Journey Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 Lately I have seen a tremendous increase in the "crazy" (not literally but) Border Collie posts here on the boards. Why? Is it because there are so many new members? Bad dogs? What? I have stayed away more or less recently as I don't have the patience of Julie P, Lenajo, Robin, RDM, etc.... If my dog has to play ball all day and demands it when I am home - I sure would require that he pay the mortgage as well Biting is just not allowed, tolerated or accepted; however, I don't place them in a situation where they should even feel the need to do so. Is it new ownership, new the the breed, what? Is it a lack of understanding on how to be a responsible owner, how to raise a pup or a Border Collie? I wonder why so many dogs simply appear to lack mental control (based on what is posted) and or simple manners? From some of what I have read lately (no, I am NOT pointing fingers to *anyone* just generalizing) many dogs rule the house, call the shots, have no mental control and lack manners. Then I see it excused due "fear" or blamed on the other dog or owner or posture? What gives? Are there really that many "weird" "mentally out of control" Border Collies out there or have I just been overloaded lately and didn't notice before? Hopefully *no one* takes offense to this post, it is not aimed at any one in particular, just in general. Karen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoofly Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 Good question Karen. I have some theories but i think i'll wait and see what others have to say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 Whatever the reason, TAG YOU'RE IT!! Now it's your turn to field those posts. I'm taking a little break Honestly I think the quality of the breed (the norm) is going down, as are the expectations of many of the new homes who want these dogs as pet. Working stockdogs of quality are still relatively easy to find, but the break between them and the show, sport, and backyard lines is widening at a cataclysmic rate. There are far too many people - owners, breeders, trainers, rescuers, k9 researchers, and speakers on dog training/behavior - who are fostering and even encouraging the idea of the neurotic Border Collie being the norm for the breed. As public perception changes, public expectation for the breed changes, and the breed changes. Not the working dogs (the norm there for now is somewhat set) but definately the pet market and sport dogs. I blame a portion of it on positive training gurus. People, especially those coming into pet and sport training in the last 10 years, have become afraid to adminster fair, constructive, and humane discipline. They are being taught that any discipline is abuse, and if they use it they have failed as trainers and owners. These people want to be "nice" and kind above all (another trend in our society) so if they can't train the dog with the PP methods then they are taught/encouraged to blame the breed, breeder, or the dogs mysterious past, for any failures. Or they are sent to many of the so called behaviorists (vet or non-vet) and encouraged to medicate the dog so that he will not destroy them, their home, or their neighbors. It's nice not to blame the dog...but otherwise nothing could be futher from the truth. There is nothing wrong with being positive either, or using medication on a dog with a true problem for which other options have failed. There is a problem when these things are used exclusivly to the detriment of the dog who really just has a life full of inconsistant structure and imbalanced training. We need to encourage people to get back to real life dogs again. Clear communication, clear requirements. Call them our babies, but treat them like dogs. Stop making excuses for bad behaviors and be responsible to the dog and to society in which we keep them. Respect them as a breed, but encourage them to be the best of it - not an examples of the worst because we can't face our own demons about the spankings we received as children. Accept neurosis as what it is - and FIX IT. Don't say "oh they all do it"...or blame their genetics when you haven't made the first effort to retrain and restructure the lifestyle that's the problem. Don't get mad the minute the people who have numerous examples of the best of the breed point out what you're doing wrong... a tremendous soapbox... I'll rest now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisK Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 I think this is one of those 'self fulfilling prophecies". I cannot tell you the number of people who say..."oh, you have Border Collies' they must keep you busy all the time". When I tell them, "no, they seem to be content to chill out' when I tell them to do so," these people act like I DON'T have Border Collies. I don't play on demand or let them 'herd' things, just because they are Border Collies. I know this is a rather simplistic answer to a complex question, but I do believe it's one of the reasons. I'll be interested to see what others have to say as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 Good question Karen. I have some theories but i think i'll wait and see what others have to say. chicken! Come on. I know you have opinions too. And good ones I bet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted January 31, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 Whatever the reason, TAG YOU'RE IT!! Now it's your turn to field those posts. I'm taking a little break No way...Eileen would throw me off the boards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janba Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 I don't know how it is in the US but here there is a general opinion in non working dog owners that BC are a hypo breed that requires a lot of excersise and that working BCs are not suitable pets. I have noticed that a lot of the dogs people complain about in Aus are pound rescues or pet shop dogs so there is no history of their breeding. I think a lot of the problems in this country stem from ANKC breeders who breed soley for conformation and not temperament and from the many backyard breeders who breed any two dogs together again with no thought as to temperament or bidability. A lot of these dogs end up in pounds and are labelled as hyperactive working BCs. I know from my own experience of owning ANKC show line dogs and pure working line dogs that the working dogs have a better off switch and are a joy to live with. Having said that Moss, the BC of little brain, who is pure show lines the best dog I have ever lived with as a pet. Temperament was important in his breeders breeding program. Before anyone jumps in and says that you should only be breeding for working ability temperament and things like bidability are an important factor, in my humble opinion, in a working dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdarling Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 If you look at puppyfind, you will see that it is just chock full of puppymills and very high volume producers, where you can buy a BC pup for anywhere from $50 to $1500. I have a very hard time blaming just the puppymills though. There are so many people out there that do not do their homework, and they go off half-cocked, and these high volume breeders see them coming from a mile away. And for a couple hundred dollars more, your puppy even comes with reproductive organs. And the buyers see nothing wrong with this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 Good point- temperament is crucial. A super working dog also needs a stable temperament. Biddability- to me, that is part and parcel of a good working dog. If you don't have biddability, you don't get very far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 If you look at puppyfind, you will see that it is just chock full of puppymills and very high volume producers, where you can buy a BC pup for anywhere from $50 to $1500. I have a very hard time blaming just the puppymills though. There are so many people out there that do not do their homework, and they go off half-cocked, and these high volume breeders see them coming from a mile away. And for a couple hundred dollars more, your puppy even comes with reproductive organs. And the buyers see nothing wrong with this. And the buyers repeat the cycle. Nobody stops and thinks anything other than "I paid a lot, and it has blah blah titles and blah blah health checks, so I will breed and make money too" Nasty cycle. Nobody ever looks beyond their own dog at the breed, or beyond their own wants to the repercussions to all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvw Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 Maybe the numbers of "crazy" dogs are the same but people are just asking for help as opposed to staying silent? I don't know. I have working bred border collies. Guess what? One of them is OCD with ball throwing. He was born that way. But I never ask what do I do. I just don't throw the ball for him if I don't feel like it (which is most times). There are so many times people come here stating "my dog does ______,what should I do?" And to me often, not all the time, the answer is "DON'T LET THEM DO THAT" . Seems like sometimes people make things more complicated than they have to be. I've been told, well you are a dog person so it makes more sense to you. But the truth is that I am NOT a dog person. Up until 2001 I was terribly afraid of dogs. I had to cross the street if someone was walking a dog! Jennifer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pammyd Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 In the UK at least I dont think it is the breeding in most cases We have had collies here for a long time and looking about me I would say collie and collie cross is the most popular dog in this area (city and country) People have not been carefully breeding them for years - even the farmers you often hear saying "she was a nightmare till she was 2 and I let her have a litter" so not really breeding for ability I think that people are getting more rubbish We have a generation of 'Y me' who have grown up thinking the world owes them a living The amount of people at 30 still living at home with no life skills Teachers are telling me that children are a nightmare because people now do not take responsability - they dont train thier kids or dogs Dogs are dressed up and not even trained in the basics (I know of 2 year old dogs still not toilet trained and the owner just yells at them when they come home and find the little accident) Sure there always have been and always will be difficult dogs But there have been so many comment from the rescue people that they get 9 month old dogs in that are lovely dogs the owners just did not train them a friend of mine who is a vet when I asked about collies said working lines and pet breeds of collies are OK but she is seeing some really bad wired in the head show dogs now - so there are exceptions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 Good point- temperament is crucial. A super working dog also needs a stable temperament. Biddability- to me, that is part and parcel of a good working dog. If you don't have biddability, you don't get very far. Redundant. A truly good working dog doesn't come without a good temperment or biddibility. We might not agree exactly on what good temperament is, but biddibility is essential for the dog to be good. And if its biddible, it can be trained to act the way you want..... so around the point goes. Stuff like you stated above is the advertising ploy of the breeders of lesser quality working dogs. They seek to play to those that have believed such quotes before. They typically want to give an explanation for why their dogs have not won at quality events - i.e. you had to have one of those "working" types to do so. Hmmmmm.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G. Festerling Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 I was kind of thinking and discussing this very same thing with a friend the other day. I am by no means an expert. My involvement with the breed has only been about 20 years. Never trialed even once. But my dogs have worked. In the roping pen, helping with babies and much more. The working sheep has only ever been for fun for me. And really, so has the rest as my livelyhood has never depended on it. But....my dogs are easy. They are high drive, love to work, smart and busy but when things are done, they hang out on the couch. They are not destructive, obsessive or unable to fit into real life. But I expect that of them as well. I have to agree a lot with Lenajo's post. Even with the trainers. But I will make this point. The advance of positive training has nothing to do with it. The blowing it out of proportions by a certain group of folks is another story. Would it be fair to say that with the emergence of the pet border collies where little care is taken in breeding sound and stable temperaments, that the need to employ alternative methods is the only way to help some of these poor animals? And would it be fair to say, that as some lines are bred for sports, which results in higher and higher drives these dogs become less and less suitable for real life? I see it in the German Shepherds and the Malinois. At the same time pair that with everyones believe that they should own anything they want whenever they do and so many people get overwhelmed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 I think a lot of the problems in this country stem from [XYZ] breeders who breed soley for conformation [or anything else besides good working ability] and not temperament and from the many backyard breeders who breed any two dogs together again with no thought as to temperament ... I think the above quote (with slight edits) pretty much says it all. As a breed gains popularity, people start indiscriminately breeding them, and the next thing you know you get dogs with all sorts of issues, and the people who buy them are often ill-equipped to deal with *any* dog, much less one that has been poorly bred. There, my two cents. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 I blame a portion of it on positive training gurus. People, especially those coming into pet and sport training in the last 10 years, have become afraid to adminster fair, constructive, and humane discipline. They are being taught that any discipline is abuse, and if they use it they have failed as trainers and owners. These people want to be "nice" and kind above all (another trend in our society) so if they can't train the dog with the PP methods then they are taught/encouraged to blame the breed, breeder, or the dogs mysterious past, for any failures. As you would probably predict, I would actually say the opposite. I definitely see the role of the Cesar Millan/dominance theory/alpha types leading to problems with some of these dogs. (Note, I said "some", not "all") I personally know a few people who train their Border Collies according to the correction based/dominance framework and they have ended up with dogs with the same types of issues that so many of the posters on the board are bringing up lately - OCD, lack of attention and focus, barking issues, an insatiable need to be stimulated. Excercising these dogs to the point of exhaustion and trying to solve every puppy problem by trying to establish that the human is dominant just doesn't seem to be working from what I have seen. This post serves as a good case in point: http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showtopic=17376 If you can find a way to attribute this particular case to positive training, Dean and I will come and dance a jig in your hometown!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 Can we please not turn this into a positive training vs. other training methods argument? Thanks. (FWIW, I saw Lenajo's comments being more directed at our culture of permissiveness, which seems to be creating plenty of issues in human and dog alike.) J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 Umm, WHAT? Since you don't know me, and have jumped to a complete supposition of where I am coming from based on my evident inability to get my point across, let me elaborate for you. I think I said: "Good point- temperament is crucial. A super working dog also needs a stable temperament. Biddability- to me, that is part and parcel of a good working dog. If you don't have biddability, you don't get very far." If you read carefully, I in fact stated that you can't have a good working dog without biddability. As to the temperament issue, I beg to differ. I know of a top working dog, who is just incredible on the trial field, but should you reach for their leash, they will rip your hand open. I know of another dog who cannot handle men, period, anywhere NEAR them- will crouch, growl, and otherwise behave unacceptably. Both these dogs have won open trials several times over- you want to explain to me how this is what one would call "good temperament"? I don't understand your second paragraph at all- please elaborate. Redundant. A truly good working dog doesn't come without a good temperment or biddibility. We might not agree exactly on what good temperament is, but biddibility is essential for the dog to be good. And if its biddible, it can be trained to act the way you want..... so around the point goes. Stuff like you stated above is the advertising ploy of the breeders of lesser quality working dogs. They seek to play to those that have believed such quotes before. They typically want to give an explanation for why their dogs have not won at quality events - i.e. you had to have one of those "working" types to do so. Hmmmmm.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 Can we please not turn this into a positive training vs. other training methods argument? Thanks. (FWIW, I saw Lenajo's comments being more directed at our culture of permissiveness, which seems to be creating plenty of issues in human and dog alike.) J. That's not my intention, but I think it is worth discussing in this context - particularly if one or the other methodologies (doesn't actually matter which one) are going to be discussed as a reason for this problem. Since Lenajo presented the possibility of positive training being a contributing factor, I thought it fair to point out that correction based training and/or the widespread use of domiance theory based training could be to blame, as well. As one side had been presented, I think it balances out the discussion to present the other. Personally, I think that training methodology of any type has far less to do with this than other factors such as breeding and appropriate dog/owner match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 There is room for all training methods, and bad training is when you don't do what the dog needs. If the dog need stability, you give it. If it needs rules, you give it. If it needs to know it is right, you tell it. If it needs to know it is wrong, you tell it. That is good training. All I see in that thread is yet again a person using a "method", and not looking at the individual dog. Then of course the method is is "wrong" because of the results. Uh huh.... I left clear room for use of positive in my post, but you want to make me out to be an unbalanced trainer only using dominence/correction and pushing that as the only solution. Why is this sort of thing always the response to when it is pointed out, with facts, that positive training alone is not the "great solution" it is sold as? Does the fact that I pointed out that white only is ineffective, mean black alone is right? What is it with people and absolutes? Not sure why you want to got that route, or what it helps.....so whatever......we'll have to leave your jig for later. On the other hand, you can dance a jig on the fact that if you go to Karen's house, or my house...you will never have a chance to see us unable to take our dogs food away because its a growling, snarling psycho. I daresay it is same at Robin's, or Julie's, or G Festerlings..... Nor will you see us forced to play ball when we don't want to, or having to exercise dogs for hours on end to keep them well behaved in the home..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 Personally, I think that training methodology of any type has far less to do with this than other factors such as breeding and appropriate dog/owner match. Nice excuse. If that were true...then why do the good trainers seem not to have any problems getting basic behavior trained and sanity to prevail in their homes even with multiple dogs? Hmmmmm Good breeding and matching are appropriate. Then there is the next 15 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 On the other hand, you can dance a jig on the fact that if you go to Karen's house, or my house...you will never have a chance to see us unable to take our dogs food away because its a growling, snarling psycho. I daresay it is same at Robin's, or Julie's, or G Festerlings..... Nor will you see us forced to play ball when we don't want to, or having to exercise dogs for hours on end to keep them well behaved in the home..... Nor would any of you at mine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 If that were true...then why do the good trainers seem not to have any problems getting basic behavior trained and sanity to prevail in their homes even with multiple dogs? That's an excellent example of an appropriate match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G. Festerling Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 If you read carefully, I in fact stated that you can't have a good working dog without biddability. As to the temperament issue, I beg to differ. I know of a top working dog, who is just incredible on the trial field, but should you reach for their leash, they will rip your hand open. I know of another dog who cannot handle men, period, anywhere NEAR them- will crouch, growl, and otherwise behave unacceptably. Both these dogs have won open trials several times over- you want to explain to me how this is what one would call "good temperament"? I do understand what you mean but I also beg to differ. To me, I will take a lot of things into consideration when dealing with an exceptional animal, but to me those examples are dogs I would never breed to. No matter how many trials they have won. They are not good temperaments. And although I know that there is no one perfect dog out there, those are huge no no's to me. Breeding that kind of dog, even to a highpowered bitch does not guarantee working pups. So the ones that are not great workers may have the chance of getting questionable temperament and will end up in "normal" homes. Unless we are willing to cull any pup that won't work. Here is my point of view. Only the best dogs should be bred. The standard has to be twice as high as for a straight working dog. Just because they work does not qualify them. There is so much more to it. The ones that fall short in perfect temperament, good working structure, intelligence, you name it....should be the working dogs, pet dogs, sport dogs but not the breeding stock! I would prefer to breed to a good working dog, with good temperament, good structure over a great working dog with only marginal to questionable temperament etc....not sure that makes any sense. Just my opinion however. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HighDesertSpice Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 As you would probably predict, I would actually say the opposite.... You are so sane, I love it! The "all or nothing" thinking, the group think, the oh so wide paintbrushing of anything that isn't "hard scrabble Welsh Scottish Highland brought Over here" imagery does this group or dog so little favors. (Expecting to hear "Shrill-spoken-here" to break out any second now.....). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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