Ghost bit me.

[Lenajo]

I love morphing threads

 

There may have been *nothing* Autumn could have done to prevent this bite. Sometimes you get in too deep on an unstable dogs space by mistake and you get bit whether your are advancing or retreating. Now she knows, and can try to protect herself and others while she's making plans of how to deal with him.

 

I want this dog dropped on the breeder's doorstep so bad.....

[juliepoudrier]

I honestly cannot believe you live with that.

 

I put up with a lot from my dogs, and they of me I've dealt with dog aggression, stranger aggression, reactivity, fears phobias.... but being threatened with real risk of worse if I "push" it? No way. That dog would go see Jesus. Kindly and humanely, but if not fixable pdq definately gone.

 

eta - Sorry Julie, this is coming off as judgemental, but it's just something I really don't understand. I sort of hope I never do. He's a lucky dog that you are so tolerant.

 

Actually Wendy, he's not a dog who bites just to bite. He's not dog aggressive or people aggressive, nor is he a resource guarder. He's well-behaved when he travels with me and he actually likes people. He's basically a fear biter in very specific and limited situations (for example, if he's afraid, typically as the result of a thunderstorm, and won't leave a particular spot because of it and you grab at his collar, he'll bite, but if you toss a slip lead over his head--and you can certainly get close enough to him to do this without fear of losing a limb--he goes along willingly), and since I can easily manage his environment, it's not really an issue. I should also add that he has great bite inhibition, and over the nine years I've had him, he's put his teeth on me maybe three times (and each time it was because I snatched at his collar, and one of those times he was quite ill), and has never broken skin. If he were a dog that I truly feared would hurt me or someone else, you can rest assured he wouldn't still be in the land of the living. But as it is, I can read him well, know what will trigger a certain reaction, and don't worry about him 99.9 percent of the time. I do make sure he's muzzled whenever a stranger has to do anything with him just for safety's sake, but when it's just me and him, I don't worry overmuch about getting a bite reaction out of him. Since his being here in my pack doesn't adversely affect the quality of his life or mine, he has the right, IMO, to keep on living.

 

J.

[katyh]

Not long ago I was at a clinic with some friends. We were talking to a woman who had an aussie who was so dog aggressive that she "couldn't take her anywhere"...The dog would lunge at other dogs and attack them. Nothing she could do. She wanted to find a new home for the dog. The breeder's kennel no longer existed and she was willing to just give the dog to anyone at that point who would "give her a good home..."

My friend said she'd take her. My friend has a house full of dogs, but always finds room for one more. The woman went home, got her dog, brought her back to the clinic where it became immediately apparent that this dogs "aggression" problems were largely created by the woman's nervous handling. Jodi...I mean my friend...took her home where she lived peacefully with her other 5 dogs, and visiting dogs, for a few weeks before a new home was found. That dog had no issues in her new environment. Not a sign of aggression.

 

I'm not saying that this case with Ghost is that simple. I am saying that there isn't anything wrong with giving Ghost a second chance with a stronger more experienced handler before putting him down.

[Sue R]

The sire:

Not only is he a beautiful dog, he is a working dog.

 

(his) Herding Titles: BCSA - HIC (Herding Sheep Title)

AHBA - HCT (Herding Sheep Title)

AKC - PT (Pretrial Herding Sheep Title)

AKC - STDs (Started Trial Dog Sheep) First Leg

ASCA -STDs (Started Trial Dog Sheep)

 

(He) lives to herd sheep and got his first herding certificate at only 7 months old! He was awarded a "Herding Instinct Certificate Title" from the Border Collie Society of America. On July 20th, 2003 he also earned a "Herding Capability Test Title" from the American Herding Breed Association. He not only herded sheep, but also ducks and he had never even seen ducks before! Truly a herding Border Collie. In June 2004 he received his ASCA Started Dog Sheep Title. Sheep herding is definitely (his) forte!

 

People who feel that this is what a real working stockdog is, are just proof that the kennel club mindset is the ruination of a breed with a purpose. No, thank you, I'll keep my "ugly" dogs that get the work done. They are Border Collies.

 

Who was it who said to get the gag bag?

[bcnewe2]

There may have been *nothing* Autumn could have done to prevent this bite. Sometimes you get in too deep on an unstable dogs space by mistake and you get bit whether your are advancing or retreating. Now she knows, and can try to protect herself and others while she's making plans of how to deal with him.

 

I think it's important to note that Autumn is trying to do everything she knows how to do. Hind sight is what it is. There have been what some might call bashing type replies. I really don't think anyone is trying to bash the OP for doing the best she can do. Some might be saying it's the easy way out trying to place the dog or getting rid of the dog and they would not do that. BUt I for one admire her for admitting she's in over her head and needs help, ours our her kennel clubs, which ever fits the bill.

 

Someone asked what putting the boot to a dog actually means. I'm not the one that used that phrase and often hesitate to say what I do with my dogs for fear of upsetting the PP trainers that are on this board. But I will give an example of what the stockdog trainer did to my overly reactive jerk of a rescue dog.

He would not give up the frisbee and would growl if you tried to take it away. He would pick someone out in a crowd and lunge. No common issues that we could see just a pusy dominant dog that was left to be that way for the previous 6 owners. So baggage was there.

So....he stockdog trainer had me put a long line on the dog. Then toss him the frisbee and try to retrive it from his mouth. The dog let out a very low warning growl that I'm sure would have turned into exactly what Autumn ran into. This dog had alreay intimidated me to the point of being scarred poopless.

So....with that the SDTrainer yanked him back with the long line. It flipped him right over on his back. He got right up without the frisbee in his mouth and SDT said toss it again. I did and the dog politely let me take it from him this time. Was it the violent nature of the correction that worked? No it was perfect timing on the trainers part and that the correctioin matched what the dog had on it's mind. Something that at that time I wasn't able to do. my timing was late, i was afraid, and not nearly matching the intensity of his attitude.

 

I wouldn't recommend this with just any dog but there are lots out there getting away with things that are just not or should be not allowed and all they need is a reminder of consiquences for bad choices.

 

I was thinking about dogs with issues that are not easy to deal with. I live with dogs that have issues. I was just commenting this past weekend that my dogs are related but their issues are what I've let become issues, not blood being the common denominator. I have a dog that would die before she'd learn to let others (people or dogs) in her space bubble. She's fine here, and managed when we go out. Not a dog that everyone could live with but she fits perfectly here. It's these type dogs that need special homes. Managed properly they're fine but in an improper home, they are bombs waiting to be triggered.

From what Autumn describes I see Ghost as nothing over the top (but it wasn't my hand or wrist that got bit) just a dog needing to know what will be tolerated and what won't. Again...I could be totally wrong.

 

Thinking about her stepping slowly into the dogs space to reclaim the bowl. I don't bother to reclaim bowls or high value stuff. I could, it's not really an issue here. But if I did, I might do it slowly to, just so I don't esculate what the dogs got on his mind. ISTM it was her trepidation that got her in trouble. She's been nervous about him from the start or at least for a while. Who knows why, but she's trying and that's what counts.

 

Mick will give me warning when he's gonna turn a-hole on another dog. If I were to yell at him, even in my most bossest voice I send him right into the fight. If i calmly say "hey, lets do something else" it brings him down a notch. I didn't learn this without trying to boss him out of his fights, I learned it from pulling him off one to many dogs. Is it ok that he's like that? No but we've got a handle on it and it's the best I can do. When that's not enough I'll be out looking for more tools to handle him. It used to really bother me that I didn't have that issue worked out totally then I grew a bit more and decided every dog has it's issues and you deal accordingly or is that every human has their issues and the dogs do the best they can?

 

Autumn,

Don't take personal anything that people have posted, take what helps and let the rest fall around you. You're doing the best you can. That's what counts.

If a dog beats you, it's just that, nothing personal to the dog except that you are not the owner for this dog at this time. Only your/our egos keep us from growing.

Good luck

Kristen

[Lenajo]

Big difference from a resource guarder. Thanks for explaining. I've got an 11 year old Aussie that we manage similarily, for about the same reasons, and love very much.

 

I don't know if I would do it again voluntarily, but I wouldn't have missed Lucy for the world.

 

 

Actually Wendy, he's not a dog who bites just to bite. He's not dog aggressive or people aggressive, nor is he a resource guarder. He's well-behaved when he travels with me and he actually likes people. He's basically a fear biter in very specific and limited situations (for example, if he's afraid, typically as the result of a thunderstorm, and won't leave a particular spot because of it and you grab at his collar, he'll bite, but if you toss a slip lead over his head--and you can certainly get close enough to him to do this without fear of losing a limb--he goes along willingly), and since I can easily manage his environment, it's not really an issue. I should also add that he has great bite inhibition, and over the nine years I've had him, he's put his teeth on me maybe three times (and each time it was because I snatched at his collar, and one of those times he was quite ill), and has never broken skin. If he were a dog that I truly feared would hurt me or someone else, you can rest assured he wouldn't still be in the land of the living. But as it is, I can read him well, know what will trigger a certain reaction, and don't worry about him 99.9 percent of the time. I do make sure he's muzzled whenever a stranger has to do anything with him just for safety's sake, but when it's just me and him, I don't worry overmuch about getting a bite reaction out of him. Since his being here in my pack doesn't adversely affect the quality of his life or mine, he has the right, IMO, to keep on living.

 

J.

[Debbie Meier]

Morphing threads, fun...

 

Taking a step back, based on the history available from other threads I would not expect the breeder to take the dog back, going back over past threads this owner has had problems with the dog prior, has had other dogs sent to rescue (dad sent one prior to Ghost's arrival), has been advised not to bring new dogs into the household due to her issues with Ghost but did it anyway. When the initial issue appeared when the dog was young then I would have expected the breeder to take him back, but not now, the owner has assumed sole responsibility by continuing on and trying to deal with the dog and assumed the risk of making the issue worse, which appears to have happened.

 

Here comes the tough part that many don't want to hear, based on the information supplied about the sire and dam, the dog is of little to no value breeding wise, I don't see any evidence that he is an exceptional individual from a sporting or herding standpoint, his only value is in his ability to be a good companion which he is failing at or to be a learning tool for Autumn so she can learn how to train and handle a dog. In order for him to be a learning tool for her she needs proper support from someone that understands where things are going wrong, how bad things could get and can give her the tools that she needs to succeed. She needs to be willing to look to herself for the answers to the problems. If she can not find the proper support and does not wish to learn from this dog then she either needs to have him PTS or continue to care for him in a safe manner until she finds an individual willing to assume his problems (which may be and probably is soley a problem between her and the dog).

 

There is a good chance that this dog is not unstable, but in order for change to occur he may need to relearn a lot things, the first is yielding and honoring to the handlers space. If he honored Autumns space and authority he would have never bit her. Personally, I would not want to take him on, he's just a dog, he has discovered that he can dominate people and regardless of whether or not a person could get along with him he will always be predisposed to trying to display this same behaivor again when he has the opportunity, why not, it has worked for him. If someone was to try to rehabilitate him they run the risk of finding out that he will bite to his death, basically he will choose death over allowing a person to be above him in the food chain. With that said, Autumn, if you do try to get help with him you have to understand that if you fail due to him choosing death over submission he will have to be PTS anyway. IMO the risks are too great for too little gain, which it appears the rescue group in Autumns area has also concluded.

 

Deb

[juliepoudrier]

I don't know if I would do it again voluntarily, but I wouldn't have missed Lucy for the world.

I wouldn't voluntarily do it again either. This is a dog I took on after his owner died (owner was ill with cancer so the dog also got no socialization, didn't know how to act around people or other dogs) with the idea that I would work with him a bit on socialization and basic manners, and then find him a suitable home. It didn't take me long to realize that he would be trouble for most folks (he's got obsessive-compulsive issues as well) and that finding him a forever home with someone would be difficult. So he's gotten to live out his life with me. I love him despite his faults, but if someone like Autumn came along and asked if I'd be willing to work with another problem dog, the answer would be no. Life's too short, and I could use the space for a well-bred working dog....

 

J.

[Bo Peep]

I looked at the link. I don't know how you guys get these things. I can barely find my way around a computer.

 

Autumn, have you thought about contacting some of the other owners of the same litter and see if they have the same problems with their pups?

 

If I were the breeder, I most certainly would like to know about this type of aggression. I have never had any problems with any of my dogs or rescues. I had one dog that was aggressive towards her food against the other dogs, but not people. Are you willing to take that chance if a young toddler comes around? I would hate to spend all my hours watching in fear of a dog that might bite me or another and it certainly isn't fair to the dog, either.

 

For those of you that are so good at looking up websites, I'd love to see a picture of Usher's mother. Her name is Wink ABC 229798 Owner Carmen Bubar used to live in Baker City, OR now lives in Elko NV and owns a goat farm.

[ragtimedog]

In my experience, dogs growl because they're uncomfortable. I've dealt with several growlers in my life and I've tried to 1. ignore it if it's a non-issue. Some dogs just talk and complain but don't ever act on it. 2. discipline gently, so the dog is not as fearful of confrontation. My greyhound would growl in his crate AND would bite if I came after him. Of course - he felt cornered.

I don't want to offer advice online since I don't know the dog, but if the dog could and would bite, I would probably try to calm him with verbal commands and keep my hands away. Maybe a down before the dish is put down and then leave him alone.

It's a hard one and hard to really give good advice, like I said. But that's what I've done in the past. Hope it helps.

l

[ragtimedog]

btw, I once adopted a dog who bit and he was the best dog I ever had. I still miss that boy!

L

[elementbcs]

I am new to this board, and to Border Collies, but not to dogs. I have been working with and training dogs for most of my life, both purebred and mixed breeds. I have bought dogs from breeders and have had several rescues as well. I have been around dogs with a wide variety of temperaments and quirks, and have been able to responsibly deal with them. I love dogs, no matter where they came from. But there are some things that I just will not do.

 

The one thing that I will not tolerate from any dog is unprovoked human aggression, and here is why:

 

Working at my local animal shelter taught me that for every human aggressive dog there is, there are 50 more that are not aggressive that need homes. Call me heartless, but I would rather put my time into a dog that is more likely to be adopted/would fit into a wider variety of homes than one that tries to take my face off. I am one of the biggest dog lovers you will ever meet, but I only have so much time. That being said, I have a Boston Terrier (spayed female) that is afraid of small children and will bite when she feels nervous or cornered. I have worked very hard at rehabilitating her and she is doing much better but I would never trust her 100% around little kids. But I manage it by not ever putting her in that situation. She has never actually bitten anyone because I am careful with her. But if she does bite someone, I will most likely have her PTS. Sure, it's sad, but having a dog like this is a liability.

 

However, I think that fear aggression and dominant aggression are two very different things, and have to be managed very differently.

 

In regards to Ghost's situation, I feel bad for both Autumn and the dog. The situation frankly sucks. First off, I think all this talk about his pedigree and breeding is immaterial. Now is not the time to bring up all this crap about Ghost that has already been touched on in other threads. It does nothing to help her solve the problem she came on the board to ask.

 

We don't know everything that has gone on to contribute to the bite, and won't ever really know, because none of us were there. However, it seems like Ghost is a very dominant dog that learned he could overpower his owner. That alone makes him extremely dangerous, not only to Autumn herself and her family, but to all people right now. He has no respect for people and thinks he can do whatever he wants, including bite. It's not fair to the dog to keep him crated 24/7, and it's also not fair for Autumn to live in fear of her own dog. So, what to do?

 

If Autumn does not want to keep Ghost, the only responsible thing to do is to have him PTS. He does not need to go on to be someone else's problem. There are enough dogs in rescue already that need homes. This is the reason most rescue organizations will not take known biters.

 

If she does want to keep him...

 

I agree that he should be neutered, ASAP. This is not a dog that should be shown or bred for sure. Definitely not a trait you want to promote or pass on. Taking him off of "high value" raw food would be a good thing to do, but it definitely will not fix the problem. Autumn, you said that you stopped feeding him in his crate because he acted aggressively.... well, he won that battle didn't he? I would go right back to feeding him in his crate (if you need to, isolate him in a room by himself--NOT your bedroom--while he eats) and leaving him in the crate until he calms down and finishes his food.

 

I would also start making him work for every bit of praise he gets, this is called "Nothing In Life Is Free" or NILIF. The basic philosophy of this is that the dominant dog learns that the "top dog" position is not available to him, only to the trainer/handler/owner, and that his life is far easier if he doesn't constantly push for that position. To start off, never give him attention when he asks for it, only when YOU want to. If he bumps your hand for a pet, take your hand away and ignore him. Don't push him away (that gives him attention) or say "no" or anything. Just completely ignore him. If you give in, you are telling him that he is higher up in the pack hierarchy than you. Little things like making him do a command before you give him a treat, not letting him jump on you, making him sit before jumping in the car, and not letting him pull on the leash on a walk will all help contribute to a more respectful dog. Also, never let him jump on your bed or furniture, and if he sleeps in your bedroom, move his crate somewhere else. And never let him eat food off your plate. You can still give him affection, but make sure that is is YOU that initiates it, not him. If you want to play ball, bring the ball to him and throw it, don't throw it if he brings it to you demanding you play with him. Remember, he is just a dog-- YOU call the shots.

 

On a final note...Autumn, if you want to keep Ghost I would HIGHLY suggest going to see an animal behaviorist. This will only cost about the same as one or two show entry fees and will make things much easier and less scary for you. People on message boards can only respond to the information you give us, but a trainer can see things firsthand that maybe you don't even notice you're doing.

[BustopherJones]

And yes, you should see a doctor about your bite.

Excellent advice. Missy only bit me once in her entire life (my fault); I required a Tetanus booster, and antibiotics to treat the infection.

 

As far as your situation, it makes me cringe to think about putting any pet down. Yet, there are circumstances where it is warranted. It is certainly one of the most devastating and demoralizing chocies any pet owner has to make. I would suggest that you read "A Good Dog" by Jon Katz; the story he tells may help put your own choices in perspective, and (whether you agree with him or not) help guide you to the right decision.

 

My thoughts and prayers go out to you.

[jdarling]

I would suggest that you read "A Good Dog" by Jon Katz

 

Hey, yeah, cause Katz puts dogs down like every 3 chapters... He'll make you feel OKAY about it.

[stockdogranch]

Oh, Bustopher, you stepped in it big time here, mentioning Katz. You might want to do an archive search on him to see the general take on this guy and his books and his "training."

 

A

[Lenajo]

In regards to Ghost's situation, I feel bad for both Autumn and the dog. The situation frankly sucks. First off, I think all this talk about his pedigree and breeding is immaterial. Now is not the time to bring up all this crap about Ghost that has already been touched on in other threads. It does nothing to help her solve the problem she came on the board to ask.

 

It's not immaterial. It's why Autumn's in this mess. It's why Ghost was even born.

 

You can't talk about the train wreck, without looking at who made the engine, who drove it, and the track it was on.

 

So.... this thread is about Autumn and Ghost, but this board is about the Border Collie. We all learn from the discussion, as do the potential owners of this breed who come to this board.

[Flamincomet]

I haven't caught up with this whole thread yet, but I feel the need to comment on some things now.

 

First of all, yes I did go to the clinic, so that is not a problem. The wound was dressed and I change it every day. I'm keeping close watch on it to make sure it isn't showing signs of infection.

 

Second. Though I agree with everyone's points about the breeder (Which is the owner of the dam, not the stud.) and I would actually bet I have even stronger feelings than anyone else on the board about this (considering I am the one IN this situation) I would appreciate it if those comments were left out of this discussion.

No the breeder won't take him back, no they won't help place him, Yes I am, frankly, PISSED about the whole situation, but that isn't the topic of this thread. If you wish to go bash this breeder please make another thread.

 

Autumn

[jdarling]

If you wish to go bash this breeder please make another thread.

 

I don't understand what the breeder is being bashed for (or if she even is ...). The breeder did her job. She bred the dog. She then sold the dog to you. A breeder should not be EXPECTED to take a dog back. A breeder should not be EXPECTED to help you find a home for the dog. It's your dog. You bought it. It is now your responsibility.

 

If the breeder decides to take the dog back or help you rehome it, that's great. But if she's not willing to, that should be her choice, and should not "raise red flags" or anything else. (I think there's a gazillion other red flags with this particular breeder and I would never have bought a pup from her in the first place -- but I'll have to start a new thread if I want to discuss those things, I guess.) And dropping the dog on the breeder's doorstep (as much as we would all love to) is doing no one, especially the dog, any good.

 

Jodi

[Flamincomet]

I think it's great that a rescue has stepped up to help Autumn and hopefully will help her to make responsible choices but my heart goes out for Ghost who needs a hero right about now. And I'm sorry as this will sound very judgemental, but it doesn't fly that the OP hides behind tight budget to not get a medical work up and yet has the funds to show him in conformation. As owners, the first responsibility should be to the dogs well being and then to activities you may want to pursue.

 

It's a shame because it sounds like Ghost lost in both the breeder slot and the owner slot.

 

Maria

 

Actually I have only been to 3 shows with him, one of those was in my own town, so not very costly to go to, and the other 2 I only went with him one day each.

 

I recently (Saturday, before all this happened) decided to STOP showing him in conformation until his behavior was under control, and if I needed to neuter him then I would. Ghost's well being is far more important to me than any activities I think would be fun to do.

 

Unfortunately the DAY I was implementing a new training program (Control Unleashed for his reactivness, and I have "The other end of the leash", "How to be the leader of the pack and have your dog love you for it" and "Don't shoot the dog". All of which I picked out as BIRTHDAY presents to myself so I can help Ghost.) I was bit. I literally CAN'T physically control him at this point do to nerve damage in my hand that will, hopefully, heal in a few weeks.

 

I am NOT going to just "pass him on," ANY potentials are going to be screened EXTENSIVELY. I will schedule home visits, they will fill out lengthy applications, they will meet ALL of my requirements OR I WILL NOT PLACE HIM WITH THEM.

 

I don't feel he is bad enough to put down at this point, I just feel that I am not an experienced enough owner to deal with the issues that he has. I feel overwhelmed and incredibly depressed. Do you all really think I don't WANT to keep Ghost? I DO!! I want to keep him more than anything, but I have to take into account what is best for him, and I don't think that *I* am best for him.

 

Do any of you realize how difficult it is to admit to yourself that a dog you have had since 7 weeks old, a dog you have spent almost ALL day with, EVERY day, a dog you have bonded with so deeply that it feels like your soul is being ripped from you as you see the car drive away that has him in it... Do ANY of you realize how hard it is to admit to yourself that your DOG deserves better than YOU?

 

Please, stop judging me. I know I am not perfect, but until you are in my situation and feel how I feel, cry as much as I have cried over this, please, just stop.

 

Autumn

[BustopherJones]

Oh, Bustopher, you stepped in it big time here, mentioning Katz.

It was certainly not my intent to be an advocate of Jon Katz, nor to endorse his actions. Personally, I find his actions offensive. But the anguish that he went through, and which he describes in this book, is similar to that which the OP is facing; to have another's perspective on a similar scenario sometimes helps clarifies one's own thoughts, even if they are diametrically opposed to those of the author. After all, isn't the desire to stimulate thought and emotion, and to help us clarify our own perceptions, one of the reasons that we read books in the first place? I know that I would find literature extremely boring if I only read authors with whose views I always agreed.

[elementbcs]

I don't feel he is bad enough to put down at this point

 

When will he be "bad enough?" When he bites someone else? Bites you in the face? An aggressive dog is nothing to take lightly...

[beachdogz]

.. Do ANY of you realize how hard it is to admit to yourself that your DOG deserves better than YOU?

Please, stop judging me. I know I am not perfect, but until you are in my situation and feel how I feel, cry as much as I have cried over this, please, just stop.

 

Autumn

 

First of all, Autumn, I do not believe that your dog "deserves better than you". From your posts, you sounded like a dedicated owner who did many right things. You are young, and inexperienced, and have a very difficult first dog to deal with.

 

That said, I think you need to take a vacation from posting boards and even from your dog so that you can clear your mind and logically think about what your next step will be. You should not make a hasty decision regarding this. But no matter WHAT your decision may be..it is YOUR decision. The only person you really have to answer to is yourself. So you must feel completely confident in what you decide to do (no matter what that is and no matter who agrees or disagrees with it.)

 

Please quit beating yourself over the head about this. If you have learned anything from this thread and the other thread on reactive dogs, it is that you are certainly not the first person to deal with the problem, and you won't be the last as long as there are dogs on this earth. And Lord knows, you're sure not the first person to make mistakes.

 

Turn your computer off and take a few days to try and relax. I'll keep you in my thoughts.

[Journey]

Do any of you realize how difficult it is to admit to yourself that a dog you have had since 7 weeks old, a dog you have spent almost ALL day with, EVERY day, a dog you have bonded with so deeply that it feels like your soul is being ripped from you as you see the car drive away that has him in it... Do ANY of you realize how hard it is to admit to yourself that your DOG deserves better than YOU?

 

 

Autumn

 

Yes Autumn, I do. It's very creepy to me to read what is happening with you and Ghost.

 

My first Border Collie, bought from a "big hat" (well supposedly one) back in 1991 - I had the pup, picked him from the litter at 7 weeks. At 10 months I did take him back to the breeder. However, in the time between, I trained him, socialized him, did everything. And the only thing he had not tried to bite was me. It was coming, I could see it. I simply was lucky on all fronts that he had not connected with other dogs or people. I had also had him neutered, and I paid for surgery on his right shoulder - OCD surgery. Quite frankly the dog simply wasn't right. Now, said breeder simply turned around and passed him off to another farmer, who promptly returned him. He was then sold (for the 3rd time the breeder was paid for this pup...) and this family tied him up on the farm. As their 8 year old son was running by the pup nailed him in the face. They took him out back and shot him.

 

So, I have Zero tolerance for any dog that bites in most situations. And had I known then and had the guts back then I would have done the right thing and put him down. I didn't and a child suffered. I don't blame myself, if anything I blame the breeder, but I too was wrong for not putting him down. Too much emotion involved at the time.

 

You're not the only one this has ever happened too and you won't be the last. You however have asked for help. Sometimes life sucks.

 

Glad you did see the Dr. about the injury.

 

Karen

[elementbcs]

There are some really good posts here with a lot of excellent information... I am looking forward to watching this thread develop further...

[Lenajo]

I don't think this is about fault. (there is some, but that's reality...you live and learn, we all do)

 

There are many, many dogs out there raised in far more haphazard fashion than any of us would dream of, that would never, ever, bite a human.

 

As I said before you socialize and train to hedge your bet on good genetics. At best you can bury the genetic tendancies as deep as possible.

 

You will not change them.

 

This was not a "puppy" mistake. He threatened, he followed through. He caused serious damage. I find that very difficult to forgive. I find it virtually impossible to consider rehome. Having seen the damage a dog can do I have low tolerance for a dog that bites on purpose for reasons other than being deliberately and painfully harmed by a human.

 

I've held dogs in the clinic at a tech (eons ago) that had limbs ripped partially off from cars who wouldn't bite anyone despite how they suffered during the initial exam. I've seen my own boy clamp his jaw and turn his head away to avoid even considering nipping me while I cleaned an absess on his leg.

 

And I've seen, not so long ago, a child's face after the family pet ripped it off because she picked up a fallen fork off the floor. The parents were more than horrified - not only by the fact that the dog did that, but that the dog was licking and crying about the girl's distress the moment the fork clattered out of the way.

 

It wasn't a bad dog. It was a good dog, that had a "little problem".

 

Some dogs have a screw loose. Period.

 

I still stand by insisting the breeder take him back. Jodi may be comfortably in passing the buck to you as owenr, and that's typical of a lot of people. My stand is that until people insist breeders both produce and place/sell with ethics and good policies then nothing will change for the better. The breeder had an option when they got to know you, and when they evaluated the litter temperament, to say no. There was no question you were buying first a *pet*. She didn't say no. That means she was satisfied both with what she produced,and your ability to handle it. She was wrong - now the ball is in her court imo.