G. Festerling Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 I am not sure yet that this dog is that bad...plain and simple. It is a 11 week old pup. Aggression ok....plus, you may want to read...I did not suggest to set something up...was wondering if she can show something....simple. It is tough for me to believe anyone would sentence an 11 week old pup to death or rescue on the basis of a computer. I know that there is a child with challenges in the home. Kids come first. But that does not mean that this could not be super undue stress on a pup that can't deal. Very simple. Sometimes stuff happens. But I am wondering because this came on slow as well. So either way, I am very uncomfortable with this direction this has taken. Very much so. And edited to add....not saying that is not the way it has to go. But still, sad either way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEC Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 I am not sure yet that this dog is that bad...plain and simple... ...Sometimes stuff happens. But I am wondering because this came on slow as well. So either way, I am very uncomfortable with this direction this has taken. Very much so. I am with you. I just can't stand back and say kill Colt or condone it, without knowing a lot more. Reasons: 1) Daybreak has not previously seen border collie puppy behavior on a day to day basis, 2) Colt likely had a horrible first 7-8 weeks at the breeder's place, 3) I personally believe that raising a puppy with little children in the house is extremely difficult, while others may have different experiences. In any event, it has the potential to put stress on the puppy and all parties, 4) Sounds like only one true bite happened as result of resource guarding, which did not break the skin, along with other snappy behavior, 5) So far, no attempts at desensitization, and 6) No certified behaviorist or other professional has seen this puppy. I still remember one of the first times I threw a ball for my border collie. When I saw her head and shoulders go low, eyes fixed, creeping slowly toward me and the ball, it sent a shiver up my spine. I really didn't know what to make of it. Didn't take long to understand that is good BC style. Some hyper border collies puppies, especially in the evening after their dinner, can get mouthy and bitey (wanting to climb on seated people) when the entire family is gathered, for instance, around the TV. I didn't understand it at the time, but now realize it was a border collie form of playfulness or wanting attention, or whatever. In any event, my first question at puppy class was how to deal with that kind of craziness, and of course, we went home with a wire crate. Best thing ever. Puppy gets hyper and misbehaves, and into the crate for a time-out she goes. Worked like a charm. It is really hard, IMO, for a little puppy that might already be over-threshold to understand what "get back" means. Daybreak has not had success with this command, and understandably so. I can see how that command could escalate the emotions of a puppy who is, for example, angrily resource guarding a pool of vomit on the carpet. When my dog was young, I had to learn to simply give a down or sit command to keep things static, rather than try to make her move back away from something. "Get out/back" is one of her best skills now. I give the above instances only to show that I had a lot to learn about a high energy breed (and still do), and expect that many people who raise a border collie for the first time, have to discover, as well Due to no fault of her own, Colt is not the right puppy for Daybreak's household. Her children come first. I am not critical of OP. It just didn't work out. I believe there is a likelihood Colt's behavior is somewhat overblown and/or misinterpreted, chiefly because Daybreak is not familiar with difficult examples of the border collie breed, like Colt. In some cases, to protect herself and children, she may be doing things in good faith that are counter-productive to Colt. The breeder probably has run-over Colt once. I say don't go back and finish the job based on what has actually occurred thus far. Please try to give the little guy another chance. Make contact with reasonable number of rescue agencies, and get their responses. Please make a good attempt, before considering another alternative. -- Best wishes, TEC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camden's Mom Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 It is tough for me to believe anyone would sentence an 11 week old pup to death or rescue on the basis of a computer. I know that there is a child with challenges in the home. Kids come first. But that does not mean that this could not be super undue stress on a pup that can't deal. Very simple. Sometimes stuff happens. But I am wondering because this came on slow as well. So either way, I am very uncomfortable with this direction this has taken. Very much so. I have to agree with G. Festerling and TEC... I feel like a puppy is being sentenced to death via internet. Was full vetting done? Was the puppy ever seen by a behaviorist or a qualified BC rescue worker? I do not believe the OP should keep the puppy but are there really no other options besides euthanasia? I'm not trying to cause the OP undue stress, I believe she is taking the decision very seriously, but I do question the decision to euthanize an 11 week old puppy based on an internet forum thread started three days ago. I'm also extremely uncomfortable with the direction this has taken. (I want to be clear, I am not opposed to euthanasia of an animal with severe or dangerous behavioral problems. However, I feel it is our responsibility to at least try to help the animal before making this final, un-reversable decision) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 It is true that all we have is the OP's description of her puppy's behavior. If this is an accurate representation of what is happening in her house, then I agree the puppy should not stay. The breeder is said to be refusing to take the puppy back. If a Rescue declines to accept the puppy and no one else offers to take the pup, then I believe the kindest, most responsible thing the OP can do is put the puppy down. Throughout this conversation, I have been thinking of a member at my dog training club who got a puppy of another breed at the same time I got Quinn. From the start, that puppy was extremely aggressive and dominant with other dogs. The member brought the puppy to the club to interact with another member's dog who had just had a litter. Several of us watched this little puppy in an x-pen with the adult dog. It was very aggressive and dominant, not the usual puppy play and the adult ended up giving a few increasingly hard corrections before the puppy ratcheted down its behavior.. All of us, except for one, told the puppy's owner to return it to the breeder. One person thought that since the puppy modified its behavior, it might be ok. The member ended up keeping the puppy. She worked hard, offered lots of socialization, tons of training in obedience, agility and basic manners. This was a very experienced person who had owned and trained this breed for years The pup remained problematic and as it matured became increasingly aggressive towards other dogs, including its own housemates. So now it is 8 1/2 years later and this dog has attacked the woman's other dog a number of times, twice quite badly. It has gone after other dogs in public, though fights were prevented. By the time the woman threw in the towel and was willing to return the dog to the breeder, the breeder refused to take the dog even though a number of other puppies in this dog's litter had been put down for aggression. The woman's vet refused to put down a "healthy dog." She has to keep her dogs completely separated at all times. The dog was just diagnosed with lymphoma. The plan is to keep the dog comfortable and when that is no longer possible, put it down. I would get a new vet. And I never would have kept that puppy. I would not keep a puppy like the one the OP describes and I do not have children. If I couldn't find anyone who understood what kind of puppy this is and had the skills to take on a very long, labor intensive project, then I would put it down. Based on what the OP describes, this puppy needs to be out of the house ASAP. It sounds like heartbreak now or weeks, months or years of increasing heartbreak in the future. There is too much at stake (children's safety). Again, this is based on what has been described, which is not by any stretch, normal puppy behavior. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emilyfalk Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 I'm afraid to say that I've been thinking euthanasia from the start. I'm so sorry for your situation and am impressed by your thoughtfulness during this emotional time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 I didn't see this post before and I am sorry I didn't respond sooner. What I am about to say is in no way meant to make the OP second guess a decision. I don't have kids in my house and I had experience when I got the pup who bit me. Being an adult only household, my risk was my own to take. I didn't have to be responsible for a kid getting mauled. I bought a pup from a farm situation, raised in a barn and not handled a ton. Big litter, so maybe they were fighting over limited food? Don't know. Got her home at 8 weeks old and her second night she attacked me when I touched her. She was chewing on a rawhide when this happened. I had never seen such fierce aggression from a pup. Thankfully I had a fair amount of experience already with raising Border Collie pups. I immediately instituted a training and handling program. The first time I tried to touch her feet she screamed, snarled and tried to bite like a wild animal. I kept working with her. Eight weeks later she passed a therapy dog certification test and went on to have a great career visiting people in nursing homes, hospitals, etc. I think her early upbringing made her into such a fierce little pup, but training and handling turned that all around. At that time I started to think that any puppy with behavioral problems could be fixed. I was wrong. I have seen plenty since that have become scary aggressive and dangerous despite a correct upbringing. However, I don't think all aggressive pups are without hope. Just food for thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 What if the OP can't find a rescue or individual who is willing to try to rehab this puppy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 Sorry, I know this is a total tangent. . . . Liz, how old are you saying this dog was when it passed its therapy dog certification? Most therapy dog agencies won't certify a dog younger than a year old, but you post sounds like you're saying she was only 16 weeks old when certified? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camden's Mom Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 What if the OP can't find a rescue or individual who is willing to try to rehab this puppy? I think everyone has agreed that it would be a terrible idea for the OP to try to keep/rehab this puppy. Through absolutely no fault of her own he's just too dangerous to be in her home. She has to keep her family safe, I understand and respect that. I think having Colt PTS would be the best option if no rescue or other qualified individual is willing to take him on. I am expressing concern about euthanasia because it is not clear to me how much has been done to even have him seen by a rescue. How many rescues have been contacted? What has the correspondence been between the OP and the rescue(s) she has reached out to? Have they told her they can't take the puppy, are they not even willing to meet Colt and assess the situation in person? Shouldn't someone who is qualified at least SEE this puppy and help the OP by either taking Colt into rescue OR confirming that the behavior is in fact not normal/dangerous and that having him PTS is her best option? If I were in this situation I'd want to exhaust all of my options before making the final decision for this puppy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 She was certified the day she turned 16 weeks old. That was the minimum required age for the Cornell Companions program. They do use the same test as TDI. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted February 12, 2014 Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 Thanks for the clarification, Liz. I didn't know anyone certified that young. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edawg Posted February 13, 2014 Report Share Posted February 13, 2014 What happened to Colt?I'm new here, but this is jmho after 30 years of having dogs and a new bc pup. Take it for what it's worth.I'm a new bc owner, but not unfamiliar with dogs of different temperaments and sometimes we set high expections of what we want them to be or to measure up to what we had.With some of my pups, I would have gladly accidentally left the gate open, and with the last two I could have extended that well into their 5th birthday, just kidding of course. I have my first bc like you, and I've had 5 dogs in the last 30 years. No kids, I work full time, but I can and must devote time to her development. I've had her since she was 8 weeks old, and she's 8 months now.Everyone seems to think that bc's are so smart that training will be a breeze and they'll pick up on the family dynamics and nuances right away. Other breeds may just adapt better because...well, they may be lower drive dogs. You do have a lot going on in your life with young children, another dog and regardless of how organized you may be, life happens.My new bc is the youngest pup I've had in many years and her biting and nipping went on until 3 months? It's over now and she's delightful to be with. They're mouths are their hands and it brings them pleasure, but they need to learn to control that.The biting of your children concerns me at Colt's young age and if you don't have the resources to address that, you will lose Colt and that decision to put him down will come after he's gotten enough control to stalk you down a hallway while your husband's gone. The next step is the denial of his aggression until he goes after your husband. Pecking order: he's already started with your kids. I have the t-shirt from that 30 years ago, I will never make those mistakes again. The memories of having to put down a healthy 5 year old dog are painful, but we know much more now than we did then, and there shouldn't be any excuses with the knowledge and resources we have now. That's obviously the last resort, but when you've reached that point it's over for Colt; you can't return him, and you can't re-home him. You need to fix it now. 11 weeks is not a point in his life to consider that.Resource guarding...you should be able to ask Colt to sit after he's eaten some of his dinner, remove his dish to add some goodies, and then let him finish hopefully without him showing aggression. Hand feeding him meals might be a good idea, but you need to devote some time to do that.Does he get enough sleep for a pup, like 12 hours? My pup gets a little cranky if she doesn't get enough sleep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandysfarm Posted February 13, 2014 Report Share Posted February 13, 2014 it could be a good idea to take a quick look at the four pages of this thread... just so as to relieve the OP of feeling obligated to deal with any redundancy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloria Atwater Posted February 14, 2014 Report Share Posted February 14, 2014 11 weeks is not a point in his life to consider that. Please read the entirety of this thread, as well as reading the first post closely. It's important to know the whole story. It is true that all we have is the OP's description of her puppy's behavior. If this is an accurate representation of what is happening in her house, then I agree the puppy should not stay. The breeder is said to be refusing to take the puppy back. If a Rescue declines to accept the puppy and no one else offers to take the pup, then I believe the kindest, most responsible thing the OP can do is put the puppy down. This. If there is nowhere for the pup to go and no way it can stay in the home, and dumping at the pound is not an option, the choices become very slim. ~ Gloria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnewe2 Posted February 14, 2014 Report Share Posted February 14, 2014 Daybreak may I ask where you are located. I for one am more than willing to take a look at Colt and give another's opinion. He doesn't seem like a fit for you household in the least and I am glad you have recognized this early. But had I written about my own pup (the last one) she would sound like a pup that isn't wired quite right either. I wouldn't trust her with a 10ft pole or anything else with any children. She wasn't socialized with children so has issues with them. But even if she was (socialized better), I don't think she'd be a pup that can be in certain situations. Kids, very loud or active home, lots of what most would call normal would be my girls worst nightmare. And she has no issues with trying to nip/bite my grandkids if she thinks she can get away with it. She is never left unsupervised with anyone that seems to geek her out. But luckily I don't have children and she loves the other 2 people I live with. She fits me to a T and I have no problem putting up with her "issues". I would like to see someone here speak up and help you. If you live anywhere near my area I am very happy to do so. Everything written about Colt's circumstances sounds pretty bad, but one person's observations even if right seem very quick to condemn Colt's life. 11 weeks isn't much time to really know Colt or how he's going to turn out except for the fact that he doesn't work for your families circumstances. So depending on where you are located, I am offering to help you and Colt. I can drive maybe 3-4 hours to reach you if need be. I am willing to foster Colt and hopefully be able to help find him a new home where he might thrive and be safe for all people involved. I live near St. Louis MO. I also understand, given your circumstances, it would be hard for you to make a trip to see me if it is much of a drive. And for the record, I am also willing to have Colt PTS if I find he is a dangerous dog, which is a very hard decision to make and live with for anyone. I do not want any money and would not be willing to pay you any money to "buy" Colt. At this point it seems to me a rescue situation. Not a sell him to make your initial investment back. Please understand I am not picking on you nor am I trying to misinterpret or belittle your experience or posts. Just offering a different persons help or objective opinion and would like to do it in person. My qualifications are about 17 years experience with border collies, some with similar issues that Colt seems to be having, and currently live on a 17 acre small sheep farm. I own 3 border collies of varying ages that are pretty stable (the pup I spoke about is fine with other border collies) so hopefully would not add to the stress of Colt. Good luck with whatever you end up doing and please know I am serious about making myself available to you and Colt if logistics can work at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted February 14, 2014 Report Share Posted February 14, 2014 Oh, I hope the OP is still reading this thread. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camden's Mom Posted February 14, 2014 Report Share Posted February 14, 2014 The OP would've had to give a personal email address to sign up for the boards... I wonder if Eileen could contact her privately and let her know about Kristen's post and incredibly generous offer? (Sorry, Eileen if that suggestion is totally out of line) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted February 14, 2014 Report Share Posted February 14, 2014 The OP hasn't posted in a while now, which suggests to me that a decision has been made and quite possibly carried out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEC Posted February 14, 2014 Report Share Posted February 14, 2014 Daybreak, the OP, as I recall said she had contacted only one rescue agency/person, who had not as yet responded. She may have in the meantime located a temporary home for Colt. -- TEC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnewe2 Posted February 14, 2014 Report Share Posted February 14, 2014 I have PM'd Daybreak and hopefully it is not to late for something to be done. I am sorry I didn't step up a few days ago but have found this particular situation has been tugging at my mind and heart since I've read about Colt. I don't normally do fostering, I have in the past but at this time it is not something I choose to do. But for Colt I feel the need to step up. Hopefully she will contact me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waffles Posted February 14, 2014 Report Share Posted February 14, 2014 I think the OP said she contacted Buckeye BC rescue in Ohio so I would assume she is in the Ohio area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnewe2 Posted February 14, 2014 Report Share Posted February 14, 2014 Depending on where in Ohio we could possibly meet half way or something. Anyone here that might help with the transport? I cant make it more than a day in traveling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urge to herd Posted February 14, 2014 Report Share Posted February 14, 2014 Kristen, you rock. Hope you hear from Daybreak soon. Ruth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G. Festerling Posted February 14, 2014 Report Share Posted February 14, 2014 Kristen, simply put, thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnewe2 Posted February 14, 2014 Report Share Posted February 14, 2014 I hope it is alright for me to respond with information that I have, it is only with good intentions that I inform everyone of what has happened. It is with a heavy heart that Daybreak responded to a pm that I sent her. She and her DH made the decision to put Colt down and that is what they have done. Her emotions are raw and her heart is surely broken so she has backed out of this discussion for now. I hope we can all accept her decision and offer her the wisdom and sympathy of these boards without judgment. Which is what I have and will continue to do. I also hope that she decides to stay on these boards and learn. Lessons that will help her find the perfect dog for her family. Be it a border collie or some other breed that will show her children and herself the love and devotion a dog can give a family. One more thing..... All we have is what is written on these boards. No one can really know what is going on with people coming here looking for advise other than the words they put down. What we write and don't write can and does have huge impact on people and their dogs lives. Hopefully people will put serious thought into how they advise and respond. Realizing it has the possibility to have huge consequences no matter what way things go, now and in the future. Thank you for your kind words. I do not feel special for offering to help. I did it because this pup and his person called to my heart. I feel sad that I might have been to late but still offer no judgment for Daybreak. She did what she felt was best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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