dog biting other dog

[Lenajo]

I wouldn't live in a split household either. That said *based on the infomation here* I'd have the Husky/Shep put down. One fight was forgivable, then you manage to the nines.. 2 fights with major injury and she's history. Resource guarder, no bite inhibition with other dogs..... The risk is too great.

 

No, I wouldn't rehome her off with anyone else either, because I assure you nobody who hasn't lived this will take it seriously (and without taking this seriously its only a matter of time until she kills a dog), and nobody who has lived it would willingly take on another dog like this. Not to mention that you could be held liabel for any damage the dog does even if you give full disclosure.

 

It's not a nice situation and you have my sympathies. My opinions seem harsh but I assure you they come from being in a similar situation. If you want to live in a split household more power to you, but remember it's 100%. Anything less is a loaded gun pointed at the BC's head. Nobody, man or dog, should have to live that kind of stress.

[Cool Dave]

Well I stand corrected! Didn't mean to cause any undue panic But I will say years ago I just happend to have direct experience with just situation. Well, friends dog, but the issue was his GSD would rip apart (multiple stiches needed) the poodle across the street when ever he got the chance. Dingo (the GSD) otherwise seemed as the perfect dog, people friendly, cat friendly (9 in the houssehold), and appeared friendly to all other dogs. Who knows why, but a year or so after the last agreesive attack on the poodle, Dingo bit a stranger that came to the door. I'll just say shortly afterwards Dingo was no longer a part of the family.

[Lenajo]

CoolDave there is rarely a true "out of the blue" attack from a dog to human or other animal. Only sociopaths (born or made) give no warning. Most dogs have warned, and warned, and warned their intentions but nobody was listening.

[Laurae]

Marm,

I posted what I did because frankly you don't (or at least you didn't) seem to be taking this very seriously. When I read your initial post, I had a hard time believing you were going to put these two dogs outside together alone and then leave the house to run errands after the first fight (especially so soon after). Then, you seemed to dismiss the suggestions to keep your dogs separated because you don't want to crate train them, despite the lengths you said your border collie was going to to stay away from your shepherd. It definitely seems to me as though you were not grasping the seriousness of the situation as you presented it. For your border collie's sake, I hope that's not the case.

[PSmitty]

the bc has been on the end of fights before where she's been puncture wounded, but never anything to this level.

 

I think it bears repeating that these last two ugly fights weren't the first (or second). Unfortunately, protective measures weren't taken before, and now it's getting more and more serious. You cannot leave these two alone, and I don't care how much of a pain it might be to manage the separation.

[1sheepdoggal]

I wouldnt, nor would I expect anyone else to, human or dog to have to live in and try to manage a situation such as yours. Been there done that. AND have had a dog killed because of an aggressive dog. Aggressive to only this one particular dog. The first attack was bad, the survivor lost an eye, and suffered a broken jaw and a few broken ribs, and the entire top bone in his nose was removed, you could see down into his nasal cavity. It was a puppy, 4 months old at the time, not a dog that was threatening or posturing or making any threatening overtures towards the other dog. The second attack, 4 months later, the dog was killed. We were doing the seperate crating, seperate outside time. Seperate inside time. All that has been suggested. Bottom line, was that while one dog was outside, and the other was inside, some one, in a hurry, not paying attention, while coming in the house, carrying grocries in, didnt close the door all the way. Enter mean dog waiting for opportunity. Right through the door, and kills unsuspecting dog who thought he was safe. No matter how diligent you try to be, there is always going to be an emergency, a person in a hurry, some one forgets, doesnt pay attention. Life, simply goes on and returns to some semblance of normalcy and time allows gaurds to be let down, and diligence to wane in the absence of problems. I know, I, lived it. I watched it happen, and I know how it happens and why. Had I simply done what I thought best in the first place, instead of listening to bleeding hearts, that poor unsuspecting dog who trusted us to keep him safe, would be alive (albiet rather old) right now. I dont feel that this was an islolated case, I dont feel that it was a rare occurence in house holds that have a problem where one dog truely wants to do the other dog harm. Where theres a will, theres a way. I cant tell you how to handle this situation, that will have to be your decision. I would ask however, that you take into consideration the question of whether you really can control everyone and what they do and dont do, every situation, every mineut of every day. Guests, children, family. Are you going to put a neon sign over every door in the house to remind or warn everyone that comes and goes for the rest of your dogs lives? Perhaps that sounds a bit dramatic, and maybe it is. I just want to try to bring home to you that no matter how dilligent you try to be, want to be, think you can/will be. Until one or the other is gone. The victum is never really going to be safe.

[stockdogranch]

Darci's right about vigilance, not just yours, but that of others, too. The last time the two males I mentioned got into it, it was because the ex's visiting mother forgot to close a door, and she KNEW the rules and the dangers. Then she got pissed at me for yelling obscenities in the heat of trying to pull the two dogs apart.

 

I agree with Lenajo on this. If you rehome the BC, you are still stuck with a dog aggressive dog. Been there, done that, wouldn't /won't do it again.

 

A

[ShoresDog]

Is there some reason the dogs don't have crates, or that you are unwilling to use crates?

 

Crates are great -- they are the dogs' dens -- and you really need a way to manage them separately. I see no reason why any dog who isn't 100% trustworthy in every way should have the run of the house, at will, ever.

[Boon]

I honestly think you know what you need to do, so the only real question you have to ask yourself is: “who is going?” and “who is staying?”! After everything I have read in this post any other route you take is really just postponing the inevitable. Having canine companions shouldn’t be so stressful for you or for them

Good Luck

[marm]

Is there some reason the dogs don't have crates, or that you are unwilling to use crates?

 

Crates are great -- they are the dogs' dens -- and you really need a way to manage them separately. I see no reason why any dog who isn't 100% trustworthy in every way should have the run of the house, at will, ever.

 

we have not had much success in using crates.

 

our old dog, a chow/australian kelpie mix was crated when we got her at age 10 months. over a period of months, we had it cabled to a 150 lb desk, and in her frantic-ness she dragged said desk CLEAR ACROSS a basement. she howled, shat, pissed, barfed- consistently in her crate. once she had free rein to roam in the house, those behaviours stopped. we had her until 8/8/05.

 

the husky/shepherd was placed in a crate. she too did almost the same thing, and we got her at 12 weeks.

 

we didn't even try on the bc.

 

we have established some gating since everyone got home this afternoon. both dogs are confused and sad, missing the other one. we are going to do everything in our power to make the home situation safe for our bc AND our husky/shepherd. i have spoken with the vet about the husky/shepherd's behaviour and perhaps a medical reason for it. her analysis is that there is some jealousy going on. the person who posted a while back about there being a household dynamic shift might have the crux of the matter (see my very first posting explaining the household changes in a months time)- we are hopefully going to create a calmer environment where both dogs feel safe and can be in this house for a long time.

 

rehoming- not in the cards for either dog at this point. i know there are plenty of you out there who are advocating this. my heart is just not into that. those of you who want to attack my feelings, be aware things are very raw right now. this is not a situation we choose to address at this time. these girls are part of our family, and as such, we will work with them to make sure the family unit is safe. as my daughter is insisting i say here, if your child got into a fight, would you give that child away? we all know people who have had children cause a GREAT deal of harm, yet they stand by their kid, staunchly.

 

everyone- thank you for your suggestions, comments, examples, encouragement, sympathy and support.

 

will post an update once things are <hopefully> calmer.

 

~marm

[bcpon]

I'll add my experience as well. I used to have 2 lhasas, mother and daughter. When the daughter turned 3, she started attacking her mother. There didn't have to be toys present, food, household activity, etc. going on. Her mother could be under a table sleeping and her daughter, 15 feet away, would run over and jump her. The daughter was trying to kill her mother. We tried to manage the situation. They were always supervised, crated when we left them, both were spayed, both were tested for thyroid, both did obedience, etc. Heck, I even contacted an animal communicator. All would be quiet for months and we would let down our guard a bit, then another attack. These attacks were very bloody and resulted in multiple punctures, torn ears, etc. I would work on keeping them separate but always felt bad for the one dog that was put up. The other dogs in the house (2 bcs and a papillon) were never involved in the fights but were very stressed. All it would take was for a door to be left open, someone to forget that mom was loose inside when they let daughter in from the outside. I can remember spending HOURS working with the daughter. I let this situation continue for about 3-4 years before things really started to go downhill. The daughter started getting snippy with other dogs in the house and snapped at my mother. I didn't feel comfortable rehoming the daughter because I couldn't feel 100% sure that she was only going to be aggressive with her mother and couldn't take the chance that someone else might get hurt. I adored both of these dogs. Finally, one night I was in the laundryroom with the mother and the daughter was on the other side of the babygate. My husband brought in some laundry and the daughter slipped in, and another fight broke out. This time the daughter was the one injured when her mother got one of her eyes. We went to the ER, and after an hour of absolute hysterics on my part, and lots of discussion with the vets, I decided to have the daughter put down. She was only 7 years old. On the drive home I felt horrible...like I'd failed her and my other dogs. I went into the house and was struck by how peaceful it was. Yes, even with two bcs, one papillon and one elderly cranky lhasa, everyone was happy. For the 1st time all the dogs could be out all the time. I could give them bones and not worry. I could give them attention and no one took offense...heck, we could watch tv with dogs sleeping around us and all remained calm. My old lhasa girl lived out her remaining in peace and quiet. She was a very happy dog and became more outgoing with every passing day. I miss her daughter a great deal, but realize I had no other choice. I decided then and there that I could put up with a mulitude of issues in my pack, but I would never put up with this kind of aggression again. It wasn't until it was over that I realized how miserable it had been.

 

I'm not telling this long tale (sorry about the length) to say your situation will end like mine. I hope it doesn't. But you really don't want to let it go on for as long as I did. Like I said, I wasn't aware of how bad it had been until it was over. From your posts it seems like you are taking it seriously, and I know the 1st reaction is I can fix this. Perhaps you can. Dogs are all different. But again, don't let a situation drag out...it's not fair to the humans or the dogs. I loved the daughter with all of my heart, but I know I was responsible for putting her mother through hell for 3 or 4 years....and for that, I am SO sorry. No dog deserves to go through life afraid.

 

I truly do sympathize with you.

[MrSnappy]

both dogs are confused and sad, missing the other one.

 

It would be really wise to not project your emotions on to your dog right now. The dog who is being attacked I ASSURE you is not "sad" and the dog who is attacking is also not "sad" - confused, sure. Sad? Very unlikely.

 

we are going to do everything in our power to make the home situation safe for our bc AND our husky/shepherd.

 

Best of luck with that. Wiser people than me have suggested an error can and will be deadly.

 

 

as my daughter is insisting i say here, if your child got into a fight, would you give that child away?

 

Dogs are not children. Your child may not be able to grasp that concept, but you really should.

 

I wish you the best, because I am sure this sucks for you. But I sure wouldn't want to be your border collie and be forced to live in a household where someone was trying to kill me. If you think the BC is not hyper aware of this, you're dead wrong.

 

Best

 

RDM

[Maralynn]

You really need to reintroduce the crate. Your shep/husky has shown you without a shadow of a doubt that she could kill your BC. It may be difficult, but the results of of another attack on the BC would be much harder.

 

I would also put the shep/husky on a strictly regulated scheldule and NILIF.

 

 

as my daughter is insisting i say here, if your child got into a fight, would you give that child away? we all know people who have had children cause a GREAT deal of harm, yet they stand by their kid, staunchly.

 

Though I think you're way off base in your analogy, if my child intentionally did that type of damage to another family member, they'd be in jail or a mental institution. We're not just talking scuffle here or dogs that posturing for rank. We're talking about a dog who for no apparrent reason is tearing into another dog and sending her to the ER.

 

Yes there could be a medical issue and it is well worth checking out (low thyroid for one can do weird things). But in the meantime you need to be very well aware that your BC will probably never be safe with the other dog around.

[nancy]

Come off it. The BC cannot be "missing" the shepherd when they are gated apart as she has to sneak around the house when they are not. Which you seem to find amusing. Probably, the shepherd is sad because she cannot attack the BC.

 

You have let this shepherd repeatedly attack the BC. You find it amusing that the BC has to hide from the shepherd. You think it's OK to kennel together an attacker and a victim. And you want to make the home "safe for our bc AND our husky/shepherd"?

 

Safe for the husky/shepherd who has repeatedly taken pieces out of the BC?

 

As you don't seem to want to hear what anyone has said - protect the poor victim - just what do you want to hear?

 

I know how high a baby gate is. I wouldn't trust the shepherd for a minute. She can walk over any gate if she really wants to do so. Unless you raise it so high that she can go under it.

 

If one of my children "caused a great deal of harm" I would stand by that child but definitely separate that child from anyone he or she could hurt in any way. In fact, I did just that. I did not allow her - or give her any chance to - continue her destructive behavior. I stood by her by intervening in her destructive behavior. And it sure worked. She turned into a great adult. And a great friend.

 

That was my job as a parent. And you know that that is your job as a pet owner. So do it.

[kajarrel]

My heart is just not into that.

 

You must be distraught. However, I think the question you need to (must) ask is, "what's best for the dogs?" Is it best for the dogs to stay in your household together where, according to you 1) you can't crate, 2) it's difficult to keep the dogs apart and 3) two serious fights have occurred, despite your efforts to oversee the dogs' behaviors? Now consider each of the alternatives . . .

 

(Gently.) Really, think about this . . . is it the dogs you're thinking about right now?

 

Kim

[mbc1963]

rehoming- not in the cards for either dog at this point. i know there are plenty of you out there who are advocating this. my heart is just not into that. those of you who want to attack my feelings, be aware things are very raw right now. this is not a situation we choose to address at this time. these girls are part of our family, and as such, we will work with them to make sure the family unit is safe. as my daughter is insisting i say here, if your child got into a fight, would you give that child away? we all know people who have had children cause a GREAT deal of harm, yet they stand by their kid, staunchly.

 

~marm[/font]

 

Marm, absolutely this is a horrible situation, and your feelings are intense and raw at this point. You swing from love to shock to sadness, while people in this forum who don't love your dogs and aren't rubbed raw type lots of cool-headed logic. It's bound to be like salt on a wound right now, with the way you're feeling and the conflicting emotions you have. I can empathize.

 

But...

 

The fact that people giving advice in here don't have your immediate sadness and confusion about your dogs' dynamics almost certainly makes their advice more trustworthy than your emotions are right now. Especially the advice from people who are sharing their past experience with exactly this situation.

 

I had a friend who had numerous dogs. The biggest, an Akita mix, was frequently getting into fights with the next-largest. Definitely, household stresses had something to do with it. The night before his wedding, when there were guests and noises and chaos, my friend had to break up a dog fight, and ended up with a terrible wound in his arm when the Akita misdirected his aggression. He got married with stitches and bandages, doped up on demerol. About a month after the honeymoon, he had to make the difficult decision to put the Akita down. He and his wife just couldn't live in a house that threatened violence all the time. Delaying the decision was a good move: the night before the wedding was simply no time to think clearly about this. But there was really only one "right" decision, for the sake of the other dogs and the human family.

 

As far as the "child" analogy, I think this goes several steps beyond a child having a fight. A fight between children typically involves slapping and punching, not gunshots and knife wounds. A fight between dogs typically involves snarling, spitting, and posturing, and maybe an incidental puncture wound to an ear or nose - not ripping out chunks of flesh.

 

I am trying to imagine how it would feel to live in a house with a sibling who had twice attacked me with a knife, and who was just waiting to attack me again. I would hope that my parents would step up and remove this sibling before he was allowed to cause further harm. Leaving a dangerous child in a situation to harm another child is not good for the dangerous one OR his victim. Sometimes love completely clouds judgment, and sometimes parental choices made out of love-blindness cause great harm to one or more children.

 

Now, a dog doesn't have the intellectual power to blame you for what the other dog does, or carry resentment about how you handle this situation. But neither does she have the capacity to intellectualize, "Oh, it's OK. Those humans are never going to let the husky/shepherd in the same room as me, so I can just relax." She can't know that you're taking precautions, so she creeps around the house waiting for the next attack.

 

Furthermore, the only way she can learn about the world is by direct experience. She's been attacked and wounded twice in a few weeks. Her direct experience teaches her that there is no protection from these attacks. Life is so short - what a terribly fearful way to spend it!

 

This is going to seem really harsh, but try to imagine that it was a neighbor's dog who had attacked your beloved BC twice in one month. You would be beyond furious. You'd call animal control and probably a lawyer. You'd dump full responsibility on the owner of the attacking dog - after all, she should have known after the first attack that she owned a vicious dog, and yet she allowed it to have access to your innocent dog yet again! You'd probably expect the vicious dog to be euthanized. If that didn't happen, you'd call animal control and demand that at the very least the owner never again allow her dog near other dogs.

 

I think you owe it to your BC (and other dogs) to treat this as seriously as you would treat it if it were a stranger's dog doing the damage. The situation has the same chance of a very bad outcome - but sadly, all the blame and responsibility will fall on you instead of a stranger.

 

It seems as though you've been put in a terrible place where the only right decision is going to be very hard, and likely very sad.

 

Mary

[flrpwr52]

Two of my three bitches started going at each other. It was all over toys and my husband. The one that was the aggressor is the youngest and going after the oldest, 1 1/2 and 3 1/2 years.

 

Fights never happen unless my hubby is home so when he is here the youngest wears a soft basket muzzle. This Saturday we are having a home visit with a behaviorist to sort things out.

 

We have never had any injuries and I'm not willing to take the chance that it could happen.

 

I do know how unsettling it can be and I also know there are things that can be done to stop the fights. It may take a little more time each day to make sure all the dogs will be safe but isn't it worth it?

[Chaser]

Hi There!

 

I joined this Board in order to get help for my very unruly BC (2nd BC but totally different to my first). Imust say that I received help from all quarters, but something still niggled in my mind. I then got a tip to read the book:

The Dog Listener by Jan Fennell

You have NO IDEA how this book changed my life, my dog's life and our life together in the world out there.

Maybe you've heard about the book/author and maybe not. If not, I truly hope you'll make the effort to get it and read it from front to back.

It is very important that you realise you cannot go to the index of this book and look for your specific problem too read about it and get it solved. It doesn't work that way. Read it from beginning to end and start doing what the author says. I know you'll think:"But this has NOTHING to do with my problem!"

STOP right there - I promise you it DOES and it WILL help and work. You must however give 100% and your entire family will have to work along with you.

I saw a positive change within 1 DAY from starting and have had further positive results with extreme dominance problems etc within 2 weeks.

Please, please, please get the book and read it. It WILL change your life and that of your beloved four legged friends forever.

 

Please let me know how it went.

 

Regards

 

Chaser

(Cape Town, SA)

 

thanks in advance for patience- this is apt to be a bit long.

 

some house set up first:

 

normal household: 3 adults, 2 dogs (below), 1 cat

household from mid june to mid july: 5 adults, 1 toddler, 4 dogs, 1 cat

on 6/28-29/08, about 2 am, our husky/shepherd (arwen, age 6) and our bc (mabel,age 2.5 and my avatar) got into it over some food that was left out. the bc was on the losing end, needing to make a run in the morning to the emergency vet clinic to have a huge chunk of her left shoulder and muscle wall put back together, along with treatment for puncture wounds, all done by the husky/shepherd. the bc has been on the end of fights before where she's been puncture wounded, but never anything to this level.

 

following the surgery, pain meds, antibiotics etc...suture removal was a little over a week ago. she's been fine since the day after the surgery, or about 36 hours after the incident. she's been giving the big dog a WIDE berth when playing etc... which seems perfectly logical to us. we thought the aggravating factor in this was the increased stress in the household from the additional people and dogs.

 

our house is back to "normal" now since the other 2 adults, toddler and 2 dogs left early last week.

 

about an hour ago, i put both girls (yes, same gender) on their runs so they could have outside time so i could run errands. i no sooner put them out and headed to another part of the house when i heard yelping and screaming from the backyard. i ran to see what happened, only to find the bc AGAIN a victim of the husky/shepherd.

 

i have just returned from the vet (thank god not having an emergency clinic run this time) where i left my bc so she could be sutured up on the inside of her leg where a chunk of flesh is now missing. there are several puncture wounds on the outside of her leg (same leg as the earlier attack). the vet says the puncture wounds just need to stay clean. we'll get homegoing instructions in about 2 hours when i can go pick her up.

 

the problem now: what do we do about the husky/shepherd who is obviously showing her dominance and aggression in a manner she has never done before? as i stated, they got into it a couple of times before when playing mostly, but NEVER to this level, and to have it happen twice w/in a 3 week time period is uncalled for. this was not over food as they don't get fed but once per day, and that's in the evening.

 

our trainer never saw the husky/shepherd, only the bc, and she's now "retired" as the petsmart store she worked out of has closed. i'm thinking of asking the vet to see if prozac or something along those lines might be appropriate protoccol for the husky/shepherd.

 

looking for some suggestions/answers!

 

~marm

[Debbie Meier]

Marm,

 

You mentioned that you have not had good expirences with crates, when a person goes from not using a crate to using one they have to be 100% commitmented to making it work. If you waiver your dog will know it a try harder to find ways to get you to free them. There is a code of conduct to be enforced when the dog is in the crate, barking, clawing the sides, biting the grate, rocking it is all unacceptable and in the case of an older dog I treat it as aggression. Simular to what a person would do if they sent their child to their room, yes the room is a safe place, but only safe if they behaive properly, you don't accept drawing on the walls, punching holes or throwing and breaking stuff when the child wants out. Puppies I just ignore, they need to be treated like a baby, if everytime the baby cries you run to it, eventually they learn that they get to do what want outside the playpen, so with a pup I leave them crated until they are quiet, if they fall asleep, I leave them a bit, when they stir I will let them out before they begin to make noise. I recently crate broke a 3 year old male that had never been crated, he had a fit, or rather wanted to have a fit. I put him in a plastic crate, a little smaller then I wanted to keep him in regularly and everytime he went to having a fit I made his life miserable, at first I ignored him when he barked, but when the bark esculated to clawing and rocking I created a violent earthquake. Eventually I had to take the barking away, it took time, but now he looks to his crate as his safe place and goes in on his own. If you can't find Bandit, look in his crate. This past weekend he went to his first trial, he was quiet as a mouse all the way there and home, quite happy to rest in his crate after working his sheep.

 

I hold the same level of requirement when the dogs are out in the their kennel runs, barking excessively is unacceptable, running the fence to self stimulate themselves is unacceptable, digging, weaving, jumping on the gate all unacceptable, they are welcome to play quietly and nicely.

 

I am going ro the effort to type this because it is the next problem you will be dealing with if you decide that you are going to keep both of your dogs. Don't let the dogs aggression in the crate esculate to the point of the crate being slid acrossed the basement floor, your past dog did it because he/she thought or knew he could. Stopping the behaivor does not include letting the dog out, but by making the dog uncomfortable enough that he abandons that behaivor, stop the behaivors at their first manifestation takes way less effort and gives greater success, ignoring the behaivor allows esculation and will require greater effort and committment to get change. This holds true not only in crate breaking by every aspect of behaivor development.

 

Deb

[marm]

Hi There!

 

I joined this Board in order to get help for my very unruly BC (2nd BC but totally different to my first). Imust say that I received help from all quarters, but something still niggled in my mind. I then got a tip to read the book:

The Dog Listener by Jan Fennell

You have NO IDEA how this book changed my life, my dog's life and our life together in the world out there.

Maybe you've heard about the book/author and maybe not. If not, I truly hope you'll make the effort to get it and read it from front to back.

It is very important that you realise you cannot go to the index of this book and look for your specific problem too read about it and get it solved. It doesn't work that way. Read it from beginning to end and start doing what the author says. I know you'll think:"But this has NOTHING to do with my problem!"

STOP right there - I promise you it DOES and it WILL help and work. You must however give 100% and your entire family will have to work along with you.

I saw a positive change within 1 DAY from starting and have had further positive results with extreme dominance problems etc within 2 weeks.

Please, please, please get the book and read it. It WILL change your life and that of your beloved four legged friends forever.

 

Please let me know how it went.

 

Regards

 

Chaser

(Cape Town, SA)

 

chaser,

 

thank you for that suggestion. i have gone to the online library site and reserved a copy of this book. this particular author actually has written 4 different books on dogs and behaviours, so i will likely read several of the others before all is said and done.

 

flrpwr52,

 

thank you for the suggestion of a soft muzzle. yours was the first to come up with something like that as well. we will attempt to purchase one in the next day or so.

 

all,

 

baby gates are working fine in our house. the girls have ALWAYS respected the gates and never tried to push past them. yes, the husky/shepherd COULD if so inclined jump a gate, but she doesn't and hasn't, jumped anything in the almost 7 years of her life. the bc could jump if desired, but for some reason has an extreme fear of a baby gate, so gives them VERY wide berth. both girls had a very quiet nite, and it appears actually enjoyed being separated out and having their own space. we are going to have a very fast steep learning curve here, so thank you in advance for those who are positive and encouraging in our efforts.

 

will update periodically,

 

~marm

[kaos]

Hi

 

I know how raw your feeling. My girls started battling when they were well over 4 and had lived together up till that point. Hind sight shows that yes there were signs and had we been more knowledgeable we may have been able to step in before the escalation... or it may have escalated regardless.

 

Do a search on my user name and interdog aggression and you can read about our issues. It may help to give you some perspective and see how we have dealt with it.

 

Sara

[Lenajo]

as my daughter is insisting i say here, if your child got into a fight, would you give that child away?

 

If your child pulled a knife on your other child, not once, but TWICE, and caused extensive and intential harm resulting in multiple sutures and hospitalizations I'd sure as heck do the human version of "give her away". Her "give away" would be an institution where she got the help and the structure *I was obviously not giving* to KEEP BOTH HER AND MY OTHER CHILD SAFE.

 

And I would tell her flat out she was Da*n lucky she wasn't a dog.

[Kyrasmom]

Hi Marm,

 

I can safely say that I know exactly what you are feeling and how it feels to be told that a dog should be rehomed when you know that it's not going to be possible. We are who we are...and sometimes we're just not strong enough to do the right thing. I have a dog who should be rehomed and it's just not going to happen. But in knowing this, and accepting this, I control his environment and make no excuses or exceptions.

 

Please Please Please consider a crate. Baby gates will not be enough if your 6 year old is triggered. And it will happen, please do not convince yourself that it won't. And the crate does not necessarily need to be for your mix if she's completely unwilling to be in it. Your BC on the other hand may find total security and happiness in it. When I first crated my problem child, he pouted, he cried, he scratched, he broke my heart. But he has since come to terms with the fact that he's completely safe in it, it's big and roomy, he can eat and not have to look over his shoulder, he can sleep in all his many contortions, and he can be a part of our family as we all watch TV at night. Now he pops into it with glee and I know he is grateful to have a safe haven to hang out in IN the house with other dogs.

 

And in my case, my problem child is both the trouble maker and the victim, he starts the crap, and then loses the fight. So, if you want amusing in a caustic kind of way, there you have it.

 

Work with a behaviorist, check for medical issues, but do not let your emotions dictate what your dogs will or will not like. If you keep both dogs, it's your responsibility to keep them safe. I suspect that the aggression also has something to do with the coming of age of your BC and it may, or may NOT, go away as you get over the 3 year old hump as I call it. But you need to control it and not let your guard down. A behaviorist will also have other tools and techniques which may initially also hurt you emotionally but you need to put emotions aside and do what is best for your dogs because in doing this you get to KEEP them.

 

Is it easy? NO, it's not. And if you're not willing/able to put emotions aside, then nothing anyone is going to say is going to be helpful to you. Dogs are not kids even though we love them as much, and for all you know, the "victim" may be the actual trouble maker unless you're very adept at reading their signals. I've learned so much about my dogs that I can feel it on my skin when I need to be uber-vigilant....and still I control their environment.

 

Best of luck...I know how raw you feel and I can assure you that everyone here only cares about the well-being of your girls.

Maria

[MaggieDog]

Just an fyi: please do not leave a dog in a soft "grooming style" muzzle for more than 10 - 20 mins in a climate controlled setting; those style of muzzles will restrict panting (and thus reduce the ability to cool down) and prevent the dog from drinking, both deadly in warm conditions. In addition, dogs *can* still nip thru a soft grooming muzzle; my dog did when she went after her nemesis.

 

Basket muzzles are wire or plastic muzzles that allow for panting, drinking, eating, etc. and are better for long term use, but still should not be thought of a completely safe in dog-dog altercations - a muzzled dog can still muzzle punch or whip the dog at the receiving end of their attentions and they are still rehearsing the behavior you're trying to avoid at all costs - practice makes perfect! I've also heard of dogs slipping muzzles of various types off, so that's something else to keep in mind.

[Debbie Meier]

I've also heard of dogs slipping muzzles of various types off, so that's something else to keep in mind.

 

I forgot about that, I saw a really ticked off dog rip a wire basket muzzle off, they thought he would never slip it, he was so mad, by the time he tore it off he was even more enraged, totally came unglued. This dog would flip himself and throw himself on the ground trying to get the muzzle off when he wanted to attack. Looked very simular to a wild bronc trying to get rid of the saddle.

 

Deb