wow what a mess......

 

Thank you all for your help, insights and experience, as well as kind words. It meant a whole lot. We made this decision ourselves, so please don't feel responsible.

 

Thanks.