Confused and losing ground

[JL]

I am having "issues" with my 7 year old BC Aussie mix and after spending hours and possibly days reading articles and books I still don't know what to do. Everything contradicts.

Background:

I have owned her since a pup. We did obedience classes and she was AWESOME. I do everything most articles say to do to maintain Alpha status. ie she eats after us, goes through doors last, doesn't pass on stairs, heels well, knows all commands, isn't allowed on furniture, doesn't get people food, isn't allowed in the kitchen, is crate trained and uses it daily, etc. 98% of the time she is a GREAT dog.

Problem:

She has ALWAYS had to sit/stay before she gets to eat. For the past few weeks she has not wanted to stay until I release her. I quickly tell her "NO" and although she sits back down, she also crouches and growls at me. This tells me my Alpha status is being challenged and I don't like that.

What I have done:

I have removed the food and tried again later = still growls when food enters the picture again

I have removed her and tried again later = still growls...

I have put myself between her and food = still growls...

I have done collar corrections as I was taught in obedience classes = still growls...

I have used a shock collar (which is the only thing that controls her barking and jumping uncontrollably when someone comes to the door) = still growls right through it {this remains my other "issue"}

I have rolled her over until she becomes submissive (I know many people are against this but I am NOT afraid of her!! and it is a last resort) = still growls...

I have started feeding her a small portion at a time so if she doesn't growl I get to praise her (mostly change my tone to "happy" since she already got the food) and do it again.

Moving her bowl to different locations seems to help sometimes but not always.

The bigger problem:

If my 4 year old comes in the room the growling starts again and although I am not afraid of her and she has never bit me, I don't know if she would bite him and I don't want to find out!

Generally, they have a great relationship and he is learning to give her commands, heel, they LOVE to play hide and seek and anything outdoors.

The biggest problem:

We have a new baby due in 6 weeks. (Could this be part of it? Does she know?)

My faults:

I am not perfect and I realize I need to stop petting her when she asks and I'm thinking of kicking her out of our room at night. (she sleeps on the floor)

PLEASE tell me what else I can do or stop doing. I do not want this to get out of hand.

Thank you. I know there is a lot of experience out there.

And sorry this is so long but I wanted you to get the whole picture.

JL

[juliepoudrier]

JL,

I'm not an experienced trainer of problem dogs by any means, but it seems to me if part of her problem is that she's feeling insecure, booting her out of your room, where she's accustomed to staying is only going to stress her more. I think sometimes people are too quick to attribute behaviors that puzzle them to the dog trying to dominate them when there really may be something else going on.

 

If you look back over when she started the growling, has anything in your life/routine changed?

 

I'm sure others will have more help for you than I can give, but I strongly recommend *not* shutting her out of your life now just because a new baby is coming along.

 

J.

[theshine]

I would feed her crate. I also agree with what Julie said.

[Kyrasmom]

I would make an appointment with the vet for a physical and blood work, including thyroid, to rule out anything medical. Just like with people, mood swings can be the result of something medical.

 

AS this is a new behavior for her, my first assumption would be medical. If it's not maybe she's feeding off of some emotional turmoil in the household given that you've got a lot going on, a small child, a baby on the way in six weeks, and that makes her insecure. Plus now you feel that she is somehow challenging you...which is going to put you on edge all the more and while, maddingly enough, will just make her feel all that much more insecure. It's a vicious cycle once you start to worry about her growling.

 

I've got a hypothyroid dog who is very moody but all I have to do is think that he's going to growl, and he does. If I keep happy thoughts, MOST of the time, he won't growl at all.

 

Also, don't think that it's all a challenge to an ALPHA status, something has obviously changed for her, be it physical or emotional, and she may feel insecure...not challenging at all.

 

Maria

 

Editing to add and very important: do NOT use a shock collar for any kind of aggression...if there is any kind of challenge going on, the impulse from a shock collar will not calm her, it will make it worse. Shock collars may have their place with certain behaviors but aggression is not one of them.

[JL]

Julie,

I have thought a lot about anything that has changed and the only thing (aside from the anticipation of the new baby) that may be different is that it has been too cold to spend much time outside lately. So we exercise the dog and the 4 year old in our unfinished basement. Maybe she misses being outside. ???

 

Theshine,

She is usually fed in her crate which is why I tried moving the bowl. I thought maybe it was a possessive thing with her bed.

 

Maria,

I will check with her vet, but do you have any suggestions if she is feeling insecure?

I agree with the shock collar not being the right answer. It works for the door only because she is overstimulated and it keeps her in check from what I call "being a spaz".

 

 

Thank you for the replies. It's nice to hear that maybe it isn't a challenge issue because I really was at a loss with that.

I am certainly open to other suggestions too.

JL

[Eileen Stein]

One thing I'm not clear on -- does she growl at your 4-year-old when he comes into the room only when you're in this standoff with her over her food, or does she do it at other times too? Don't want to comment further without knowing the answer to this.

[WyoBC]

I know these guys get so depressed if they can't be outside. That could be part of it. As Eileen said, I will wait for the answer also.

[kelpiegirl]

I would take away the bowl- she believes that is hers, and feed her by hand. This makes it clear who's food it is. Growling can also arise from a dog who is very tense. Sometimes when we make a dog work hard for the food, it builds up in the dog, that eating is a competition. Sort of the opposite of what we want. How often do you feed her? Anyway, feed her by hand, and get her to trust that you will allow her to eat, YOUR food, and at the end, give her a nice biscuit for being good- basically, try and remove all the tension. I am more concerned about your son, and her growling- can you elaborate- what is the exact scenario?

[JL]

She does not growl at my son any other time except feeding time. They generally have a good relationship. He does not roll around on the floor with her but they play ball, hide and seek and they both have a great time in the snow. All of the same rules apply to him as far as seniority.

I have fed her by hand and she will do fine UNTIL my son comes near. She keeps looking at him from the corner of her eye and her "take it nice" command isn't quite as nice anymore. Then she growls and I quit feeding her. When I come back later, sometimes she is good, sometimes she isn't. If my son is there - she isn't.

I USED to let my son dump the food in the bowl thinking this would help create that status but lately she starts heading for the bowl before she is released and that has turned into the growling and here I am now.

I hope that clarifies.

Thank you for your responses.

JL

[Kyrasmom]

It might not be a bad idea to just feed her in the crate until you get a better handle on this. For one, it will make her feel safe with her food. I have an incredibly well-adjusted puppy who just turned one and he pretty much is the most solar dog I've ever met in my life. He's happy and relaxed and will sit and watch others eat wtihout even thinking of sniffing around their bowl. But recently another dog decided to sniff him up and I could see his eyes becoming wary. So, if for whatever reason I'm feeding dogs together, now I just feed him in his crate so he can eat at his own pace (he's a very slow eater) and not feel worried. When I say, "food-crate" he literally opens the door himself and very literally bounds in and turns around with the cutest grin ever.

 

 

What is odd is that you've had this dog for 7 years, you've had her through the birth of your first son and it sounds like she's been a good girl...that is why I would go the medical route first.

 

If it really is insecurity, then you need to truly be self-critical and try to think what may all of a sudden make her feel protective over her food.

 

Also, and this is a personal aside, but it's not all about Alpha status. I ask my dogs for a sit before I give them their bowl and it's always in a precise order as I have 9 and will not tolerate anyone stealing. So, I say "name-sit" and that dog knows that he's getting his food and the others know not to bother him. And once I put the food down, it's theirs and I don't bother them. If she growled once for whatever unknown reason and you escalated matters with interrupting her meal or rolling her...it's not so much that she's challenging your Alpha status, so much as you're making her feel more and more protective about the food. And if she's somehow connected this with your son.....it's another reason why a crate may be a good thing, it's her space, her food, and you take the neurosis out of the picture.

 

I'm not being critical, and with your dog I could be completely off base, I'm just offering what I would do with mine in your situation. I also know how hard it is to deal with a growling dog dispassionately.....but you've had her 7 years so I doubt it's an issue you can work through.

 

Look forward to hearing more!

Maria

[JL]

Thanks Maria, and I don't mind if you are critical. I came to you all for your advice because I don't know what to do.

I'm afraid that after reading too much and trying too much I have made a situation worse.

So if I go back to basic crate feeding (put her in the crate, fill the bowl and close the door) should I do anything if she growls or if she jumps at it before I can finish pouring it?

[Sue R]

Has your son ever fed her by hand? What does she do if he feeds her by hand? If your son becomes the source of the food, treats, etc., might that produce a good result? Right now, it seems like she is resource guarding you and the food from your son, viewing him perhaps as a threat to her food.

 

How about putting her in the crate, shutting the door, putting the food in the dish, and then putting the dish in the crate (provided, of course, that you don't get an aggressive reaction when putting the food dish in the crate)? Or having your son do this, whether or not you are in the room (but you are not involved in the feeding process)?

[Maralynn]

I'd start by filling it and placing it in her crate when she was out of the room. Then bring her in the room and send her to her crate to eat.

[KJ]

Others who are more experience will have some more in depth suggestions I hope. I just want to say I would really think about not using the shock collar or the alpha roll when it comes to matters of aggression or similar behaviour---even if there has been no bites.

[JL]

Yes, he has fed her by hand but not her meals. When they play hide and seek he takes a piece with him as a reward when she finds him. He is also learning to give her basic command for a piece. No problems there.

I'm very hesitant to let him hand feed her meals until I figure out what is going on.

[Eileen Stein]

JL, I just want to make the general observation that I don't think maintaining alpha status is something you should be focusing on here. There are exceptions, but I think dominance and alpha status are issues that rarely have to come up with our dogs, and sometimes it's counterproductive to introduce them. They're off-topic in most owner-dog conversations, so to speak, and so why bring them up? I'm not saying you should let your dog walk all over you. You shouldn't. You should insist on reasonable standards of behavior. But if you're always confronting the dog with your alpha status -- "I'm dominant over you" -- well, think how you'd react if your boss did that to you. It's hard to express exactly what I mean, but I think that alpha status is something that should be assumed rather than asserted.

 

First off, I would follow Maria's suggestion of getting her a physical, including testing for low thyroid and possible pain issues, just because this is a new development. Assuming she gets a clean bill of health, if I were you I would back off (which is harder to do if you have the mindset that you have to show you're dominant) on the sit-stay for dinner issue. Defuse the situation, as others have suggested, by putting the dog's food in her crate and then calling her matter-of-factly to go in the crate to eat it. Do that for quite a while -- a few weeks, at least. Do casual sit-stays and then releases with her at other times. Try not to make them into confrontations, just do it now and then, before throwing a ball, or before giving a treat, or just for no reason at all. See how it goes. It may be that the whole thing will de-escalate and evaporate. If things are going well after a few weeks, try feeding her somewhere other than the crate or where you were feeding her before, giving her a brief sit-stay while holding the bowl and then a release as you put it down. If that goes well, very gradually work back to normal in both location and duration of the sit-stay. Don't involve your son in feeding her meals until there's no discernible tension.

 

I'm inclined to think that what's going on here is a trust thing -- she's reading this dominance display not as you being her alpha but as you being her adversary. I don't know how to explain it better, and I could be all wrong, since I'm not able to actually see what's going on. So just consider it a suggestion and take it for what you think it's worth. Good luck.

[JL]

Thanks Eileen. I think maybe I have read too much about the alpha thing and that's why I immediately think of that.

We do sit-stays all the time as part of play or just because.

She has super hearing when it comes to her food bucket so maybe I'll put the food in her bowl while she is outside so it is just there when she comes in. ??

I do sense that "tension" you mentioned as hard as I try not to let on.

[Kyrasmom]

JL, it's completely natural to feel that tension because you're obviously worried for your child and that is understandable. I think you're being very willing to listen to things that completely contradict what you've thought was right. I worked with a behaviorist for my pack of loons and the first thing he had us do was eliminate the majority of the interaction with the dogs. He didn't even want us to call them by name, he didn't want us to talk to them, he just wanted us to see to their basic needs with minimal interaction. No petting, no playing, no ball, nada! I felt as if my heart had been torn out and handed to me on a platter....even if this was only for a week. But in essence, what he did was take the stress off of our dogs because our interactions, even pleasant ones, can cause stress.

 

As I've said previously, you've got a new baby, you're protective of your child, you're anxious to get this new behavior under control....but all she's really telling you is that she's unsure.

 

Crating her is not taking a step back but simply relieving her of the pressure to react at all...if in fact there is nothing medical going on. All she has to do is go into her crate and Voila', there's food! What could be better than that. It'll also give you a chance to not "set her up to fail" as you'll soon not feel that tension build (that she senses) when there's food involved. They are so sensitive to signals that we don't even know we're giving. You need to give both of you a chance to reprogram your behaviors....and according to my behaviorist at least, it takes at least 3 weeks for new habits to form for dogs. I don't know that it's a science, but it just tells me that I have to be consistent over time.

 

Maria

[Shoofly]

I've known at least a couple of dogs that were just plain weird about eating in a crate and would growl while eating. And these were well trained working dogs with no problems knowing who was "top dog".

 

I think i'd stop doing the sit stay thing before feeding and stop turning mealtime into a tug of war between you two. You're trying to make the dog resist eating just because you say so, and setting the dog up to challenge you. Pour some food in the bowl and leave the dog alone to stand there and watch you or whatever - let it relax and enjoy anticipating its meal. Open the backdoor, set it down and let the dog eat in peace. Give it 2 minutes, pick the bowl up, and mealtime is over. 2 minutes is plenty of time for any dog to finish.

[JL]

Ok, I have been taking everyone's advice and not making a big deal of feeding times. I either put her outside to fill the bowl, pick up the bowl to fill it and just put it back down, or feed her when she is out of the room. I really like how it eliminates the confrontation and the tension.

BUT today the UPS man came to the door and her normal barks turned into a rougher bark (hard to explain unless you really know your dog) so I only opened the door enough to sign and get the package. When I closed the door I told her to "get back" and she did but she growled at me. I don't think it was aggression as much as dissatisfaction but now I'm even more concerned about this growling thing.

Should I be?

I also think she has been "spazing out" more than usual when someone comes to the door. As I mentioned before, I use the shock collar but she doesn't wear it all the time. (she wasn't wearing it today)

She has also been laying next to the door a lot lately. I'll call her somewhere else and she goes but she will end up back there again later.

Thanks for any advice.

[juliepoudrier]

JL,

Have you gotten her a thorugh physical at the vet's? I really think that's a very important step to take whenever a dog's behavior suddenly changes. I think it was mentioned in this thread as well, but I wanted to reiterate that it would be a very good idea to have her health checked.

 

J.

[JL]

JL,

Have you gotten her a thorugh physical at the vet's? I really think that's a very important step to take whenever a dog's behavior suddenly changes. I think it was mentioned in this thread as well, but I wanted to reiterate that it would be a very good idea to have her health checked.

 

J.

 

 

Not yet but it's on my list and moving up quick.

Thanks.

[Shoofly]

I have to say, it's really very odd for a 7 year old dog to start this behavior. You did say it's just started in the last few weeks?

[JL]

I have to say, it's really very odd for a 7 year old dog to start this behavior. You did say it's just started in the last few weeks?

 

The growling - yes, she was always good at sitting on her rug and waiting until I released her for her food. There was no problem.

Spazing out at the door - no. This has been an ongoing problem for a long time and I believe I wrote in for advice about that a long time ago too. Growling at ME at the door is a brand new thing.

[Kyrasmom]

I'd really just get a thorough physical, bloodwork, thyroid, as I said, and take it from there. While not impossible, it's just very unusual that a 7 year old dog would develop that particilar habit without something being wrong. What exactly does she do at the door? Have you noticed any kind of staring at walls? You mentioned laying next to a door? Does she seem relaxed or tense?

 

My hypothyroid dog has growling issues, undiagnosed he growled at us, now he just growls at the other dogs, and after any kind of episode, he would plaster himself to the door but not to rest, it would seem as if he were listening to himself inside. It was very odd.

 

Hope you'll continue to update us.

Maria