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Does anyone know if any channel will be showing Crufts? it is coming up soon isnt it?

 

Thanks!

 

The dates are March 11-14. Not sure if it's being televised over here. The obedience competition is interesting. It's quite different than what we do in the US.

 

Janet

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I think what shocked me the most after watching the televised expose of the genetic problems is how far many of the currents breeds have deviated from recorded photos of the breeds taken 100 or so years ago. There was none of some of the weird exagerated features that have been bred for and the associated problems you see now and of course many of the various working breeds were used as true working dogs back then and needed to be fit, athletic and with great instinct.

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Crufts?! :D Read the "Read This First" section at the top of this forum or here --

 

Read this first

 

-- and you will realize that this board would be happy if Crufts disappeared from the face of the earth! And Westminster too!

 

I can understand why so many Border Collie enthusiast dont like Crufts or Westminster or any conformation show, but i thought Crufts would be a great way to see competition obedience, agility, flyball, etc. are competition obedience, agility etc looked down upon too? and herding is the only thing a border collie is accepted as? (im not trying to add fuel to the fire or anything, really im just asking to find out :rolleyes:)

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I can understand why so many Border Collie enthusiast dont like Crufts or Westminster or any conformation show, but i thought Crufts would be a great way to see competition obedience, agility, flyball, etc. are competition obedience, agility etc looked down upon too? and herding is the only thing a border collie is accepted as? (im not trying to add fuel to the fire or anything, really im just asking to find out :rolleyes:)

 

This was confusing to me too, when I first came aboard. But as I understand it, it isn't that "we" look down on competition obedience, agility or flyball per se. The problem is twofold - first, we believe that the one absolutely essential trait that should be bred for in the Border Collie is working ability - which of course means a dog that is sound mentally and physically, but not to someone's notion of what a sound dog should look like.

 

It doesn't matter if the dog's hocks are "well let down" if he/she isn't a useful stock dog. Which brings us to the second problem. If you breed Border Collies for any reason other than to produce the very best stockdog possible, then you are diminishing the single most important trait (working ability) - and only real reason - for these dogs to exist, and these kind of breeding practices will ultimately destroy this breed. If you are breeding Border Collies to excel at agility or flyball, for instance, you are not focusing on the dogs' ability to work stock.

 

Supporting any AKC or KC activity is problematical, because the basic line of thought behind the AKC or the KC is to breed dogs to look a certain way. If you support an event put on by people with this breeding philosophy you are setting the example of condoning the theory and practice of breeding dogs put forth by the "breed fancy."

 

Doing flyball, agility, obedience, frisbee, sled-racing with Border Collies is just dandy, and there are people on the boards who do all of these things with their dogs. But ideally, if one should wish to acquire a dog for pursuing these activities, one should acquire the Border Collie from a breeder who breeds working stock dogs. This type of breeder will not be an AKC or KC breeder.

 

And then, having acquired this dog, by all means, compete in whatever sport you wish as long as your individual dog is fit for it. Just don't do it in venues sponsored by the AKC, KC, or any other organization that espouses such wrongheaded notions about what a dog - a Border Collie - should be.

 

Ok, senior members... What did I leave out or say poorly?

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You are assuming absolute wrongs and rights to a generation who just doesn't believe in them. It's relative. What isn't right for you may be right for me.

Could be, but this board does have a philosophy, and it's clearly stated in the "Read Me First." It's one of the things I really, really like about this board. It's refreshing that a group stands strong for its beliefs. No cultural relativism here! :rolleyes:

 

As to activities, the "Read Me First" also clearly states that people who do activities other than stock work with their border collies are equally welcome. Breeding for anything other than ability to work stock usefully is unacceptable.

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You are assuming absolute wrongs and rights to a generation who just doesn't believe in them. It's relative. What isn't right for you may be right for me.

 

I'm 27 and about as non-conformist as one can imagine. However, I do know what is right and what is wrong for a Border Collie. The right thing for a Border Collie is to be bred to a strict working standard. Not for being a show dog, or for agility or for "candy colors." Just like I think German Shepherds should be bred for a schutzhund and not AKC standard. It just turns out better dogs.

 

I don't work Mick on sheep anymore, because I don't have the money for lessons, but I consider myself lucky to get a good dog from working lines, even though his main exercise is playing frisbee at the dog park these days.

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You are assuming absolute wrongs and rights to a generation who just doesn't believe in them. It's relative. What isn't right for you may be right for me.

 

So....let me get this straight. What's on the outside is more important than what's on the inside? I think you do a lot of people a disservice with a remark like that.

 

You bet I'll assume absolute wrongs and rights. Breeding dogs for looks is wrong. Plain and simple.

 

There is nothing "right" about the damage done to a German Shepherd's hips to get it to trot in that flashy fashion. There is also nothing "right" about Bulldogs not being able to whelp naturally because the pups' heads are so enormous. Nothing "right," either, about the majority of Cavalier King Charles spaniels suffering from mitral valve disease. But hey, they LOOK pretty, right? I guess that's what counts in the end, for this generation?

 

:rolleyes:

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As an aside from the current direction this discussion is taking, I haven't watched dog shows on TV in a long while, but I don't think I've ever seen the other activities (obedience, agility, etc.) televised as part of Westminster at least. Don't know about Crufts specifically. Of course, if you're going to watch *in person* then I guess it would be a place to see those activities.

 

I assume though that the activities at Crufts would be limited to KC-registered dogs, and so I would not choose to support that.

 

I will say, though, that unfortunately, the vendors at KC events are amazing and you can find all sorts of really good stuff at shows (at least from what I've seen), so if there were a show nearby and I had money to burn, I might be tempted to visit the vendors....

 

J.

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I commented to Geonni Banner that was the only thing I thought she might not have considered. Let me make my point of view clear, I agree with this board on what it finds acceptable and what it doesn't... But I think when speaking to groups of unknown peoples and ages... you do have to factor in that and understand how things could be "heard". I just offered up something different to think about.

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You bet I'll assume absolute wrongs and rights. Breeding dogs for looks is wrong. Plain and simple.

Breeding for looks is not, in itself, the problem. The real issue is that it is done with no attention to health and genetic diversity. Breeding for some specific feature, for example milk fat content on cattle, has been done for many generations. The breeders, who have been selecting for the desired feature, are alos careful to maintain the health and diversity of the breed -- or face the consequences.

 

Now back to the world of dog fanciers. The consequences of a closed stud book and intensive inbreeding are a catastrophic decline in the health of show dogs to the point where it is painful to see dogs in a show who are hardly able to breathe or walk.

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As an aside from the current direction this discussion is taking, I haven't watched dog shows on TV in a long while, but I don't think I've ever seen the other activities (obedience, agility, etc.) televised as part of Westminster at least. Don't know about Crufts specifically. Of course, if you're going to watch *in person* then I guess it would be a place to see those activities.

J.

 

Westminster isn't all it's cracked up to be, even within the "dog fancy". It's. a conformation only show. There are none of the other activities that might seem interesting to the average person. Even then over the years it's become even more exclusive in that only finished dogs, i.e., dogs who are already champions are allowed to enter. It used to be that dogs needed at least one championship point to enter, but not any more. That probably explains why all of the entrants within a breed look like they were produced in an assembly line, cookie cutter process -- all the same.

 

Crufts has a lot of things going on at least. And from what I understand, some pretty neat booths with all sort of dog related stuff.

 

When it comes to the dogs, tomato, tomahto -- and it's a trip listening to a judge describe how they came to their decision on their pick. -- I spent a lot of years in that venue and what I've come away with is that most of these folks take themselves far too seriously.

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... and what I've come away with is that most of these folks take themselves far too seriously...

 

I think that's the case in all venues, be it conformation, agility, obedience, stockdogging, rescue, and even the pet community. I think the person that posted on the "pet names" thread hit the nail on the head when she said ...

 

... dogs are often an extension of the human ego ...

 

I almost spit my soda out on my keyboard.

 

Jodi

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I think that's the case in all venues, be it conformation, agility, obedience, stockdogging, rescue, and even the pet community.

Jodi

 

Uh, yeh. I realized what I wrote after I posted. Still, it's true. The obscene amount of money it takes to pull off a show like Westminster -- not only egos and dogs are intertwined, money really spices up that combination.

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I'm not into Conformation at all, but I enjoy watching the Musical Freestyle routines from Crufts. You can usually find them on Youtube.

 

It's not everyone's thing, but I definitely love watching those performances.

 

I guess I'm not really as focused on what the dogs look like, as how they perform. I'm also not really thinking about anyone's ego. I'm too busy appreciating the talent of both the dog and handler, and the amount of commitment, training, and dedication that it takes to build a routine to that level.

 

Different point of view, I suppose. :rolleyes:

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You are assuming absolute wrongs and rights to a generation who just doesn't believe in them. It's relative. What isn't right for you may be right for me.

 

This bothers me. There are absolute wrongs and rights no matter what generation you are born in. What is important here isn't what is right or wrong for certain people, but what is right and wrong for the future of the Border Collie breed. People think way too much about themselves these days and have little regard for anything else.

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I'm not into Conformation at all, but I enjoy watching the Musical Freestyle routines from Crufts. You can usually find them on Youtube.

 

It's not everyone's thing, but I definitely love watching those performances.

I guess I'm not really as focused on what the dogs look like, as how they perform.

Different point of view, I suppose. :rolleyes:

 

You almost sound apologetic. Don't be! I think you're focusing on exactly what someone watching those performances should be focusing on. It's entertainment value, plus you have the added knowledge of the steps it takes to bring a dog to that level of performance.

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There was a eukanuba dog show on the animal planet on last night and I just happened to flip to it has the 'herding' class was being presented. As a victim to my own curiosity I decided to watch to see what kind of barbies they paraded around the ring. Sure enough, just after the German Shepherd with his dwarfed back legs, the border collie was presented. What was especially disturbing was that the commentators ranted on about how perfect his markings were and how his broad chest would help him in the field. He also described the show ring as the dog's 'job' and how the dog was 'working' every time he stepped into the ring. I guess my dreams of my '30 lb not-flashy-at-all narrow-chested' Harper winning the Westminster are shot. Darn. I'll just have to do something productive with her. :rolleyes:

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t's relative. What isn't right for you may be right for me.

I agree.

 

That argument justifies any conduct, from rudeness to murder, which is why I don't find it persuasive. I wouldn't like to think there's a whole generation who does find it persuasive, but I guess we'll see.

 

Good statement, geonni.

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You almost sound apologetic. Don't be! I think you're focusing on exactly what someone watching those performances should be focusing on. It's entertainment value, plus you have the added knowledge of the steps it takes to bring a dog to that level of performance.

 

I don't mean to sound apologetic! I'm glad you pointed that out! :rolleyes:

 

I meant that to sound matter of fact. Musing a bit about the differences in what people see, but definitely matter of fact about my own point of view.

 

You guys know I love Freestyle, and I definitely enjoy watching the best in the world do something that I love. The Freestyle handlers and dogs at Crufts are among the best in the world.

 

I guess I do wish that the sports at Crufts were not connected to a Conformation show, but that is completely out of my control.

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