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Your comment re: working for and working with is an interesting observation. I've seen the same distinction in several dogs as well. For example, Scotty wanted nothing better than to figure out what you wanted and do that thing. Ladybug tries to figure out how to get you to do what she wants...but she's always ready to learn a new game as a full partner in the enterprise.

Liz

 

 

Just to clarify Bea is all about doing what one wants her to do, it is just with an entirely different feel behind it. I don't think I can articulate it without sounding flakey, but it's like she joins up with me and works off my entire being, body and mind and adds her self into the mix, whereas Colt works off my body and verbal commands and gives me what he thinks I want. Both of them get it right, but Bea is bringing something else into it and seems to check in with me more than Colt ever did. Checking into see if there is more not to see if she is right.

 

And this is only with playing ball, fetching things, obedience work and daily manners and such.

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Oh Ok. So if I give you my address and you can send the funds to fly my dogs and I to other venues ouside of my reach ? That would be nice .

You can count how many NADAC trials are in home range on one hand . Not enough for us.

Maybe a CPE and some UKC , but not nearly as many as AKC . I dont care if TRIPLE A ran a trial , I would participate in it because we love doing agility , not because of who is offering it.

 

If what you really love is "doing agility," you could be doing it in matches at your training facility, or you could buy/build equipment--either alone or getting together with friends--and "do" it any time you wanted to. There are plenty of informal ways of doing agility that you could train for and perform to the same standards as at the AKC trial. But of course you wouldn't get the AKC titles and ribbons. I guarantee you that wouldn't affect your dogs' enjoyment, though it might affect yours. (ETA: Sorry, I see that geonni made this point more clearly while I was writing this post.)

 

I would never condone anything if it was harming a dog , any dog. I was only using my dogs and I as a example to breed. I have no intentions of breeding my dogs at all. And have no intentions of breeding BC in general. Its amazing how fast something said by one person can be turned around ! Now I am a bad breeder who breeds agility dogs to get agility dogs.

 

Nobody said you were a bad breeder who breeds agility dogs. As I understood what you wrote, you have not bred at all. What people were addressing was the type of breeding you appeared to be championing, not any breeding you were personally doing.

 

I can undrstand what you said about being harmful to the breed. I see your point of that. I look at that now differently.

 

That's great. Thank you for thinking about it.

 

But it doesnt make me any worse of a person if I dont breathe fire when someone talks about AKC agility.

I dont have the funds to go to flying all over to do USDAA or any other venue. I know there are tons of USDAA trials in California and I wish I could travel there , but one of my main competing dogs wouldnt be able to cope being on a plane so I would never put her on one. Does that make me a better person in light of the fact that I wouldnt never put my dog ona flight just so I didnt have to participate in a AKC agility trial ?Or should I jsut say the heck with it , throw her on a plane , not care if she makes it ok , just so I can fund USDAA instead of AKC ?

 

Good heavens, no. Please don't do that to your dog!

 

But suppose that was the only way you could get to trials? Would you do it, and then say it's too bad, but there aren't enough trials near where you are so you have no choice but to "throw her on a plane, not care if she makes it ok"? I don't think you would, and I think you might judge that as being a pretty lame excuse if somebody else did it.

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Ok, I have a question for all the agility people out there who are following this thread. Does your dog enjoy running an agility course set up in your back yard more or less than one in a competition environment?

 

Maddie loves competition. She seems bored practicing Agility at home. She does like class, but at home she does not want to play. It's kind of odd, actually.

 

Dean prefers to practice at home. He is still learning about competition. It will be a while before I can say whether he will truly like it or not. He hasn't really had enough competition experiences to know yet.

 

How about one set up in a park with a bunch of people who know each other, but are just running for practice?

 

Maddie enjoys that a great deal. It's a lot more like competition than just practicing alone at home.

 

Dean enjoys this.

 

What I’m getting at is this: If the dogs, in fact, love running the course as well at home as they do at a trial, then it is not a question of whether there are non-AKC competition venues available or not. It is a question of whether the owner enjoys competition or not.

 

I've heard this and I relate a lot to it - not competing is like getting a formal dress, getting made up, getting your hair done, setting up a date and a limo, and then sitting on the sofa at home watching TV all dressed up.

 

Yes, we can do our sports in the privacy of our own homes. But for some of us, that's not enough. It's not necessarily that we have to be out there beating everyone or winning ribbons or getting a lot of prestige (shoot - if I was in it for the prestige, I may as well have quit a long time ago!)

 

But we spend a lot of time training and preparing and practicing and most of us do that for something.

 

That's not to say that everyone is driven to compete. I know people who don't who are perfectly happy with that. But a lot of us do want to get out in some fashion and put our training to the test while we enjoy a fantastic time with our dogs.

 

There is something about competition that no other setup can match. Some people are very turned off by that same quality that attracts many of us. There is stress, there are expectations, there is the anything-can-happen factor. But there is also the possibility that it will all go right and goals will be met.

 

Disclaimer: I don't run AKC Agility. I run CPE and NADAC. I am simply reflecting on the differences between competition and playing at home. It is very far from the same thing. Training at home is fun, but competition is very special. I like polls. Those questions were like a poll.

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Oh good GRIEF!! WHO has said this board is only for farmers? Who? No one. Why is it that people who don't believe in the underlying philosophy that governs these boards insist on coming here and arguing that it's perfectly okay to breed their sport, pet, etc. dogs? Why do you think Eileen has posted the READ THIS FIRST notice at the top of each discussion section? For her own jollies? Or because she really would like for board members to take heed of the foundational philosophy of this forum?

 

I guess I could counter your comment by saying that if you truly loved the border collie you wouldn't be arguing for breeding practices that will ulitmately fandamentally change what a border collie is. Haven't I read other statements from you regarding the sad state of the German Shepherd? Can you not see any similarities between the attitude that says it's okay to breed my sport dog or my conformation dog because *I don't want to work stock with that dog anyway* and the same attitude (I don't need a working shepherd it just has to look like what wins in the show ring) that has led to the demise of the German shepherd on the whole as a breed?

 

Oh, and I can't believe you really didn't understand Denise's point that working dogs make as good as or better agility dogs than sport bred dogs and so when you breed your sport dogs you really are taking away homes from properly working bred dogs. At least some sports folks are enlightened enough to understand that what made their dogs so great was the years of breeding for working ability that has gone into this breed. Too bad so many others are deliberately blind to that fact.

 

So go ahead and breed the hell out of your sport dogs and encourage all your friends to do the same. Just don't expect understanding and support here.

 

J.

 

 

Oh boy , how out of controp can one person get with a thread that read I am using my dogs as a EXAMPLE !!!!!

I never or ever will have intentions of breeding MY DOGS !!!!!! :rolleyes::D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

 

I personally dont know what you have read or what you havent J .

And how you feel about GSD and any other breed is your own opinion. I dont take it personally or even care . I dont plan on changing the world either. But , if YOU can, awesome.

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I would never condone anything if it was harming a dog , any dog. [/quote

 

That's the whole point. The ACK and KC [are harming our breed, lots of dogs.

By padding their pockets no matter how small an amount with agility trial money you are funding them.

 

Again, there's always an exception to the rule. It's ok for you to do this cause there are not trials in your area? But if we all said the same thing then we'd lose our breed that much quicker.

 

People take their stance, some might not breed, some might not trial ACK, some might bash ack anytime they get a chance. We all have to draw our lines but lets not confuse what our lines do for the breed.

I know I do things that I'm not exactly proud of but I don't defend those things, I admit my short comings and move on, hopefully learning a better way to work through what I'm doing that I wouldn't be proud of.

 

You really can't understand the difference between a nicly bred working bc and an extremely fast or what have you agility, flyball bred dog.

Untill you need your flyball or agility dog to do more than what it's been bred for. With a nicly bred working dog, they will stand the test of time and bring you through what ever it might be that you need. That's what made them good agility/flyball etc. dogs in the first place. Not so true with agility bred dogs. You'd never know what you were missing till it was long gone.

 

And as far as farmers....I'm one, I have working dogs but am totally looking forward to taking agility lessons this spring with my working dog. So I def. don't think it's what you do. it's what you breed or don't.

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I dont care if TRIPLE A ran a trial , I would participate in it because we love doing agility , not because of who is offering it.

 

I would absolutely HAVE to do that, for the weirdness factor alone.

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If what you really love is "doing agility," you could be doing it in matches at your training facility, or you could buy/build equipment--either alone or getting together with friends--and "do" it any time you wanted to. There are plenty of informal ways of doing agility that you could train for and perform to the same standards as at the AKC trial. But of course you wouldn't get the AKC titles and ribbons. I guarantee you that wouldn't affect your dogs' enjoyment, though it might affect yours. (ETA: Sorry, I see that geonni made this point more clearly while I was writing this post.)

 

 

 

Nobody said you were a bad breeder who breeds agility dogs. As I understood what you wrote, you have not bred at all. What people were addressing was the type of breeding you appeared to be championing, not any breeding you were personally doing.

That's great. Thank you for thinking about it.

Good heavens, no. Please don't do that to your dog!

 

But suppose that was the only way you could get to trials? Would you do it, and then say it's too bad, but there aren't enough trials near where you are so you have no choice but to "throw her on a plane, not care if she makes it ok"? I don't think you would, and I think you might judge that as being a pretty lame excuse if somebody else did it.

 

 

I think much more of my dogs then I do most people. :rolleyes:

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No , it doesnt. If the people wanted a good dog for agility that came from two good agility dogs , and they bought one of them instead of your pup , thats completely wrong ? The people dnt want nothing to do with sheep and dont care if their dog ever sees a sheep. Wouldnt you want to keep your pups for someone that works the sheep then do agility ?

Thats what I cant understand .

 

Breeding them on the random chance that they'll produce a decent agility pup, instead of breeding them for the sole purpose of what a Border Collie is designed to do is completely wrong.

 

Not all working-bred dogs are going to be great stock dogs. They'd make great pet or agility dogs, though. Plus there's so many dogs in rescue, why contribute to another senseless breeding?

 

Not to mention, if you want a guarantee on how a dog will do, starting out with a puppy isn't the best way to go about it.

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If what you really love is "doing agility," you could be doing it in matches at your training facility, or you could buy/build equipment--either alone or getting together with friends--and "do" it any time you wanted to. There are plenty of informal ways of doing agility that you could train for and perform to the same standards as at the AKC trial. But of course you wouldn't get the AKC titles and ribbons. I guarantee you that wouldn't affect your dogs' enjoyment, though it might affect yours. (ETA: Sorry, I see that geonni made this point more clearly while I was writing this post.)

 

 

 

Nobody said you were a bad breeder who breeds agility dogs. As I understood what you wrote, you have not bred at all. What people were addressing was the type of breeding you appeared to be championing, not any breeding you were personally doing.

That's great. Thank you for thinking about it.

Good heavens, no. Please don't do that to your dog!

 

But suppose that was the only way you could get to trials? Would you do it, and then say it's too bad, but there aren't enough trials near where you are so you have no choice but to "throw her on a plane, not care if she makes it ok"? I don't think you would, and I think you might judge that as being a pretty lame excuse if somebody else did it.

 

 

I have a complete set of equipment , both AKC , some UKC stuff too. Old , new , used. And please , running matches in no way takes the place of a real trial atmosphere . If you have a dog like I do , a rescue , with issues you can only dream up , having her take that first step in a real trial ring is a feeling like no other . And to have that same dog run a course and have fun , with all the noises and emotions gone wild , you would understand. I dont expect you do and theres nothing wrong with that. But dont tell me thats not good enough. Maybe its not good enough in your eyes , but it sure feels great knowing all your hard work has changed tyhis frightened BC into a secure , confidnet dog I knew she could be.

I was also told by the same people you think you are grouping me together with , that my BC , because of being a rescue , isnt good enough or is a waste of time , that I should go buy myself a good agility dog from one of "those" places.

In short , I told them to "bite me" . I will show them what she can do , being a rescue and having issues.

I didnt do anything for the glory of it. I have trained a beagle to do agility to the top levels . If you can do that ...well... enough said. I dont have to prove anything.

 

She knows its a competition and gets very excited. She knows when its a match and we can play around. Dont tell me you dont think the BC can tell the difference ?

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Breeding them on the random chance that they'll produce a decent agility pup, instead of breeding them for the sole purpose of what a Border Collie is designed to do is completely wrong.

 

Not all working-bred dogs are going to be great stock dogs. They'd make great pet or agility dogs, though. Plus there's so many dogs in rescue, why contribute to another senseless breeding?

 

Not to mention, if you want a guarantee on how a dog will do, starting out with a puppy isn't the best way to go about it.

 

No , starting out a puppy in agility isnt going to guarantee you anything. But I have done the rescue thing numerous times for agility prospects and have done well. But there is nothing wrong with wanting to start a puppy and being able to do it.

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At least the commentator didn't call the dog evil as the Westminster commentator did one year...he described the Border Collie's intelligence as "Evil" Good grief. :rolleyes:

 

LOL, I've referred to my Border Collie as an "evil genius" on occasion.

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I've heard this and I relate a lot to it - not competing is like getting a formal dress, getting made up, getting your hair done, setting up a date and a limo, and then sitting on the sofa at home watching TV all dressed up.

 

I don't get the analogy. Buying a formal dress, applying makeup, getting your hair done, and setting up a date and a limo are nothing like attending a party. They are totally different activities. Unless you like shopping and getting your hair done and applying makeup and making appointments, you'd never do any of those things unless they were a preparation for something else. But training for agility and running an agility course is a lot like "doing agility." Are you saying that none of the training or running a course to a high standard is enjoyable and rewarding in itself -- that the only point of doing it is so you can compete in a trial?

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Okay, understood, but by your example you obviously don't see anything wrong with anybody who feels that they have good agility (or you fill in the blank with whatever endeavor or sport you prefer) dogs to breed them. And that is so contrary to what everyone has been trying to explain (over and over again) concerning the breeding of Border Collies to maintain and improve the characteristics that make the breed so unique, useful, and adaptable.

 

And really, I'm addressing the "generic you" because what I'm saying applies to any and all who justify breeding for whatever reason suits themselves, no matter what the long-term consequences to the breed (or to the dogs languishing in the rescues and shelters) might be.

 

Well , some people havent been on the boards forever like most of you all. Some people look in the boards for other reasons , like other people who have BC , what sport , if any do they do ? Help with agility issues that come up.

Im not looking to change the world .

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No , starting out a puppy in agility isnt going to guarantee you anything. But I have done the rescue thing numerous times for agility prospects and have done well. But there is nothing wrong with wanting to start a puppy and being able to do it.

 

And, a working bred pup will work just fine for that.

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Oh boy , how out of controp can one person get with a thread that read I am using my dogs as a EXAMPLE !!!!!

I never or ever will have intentions of breeding MY DOGS !!!!!! :rolleyes::D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

I know full well that you were using your dogs as an example. It's your attitude that it's okay to do those sorts of breedings that I was taking exception to, not whether you personally plan to do so. And all the cute little lols in the world (talk about out of control!) won't change that.

 

I personally dont know what you have read or what you havent J .

 

Then you shouldn't mind if I remember things you've written and point out your hypocrisy.

 

And how you feel about GSD and any other breed is your own opinion. I dont take it personally or even care . I dont plan on changing the world either. But , if YOU can, awesome.

I'm not planning on changing the world, and I certainly doubt I'd change your mind, but I always operate under the assumption that lurkers read these threads and that *those people* might actually have open minds and be willing to listen and perhaps understand why the philosophy of this forum is what it is when it comes to breeding border collies. Whether you care about border collies or any other breed is pretty immaterial, given your comments on this thread, but I do like to think that other people do care and so I persist in posting to these threads, even after all this time.

 

J.

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Let me first preface this comment by stating that I came to these boards knowing absolutely nothing about BCs and have since learned a great deal including the belief that border collies should be bred for working ability and not looks. Before coming to these boards, I did not really think positively toward breeders because I have a friend who has one of the GSD dogs that has the "messed up" back legs. I could never figure out why his legs were that way until following the many discussions on these boards. All I knew at the time was that I felt very sad for that dog. I always thought why would someone do that to an animal, can't they see that dogs can't function at 100% when they are like that?

 

Anyway, on to my thought...(with no intent to continue to fuel the fire)

I can understand your point about agility in the AKC arena geonni banner, but I have to wonder at the same time how are sheepdog trials any different in terms of the need for competition on the humans part. I really think both types of competitions have to do with the ego more than anything else. I think one could argue positively that with sheepdog trials:

1) They allow the dog do what it was meant to do.

2) They allows the breed to remain strong because through competition and exposure, the best of the best could in theory be bred, thus possibly producing stronger dogs.

 

OK that is my thought, please don't flame me, I am still learning.....

 

 

 

The following is long, I apologize for that. It is also my opinion only, and I don't apologize for that. :rolleyes:

 

I don’t do agility. Not because I see anything wrong with it, but because I am physically challenged to a degree that my dog could run the course half a dozen times before I made it around just once. My knees are shot.

 

Ok, I have a question for all the agility people out there who are following this thread. Does your dog enjoy running an agility course set up in your back yard more or less than one in a competition environment? How about one set up in a park with a bunch of people who know each other, but are just running for practice?

 

What I’m getting at is this: If the dogs, in fact, love running the course as well at home as they do at a trial, then it is not a question of whether there are non-AKC competition venues available or not. It is a question of whether the owner enjoys competition or not.

 

My guess is, the dog doesn’t care whether he/she wins or not – especially since the dogs don’t run simultaneously – they run one at a time. It seems more likely that it is the owners who get a buzz out of the competition aspect of the sport.

 

So let’s be clear here. If you (and this is a rhetorical you, NOT aimed at any one person,) feel that you must attend events sponsored by the AKC in order to do agility, then what you are really saying is that you have to attend AKC events in order to get the bang of competing. It isn’t about the dog – it’s about you.

 

If you choose to do competition agility in AKC events, you are sending a message to everyone present that you condone the policies of the people who brought you the Barbie collie, the crippled GSD, the breathing-challenged Pug, etc. (Your entry fee also goes to promote and perpetuate these practices.) It doesn’t matter how you actually feel about the dog fancy and the breeding practices thereof. Your appearance at the event will be seen as a tacit acceptance of the AKC mindset.

 

It would seem to me that if running the agility course with your dog is most important to you because of the teamwork with the animal and your mutual enjoyment of the activity, then there is no reason to attend any competition that is put on by any group whose basic philosophy you disagree with.

 

Surely a group of like-minded enthusiasts for the sport of agility can find a way to meet on their own and have a great time running courses with their dogs.

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I don't get the analogy. Buying a formal dress, applying makeup, getting your hair done, and setting up a date and a limo are nothing like attending a party. They are totally different activities. Unless you like shopping and getting your hair done and applying makeup and making appointments, you'd never do any of those things unless they were a preparation for something else. But training for agility and running an agility course is a lot like "doing agility." Are you saying that none of the training or running a course to a high standard is enjoyable and rewarding in itself -- that the only point of doing it is so you can compete in a trial?

 

 

:rolleyes:

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I agree with you on the GSD AKC standard. Poor dos!

 

But I take offense with "Bred for Schutzhund". You must not know what GSD's are still used for in Germany? - Tending

 

I actually did know that, and I just wasn't thinking about it. Probably because my mom has a Schutzhund-bred GSD. Much more sound and less neurotic than the conformation one she had previously. Regardless, it's the same thing. Both purposes produce better dogs than the crippled conformation ones.

 

And, she didn't go with a Schutzhund-bred one to do Schutzhund, she did it because she wanted a good pet. I told her that's the route she should go with finding a puppy, and while she didn't listen to me, she did listen to her vet when the vet said the exact same thing.

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I cant expect anybody to understand anything about agility or flyball for that matter if you have never done it . Whether you choose to do or not , I dont care . Alot of people can stand on a soap box and preach whatever they like .

Maybe they cant to do any sports or any other activities with their dog due to money or physical needs , but that doenst make it right for them to bash anybody elses choice.

Its amazing how many people tuned into this thread. :rolleyes:

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"I have a complete set of equipment , both AKC , some UKC stuff too. Old , new , used. And please , running matches in no way takes the place of a real trial atmosphere . If you have a dog like I do , a rescue , with issues you can only dream up , having her take that first step in a real trial ring is a feeling like no other . And to have that same dog run a course and have fun , with all the noises and emotions gone wild , you would understand."

 

Good for you for working so hard on a rescue dog with issues. That's an accomplishment to be proud of!

 

"She knows its a competition and gets very excited. She knows when its a match and we can play around. Dont tell me you dont think the BC can tell the difference ?"

I think that you are the best judge of whether your dog perceives a difference.

 

"...but it sure feels great knowing all your hard work has changed tyhis frightened BC into a secure , confidnet dog I knew she could be. "

But you could see that improvement on a walk through a train station too, right?"

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I actually did know that, and I just wasn't thinking about it. Probably because my mom has a Schutzhund-bred GSD. Much more sound and less neurotic than the conformation one she had previously. Regardless, it's the same thing. Both purposes produce better dogs than the crippled conformation ones.

 

And, she didn't go with a Schutzhund-bred one to do Schutzhund, she did it because she wanted a good pet. I told her that's the route she should go with finding a puppy, and while she didn't listen to me, she did listen to her vet when the vet said the exact same thing.

 

 

Im just curious , what do you consider a Shutzhund bred dog ?

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"I have a complete set of equipment , both AKC , some UKC stuff too. Old , new , used. And please , running matches in no way takes the place of a real trial atmosphere . If you have a dog like I do , a rescue , with issues you can only dream up , having her take that first step in a real trial ring is a feeling like no other . And to have that same dog run a course and have fun , with all the noises and emotions gone wild , you would understand."

 

Good for you for working so hard on a rescue dog with issues. That's an accomplishment to be proud of!

 

"She knows its a competition and gets very excited. She knows when its a match and we can play around. Dont tell me you dont think the BC can tell the difference ?"

I think that you are the best judge of whether your dog perceives a difference.

 

"...but it sure feels great knowing all your hard work has changed tyhis frightened BC into a secure , confidnet dog I knew she could be. "

But you could see that improvement on a walk through a train station too, right?"

 

Well , I cant argue with you on this one. I know you cant do any agility or any other sport because of your unfortunate physical problem , but you arent the one to preach about it either then. :rolleyes:

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I cant expect anybody to understand anything about agility or flyball for that matter if you have never done it . Whether you choose to do or not , I dont care . Alot of people can stand on a soap box and preach whatever they like .

Maybe they cant to do any sports or any other activities with their dog due to money or physical needs , but that doenst make it right for them to bash anybody elses choice.

Its amazing how many people tuned into this thread. :rolleyes:

 

I don't see where anyone bashed anyone's choice to do any sport with their dogs. They are saying do not breed for sport, breed for stock working ability to maintain the BC in its truest form. So the dogs do not become something else like the show dogs do. AKC dogs. Therefore if one gives money to AKC to run agility or such then one is supporting that in an indirect fashion.

 

I think that is all anyone was bashing :D

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