dinah_kay Posted October 2, 2008 Report Share Posted October 2, 2008 One thing to seriously think about is medicating this dog. I know it isn't a perfect answer, but it could help give you some breathing room for behavior modification. A veterinary behaviorist (make sure you go to a VETERINARY behaviorist) can prescribe medications like Prozac and others, which can be a great tool in a dog with serious issues. The meds aren't expensive ( at least generic Prozac was only a few dollars a month) so it is worth looking into. Second, IMO you must neuter this dog. There is no reason IMO that he should be intact, and it could only be possibly contributing to his issues. Lastly, I think a full blood panel is a must. This issue could be as simple as a thyroid issue, although it could be something else all together. Of course none of us can tell you that you should or shouldn't put your dog down, but I do think you need to be very honest with yourself on this dog. You might not be the right type of handler to deal with his issues, but you also have to be very careful where you place him due to the HUGE liability issue. Personally I feel that if your current situation continues then you aren't helping this dog get better. IMO you are going to have to make some tough decisions either way. Please just make sure you are fair to the dog, by doing a full medical workup first. Best of luck in this difficult situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynthia P Posted October 2, 2008 Report Share Posted October 2, 2008 Resource guarding is not that big a deal to fix; my first Giant schnauzer had significant guarding issues, still does to some extent but he is managable and well trained. Ghost is young. When you wrote that the bite was deliberat not accidental, that is absolutely true. If a dog doesn't mean to bite you he won't. They have very good aim. Read the "bringing light to Shadow"; I was the first person that Shadow actually bit (in the boob no less); he had agressed on several others. I put him in a spot he felt vulnerable, shouldn't have done it, i know better. I worked with many aggressive dogs and most of them can be retrained to be trustworthy citizens; some cant. You need to decide if you can commit to him. It is not fair to pass him off to anyone else but the original breeder. People insist that Border collies shouldn't be aggressive but sometimes they are. Ghost warned you, a couple of times; you did not heed his warning; You will need to look at your behaviour as well as his. Tons of training on foundation behaviours (sit, lie down, heel, come); feed in his crate so that no one can get hurt until he has more training. Check out the book "Mine!" about resource guarding; or " on the other end of the leash" Both are excellent cynthia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tea Posted October 2, 2008 Report Share Posted October 2, 2008 Under the sire's side, what does it mean earned herding title at 7 months? What did the pup do? And do I understand correctly that she will not help you? She would rather have a dog that she bred out there with this kind of problem? And I read on her site that she is producing this same cross again and advertising them as working dogs and whatever else? I guess I didn't understand how strange this stuff is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted October 2, 2008 Report Share Posted October 2, 2008 Resource guarding is not that big a deal to fix; my first Giant schnauzer had significant guarding issues, still does to some extent but he is managable and well trained. *Managing* is not *fixing*. Management can fail. Fixed means you can put the dogs most desired procession ever in his mouth and he doesn't even consider guarding it. That he doesn't *want* to guard it. When management fails on a high level (and I would say any dog that has bitten and drawn blood is such) resource guarder gets people hurt badly, especially children and anyone that don't expect the behavior and can act quickly enough to protect themselves. Then there is lawsuits.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynthia P Posted October 2, 2008 Report Share Posted October 2, 2008 *Managing* is not *fixing*. Management can fail. Fixed means you can put the dogs most desired procession ever in his mouth and he doesn't even consider guarding it. That he doesn't *want* to guard it. Yes than perhaps Ghost should be PTS; management is an option for some..and perhaps (like many others before me) i chose my words imperfectly cynthia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockdogranch Posted October 2, 2008 Report Share Posted October 2, 2008 Thanks for the links, Jodi. Just what I would have expected. Sigh. Under the sire's side, what does it mean earned herding title at 7 months? What did the pup do? Ahhh...that would be the HIC or something similar in whichever venue. Basically means the pup went in and chased sheep a bit on two different occasions (maybe even from outside the pen, as per the other thread?). Tangent: This is exactly why these titles are meaningless. Pup chases sheep--now the breeder can sell pups saying the parents have "herding titles." Big sigh. (it's either a big sigh or go barf!) A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted October 2, 2008 Report Share Posted October 2, 2008 If she can manage him, I think it would be great. Doesn't sound good though. Hopefully there will be some good options presented by the behaviorist who is hired to help. Yes than perhaps Ghost should be PTS; management is an option for some..and perhaps (like many others before me) i chose my words imperfectly cynthia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoofly Posted October 2, 2008 Report Share Posted October 2, 2008 You know, my barn cat will follow me around while i train dogs if i don't feed her first. I bet she could get an HIC or PT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ms.DaisyDuke Posted October 2, 2008 Report Share Posted October 2, 2008 Julie, we plan to do a health screen if we take him back. Finances simply won't permit doing it if we are going to rehome him anyways. It's not cost effective for us at this time, money is very tight.Ghost has not been raw fed very long, only a couple of months actually. He was being food aggressive when he was fed kibble too. Also, the circumstances of your bite vary greatly from mine. Ghost didn't just break the skin, he punctured, very severely, the inside of my wrist. I am a very petite and thin person, so it's not like I had any extra protection either, it went straight into the nerves, even now my hand is bent more towards the left, and if I try to move it it's very painful. It also was not an accidental bite, it was deliberate. I am going to echo what Cynthia P said about if dogs bite, they mean to bite. There are no accidents, if they want to make contact, they will. The severity of the bite will then depend on the bite inhibition of the dog. Perhaps the way you handled the situation could have been different. You put his face in your palms, stared directly at him and used a forceful tone. That was a challenge and he accepted it. Understandable that if finances are tight a dog like this will be a big burden on your budget but I still agree with others that re-homing him really isn't a responsible decision. I hope that you've seen a doctor by now and everything is ok. j Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted October 2, 2008 Report Share Posted October 2, 2008 Big sigh. (it's either a big sigh or go barf!) A Ah, yes the barf bag is necessary! Since this breeder won't take him back maybe Autumn should go up/back a level on the pedigree - the breeder of the bitch. Her site has been posted here before and Jodi knows of them too. The AKC people are so quick to scream that they "guarantee" their pups and back them for life - seems this is one of the exceptions? Karen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandyleew Posted October 2, 2008 Report Share Posted October 2, 2008 I am wondering why the OP pushed the dog past his limits so far. It sounds like he was doing a pretty good job of warning and all his warnings were ignored. This is why I am not a fan of the whole "be the alpha dog yourself" theory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted October 2, 2008 Report Share Posted October 2, 2008 I also wonder if it wasn't aggravated and escalated due to trepidations of the OP. Slowly moving in on a dog that is growling/grumbling and warning is a sure fire way to get bit. Maybe coming in hard and fast and in control would have backed him off? Karen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted October 2, 2008 Report Share Posted October 2, 2008 please note here that the breeder has *another* litter, a repeat of the cross Ghost is from Due Oct. 3. Does that make 2, or is 3 repeats of this litter? And look, multiple other litters....is this why there is not room to take back a pup of your own? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixie_Girl Posted October 2, 2008 Report Share Posted October 2, 2008 I would think that if a dog is growling already, especially with a raised lip, the LAST thing I would do is grab the dog by the face and yell at it. To me, that was a challange and the dog simply answered it the way dogs do. He bit her. IMO, a dog that just bites is not aggresive per se. He is just trying to get his point across. If the dog wanted, he could have done a lot more damage than just a puncture in her arm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bc4pack Posted October 2, 2008 Report Share Posted October 2, 2008 And of course "High in demand" <sigh> and no room to take him back... GEESH! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted October 2, 2008 Report Share Posted October 2, 2008 I would think that if a dog is growling already, especially with a raised lip, the LAST thing I would do is grab the dog by the face and yell at it. To me, that was a challenge and the dog simply answered it the way dogs do. He bit her. IMO, a dog that just bites is not aggressive per se. He is just trying to get his point across. If the dog wanted, he could have done a lot more damage than just a puncture in her arm. I must have missed something - I didn't mean grab him - get the food outta there and get him under control. I thought she said she "slowly moved her foot in between him and the food". Karen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted October 2, 2008 Report Share Posted October 2, 2008 It would work, *if* you were already in control. It doesn't sound like Autumn is. I've always told people that when it comes to physical discipline, if you have to stop and think about it "because <xyz> might happen" then you are already too late, and in far to weak a mindset to even try it and will get hurt. When you are experienced and it's your own dog, you can, and should, deal with it. I would meet my dog head on, as you would Karen. We wouldn't think, we would do. That...whether people like the description or not...is real Alpha. Faking Alpha gets you hurt. That said, you couldn't pay me to take Ghost on. Life's too short, and their are far too many unspoiled and non-RG dogs that I can help without risking blood loss. I also wonder if it wasn't aggravated and escalated due to trepidations of the OP. Slowly moving in on a dog that is growling/grumbling and warning is a sure fire way to get bit. Maybe coming in hard and fast and in control would have backed him off? Karen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted October 2, 2008 Report Share Posted October 2, 2008 I would think that if a dog is growling already, especially with a raised lip, the LAST thing I would do is grab the dog by the face and yell at it. To me, that was a challange and the dog simply answered it the way dogs do. I agree, but sometimes I guess you just need to learn that the hard way. As the owner of a dog who will bite, I can say that the last thing I would ever do is escalate things when he gets that look in his eye. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdarling Posted October 2, 2008 Report Share Posted October 2, 2008 So how long is the breeder responsible for taking the dog back, and when does the owner's responsibility kick in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tea Posted October 2, 2008 Report Share Posted October 2, 2008 Stock dog You are kidding me right? I guess I didn't get it untill now how bizarre this is..... Heck I've got sled dogs that could earn a herding title. That is sad. I don't understand....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted October 2, 2008 Report Share Posted October 2, 2008 I agree, but sometimes I guess you just need to learn that the hard way. As the owner of a dog who will bite, I can say that the last thing I would ever do is escalate things when he gets that look in his eye. J. I honestly cannot believe you live with that. I put up with a lot from my dogs, and they of me I've dealt with dog aggression, stranger aggression, reactivity, fears phobias.... but being threatened with real risk of worse if I "push" it? No way. That dog would go see Jesus. Kindly and humanely, but if not fixable pdq definately gone. eta - Sorry Julie, this is coming off as judgemental, but it's just something I really don't understand. I sort of hope I never do. He's a lucky dog that you are so tolerant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixie_Girl Posted October 2, 2008 Report Share Posted October 2, 2008 Karen, I know YOU didn't mean grab him. That is what SHE did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixie_Girl Posted October 2, 2008 Report Share Posted October 2, 2008 I live with that with Holly. She is a "rescue". Ha Ha. No way can I adopt her out. But she still does what I want. We just don't get to the bite level. If one of my dogs were to say, be fixing to step on an object that could hurt them, I could grab them on any body part and drag them away. If I did that to Holly, she would be safe, but I would get bit. (she better watch where she is going, heh heh) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted October 2, 2008 Report Share Posted October 2, 2008 Karen, I know YOU didn't mean grab him. That is what SHE did. But she did that when he came at her while she was trying to get the food out of there. I think she did the right thing, not strong enough maybe (well obviously as she was bit). But I would have gotten the food out and then dealt with it as she was trying. I just think there was too much hesitation/fear on her part and things went south from there. This thread is morphing.... Breeders responsible up to a point, maybe? But, this breeder is a puppy mill in my NSHO! I agree, take him back to her with all his belongings. K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyrasmom Posted October 2, 2008 Report Share Posted October 2, 2008 So how long is the breeder responsible for taking the dog back, and when does the owner's responsibility kick in? A good breeder should WANT to take this dog back. Add to that that she made the dog, she should take it back IF the owner is unable/unwilling to deal with it instead of it ending up in rescue and/or with another owner who is unable/unwilling to deal with it. If I were a breeder, I would not want anyone I brougt into the world to be put through that. Having said that, owners aren't without responsibility and should be accountable. I know what it's like to deal with a potentially dangerous dog, I know what it's like to be afraid, but I feel that in most of these cases, the dog is far more miserable than he is aggressive. And the key to many (not all) of these dogs is understanding the reasons behind the aggressions, the triggers, and finding what we can do to manage them. I don't believe that ALL of these reactive dogs can be easily "cured" but I do think they can be managed. I think relinquishing without a complete health screening is irresponsible (that's just my opinion). As I've posted SOOOO many times, my reactive aggressive dog who bit me and my husband various times turned out to be severely hypothyroid. Medication has turned him around 90% but we're still dealing with certain triggers that are however manageable. We worked with a behaviorist. And now we are connecting with a vet behaviorist to try and get through the last of our hurdles. I'm not against medication if it helps...my husband is bi-polar and needs meds to lead a healthy happy normal life...why would I not consider it for my dog? I think it's great that a rescue has stepped up to help Autumn and hopefully will help her to make responsible choices but my heart goes out for Ghost who needs a hero right about now. And I'm sorry as this will sound very judgemental, but it doesn't fly that the OP hides behind tight budget to not get a medical work up and yet has the funds to show him in conformation. As owners, the first responsibility should be to the dogs well being and then to activities you may want to pursue. It's a shame because it sounds like Ghost lost in both the breeder slot and the owner slot. Maria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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