Ghost bit me.

[jdarling]

now the ball is in her court imo.

 

Ok ... Ghost is what? A year old, right? What if Ghost was 7 years old? Would you still feel the breeder has a duty to take the dog back? What about if he was 11? Still? Where's the cutoff? Or is a breeder responsible for every puppy they put on the ground every day those puppies are alive no matter what ever and ever amen?

[Lenajo]

Ok ... Ghost is what? A year old, right? What if Ghost was 7 years old? Would you still feel the breeder has a duty to take the dog back? What about if he was 11? Still? Where's the cutoff? Or is a breeder responsible for every puppy they put on the ground every day those puppies are alive no matter what ever and ever amen?

 

I am for mine. So are a lot of people. What you do is your business.

 

I will point out that when a breeder does decide to be responsible for *life* for what they produce; the first thing that changes is that they are a helluva lot more careful about what they breed, and who they sell too.

[katyh]

...I agree with a lot of what is said here, and its a sad situation, but I still think its irresponsible to make black and white recommendations (kill the dog) without any real experience with this GIRL and her dog. She needs help. The dog may need to be put down. I like the recommendation that Autumn and Ghost seek out an animal behaviorist. I could respect a decision that was made face to face with a full and professional evaluation. Can what is said on these boards be enough to make such a critical decision though?

[jdarling]

What you do is your business.

 

No, see, that's where the theory gets holes popped into it. Yes, it's your choice as to whether you are responsible for your pups forever. However, the minute a breeder refuses to take a dog back, judgments get made that it's a bad breeder and it's everyone's business all of a sudden. I disagree. I think a responsible breeder is breeding good proven working dogs, etc., but I don't think they need to be responsible for every pup they put on the ground for the rest of the dogs' lives come hell or high water. I, personally, am like you and will always take back any dog I sell, whether I bred it or not, etc. However, I do it because it's my choice. I don't do it because Joe Blow down the road will ruin my reputation if I don't. And I know plenty of people who are of the attitude, "I sold the dog for a reason, and not because I want it back," and I would still consider them reputable and would refer people to them in a heartbeat.

 

And what would be the purpose of forcing a breeder to take back a dog it doesn't want? How is that benefitting the dog? It's not.

[mbc1963]

Autumn...

 

I'm so sorry for how you're feeling. The first few weeks I had my dog, I thought I might have to take him back to the shelter because he was aggressive when scared. I cried many times in my car, knowing that the shelter would just put the dog down if I returned him. And this was after only knowing him for mere days - not months or years. He's my good and loving boy, now, and he's fine with most humans... but in the right circumstances, he could react in fear and bite someone.

 

It is entirely possible that you are the wrong owner for Ghost - just as it's entirely possible you would have been exactly the right owner for another dog who was wired differently. My little sister tends to be shy and non-assertive. She ended up with a shy and timid little girl dog who loves her and accepts her (shy and non-assertive) way of ruling the roost. Had she ended up with a pushy, dominant kind of dog, I think it would have been a very bad mix. Luck was on her side!

 

On the other hand, I've got a neighbor who works training dogs, and she had to put down a black lab she rescued, because he bit someone. She had all the right "skills," and still ended up living your nightmare. So it's possible this would have played out the way it did regardless of your strengths and weaknesses.

 

We are who we are, and we can only learn from experiences when we've had them. Don't beat yourself up for not being exactly what Ghost needed; no one is able to do everything. Most of us are just lucky we've never ended up in a situation like yours.

 

I agree that you should step away from the computer and get some perspective on this. People in this forum mean well, but beliefs in here can be very dogmatic - sometimes posters forget that we're not debating philosophy in a case like this, but real, raw human feelings and real, stink-breath, shaggy, beloved dogs. We can give you all the advice and lectures you can read - but they won't necessarily give you the clean perspective and wide view you need in a situation like this.

 

Good luck!

 

Mary

[Lenajo]

People in this forum mean well, but beliefs in here can be very dogmatic - sometimes posters forget that we're not debating philosophy in a case like this, but real, raw human feelings and real, stink-breath, shaggy, beloved dogs.

 

oh yes, none of us have been there, done that. We just play this on TV...I mean the internet.

 

It's pretty clear that Autumn has been directed to professional local help. That doesn't change the validity or the experience of the posters discussing the situation here.

[Lenajo]

However, the minute a breeder refuses to take a dog back, judgments get made that it's a bad breeder and it's everyone's business all of a sudden. I disagree.

 

And I don't agree with you. Such is life.

 

Honestly the few times I've had a serious genetic problem with a dog the breeder bent over backwards to work with me. We didn't need a contract, or a policy of this or that. It was simply good business and good ethics. I treated the dog fairly, and they treated me fairly, and both of us honored what we agreed upon. It was pretty simple.

 

That seems difficult for a lot of people - both breeders and buyers - but doesn't appear to be a huge issue here with Autumn. If anything she was sold a dog she shouldn't have been - but who's fault was that? oh, yes...back to the breeder.

[beachdogz]

What if Ghost was 7 years old? Would you still feel the breeder has a duty to take the dog back? What about if he was 11? Still? Where's the cutoff? Or is a breeder responsible for every puppy they put on the ground every day those puppies are alive no matter what ever and ever amen?

 

wow. both lenajo and jdarling make very good points on opposite sides....so while they are slugging it out on the boards (both with legitimate viewpoints), it gets you thinking. I did very limited breeding (5 litters) and had it in my contract that I had "right of first refusal". I only ever had one dog come back, but I gladly took it back. I think she was two.

 

I probably live by the Robert Frost (the poet) quote "Home is the place that when you have to go there they have to take you in."

 

Breeders aren't legally responsible to do so...but ethically? I don't know. Maybe that's why breeders should limit their breeding.

[mbc1963]

It's pretty clear that Autumn has been directed to professional local help. That doesn't change the validity or the experience of the posters discussing the situation here.

 

I don't believe I challenged either the validity or the experience of the posters. I'm sure every single person making a point in here has a more poignant story to tell than I do. But I still do believe that, given the jangly nerves and raw feelings the OP is feeling right now, a heated 'net debate about (dog) politics is probably going to aggravate more than enlighten. I wasn't telling Autumn not to take the advice in her - only to take a breather and give herself time to process all this.

 

Mary

[Kyrasmom]

Do any of you realize how difficult it is to admit to yourself that a dog you have had since 7 weeks old, a dog you have spent almost ALL day with, EVERY day, a dog you have bonded with so deeply that it feels like your soul is being ripped from you as you see the car drive away that has him in it... Do ANY of you realize how hard it is to admit to yourself that your DOG deserves better than YOU?

 

Please, stop judging me. I know I am not perfect, but until you are in my situation and feel how I feel, cry as much as I have cried over this, please, just stop.

 

Autumn

 

Actually, yes. I know how it feels to be in your shoes as I've walked in them. That's why it gets my dander up when relinquishing is an option explored BEFORE medical screening.

 

I know that Cooper, the dog of my heart, would probably do better in an only dog home with someone who could deal with his mood swings and reactive nature. And that home probably exists somewhere but my heart does not allow me to look for it....because I would always have the doubt that somewhere along the line, the new owner may not commit for the rest of HIS life which is what I've committed to.

 

We went through A LOT with him and I was told to put him down numerous times, and I like you, was convinced he wasn't that bad. One day I opened the front door to see why he was growling and he lunged straight for my face....luckily I was quick and then the moment was gone. I kept thinking it was behavioral only because he obviously was my favorite and I had been more lenient with him during his puppyhood.

 

But after that incident, I took his butt in for a complete screening and he got neutered. It was then that we discovered his severe hypothyroidism that does cause unpredictable aggressive incidents. He continues to be reactive but 85% of it is gone and he has demonstrated NO human aggression since then. He still doesn't like the other dogs and he still guards me if I'm not quick to move away and/or redirect him.

 

So in being judgemental, and I'm sorry that I was but it's a touchy subject for me, I'm only saying that if he is the dog of your heart, get some simple blood work done. It's not that expensive and may save Ghost a lifetime of misery....and even if he's not the right dog for you, it may make him more "adoptable" and give him an extra chance at a forever home.

 

I do wish you the best of luck.

Maria

[herdcentral]

Hi Autumn, I understand how draining and consuming this situation must be for you. I had a pup who started to become aggressive to other dogs and strangers. Her saving grace was that she was in no way aggresive to dogs and people she knew well. This would have added a more extreme stress to the situation like you are experiencing with Ghost.

 

After may months or trawling the net, reading books and obedience classes I turned to professional help. She was diagnosed with dominance aggression which didnt sit right with what I was seeing and I found another professional who specialised in reactive dogs and used positive training methods. She also ran reactive rover classes. What a blessing this person was. Her knowledge and understanding of dog behaviour was amazing and she showed me how my dog was reacting from fear. Properly diagnosed and with a specific plan in place we started to make progress.

 

However it was still a long hard time consuming road. My girl would never be 100% trustworthy but it did get a lot better after 18 months of hard work. I lost her unexpectadly at a young age so I never found out how far she could have gone. I have to say life is easier without her but she taught me so much and I loved her.

 

These dogs can take an enormous time committment and it is understandable that this is not feasible for some people. Personally if I had not been able to deal with this or she had been aggressive within my family I would have had to consider to euthanaise her in my arms knowing she was loved.

 

These dogs have a tenuous future especially if they end up in the wrong hands and once he is passed on this out of your control.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I don't see any evidence that he is an exceptional individual from a sporting or herding standpoint, his only value is in his ability to be a good companion which he is failing at or to be a learning tool for Autumn so she can learn how to train and handle a dog. In order for him to be a learning tool for her she needs proper support from someone that understands where things are going wrong, how bad things could get and can give her the tools that she needs to succeed. She needs to be willing to look to herself for the answers to the problems.

 

This bears repeating! This dog was bred to be *shudder* a companion dog and has failed the basic requirement. Autumn's choices are as delineated above, and nothing else.

 

Autumn, think carefully about what you expected from this dog, and how that is factoring in to your desire to make this someone else's problem now. Is this dog an unbearable burden on your future, or can you possibly make this into an opportunity?

 

Melanie would have a LOT to say about this right now, but she's on her honeymoon in NZ if I'm not mistaken. I'm sure she won't mind my posting Solo's stories. Read what she went through, look at where it took her, and ask yourself whether it's really all that bad? Click and scroll all the way to the bottom and read the "last" posts first to see his story in the right order.

[Genie]

...I agree with a lot of what is said here, and its a sad situation, but I still think its irresponsible to make black and white recommendations (kill the dog) without any real experience with this GIRL and her dog. She needs help. The dog may need to be put down. I like the recommendation that Autumn and Ghost seek out an animal behaviorist. I could respect a decision that was made face to face with a full and professional evaluation. Can what is said on these boards be enough to make such a critical decision though?

Its not at all irresponsible to tell her the dog should be put to sleep instead of being rehomed. What would be irresponsible is placing this dog with a history of food aggression and now a bite history. If she already knew someone who loved this dog, had the skills to work with him and was committed to working with him, it might be ok to place him with such a person, but to go looking for someone to take the dog is another matter. There's no guarantee that the next person won't pass him on to yet another person. What would happen then if they're not upfront about his problems or they place him with someone ill equipped to work with him? Its a disaster waiting to happen.

She's been given advice. That's all the help we can offer on this board. Some advice is easier to swallow than others, but that doesn't make it any less important.

[TheStacks]

I guess I don't understand what average person would willing take on a dog with a bite history with the liability that entails. I don't mean the OP, but the person expected to "adopt" this dog. If this was disclosed to me I would run screaming in the other direction. I have a fear aggressive/reactive dog. She has never bitten, but my entire life is managing her and it never crossed my mind to make it someone else's problem.

 

I have a close family member in the same situation. They are working with a veterinary behaviorist, but not having much luck. She keeps mentioning rehoming him and I keep telling her I don't see that as an option. This dog has bitten family, visitors, and their other dog. At times these seem to be randomly provoked. Who would want that? She mentions rescue and I have pointed her to these types of discussions here for an unbiased viewpoint on the "options".

 

As I see it there are only two viable options in these cases: Keep the dog and exhaust all possibilities and resources or euthanize. Choice one may also lead you to the same outcome and you need to be prepared for that.

 

JMO.

[BustopherJones]

Please, stop judging me.

 

“We can never judge the lives of others, because each person knows only their own pain and renunciation. It's one thing to feel that you are on the right path, but it's another to think that yours is the only path.” (Paulo Coelho) I do not judge you. I cannot even begin to imagine the terrible anguish you are going through, because I have never personally been through it myself; I can only conjecture as to how devastated I would have been if I ever had to face this terrible decision with one of my dogs. I can only offer the advice of Nancy Lopez: “Doubt yourself and you doubt everything you see. Judge yourself and you see judges everywhere. But if you listen to the sound of your own voice, you can rise above doubt and judgment. And you can see forever.” Don't judge or second-guess yourself, and don't allow others to judge you; whatever decision you make will be the right one, because it will come from your heart, and will be one made in the light of the love that you have for your beloved Ghost.

[beachdogz]

Melanie would have a LOT to say about this right now, but she's on her honeymoon in NZ if I'm not mistaken. I'm sure she won't mind my posting Solo's stories. Read what she went through, look at where it took her, and ask yourself whether it's really all that bad? Click and scroll all the way to the bottom and read the "last" posts first to see his story in the right order.

 

That was a great website. I enjoyed reading it. thank you.

[bc4pack]

I don't feel he is bad enough to put down at this point, I just feel that I am not an experienced enough owner to deal with the issues that he has. I feel overwhelmed and incredibly depressed.

Autumn

 

 

Hon,

You need to find a good,positive trainer that can help you implement a behavior modification plan and work with

you. You need a pair of experienced eyes to see what is going on...to suggest a complete workup or meds if they think necessary or to help you learn or give you insight into how your behavior is affecting your dog's behavior.

NO ONE here can truly tell you what to do.

I think that with some professional help you should be able to turn this around, but none of us are there...

[katyh]

Hon,

You need to find a good,positive trainer that can help you implement a behavior modification plan and work with

you. You need a pair of experienced eyes to see what is going on...to suggest a complete workup or meds if they think necessary or to help you learn or give you insight into how your behavior is affecting your dog's behavior.

NO ONE here can truly tell you what to do.

I think that with some professional help you should be able to turn this around, but none of us are there...

 

 

Exactly. Nicely said. I'm sure its easier to just keep putting dogs down, like Jon Katz does, and not address our own part in our dog's issues, but Autumn doesn't sound like she'd be happy with this approach. There will be other dogs to kill later, I'm sure, but for now it might be nice to get a PROFESSIONAL opinion on the dog's problem instead of going with the message board diagnosis.

[ShoresDog]

Well, five pages later, I'm going to post my post again:

 

This is a link to the website of the American College of Veterinary Behaviorist list of board-certified behaviorists. These people are all veterinarians who have further training in animal behavior. They can advise on behavior modification AND they can prescribe medications.

 

DACVB

 

I see that there is a member listed in Kirkland, Washington, and one listed in Portland, Oregon. I think you would get a lot of benefit from a consult with a behaviorist. Aggression is something they see all the time, and they won't judge you or your dog, just try to evaluate and problem-solve.

 

I think before taking irreversible steps it would really be worth your time to get a consult.

[Journey]

Exactly. Nicely said. I'm sure its easier to just keep putting dogs down, like Jon Katz does, and not address our own part in our dog's issues, but Autumn doesn't sound like she'd be happy with this approach. There will be other dogs to kill later, I'm sure, but for now it might be nice to get a PROFESSIONAL opinion on the dog's problem instead of going with the message board diagnosis.

 

Yep, and it's easy for you to say this instead of contributing. People have given her ideas, reasons and causes - based on experience. And options as to how to handle this. Sure hope Autumn doesn't get seriously hurt again or a child....And I know disclaimers have been added to many posts indicating it's hard to say as no one was there. And what makes you so sure that no one here is a "Professional"??

 

I've seen first hand what an aggressive dog can do to another dog and a child - have you?

[katyh]

Yep, and it's easy for you to say this instead of contributing. People have given her ideas, reasons and causes - based on experience. And options as to how to handle this. Sure hope Autumn doesn't get seriously hurt again or a child....And I know disclaimers have been added to many posts indicating it's hard to say as no one was there. And what makes you so sure that no one here is a "Professional"??

 

I've seen first hand what an aggressive dog can do to another dog and a child - have you?

 

 

It's as easy for me to say this as it is for you to say put the dog down because I had to once and your situation has to be the same as mine. Because it involves a dog. All dogs are the same. Death to the Dog. I didn't suggest letting the dog visit a kindergarten or turning him loose at the park. I suggest GETTING A PROFESSIONAL opinion. I don't know how many people on this list might fit into that category. I know I'd be suspicious of anyone offering a "Professional" opinion on a message board, without meeting the girl and the dog and witnessing the problem first hand.

[jdarling]

I know I'd be suspicious of anyone offering a "Professional" opinion on a message board, without meeting the girl and the dog and witnessing the problem first hand.

 

No doubt.

[Laurae]

I suggest GETTING A PROFESSIONAL opinion.

 

You, and about 47 people before you, who have already suggested that.

[PSmitty]

I'm too lazy to go back and read the other 4 pages, but, did anyone actually say to just put down the dog, period? I thought there were quite a few helpful suggestions made, most importantly a full medical checkup, but Autumn has already decided she won't do that. I, for one, suggested a vet behaviorist, and I know others did, as well. What we did say was, don't pass on a problem dog, take that for what it's worth.

 

Besides, she came asking for advice. Sometimes we don't like the advice we're given, and we obviously don't have to take it. But she did ask...

[MaryP]

Exactly. Nicely said. I'm sure its easier to just keep putting dogs down, like Jon Katz does, and not address our own part in our dog's issues, but Autumn doesn't sound like she'd be happy with this approach. There will be other dogs to kill later, I'm sure, but for now it might be nice to get a PROFESSIONAL opinion on the dog's problem instead of going with the message board diagnosis.

 

I don't think people are shouting en masse, "Kill the dog!" What people are saying is that if the OP is not willing to address the problem herself (e.g., check the dog out medically, consult a vet behaviorist, get some professional help - as has been suggested over and over), then she has no business passing this "problem" on to another person. So, as I see it, she has two choices, (1) keep the dog and work on the problem or (2) have the dog put down. Passing him on is irresponsible, cowardly, and could very well have severe legal consequences.