Crufts

[geonni banner]

Boy! This thread is a rip-snorter!

 

I thought about the competition mind-set vis-a-vis stockdog trials too. The conclusion that I came to is that stockdog trials showcase talent of working dogs (and their handlers) in a way that helps to improve the breed by offering potential breeding choices to those attending, or following the results in some other way.

The breed ring set claims that conformation showing does the same thing for their dogs too - but we have seen that this is only lip-service, as dog breeds and types that become fashionable in the breed ring nearly always deteriorate as a result.

 

Ipsy, Please don't feel that I'm trying to "bash" you. I'm not. (Mostly I don't think anyone else is either) I come to these Boards for information, help, stimulation, and entertainment. The experience has made me change a lot of my closely-held beliefs, and I think that's a good thing. I think that everyone here has a common desire - to do the best we can for our dogs and each other. I've gotten my share of bruised feelings in the process, but when I came back for the next session, all those same people were right there and ready for sane and helpful dialog. Feelings run high - but so are the stakes - the survival of this breed as the pre-imminent working stockdog in the world.

[njnovice]

I cant expect anybody to understand anything about agility or flyball for that matter if you have never done it . Whether you choose to do or not , I dont care . Alot of people can stand on a soap box and preach whatever they like .

Maybe they cant to do any sports or any other activities with their dog due to money or physical needs , but that doenst make it right for them to bash anybody elses choice.

Its amazing how many people tuned into this thread.

 

I don't think anybody is bashing anybody for doing agility or flyball. I just think that people are explaining why it's bad for the breed to breed Border Collies solely for that purpose.

 

I mean, I've done lessons and worked Mick on sheep. He loves it. It's what he's meant for. I hope that one day, I can afford to start it up with him again. I've also done informal agility with Mick. He enjoys it. I just never really felt the need to pursue it. We just work on it a little bit at the dog park sometimes.

[njnovice]

Im just curious , what do you consider a Shutzhund bred dog ?

 

Well, the German Shepherd that my mother has comes from lines bred for Schutzhund and protection work. None of the dogs are conformation champions, but they all have titled Schutzhund three and are German imports. Many of the breeder's dogs go onto Schutzhund homes or are sold to police departments. The puppies with less drive he sells as pet quality.

 

I would consider that a Schutzhund-bred dog. If you look at her, she doesn't have the crippled legs of a conformation bred dog. She does have a lot of power, and it's beautiful to watch her run, unlike the crippled German Shepherds you usually see. Personality-wise, she's incredible. Very well-adjusted and friendly, but not a dog I would want to break into the house with, because she does have a VERY strong protective streak.

[njnovice]

oh oh , I just remembered ! My Sally is from stocklines ! Does that change anything ?

 

That's good, it still doesn't make her suitable to breed unless she's proven to be a very good stockdog, though.

[stockdogranch]

I'll leave the major portion of this discussion to others who are doing an admirable job. I just want to address the idea of competing being so "necessary" for whatever reasons. Daisyandme pointed out that stockdog trials might be compared to agility trials, competition-wise. The same thought went through my head when I was reading about the "necessity" of going to a trial as opposed to just "doing agility" in one's back yard or with friends or whatever.

 

I raise and train stockdogs, cowdogs in particular. For me, the biggest thrill is in training the young pups--watching them discover their power and presence, figuring out what it is that I'm asking them to do and then doing it, progressing every time we go out to work. So for me, the work is not only the only standard for the dog's "breed-worthiness" for lack of a better term, but the work is also the reason to do what I do.

 

But, I also compete at some cattle trials. Why? For a number of reasons: I like to win money; I like socializing with other like-minded people; just seeing what my dogs can do in different settings on different stock is always an eye-opener (everyone's dog is always *great* at home--but elsewhere is often a different story); it also reinforces the "breed-worthiness" of my dogs--I can see how they stack up against other dogs, and so can have a reasonably objective perspective on if my dogs are really as good as I believe them to be, or if I am merely delusional; and, finally, as a practical matter--I make a portion of my income from training and selling dogs, and from giving lessons. If I am not out there trialling, then noone knows who I am, or what kind of dogs I raise and train, and then I have no business. So I need to be out there for that reason. The rest? It's not a *need,* it's a *want.*

A

[Ooky]

IPSY,

 

Maybe a better way to understand people's objections to your initial statement (essentially, what would be bad about breeding 2 great agility dogs if they were all going to agility homes anyway?) would be to take a step back for a moment.

 

I agree with you that in general with dog breeds, it is better to breed for a function than for looks. For example, if Cav spaniels were bred for agility, they'd probably be a lot better off than they are now. Why is this different in the border collie, then?

 

Well, because they are already bred for a function. While the function is specific, it requires a multitude of traits that all help a dog to have a good chance of being an agility master.

 

What would you breed for when you breed two agility dogs? Speed? Biddability? Jumping ability and general joint health/longevity? Focus? Drive? "Work ethic"? Some of these traits are also influenced by nurture and training, but you get the idea. I posit there is not one trait you can name that would not already be selected for in a good stockdog.

 

However, breeding two great agility dogs who are unproven on stock are not likely to make a great stockdog, because these and a million other traits that cannot be evaluated anywhere but ON stock all have to be in balance. On top of that, as I'm sure you agree, border collies have some very intense traits that are very EASY to get out of balance when not taking the whole picture into account. Breeding two dogs for great speed and drive can easily lead to a litter (or a line, if you are thinking that far) that are, for lack of a better term, maniacs. Poor pet dogs, unable to relax. PEople here who are familiar with the breed see it all the time!

 

The agility homes "you" would sell to may continue to breed for such reasons. And worse, they may decide to cross back over into the working gene pool, diluting that pool which is necessary to maintain these dogs as being WHAT THEY ARE. This could be to be able to boast you have "working lines", or because your breeding stock is getting a bit "crazy" and needs an interjection of something in balance again.

 

Also, since "you" are breeding for some of (but not all of) the same intense traits that make a good stockdog, they will still kind of *look* like stockdogs, at least compared to show collies (barbie collies). It is often impossible to tell a sport collie from a working-bred collie on looks alone, and since agility breeders often want to breed back to working lines and/or be able to advertise that they have working lines, there is a poor distinction between these two types that threatens the working collie immensely. More people probably want to do sports rather than stockwork with their dogs in this country, after all.

 

So strangely, in this respect, breeding for looks is actually less harmful for working collies, because it is easier to see these as simply a new breed of dog (if you know anything), and to keep the lines separate.

 

Finally, breeding for stockwork is a very difficult, nuanced undertaking. Even seemingly great crosses need to be vetted by evaluating offspring (which can only happen on stock). Non-working homes are actually good for the breed. This allows working breeders to breed more litters and hopefully be able to evaluate the offspring in some of the homes (if not all go to working homes), giving them more chances to work on the art of breeding great stockdogs. Does this make any more sense? (Also, others feel free to correct me or clarify!)

[geonni banner]

Yaaaaaaaaay! What Ooky said!

[flyer]

IPSY,

 

So strangely, in this respect, breeding for looks is actually less harmful for working collies, because it is easier to see these as simply a new breed of dog (if you know anything), and to keep the lines separate.

 

Ooky great post, but is this really true? I would think not.

[njnovice]

Ooky great post, but is this really true? I would think not.

 

LOL, especially considering the number of us who have had people call our working bred dogs any sort of random breed.

 

Mine usually gets, "oh, is that a cattle dog?" or "what's he's a mix of?" Once somebody asked if he was a pit bull. That was a true WTF moment. I have a pit bull. I can assure you, my Border Collie looks nothing like my pit bull.

[geonni banner]

Ooky great post, but is this really true? I would think not.

 

Well, maybe not better, but easier to detect as a flaw... as in,"Oh! A Tuxedo Retriever! Keep him away from my working bitch!"

[Ooky]

Well, yeah, because for one thing the show collie people don't typically want working-bred dogs injected back into their lines as much as sport people do - they have a very specific look going on that in most cases, a working-bred dog is not going to "improve" on, in their opinion.

 

To clarify, I don't mean that breeding for looks is better for the individual dogs, but less damaging to the BC breed. The show look is definitive, separate, and well-established. The gene pools do not overlap to nearly the degree that the sport and working lines can. In a lot of ways, you could basically consider them a separate breed already, which is MUCH harder to do and recognize with the sport collies.

 

ETA, BYB are a whole 'nother story but I am talking about *purposeful* breeding for specific goals here.

[Root Beer]

I don't get the analogy. Buying a formal dress, applying makeup, getting your hair done, and setting up a date and a limo are nothing like attending a party. They are totally different activities. Unless you like shopping and getting your hair done and applying makeup and making appointments, you'd never do any of those things unless they were a preparation for something else.

 

Exactly! It's an analogy - it's not perfect. The point is simply that those are out of the ordinary (for most people, anyway!) preparations for something unique and special.

 

For those of us who compete in dog sports, competitions are something unique and special.

 

Not perfect, but it's definitely a parallel that I can personally relate to.

 

But training for agility and running an agility course is a lot like "doing agility."

 

Weeeeeell, some of it is and some of it isn't. We do a lot of training and preparation that is not really like "doing agility" in it's final form.

 

I train for Agility at home on a regular basis. What I do here is almost nothing like what we do on Agility courses. It's pieces that in and of themselves are not Agility. For instance, I might work on turning Maddie away from me on cue to help her with a rear cross. I might use a post or a chair instead of a jump.

 

Yes, there is a similarity, but I am never going to turn Maddie away from me around a chair or post in an Agility course.

 

So, the parallel does hold.

 

Granted, there is quite a lot of preparation that is "doing Agility", but we do much, much more.

 

Are you saying that none of the training or running a course to a high standard is enjoyable and rewarding in itself -- that the only point of doing it is so you can compete in a trial?

 

Of course not. I am saying that some of us find that there is something very unique and special about competition. As much as we enjoy running courses in class, at run thru's, etc., those things are not the same thing as a trial.

 

If the group that I train with never got together to train together, I would really miss something that I enjoy very much. If I could never trial, I would also miss something very miuch. Neither is exactly the same as the other. Both, along with the time that I enjoy training alone with my dog (and I do enjoy that, as well), are aspects of the sport that I value and appreciate for what they are.

 

How about this? It would be like belonging to a baseball team and never actually playing a game against another team. As much as you might enjoy practices and scrimages against your team mates, something very important would be missing if you never played anyone else.

 

Some people would be fine with that, but many would find something distinctly lacking.

[Root Beer]

But you could see that improvement on a walk through a train station too, right?"

 

Sure. And for those who really enjoy walking through train stations, that might be a wonderful thing to share with one's dog.

 

Some of us find dog sport competitions to be one of the most enjoyable things that we do with our Border Collies. There is nothing else that is exactly the same.

 

It's not for everyone. I certainly don't think it should be a particular interest of yours if it is not. But for those of us who enjoy it, there is no substitute. Practice in the yard, social Agility practice with friends, etc. - it is simply not the same thing. Those things are great, but there is a difference.

 

And yes, the dogs know the difference. That's often much more apparent when a dog struggles with some aspect of the competition environment, but if you look closely, it is very apparent in dogs who thrive in the competition environment.

[AmandaMJL]

Anyway, on to my thought...(with no intent to continue to fuel the fire)

I can understand your point about agility in the AKC arena geonni banner, but I have to wonder at the same time how are sheepdog trials any different in terms of the need for competition on the humans part. I really think both types of competitions have to do with the ego more than anything else. I think one could argue positively that with sheepdog trials:

1) They allow the dog do what it was meant to do.

2) They allows the breed to remain strong because through competition and exposure, the best of the best could in theory be bred, thus possibly producing stronger dogs.

 

OK that is my thought, please don't flame me, I am still learning.....

 

daisyandme - I have the same thought, so I'll bring the marshmallows for the flames!

 

Not at all trying to start a riot, just would like to hear more responses to this opinion.

[SS Cressa]

Every time you do that someone will not be able to breed two good working dogs because you have already used up the homes for the puppies.

 

I really shouldn't get into this. But that is the same type of logic PETA use. Every time you buy from a breeder you kill a shelter dog. It illogical thinking. What makes you think that the person would have gone to a working breeder if she didn't "breed" her sport collies?

 

You being the generic version of you and not necessary the person I am quoting.

[AmandaMJL]

And yes, the dogs know the difference. That's often much more apparent when a dog struggles with some aspect of the competition environment, but if you look closely, it is very apparent in dogs who thrive in the competition environment.

 

Whoa boy do they EVER! They feel it from the barking, from us, from so many different things. It's very very different.

[juliepoudrier]

daisyandme - I have the same thought, so I'll bring the marshmallows for the flames!

 

Not at all trying to start a riot, just would like to hear more responses to this opinion.

As someone who trials at stockdog trials, I will say that as Daisyandme noted, there are some positive outcomes beyond the human ego thing (seeing dogs handle livestock not their own, on unfamiliar terrain, under pressure, etc., can tell you a lot about the dogs). But I also think there's a huge ego thing involved as well. There are handlers who won't go to a trial if there isn't payback (the chance to win money). There are handlers who are poor sports when their dogs don't do well. And so on. The same as with any sport. Likewise, trials are a chance to hang out with like-minded people. To talk about the things that are important to us (namely dogs and livestock). I can go to some trials and talk to people I might not see anywhere else. Case in point: when I was unsuccessful in getting pup from my open dog Kat, I was able to discuss the possibility of finding a similarly bred dog in person at a trial with the man who had bred both of Kat's parents. Sure that conversation could have taken place via e-mail, but the interesting thing was that the other folks sitting around us also joined in and I gained a good deal of information about those particular bloodlines from folks who were familiar with them.

 

So the short answer is yes, stockdog trialing can be like any other sport. But unlike other sports, stockdog trialing does give people the opportunity to prove that their dogs are excellent at what they were meant to do (i.e, breedworthy), to see other dogs from different bloodlines and with different handlers in order to evaluate the suitability of such dogs for themselves or their breeding program, and to talk livestock. Trials were developed as a means to showcase the work of the dogs, and trialing helps to prevent some aspects of "kennel blindness." But in the end, it is another sport.

 

J.

[AmandaMJL]

I think that is a fair way to think of it, in regards to Julie's post.

 

Maybe I'm in the wrong sport, I've yet to make any money at flyball competitions LOL

[Maralynn]

I really shouldn't get into this. But that is the same type of logic PETA use. Every time you buy from a breeder you kill a shelter dog. It illogical thinking. What makes you think that the person would have gone to a working breeder if she didn't "breed" her sport collies?

 

You being the generic version of you and not necessary the person I am quoting.

 

Huh? It is different on so many levels. We're talking about breeding purpose bred dogs and preserving a set of genetics. What is illogical about that?

[Eileen Stein]

I am saying that some of us find that there is something very unique and special about competition. As much as we enjoy running courses in class, at run thru's, etc., those things are not the same thing as a trial.

 

If the group that I train with never got together to train together, I would really miss something that I enjoy very much. If I could never trial, I would also miss something very miuch. Neither is exactly the same as the other. Both, along with the time that I enjoy training alone with my dog (and I do enjoy that, as well), are aspects of the sport that I value and appreciate for what they are.

 

Sure, I understand that. You wouldn't trial if you didn't enjoy it. What I'm getting at is the extent of what you would be giving up if you didn't trial.

 

In your analogy, if you had to give up going to the party, the preparations for it (buying the dress, putting on makeup, renting the limo) would be pointless. They have NO value in themselves. But training, and running agility courses at home, with your friends, or at a match are not pointless. They are a pretty large part of the experience of "doing agility" (and for the dog they are a very, very high percentage of the agility experience), whereas the party preparations are at most 1% of the party experience.

 

I think this matters when people are saying that they couldn't possibly give up AKC agility trials, because they are making it sound as if they and their dog would be deprived of ALL the benefits of agility if they did, and that is simply not true. The sacrifice one would be making by not going to AKC trials (or lots of trials) is simply not of the same magnitude as the sacrifice of giving up all trials, or giving up doing agility altogether. And to my mind that bears on how lame the excuse is.

[BCkris]

There was a eukanuba dog show on the animal planet on last night and I just happened to flip to it has the 'herding' class was being presented. As a victim to my own curiosity I decided to watch to see what kind of barbies they paraded around the ring. Sure enough, just after the German Shepherd with his dwarfed back legs, the border collie was presented. What was especially disturbing was that the commentators ranted on about how perfect his markings were and how his broad chest would help him in the field. He also described the show ring as the dog's 'job' and how the dog was 'working' every time he stepped into the ring. I guess my dreams of my '30 lb not-flashy-at-all narrow-chested' Harper winning the Westminster are shot. Darn. I'll just have to do something productive with her.

Thats so funny because i was thinking the same thing when i saw that too!

 

This whole thing on breeding.... as an RVT i see so many dogs come in who have been bred so badly it makes me cringe. On top of that these new pet owners want to breed that dog so they can make money. everytime i hear that i just want to ring their necks and tell them DONT YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING TO THIS BREED! not only that but all the poor dogs who suffer with genetic problems! i can see how so many people are very protective of the border collie breed because they are just outstanding dogs! i do not intend to breed my BC but i do express my gratitude for all those who have fought and have stuck to the ethics of true breeding! because without that i would have never received such a wonderful BC.

On the other hand as a regular person in society i do enjoy watching obedience, agility, flyball etc because i truly admire the connection between dog and handler and as long some of these "shows" (crufts) are around i think the bond continues to grow because some handlers strive to achieve a higher goal (not that this makes them better then the next handler). from my understanding if you have a BC i was always told they need something to do.... if you dont live near a farm or own a farm and us city people truly appreciate the breed sometimes obedience,agility etc is all we can do.

[Root Beer]

I think this matters when people are saying that they couldn't possibly give up AKC agility trials, because they are making it sound as if they and their dog would be deprived of ALL the benefits of agility if they did, and that is simply not true. The sacrifice one would be making by not going to AKC trials (or lots of trials) is simply not of the same magnitude as the sacrifice of giving up all trials, or giving up doing agility altogether. And to my mind that bears on how lame the excuse is.

 

No, one does not have to give up ALL the benefits of Agility to give up doing AKC Agility. Still, to give up trialing altogether - for someone who has a keen interest in trailing in Agility - is a very big thing. It would create a void that participating in social matches or just taking classes or setting up courses in the yard would not fill.

 

I would suggest that people in these areas where AKC is the only game in town get together with other Agility enthusiasts and see about bringing other Agility venues to the area. I know this might seem nearly impossible, but it really is something that is worth at least seriously looking into. Yes, there are costs, but run thru's and fun matches can be held to raise money to bring a new venue to the area. It can be done.

 

While it is true that it takes time for a new venue to take hold in a new area, it won't happen unless somebody gets the ball rolling.

 

I live in an area where we have many options. We have CPE, NADAC, USDAA (not much, but some), UKC, and AKC Agility available in the area. Teacup seems to be taking hold here, too, but that obviously isn't an option for Border Collies. There is DOCNA not too far away. We have APDT, UKC, and AKC Rally. And we have AKC, UKC, and Saint Hubert's Obedience in the area. Those are just the things that I know of. There is flyball of some sort, and there is a little WCFO Freestyle.

 

My point isn't to brag about having a lot of options. It is to make this point - the more options there are, the more people participate. The more people participate, the more there is a demand for opportunities to compete and then more opportunities are made available. When I started competing in CPE a few years ago, there was one trial in my area twice a year. Now I can get to one a month if I want to. In that short time, it has taken hold and grown in popularity - because somebody got it going.

 

So, if AKC is the only game in town, why not try to bring in some competition for them? If you build it . . . well, you know!

 

Just a suggestion. One, I think, that would appeal to me much more as an avid dog sport competitor than, "just get together and do Agility for fun."

[daisyandme]

Thats so funny because i was thinking the same thing when i saw that too!

 

This whole thing on breeding.... as an RVT i see so many dogs come in who have been bred so badly it makes me cringe. On top of that these new pet owners want to breed that dog so they can make money. everytime i hear that i just want to ring their necks and tell them DONT YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING TO THIS BREED! not only that but all the poor dogs who suffer with genetic problems! i can see how so many people are very protective of the border collie breed because they are just outstanding dogs! i do not intend to breed my BC but i do express my gratitude for all those who have fought and have stuck to the ethics of true breeding! because without that i would have never received such a wonderful BC.

On the other hand as a regular person in society i do enjoy watching obedience, agility, flyball etc because i truly admire the connection between dog and handler and as long some of these "shows" (crufts) are around i think the bond continues to grow because some handlers strive to achieve a higher goal (not that this makes them better then the next handler). from my understanding if you have a BC i was always told they need something to do.... if you dont live near a farm or own a farm and us city people truly appreciate the breed sometimes obedience,agility etc is all we can do.

 

Julie, thanks so much for the great explanation of your experiences at stockdog trials!

 

Just out of curiosity and again I am new to all of this...how does one know if they have a BC that was bred for conformation or not. For example like Daisy, if you have a rescue where the background is unknown.

 

I did watch some of the eukanuba dog show and when they got to the border collie, I had to do a double take and then looked at Daisy and said to her, that doesn't look like you (even though she is 7 months old and still has some more maturing to do)!

[Eileen Stein]

I would suggest that people in these areas where AKC is the only game in town get together with other Agility enthusiasts and see about bringing other Agility venues to the area. I know this might seem nearly impossible, but it really is something that is worth at least seriously looking into. Yes, there are costs, but run thru's and fun matches can be held to raise money to bring a new venue to the area. It can be done.

 

While it is true that it takes time for a new venue to take hold in a new area, it won't happen unless somebody gets the ball rolling.

 

I think this would be a great thing to do.

[herdcentral]

Well I live in a state in Australia where ANKC agility, obedience etc is the only game in town. The trialing community is a very small one. There is another venue in the Eastern states and last year they flew in to the west the whole thing including the judges for a couple of trials, but it would be impossible on a really regular basis. You would have to fly east if you want to compete on this circuit regularly.

 

So if you want to compete there is no choice. I live on an isolated farm and I train by myself. I really enjoy going in to the city for a few trials and the dogs also love it too. I get to watch the experienced handlers and occasionally do a nice clear round myself. The whole experience has been great for me and strengthened my relationships with my dogs and also provides a break from the isolation. I dont agree with the whole breeding for looks but I also love to trial with my dogs and have no intention of giving it up, it is most definitely different from training on my own for both me and the dogs.

 

Many of the dogs that compete are rescue dogs and working bred dogs and the trials are definitely not dominated by showbred dogs, all are welcomed and encouraged.

 

However, due to the influence of the board my latest pup is a very nicely bred working dog and I have every intention of training him as my sheep dog and maybe one day trialing him as one.

 

But for my non working bred dogs, competition agility and obedience are something I can really enjoy with them.