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Many of you know my youngest dog Dave from my posts. Dave appears to be fearful. He jumps at people, other dogs and anything that moves. I have been working on this with your best advice for a long time. We have made some progress and we have taken a few steps back. I have never had a dog with this problem before so solving it is new to me. BUT, this afternoon Dave took a step backward that could end up in him being put down. I was walking all three of my dogs when an elderly gentleman approached. He asked if he could pet them. They were all waging their tails and looking for attention including Dave. The dogs were fine BUT all of a sudden Dave started barking and jumping at the guy. He could not get out of the way fast enough and I could not get Dave fast enough and he bit the man on the arm. He did not draw blood but he hurt the guy. I gave the man my card and sure enough he called animal control. I got a call from animal control. They know me and they know my dogs. They let me off the hook. They could have taken Dave and had him put down but they also warned me that if they hear about another situation with Dave they will be forced to take him. This could very well put an end to my public work with the dogs, we shall see. I don't even know if I should consider Dave to be a hard case. I would love to bring him around, I would love to save him but what I am doing is not working in this case. I am approaching a choice. I can kennel Dave for the rest of his days or put him down. I would find it hard to put him down, I love the little guy and I owe him my expertise and anything I can do to help him BUT frankly folks I must admit as of today I am at a loss with Dave on this one. His training is fine and I can handle that but this jumping and biting thing is beyond me, I have failed. Can you help. Is there a hard and fast track I can put Dave on to get him out of this mess. In my community there is a great shortage of expert help from qualified people. Thanks.

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I would stop walking him with the group. I would walk him so you can concentrate on him and his needs/training. Put him on a muzzle when in public. If he is not wearing one and even if he is NEVER let anyone come up to him to petted even if he seems willing. You need to work on the issues in a safe way and having the other dogs around and no muzzle is asking for trouble unfortunately.

 

You really should find a vet behaviorist who can help you learn what you should do and not do. What his threshold is and where to stop? All that type of stuff. Maybe he should be on meds to help him to learn to deal. Do you really know for sure he is fear aggressive? He may not be and that could be why you are having problems getting through.

 

It sucks when you have reactive dogs and luckily I do not have one but I know a few folks that do.

 

Also, your public work with the dogs does NOT have to include Dave. You may be setting him up for failure when you take him places when he is not comfortable. Take a few steps back in training and work up to being with people slowly.

 

Good luck though

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I would stop walking him with the group. I would walk him so you can concentrate on him and his needs/training. Put him on a muzzle when in public. If he is not wearing one and even if he is NEVER let anyone come up to him to petted even if he seems willing. You need to work on the issues in a safe way and having the other dogs around and no muzzle is asking for trouble unfortunately.

 

You really should find a vet behaviorist who can help you learn what you should do and not do. What his threshold is and where to stop? All that type of stuff. Maybe he should be on meds to help him to learn to deal. Do you really know for sure he is fear aggressive? He may not be and that could be why you are having problems getting through.

 

It sucks when you have reactive dogs and luckily I do not have one but I know a few folks that do.

 

Also, your public work with the dogs does NOT have to include Dave. You may be setting him up for failure when you take him places when he is not comfortable. Take a few steps back in training and work up to being with people slowly.

 

Good luck though

 

Second this.

 

One, don't let people pet Dave. If his tail was wagging and he was happy before hand (not showing any fear signals), then he may be ok with being out in public, though he obviously is NOT ready for strangers to pet him. He probably thought he was because the other dogs clearly were, but when the situation occurred he was like OH CRAP NO. If you think Dave likes going out, take him out by himself and watch him closely for any fear signals to ensure that you are right.

 

Two, not sure what your "public work with the dogs" entails, but if he is going to be walking through crowds etc he probably needs a muzzle. The sooner you get him started on a muzzle the better, you can desensitize first at home and then ease up into taking him out in one. My veterinary behaviorist recommends a long wear greyhound muzzle. Desensitization to muzzles can be tricky depending on the dog. It involves teaching them the muzzle is not bad by rewarding them for having it on. My dog hates confinement so it's been really tricky to teach her to wear the greyhound one (she has an old mesh one for short wear that she will wear just fine for the vet to handle her and so on). One thing about having a dog with a muzzle out in public is people don't bother it. They figure there's a reason for it and just kinda walk on by...

 

I'd also recommend you take Dave to a board-certified veterinary behaviorist (BCVB) or consult with a vet who has experience with reactive dogs. I'm like you, I live in an area where there were none (my local vet told me we should put her to sleep), so I had to drive to Houston to see one. If you go to my profile page there will be tons of resources on reactive dogs. That's what all my posts are about. My dog was so bad at one point she was even biting us. But thankfully we know her signals and have good management in place now, with the help of our BCVB so she both can't and doesn't try. Also she is on a low dose of fluoxetine (prozac) that only costs me $4 a month. . . There are things you can do even for a dog like Pan (who has sound reactivity, fear aggression, redirected aggression, and resource guarding to humans)! Hopefully Dave isn't as bad off.

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Kim gave you excellent advice. Muzzle for right now, walk him only by himself, etc. There is no hard and fast fix for Dave.

 

Cornell University has a long distance behaviorist service as part of their veterinary school. You fill out a really detailed questionnaire, and they work with you via fax/email, as well as suggesting medications. I know you are geographically far away from anyone qualified, but you could start there.

 

And, I believe there is a middle ground between kenneling Dave for life and taking him with you all the time. Get the muzzle, get him acclimated to it, teach him to see it as a good thing, and start working with him solo. Yes, his life will change dramatically, probably for the better if he's so easily triggered. Yes, it will take more work on your part. But I think that you can give him this chance. He can't take the life you're asking him to live without really losing it. Stop asking that of him. Scale way, way back on what you expect. And get a muzzle.

 

I know this is very very hard and you have all our good thoughts and best prayers for you and Dave. And try not to beat yourself up - none of us knows how to do everything. If we did, we wouldn't need our friends.

 

Ruth

 

ETA - I meant Tufts, thanks Liz!

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Walk Dave alone, don't let people pet him no matter how calm he seems and use a muzzle. The muzzle will be a clear signal to people to not come closer. Count yourself as lucky to have a second chance with him and don't take that for granted. Do everything in your power to prevent a second bite, even if it seems like overkill.

 

Tufts also has a remote consultation service.

 

http://www.tufts.edu/vet/behavior/vetfax.shtml

 

http://www.tufts.edu/vet/petfax/

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Don't make any decisions while you are upset. Things won't look so bleak once you can get calmed down. You have options.

 

Shoot I lived for years with two absolutely impossible dogs. Molly was the biter and I simply let her live at home. She did all right there most of the time. Bandit was a big, obnoxious bully. He stayed home a lot, too. It was never worth the risk of having one of the dogs bite someone but I never even considered putting them down. We just coped. And we did pretty good.

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The gentleman who approached Dave may have done something through his body language that set Dave off. Most people don't know how to approach a dog. It should never be from the front making eye contact and standing over the dog with hand coming down to the head. Dogs should be approached from the side avoiding a lot of eye contact. The hand should come from hand under the chin and to the chest.

 

Dave himself should be distracted when being approached by strangers and other dogs. The best way is with a series of pea sized treats and a soothing voice to let him know that it's OK and that we have visitors. Frankly I don't like people fawiing over y dogs so I try to discourage petting. Unless your a pretty girl that is.

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After two years of hard work, my Lili is still slightly fear-aggressive albeit a lot less than when rescued. What has happened during those two years? She has trained me! She finally got me to understand that some situations bother her greatly and will for the rest of her life, that she really wants me to be the guy who will be responsible enough to avoid putting her in such situations, and if by accident, such situations become unavoidable, to know how to manage them. The long and short of my two years with Lili is that I now understand that I’m the one causing the problem, not she. After two years worth of bonding, I should know that reading her (tail wagging, etc) in such situations is not an option: Lili says: “whenever people approach, keep me on a very short leash. Please!” I only have to listen… and then she is very proud of me.

 

john landry

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Also, your public work with the dogs does NOT have to include Dave. You may be setting him up for failure when you take him places when he is not comfortable. Take a few steps back in training and work up to being with people slowly.

 

I agree. I also second the veterinary behaviorist---helped my dog immensely.

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Here is someone who is in your neck of the woods - Kitchener. She was at the camp I attended this weekend and she specializes in fearful dogs. I can't vouch for her personally, but she is a certified Behaviour Therapist.

Her name is Carrie Cleghorn, B.Sc; CTB.css. Her website is www.K9FearBeGone.com

 

I also would try Guelph - the veterinary school probably has a behaviourist as well. Good luck....

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My oldest dog is fearful and reactive. She will willingly approach people and they think she's going to be fine and then just when the hand is about to touch her, or they have just touched her, she lunges and snaps at them. I think with her, she doesn't like feeling threatened at all and her comming up to someone and sniffing them is fine because its on her terms, but them doing any motions that go into her space or appear threatening (ie looming over her, hand comming from above, hand near her back end) brings her over the edge and she can't handle it. She's 15 now and not as bad as she was when she was younger, but she's still who she is and I just tell people who ask to pet her that she will snap at them if they try. It seems to work well for her because as long as they don't make eye contact with her and don't try to touch her, she's totally fine with them being around.

I was 14 when I got her and me, my sister and her friend with a BC used to go on walks through the trails to a strip mall and tie the dogs up outside a store while we went in. I knew Jetta wasn't great so I'd keep an eye out the window and one time I saw an older man walking by and the BC went to the end of her leash, wagging her tail wanting to be pet. He stopped to pat her and then reached for Jetta and she lunged and snapped at him. That day, I got a muzzle for her and whenever we went and tied her up there in the future, we'd put the muzzle on and people would go nowhere near her. She accepted it and wouldn't even try to get it off.

 

That story being said, I would never leave any of my dogs tied up outside a store unattended now. Too many risks (ie dog getting stolen or dog injuring another dog or person), but when you're a kid, you dont always think of that.

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I too have lived with a dog just like Dave and all the above advice is good.

 

I always walked this dog separately out in public so I could really focus on her body language and her training.

I never put her in situations that put her or other people in danger.

I never put her in situations that would put her over threshold

I did a lot of one on one training after having her assesed by a recommended behaviourist.

 

She took up an immense amount of training and management but it really paid off in the end. However even after the big improvements she made, management was always an ongoing consideration with her.

 

I wish I could say there is a simple answer, but often there isnt, but big improvements can be made and professional advice really helps this process. I found a great trainer who worked closely with a vet. I had to drive a long way but it was worth it.

 

A muzzle is also good but you need to recognise what triggers your dog and work on addressing those issues. Like you I also had a nipping incident but there was no harm done and fortunately the man was very good about it. It really got me into action about dealing with the situation.

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I have a reactive dog and absolutely agree with all the above posts.

 

Buddy has a threshold - once he crosses it, he reacts. Fortunately, his "reaction" to humans seems to be growling and trying to dart away, though I have little doubt that if he was really pushed, he'd resort to biting as an escape. So, I don't ever let him be "pushed."

 

One of the things that raises Buddy's stress close to threshold level is plain old commotion. The more that's going on at any given moment, the less he can monitor and control, and the more skittish he gets. Being near one dog he loves is fine. Being near one dog he doesn't know is stressful. Being near one dog he loves and one dog he doesn't know can push him over his limit - it seems to me it's the sheer unpredictability of the situation that makes it happen.

 

Your Dave was in the middle of a crowd of dogs, in the middle of a lot of people, and then someone leaned over him. Any one of those factors would make Buddy frightened, never mind all three at once.

 

As someone else said, my dog has trained me. I can now take him just about anywhere, but I am vigilant all the time. I never let him get backed into a closed, small space. I never let more than one child come at him. I always ask people to squat down if they're going to pat him, and only pat his chest because he doesn't like having his head patted. I never make him deal with crowds of strange dogs, or even single dogs that are obviously making him nervous. Perhaps most importantly, I always, always try to be sure that he has space.

 

I think Dave is a dog you can work with, but I don't think he's a dog you can work with the way you work with a "normal" dog. I absolutely agree that you should be alone with him when you work with him, if only for reducing commotion and therefore reducing his stress level.

 

I've had a few setbacks with Buddy - two times when he's snarked at other dogs and left a scratch or puncture wound that resulted in a vet bill for me. Both times, I felt horrible, but in the end I knew that Buddy hadn't suddenly become a "different" dog - I had just become aware that I hadn't yet mastered handling him. I had assumed he was farther along than he was, and set him up to fail by exposing him to things he wasn't ready for. (In one situation, I had sensed that he didn't feel well, yet kept pushing him to be social. Shame on me.)

 

Good luck. You have all my empathy!

 

Mary

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I think Kim summed it up well. With a dog like Dave, I'd rather err on the side of caution. When you have him out, you need to be hypervigilant. I've had dogs like that, not necessarily border collies, but I'd take them out by themselves and always be aware of who and what was around us. Even if their body language might be saying "pet me, pet me" -- don't take the risk.

 

You're lucky that animal control cut you some slack. It could have turned out a lot worse. Now you know that you have to rethink your routine.

 

Dave doesn't need to be euthanized or isolated. He just needs to be micromanaged.

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Fear aggression is very difficult to overcome. When Scotty came to us as a four year old rescue about to be euthanized, we knew that he was aggressive with strangers because he had been subjected to a shock collar when people came to the door. He'd actually been taken to a vet to be put down because the elderly owners couldn't control him. He was a very large Border Collie --nearly 60 pounds! -- and lived in suburb so he didn't have a chance to run....we fixed that :rolleyes: I didn't realize that he would nip at people (but not draw blood) that we met out on the street until he snapped at my niece a few days after we got him. We quickly learned that people couldn't approach him but that he would accept people on his terms -- We crated him before guests came and brought him out after people came into the house. When they completely ignored him, he soon became comfortable and after about six months was our "town greeter" happily going to the door and loving everyone This happy ending wasn't necessarily a matter of conditioning or retraining but his gradual awareness that he wasn't going to be punished every time someone came to the house as he really was a loving, happy dog who needed a great deal more exercise to help tone down his excitement rather than be punished for being friendly .

 

I took him many places but never let strange people on the street pet him. I explained that he was a rescue dog and not comfortable with strangers. I never had an incident on the street or in a store. In fact, I've never let people casually pet Ladybug - our other rescue - (she's afraid of strange women). She decides whether or not she'd like to have the contact and she's allowed to approach once she makes up her mind because she's never nipped. I know that it will be different with the pups...they are so friendly and I want them to be comfortable with strangers but dogs have a right to not be bothered or stressed if they have issues.

 

All that said, if I couldn't figure out the reasons and see some improvement, I'd be very said, but I wouldn't keep a habitual biter (especially one actually draws blood) -- too much of a risk in harming someone, particularly a child.

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I should add that even though I do not have a reactive dog (one that will lunge, bite etc... as first choice) I do have a fearful dog. Tempe is flight vs. fight. She will try to get away but with management and lately drugs I am seeing some improvement.

 

Even my flight dog can be pushed over her limit though and she was a month ago when she was at the vets. They took her to the back, she slipped the collar and tried to run, a vet tech tried to grab her and she tried to bite. Tempe has never tried to bite before and I was amazed. Now the vet tech who took her to the back she trusted just enough because he was able to call her back to him. She went to him willingly and he picked her up and brought her back to me. My vet's office was also extremely surprised by Tempe. Luckily, they did not mark her chart as being aggressive. She is marked as being fearful. We had to see a vet again this week and Tempe got to see her body vet tech and she was quite happy. After 2 months of drugs, Tempe actually was not completely freaked at the vets.

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They were all waging their tails and looking for attention including Dave.

 

Hi. I am sorry to hear about your incident. I did want to mention that a wagging tail is not always a sign of friendliness. There are different types of tail wags. The Doggone Safe website has a lot of good information. http://www.doggonesafe.com/

 

Be sure and read " Your dog may be trying to tell you something - are you listening?"

 

http://www.doggonesafe.com/dog%20communica...o%20Speak%20Dog

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My suggestion would be to leave Dave home for now. Pretend he's a new dog and start from scratch.

Do what is comfortable for him. That would not be taking him on walks where there are strangers. You might be able to work up to it but take it slow. Set small goals, like having him around when a visitor comes over but make sure that visitors understand they are to ingore Dave for now.

 

I have an 11 year old dog that was fearful, to the point of growling at strangers that would try and approach and attacking any dogs that got in her space bubble. She is happy to stay home, go for walks around the prop and other safe areas but I don't take her out in public, she's not comfortable with it. I don't feel guility for leaving her home, she is not isolated, only sheltered. She still gets her attention and she is no worse off for staying home than the ones that love people, enjoy attention from strangers and going places. It's the humans that think if one dog enjoys something then the other ones should too. That's just not always the case. Raven now enjoys visitors at her home but never did become comfortable with them outside her home and she really doesn't like strange dogs, except a few and for those I could never figure out what was different from the ones she doesn't like.

I swear her life is just as full as the other dogs and she is a happy girl.

 

Good luck and please don't give up on him. If that's all he's got for issues, you can figure out how to deal with them I'm sure.

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Lots of good advice here, especially finding a board certified veterinary behaviorist to guide you and very strict management. Until I had consulted with a vet. behaviorist, I'd keep Dave at home. If going in public is the only way to exercise him, I'd take him by himself and keep him muzzled. I don't know that I'd ever let a stranger try to pet him again -- ever -- because the stakes are just that high. I don't think this needs to be a death sentence for Dave. For one thing, he showed very good bite inhibition if he didn't break the skin. That is really important and even though I'd be horrified at my dog biting, I'd take a lot of comfort that it wasn't bad bite. You may need to provide a different lifestyle for him than you do for your other dogs but that doesn't mean he would need to be constantly kenneled. Good luck and please keep us updated!

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I went through this whole scene last night over and over again in my mind and something stood out I did not mention and I need to question if Dave is fear aggressive. I can understand why he would bark and lunge at bikes, roller bladers and just about anything else that moves quickly especially coming straight at him. I can understand him barking at other dogs. This situation happened yesterday without warning. Let me try to explain. When the man approached Dave, Dave was wagging his tail and his whole body. He does this with everyone. Sometimes he jumps up and sometimes he nips cloths etc. So, it appears Dave is happy for someone to approach and pet him although he may be a little enthusiastic. As my wife points out, it almost appears to be playful. He will even do it with her when he is excited. Other times Dave will get into defensive mode and bark at the person but he does this long before they get close enough to touch him. He will even do this with people he knows. I see this as aggression of some sort and there is nothing playful about it. However, yesterday in the case of the elderly gentleman Dave did both. He went from what appears to be playful mode to aggressive mode in a split second. I am going to keep Dave out of the public and I am going to attempt to find a Vet who has experience with behavior. I am going to do some one on one work with Dave and basically start him over again. What do you think I am seeing in Dave now that I have explained this. Thanks.

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I went through this whole scene last night over and over again in my mind and something stood out I did not mention and I need to question if Dave is fear aggressive. I can understand why he would bark and lunge at bikes, roller bladers and just about anything else that moves quickly especially coming straight at him. I can understand him barking at other dogs. This situation happened yesterday without warning. Let me try to explain. When the man approached Dave, Dave was wagging his tail and his whole body. He does this with everyone. Sometimes he jumps up and sometimes he nips cloths etc. So, it appears Dave is happy for someone to approach and pet him although he may be a little enthusiastic. As my wife points out, it almost appears to be playful. He will even do it with her when he is excited. Other times Dave will get into defensive mode and bark at the person but he does this long before they get close enough to touch him. He will even do this with people he knows. I see this as aggression of some sort and there is nothing playful about it. However, yesterday in the case of the elderly gentleman Dave did both. He went from what appears to be playful mode to aggressive mode in a split second. I am going to keep Dave out of the public and I am going to attempt to find a Vet who has experience with behavior. I am going to do some one on one work with Dave and basically start him over again. What do you think I am seeing in Dave now that I have explained this. Thanks.

 

 

Scotty too "suckered" my niece in by appearing friendly. He snapped at her hand when she stretched out to him. He didn't break the skin but never the less, a dog that snaps will eventually bite so it was alarming. In fact, on another day shortly thereafter, with another niece, who is not a "dog" person, but very observant, started walking up to him and halted immediately, saying, "Did you see the way his eyes changed?" In a split second he went from friendly to fearful all the while looking fairly relaxed and she was quick enough to recognize it. It was a valuable clue in figuring out that she was approaching that "zone" where the shock collar was used. If people stayed out of that zone, he was fine. We all have a personal comfort zone.

 

I would still vote for fear aggression...along with some serious behavioral issues - there's nothing playful about him nipping at people's clothes --it's one short step away from a bite. Border Collies who don't practice herding do go "nuts" about chasing wheels (that's how we lost Scotty - he would even chase a vacuum cleaner when he came to us....sadly, we hadn't made much progress on controlling this particular behavior and it cost us a beautiful dog). They also nip at people/objects that are moving around them in an unrealized effort to "herd" and control the people.

 

you are very right to seek a behaviorist to work out exactly what his issues are and then see if you can address them. Be very clear on the dog's history -- was he a rescue? Did he come to you as a pup? What was his previous situation? Is he neutered? If so when? How old is he? What his his daily routine? How does he react to different family members? It was suggested to me to keep a notebook on the dog's behavior....just at odd times throughout the day, look at him and write down what he's doing, how he's acting....

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