dog biting other dog

[marm]

thank you! we have never muzzled a dog, so trying to figure out how she would obtain water was a question we did have. it is hot and humid here, so that is obviously not a good solution.

 

will keep on trying to redo things around here to make everthing safe for everyone.

 

Just an fyi: please do not leave a dog in a soft "grooming style" muzzle for more than 10 - 20 mins in a climate controlled setting; those style of muzzles will restrict panting (and thus reduce the ability to cool down) and prevent the dog from drinking, both deadly in warm conditions. In addition, dogs *can* still nip thru a soft grooming muzzle; my dog did when she went after her nemesis.

 

Basket muzzles are wire or plastic muzzles that allow for panting, drinking, eating, etc. and are better for long term use, but still should not be thought of a completely safe in dog-dog altercations - a muzzled dog can still muzzle punch or whip the dog at the receiving end of their attentions and they are still rehearsing the behavior you're trying to avoid at all costs - practice makes perfect! I've also heard of dogs slipping muzzles of various types off, so that's something else to keep in mind.

[JaderBug]

I forgot about that, I saw a really ticked off dog rip a wire basket muzzle off, they thought he would never slip it, he was so mad, by the time he tore it off he was even more enraged, totally came unglued. This dog would flip himself and throw himself on the ground trying to get the muzzle off when he wanted to attack. Looked very simular to a wild bronc trying to get rid of the saddle.

 

Deb

 

 

holy crap... I think I'd be running for the hills!! If he was that aggressive, what happened to him??

[Debbie Meier]

holy crap... I think I'd be running for the hills!! If he was that aggressive, what happened to him??

 

He's a lucky dog, we took the time to determine that his bite and agression was due to learning that he never had to give to people, but he did have bite inhabition with other dogs, so we knew that there was a chance that he could be retrained. We had to make a muzzle that he could not slip for our safety and lean on him until he gave, it was either that, never require anything of him but be a pet, or have him euthenized. He turned into a really nice working dog when it was said and done, he works for a living with an owner that understands that he has to be sure to always be alpha and make sure that he never displays aggression toward people in any shape or form. There are more dogs out there then people realize that are capable of being that way, they just have never put an high enough requirment on them to bring it out or they back down when things get hot teaching the dog that he can rule. This particular dog always won at tug o war and then would shred the tug when he finally got it away from you, he would shred sticks rather then bring them back to you. His old owner thought it was fun when he would chase the broom and then shred it, he would attack the water coming out of the garden hose, he was taught and allowed to play aggressively, any requirement ended in aggression. When he was working stock, if you wanted him to do something he did not want to he would either attack the sheep or he would pick up rocks, smash apples, tear up branches. At first we thought it was a drive problem but soon we realized that it was aggression being vented toward the handler.

 

Once we got it through his thick head that pressure via command or requirement meant to seek change rather then get aggressive a real nice talented dog emerged. It didn't take long before he took the easy route of compliance as opposed to fighting. BTW, this dog loved people, loved kids, got along with other dogs, was the model pet, until you tried to get him to do something he did not want to, then he would start to change, he would first nip at you, he learned that the nip would make people stop trying to get him to do what he did not want to. This dog was not born this way, he was made that way by people.

 

Deb

[flrpwr52]

This is the type of muzzle we use, sized to your dog of course. Kya has more than enough room to drink and breath. It is lightweight and flexible. She is never out with it on unless we are with her.

 

For us it is working until we see the behaviorist on Saturday.

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=250251857473

[Tassie]

Like so many others, I sympathize with the horrible situation you're in. Unlike some others, I do not have personal experience of your situation, but from what you have posted, and what I know about dogs and dog training, I would urge you as strongly as possible NOT to treat this as just a training issue.

 

Your older dog has twice demonstrated that she does not have bite inhibition with other dogs - at least with your poor BC girl. This is a serious and life-threatening issue, and IMHO not something that general training books like Jan Fennell's or Cesar Milan's can help enough with. I would urge you to consult a Board certified veterinary behaviorist as soon as possible. I know Melanie (Solo River) highly recommends Dr Karen Overall, who is widely respected in many countries, but you should be able to find some near you - there was a link to a list posted on the boards some time ago - maybe someone could link you to that.

 

I get that you feel a responsibility to both dogs - but IMHO, your primary responsibility here is to the victim - she deserves to be kept safe, and to know that she is safe.

 

(Mary (mbc1963) - that was a wonderful post.)

[afrancis]

(Mary (mbc1963) - that was a wonderful post.)

 

^^

Yeah, I wanted to say that too and did, in fact, write a post earlier saying this but my stupid finger deleted it before I posted

Ailsa

[Bo Peep]

I'm sorry, but I have to chime in with my 2 cents worth. First of all, Marm, I know you love both of your dogs. It is not a guarantee that your first dog will NOT be aggressive with another dog- maybe they just don't "mix" correctly. I've owned many dogs at one time. I have only had a couple problems.

 

Once, when a dog tried to move "up in the pack" with a smaller, yet older dog. This was NOT a happy situation. I could NEVER let these two dogs out at the same time. Luckily, I had indoor/outdoor kennels. They could not even be kenneled near each other- one at each end. The younger dog was the instigator. No blood was shed.

 

When I adopted Bailey- she is a one person dog. She brought on fights with many dogs and left Usher's ear bloodied. This was NOT good for a service dog. He would go to his crate and sulk. I would separate fights. Sometimes, I could see them coming with that glazed look in her eye or by her body reactions. Sometimes, it was out of the blue. I did not want to live my life with 2 dogs that I couldn't trust together.

 

My best thing was to train Bailey up and re-home her. I saved her life at the pound and that was my initial thing to do, yet I thought I would keep her. She is now serving a purpose as a hearing ear dog. What better job? But I told them- no other dogs!!!

 

I know you love both of your dogs, but maybe the best gift of love you can give them, is to separate them. I wish you all the best.

Dianne

[Shetlander]

I see the choices here as:

 

1. You make sure the dogs have completely separate lives 100% of the time, which is a hard way for all of you to live. Plus, nothing is 100% so the possibility of a serious, potentially deadly fight will continue.

 

2. You rehome one of the dogs. Given the mix's extreme aggression, as others have pointed out, the only real option here is to rehome the BC. You should never bring another animal into your house and you must take precautions for the rest of the mix's life that she is not around other animals.

 

3. Put down the mix.

 

Those are all hard choices. Years ago, I had to put down a dog with extreme aggression. It was heart breaking. At the same time, it was a relief to no longer worry that he was going to severely injure or kill my other animals. Or my nightmare scenario, that he'd somehow get lose, attack and kill someone else's pet and possibly accidentally injure someone trying to save their animal. Only after he was gone did I see what stress we had all lived under for too long. Sad as it is, some dogs are simply not wired right.

[Einstein]

I forgot about that, I saw a really ticked off dog rip a wire basket muzzle off, they thought he would never slip it, he was so mad, by the time he tore it off he was even more enraged, totally came unglued. This dog would flip himself and throw himself on the ground trying to get the muzzle off when he wanted to attack. Looked very simular to a wild bronc trying to get rid of the saddle.

 

Deb

 

 

Do not let your guard down even if you use a muzzle on one or both of them. My 14 yr old chow, has broken several muzzles. When he was 4 or 5 he started getting aggressive when the vet would examine him. He would greet everyone walking into the vet, and leaving the vet, but once the examination would begin he would start to snarl. I did not want anyone to get hurt, so we decided to use a muzzle during examinations. Man, that just set my dog off. Just as above he would do everything he could to get that muzzle off. After breaking them (or when I took them off) he would immediately calm down. My point I guess is that muzzles are not foolproof. Please use caution.

[bc4ever]

chaser,

 

baby gates are working fine in our house. the girls have ALWAYS respected the gates and never tried to push past them. yes, the husky/shepherd COULD if so inclined jump a gate, but she doesn't and hasn't, jumped anything in the almost 7 years of her life. the bc could jump if desired, but for some reason has an extreme fear of a baby gate, so gives them VERY wide berth. both girls had a very quiet nite, and it appears actually enjoyed being separated out and having their own space.

 

Sounds like the BC is living in fear of a lot of things! You seem surprised that your two dogs "actually enjoyed being separated out and having their own space." ??? Why? I'm sorry, but it seems to me that you're still not getting the message--these dogs don't want to live together! It's cruel to keep the BC living in that kind of threatening environment. You've asked for help here on this board, but I don't really think you want it. Lots of "Yeah, but..." going on. This can only end in tragedy. Get a grip. Sorry. Just my feelings.

[kcdawg]

wow talk about good timing i guess.

I finally get on the internet again, just days after my BC almost killed my Toy Poodle and then i read your post and all the replies. Saturday nite my big BC Wolfie attacked my little poodle so bad that he lost so much blood, he was stumbling he had a huge lump on his throat where one bite mark was. He couldnt shut his mouth for a couple days, i think he was in shock. I feel horrible, it was all my fault. I should of kept them apart knowing they are always growling at each other. People have told me to put my BC down or find a home for one or the other. Its not that easy. I sure know how you feel. I love both all my dogs equally and will not put Wolfie down! But yet i want to keep both. So, right now, my poodle is in my room behind a baby gate. At night he sleeps with me, just him. During the day he goes with me. They usually start fighting about food. The poodle will growl at look right at Wolfie even now after he was almost dead! Neither has learned anything from this, but i have. If i have to re home one of them, it may just come to that, sad as it is. For now, i will keep them apart and keep the poodle by my side, spoil him, pamper him, love him to death, because i was scared that he was going to die and i never thought Wolfie could do such a thing. I also use crates. Dont know what i would do without crates.

[JaderBug]

Neither has learned anything from this, but i have.

 

They're not children, they don't feel bad about beating each other within an inch of their lives!! How could they possibly learn something from this? If anything, the only one that learned anything was the poodle, and that it needs to stay the hell away from the BC... the BC certainly won't feel any sort of remorse for hurting the poodle, in Wolfie's mind, the poodle got in his/her way/space and that Wolfie did nothing wrong.

 

If you're still keeping both the dogs, there is always potential of this happening again (no matter what precautions you take), so apparently you didn't learn anything either.

[Angie H]

Saturday nite my big BC Wolfie attacked my little poodle so bad that he lost so much blood, he was stumbling he had a huge lump on his throat where one bite mark was. He couldnt shut his mouth for a couple days, i think he was in shock.

He lost so much blood he was stumbling and he couldn't shut his mouth for a couple of days?

 

Did you take him to the vet?

 

I should of kept them apart knowing they are always growling at each other. People have told me to put my BC down or find a home for one or the other. Its not that easy. I sure know how you feel. I love both all my dogs equally and will not put Wolfie down! But yet i want to keep both.

You are being selfish - you are risking the poodle's life for your own enjoyment. As much as I love all of my dogs, I would not risk my Shih Tzu's safety for any of them. Especially after a close call like you just had.

 

Do the right thing - re-home one of them so that they can both enjoy their lives.

[Jedismom]

Saturday nite my big BC Wolfie attacked my little poodle so bad that he lost so much blood, he was stumbling he had a huge lump on his throat where one bite mark was. He couldnt shut his mouth for a couple days, i think he was in shock. But yet i want to keep both.

 

I want I want want want want want....so is it all about you? If it's not, then are you saying that it is in your dog's best interest to live isolated or in a consistant state of tenseness, anger, or fear? This statement is particularly harsh for me to make. I don't like to lecture people, but this thread concerns me and makes me wonder just how many people are out there in this situation.

 

I love my dogs tremendously. Having said that, if anything like this ever happened to one of them, the victim would be immediately rehomed. Does this mean I don't really love them? Would this be difficult for me? It would be like losing one of my family.

[Laurae]

One of the reasons I have strong opinions on this topic is that I have a friend with one dog who hated her other dog, and they had serious fights every so often. She loved both of the dogs and thought she could never rehome either of them, especially the victim because she got him first and it didn't seem fair that he should have to go when he did nothing "wrong." (Now in the interest of full disclosure, two of my dogs don't like one another, but they do not actually try to hurt each other. Still, they are never left alone together.) Anyway, one day my friend and her two dogs were on a hike and ten feet in front of her, one dog attacked the other for no apparent reason (perhaps triggered prey drive was a factor; there was a 40-pound size difference between them) and killed him. It was the most awful thing my friend ever witnessed in her life. Had she rehomed the victim, he would still be alive today and my friend would not be living with an overwhelming sense of guilt over essentially allowing the death of her little buddy.

 

True love is putting your loved one's needs above your own wants.

[PSmitty]

Amen, Laura.

[Tranquilis]

True love is putting your loved one's needs above your own wants.

This bears repeating.

 

Well put.

[kcdawg]

Ya know what?? These ARE NOT your dogs so you dont know what you would do in MY SITUATION!

And i mean MY situaiton, not yours. I did say that i may have to re home one of them. read!!!

Its so easy for you to say to re home or to put down and blah blah blah. Put yourself in our place, oh wait

that wont work, your so cold hearted that you would get rid of one of the dogs. Dogs CAN be rehabilitated so this

doesnt happen again. Maybe we just dont want to take your easy way out. Maybe not only do we love both dogs, but the dogs love us too! I thought people cared about their dogs more than that. How shameful!

I want i want i want i want, yes!!!! I WANT both my dogs i want all my dogs!!! They will get along, because i am making changes, i dont just mean separating them either, that is not the way to fix this.

 

 

I didnt know our dogs werent children!! duh!!!!!!!!! Does anybody think before they type?

 

Neither dogs are afraid of each other, did you even read my first post??????????

I said they both start it, they each growl at each other, does that sound like fear???

And my poodle is NOT living his life now in a caged area, nor is my BC.

They are separted at feeding time only.

Im keeping all my dogs as of right now and if you dont like it then i dont care!

[Shetlander]

Neither dogs are afraid of each other, did you even read my first post??????????

I said they both start it, they each growl at each other, does that sound like fear???

And my poodle is NOT living his life now in a caged area, nor is my BC.

They are separted at feeding time only.

Im keeping all my dogs as of right now and if you dont like it then i dont care!

 

Even though food seems to be what sets off the fighting, please reconsider ever letting these two dogs loose together, even with you right there. The fight you describe sounds horrifying and could have easily resulted in the poodle's death. Next time may be the last time.

 

I have a friend who kept her dogs completely separated because one of them hated the other and would have fought about it to the death. She was willing to make that commitment but even with all her effort, there were still a couple of times where the dogs ended up in the same vicinity, fighting. The difference there is the dogs were both similar in size and in fact the aggressor was the smaller of the two. So there wasn't the same level of danger as in your household.

 

If your dogs are engaging in staring and growling at each other, I believe you have another potentially deadly fight waiting to happen. Again, please keep them as far apart from each other as possible, even if that means you have to spend less time with them than if they could coexist peacefully.

 

I understand you probably don't want to hear this, but I'm very worried about your poodle. He sounds so much like my Lhasas who simply don't modify their behavior despite painful consequences.

[JaderBug]

Wow, you don't even almost get it, do you?

 

Who wants to field this one? I don't even know where to begin...

 

First off, you're right. I wouldn't know what to do in your situation, it's a horrendously tough decision. But I wouldn't come in here looking for help, find a related thread, and then not take any of it to heart.

 

My reference about the children was to point out that your dogs can't 'learn' from a fight as you suggested they had. They can't comprehend their actions like a child can.

 

At the VERY least, please read Laurae's post again (and again, and again, and again). The consequences for your poodle could very easily be grave if you continue to ignore the fact that there is a problem here.

[bc4ever]

Ya know what?? These ARE NOT your dogs so you dont know what you would do in MY SITUATION!

Im keeping all my dogs as of right now and if you dont like it then i dont care!

 

Whoa. Breathe. This is obviously a very emotionally charged issue for you. The feedback you're getting is just our opinions. No one is attacking you. You came to this board for a reason. Now you don't like what you're reading. So, stop reading. We do care about our dogs, and we care about yours too, which is why you're getting so much advice. I sincerely hope that you are able to work things out for everyone involved.