Why?

[juliepoudrier]

I like Bill's list too. It was entertaining. In that spirit of friendly banter:

Um, huh? I don't even get how this is friendly banter, but whatever. How about adding something substantive to this discussion instead of making underhanded snide comments directed at those with whom you disagree?

 

J.

[1sheepdoggal]

Um, huh?

 

And theres my "me too" post for the day.

[stockdogranch]

I like Bill's list too. It was entertaining. In that spirit of friendly banter:

 

Um, huh?

 

Thanks, Julie. I thought it was just me being dense again.

 

A

 

Where's that darn head banging emoticon...

[herdcentral]

I have had one dog that was difficult, over the top, from the minute I picked her up from the breeder. She was a real challenge and nothing seemed to be working. I eventyually found a good trainer and discovered that this dog was very responsive to reward based training. I also spent time teaching her to relax and she responded very well.

 

Any ankle nipping and other assorted bad behaviour was rewarded with an immediate halt to any activities and time out. Her choice. She came to understand this concept and we made great strides. This little monster taught me so much!

 

I now have a couple herding breed dogs currently a BC and ACD that I train for agility and I have found that a combination of setting definite boundaries, positive reinforcement and allowing the dog space to think about what I want during training has worked really well.

 

The dogs know what is expected from them and seem to enjoy working out how to earn my praise. I am constantly amazed at how quickly they figure things out. They are a joy to own and behave beautifully amongst the commotion of trials.

 

My other dogs have been a piece of cake to train compared to my monster but I sure learnt a lot! She would have been the typical too hard basket dog for a lot of folk.

 

I am not against other training methods at all. I love training and working with my dogs and over the years have found what works best for me. I vary it with individual dogs but is always positive and teaching the dog to think conceptually.

 

I think the point is is that owning a dog requires a great deal of committment and a willingness to truly understand the use of the training methods that you have chosen and the nature of the breed and the individual personality of the dog that you are working with.

 

I like to go to courses and seminars as there is so much more to learn!

[Sue R]

Do any of you think some of the change you are seeing might also be partly due to the vastly different expectations we have of dogs, now?

 

I think this is a very good point. I also think that it involves people who do so much more with their dogs than when I was young (my two friends who were into AKC obedience and myself with my stray dog were the only ones in a large neighborhood that *did* anything with our dogs).

 

But, I also think it involves people with unrealistic expectations - they want the latest designer dog (because in some way it is so superior to "everyday" breeds), or the latest "fad" dog (because it's so rare or so large or so small or so totable, or whatever - without any regard to whether it's healthy or suitable to their lifestyle or situation), or because it was so endearing in a movie or commercial or dog show on TV (without realizing all the care and training that went into developing that dog to do what it did).

 

What I think was missing from Bill's list was the pervasiveness of the internet as a learning/teaching/venting resource. It sure feels to me like there are more border collies out there, and more whacked out border collies out there than ever, but also I can "talk" to a lot more people than ever before, so about 99% of those folks with "problem" border collies I would never have heard of or from ten years ago. This magnifies everything.

 

One thing that is always amazing to me is just the sheer number of people who don't know what a well behaved dog is.

 

Among many thoughtful points RDM made, these two made a great impression on me.

 

From where I am located (minus the internet, boards, and the people and activities I have met and participated in through them), my entire experience with Border Collies would have consisted of AKC-bred (show/obedience lines) and backyard bred (and this would include the farm-bred dogs I've had and known as they were not the result of any careful breeding program, wonderful as they might have been). My experience with Border Collie owners and handlers would have been limited to those involved with AKC or those who are fairly clueless and just send old Spot to get the cows or sheep (if they even have livestock at all).

 

My awareness of many issues would not have extended past my own, limited experience.

 

As for dogs in public and behavior, if I had a dollar for every time someone remarked on my dog's good behavior (and they are not stellar examples of well-behaved - read that, well-trained - dogs) or that they couldn't possibly take *their* dog out in public (much less ride them around in the cart at Lowe's) - well, Ed and I could both retire now.

[sandra s.]

Many people seem to take such a theoretical approach to living with their dogs. "Puppy dangling from my ankle - what does the manual say about that?". I don't think they're idiots or wimps or haven't been spanked hard enough, but for whatever reason they haven't learned that it's possible to communicate directly with animals. Maybe they weren't allowed to romp around with them as kids (ooops, here I go with my own version of the "wimpy parents" thing ). Maybe all the "titles" that dog trainers need these days make it seem impossible that it could be as easy as saying "No, I don't want to play ball now".

 

I think that's what makes these boards special - many of the posters still take a more direct approach (not only stockdog owners and rescuers, but of course they have the greatest influence). The more we can get this attitude, spirit, whatever, across, the better it is for the dogs IMO.

It means less crate time (because the owner won't have to lock the dog away if (s)he dares to tell it to go scr*w itself and its ball when (s)he's busy).

It means less leash time, because the owner can tell the dog exactly what (s)he thinks about chasing chickens or cows and doesn't have to spend months on desentisising (sp? there should be a z in there I think).

It means (ideally) that dogs are treated like adult animals with a brain of their own.

 

I feel there IS a kind of pet culture that has very little respect for the animals themselves (although that doesn't justify making generalisations - most pet dog owners I know aren't the "OMG my baby has a scratch!!!" type.). These boards are one place where such people can learn about just LIVING with a BC - IF the headbanging emoticon doesn't come out too often .

[Bill Fosher]

I guess I have to plead guilty to one of the charges in High Desert Spice's "friendly banter" post. I have been known to change my mind. Slowly and often after several applications of a clue by four. But it has happened.

 

And I do have to admit that if I found myself agreeing with something like "my dog needs to have a ball thrown at all times," I would start to question whether it was time to seek someone to apply the clue by four.

 

Bad execution of a good training theory is no better than good execution of a bad training theory, in my experience. But at least it leaves room for improvement.

[Maralynn]

I think that's what makes these boards special - many of the posters still take a more direct approach (not only stockdog owners and rescuers, but of course they have the greatest influence). The more we can get this attitude, spirit, whatever, across, the better it is for the dogs IMO.

It means less crate time (because the owner won't have to lock the dog away if (s)he dares to tell it to go scr*w itself and its ball when (s)he's busy).

It means less leash time, because the owner can tell the dog exactly what (s)he thinks about chasing chickens or cows and doesn't have to spend months on desentisising (sp? there should be a z in there I think).

It means (ideally) that dogs are treated like adult animals with a brain of their own.

 

Exactly!!

[Burnandreturn]

All this talk about positive/negative reenforcement training approaches, ball playing, everyone espousing all these theories.........

 

The internet has really made it possible for people to over intellectualize all this stuff.

 

It is real simple. All these people/owners that believe their dogs have a say in what goes on are Democrats.

Those that make it real clear, Lie down or else are Republicans!

[Kyrasmom]

It is real simple. All these people/owners that believe their dogs have a say in what goes on are Democrats.

Those that make it real clear, Lie down or else are Republicans!

 

Uhm...funny...but NO!

 

Maria

[sandra s.]

All these people/owners that believe their dogs have a say in what goes on are Democrats.

Those that make it real clear, Lie down or else are Republicans!

 

Gah! :lol:I think you just cured me of ever being overly pushy with my dog again.

[Root Beer]

It is real simple. All these people/owners that believe their dogs have a say in what goes on are Democrats.

Those that make it real clear, Lie down or else are Republicans!

 

Yeesh! If I have to be all "Lie down or else" to be Republican, I'm going Independent! :D Teeeheee!!

[C Crocker]

All this talk about positive/negative reenforcement training approaches, ball playing, everyone espousing all these theories.........

 

The internet has really made it possible for people to over intellectualize all this stuff.

 

It is real simple. All these people/owners that believe their dogs have a say in what goes on are Democrats.

Those that make it real clear, Lie down or else are Republicans!

[/quote

 

 

Dear Burnandreturn,

 

 

In my case you have it backwards with this Democrat.

 

Admittedly I do not even know what 3/4 of the posts in this thread and the ones about Jean someone are talking about, so needless to say I do not follow these types of training with either a dog or a horse. I have been known to say to more than one horse owner ( I work where I am supposed to try and help these folks much of the time) , being told their horses will not do this or that, does not like this or that--Horse ( or dog) ownership/training is NOT a democracy in my world anyway. I even had a lady tell me today that she used clicker training, whatever that is, on her dog and horse. It's all too complicated for me. Maybe my dogs/horses are easier than many others to be around or maybe I am more lax ( which I doubt as my horses and dogs compete at a National level) in what I expect , but for me this of this discussion has been over my head.

 

But to make it clear the "or else" applies to this Democrate's animals!

 

Carolyn

[HighDesertSpice]

need clear, consistent rules and love routine. They need black and white, with as little gray as possible, and they appreciate being told "no, i don't like that" every bit as much, if not more than, "yes, you're making me happy".

 

You know, this makes more sense to me than "desire to please/ works for praise"- which sorry to say, I've just never been tuned into as an underlying dog training philosophy. Your other statement about bc's needing it especially because they will establish the wrong habit so quickly--is great. Very clarifying -- not as vague. I agree completely.

 

RDM - even though you are such a pill ...I will agree with this statement you made above:

 

But there are also handlers who are gifted with dogs at both ends of the training spectrum - and in between lies everyone else with varying degrees of success or failure.

.

 

I'm not one of the gifted ones either--and yet like Sue & Ed I do on ocassion receive compliments about how my dogs behave in public, and so I trust that means I'm learning....but have no hopes of ever retiring on this.

 

Yes, the internet has made this a valuable resource for me too.

 

Bill and others: 'Apologies if my list was over the top--but honestly, that was the mindset I believe I kept hearing over and over from the day I joined this board over six months ago--so with a bit of overemphasis to make my points, I gave vent to my frustration . ANd I better leave it at that....

 

End of soapbox~

[Sophinator]

My question becomes: is it the owner or is it the dog? I'm sure there are a number of psycho BCs out there--any breed that becomes popular in the general populace is going to have issues from overbreeding and downright crappy breeding. But what about the owners who get what is a high energy/very intelligent dog and expect it to be window dressing? For instance, I know of a guy (through mutual friends) who has two border collies and lives in a small apartment. Oh yeah, he walks the dogs--when he has the time. He has a reasonably active social life and works fulltime. His dogs are friggin nuts. Wouldn't you be if you were cooped up indoors most of the time and bored out of your skull? I'm thinking that Nurture not Nature created these two whacko cases. But folks look at dogs like that and say, "Border collies are hyper and crazy and really not that smart." Now this guy really takes good care of his dogs from a physical standpoint and would be horribly upset if anyone suggested he was mistreating them. He just doesn't get it that maybe he should have opted for a more couch-potato-ish breed that would mesh better with his lifestyle.

[MrSnappy]

For instance, I know of a guy (through mutual friends) who has two border collies and lives in a small apartment. Oh yeah, he walks the dogs--when he has the time. He has a reasonably active social life and works fulltime. His dogs are friggin nuts. Wouldn't you be if you were cooped up indoors most of the time and bored out of your skull?

 

I have multiple border collies and have lived in a succession of small apartments. I work full time and have a reasonably active social life. My dogs are not only NOT friggin nuts, I have been responsible for the rehoming of over 500 border collies and mixes who need new situations. And I fostered a lot of them myself. And in my entire decade of rescuing border collies, I have NEVER gotten one from a condo or apartment dweller. Every single owner surrender has come from a home owner, or someone on acreage or someone moving off of their acreage. And yet I know a lot of border collies who live in apartments. Lots of well adjusted, active, happy border collies.

 

So whatever.

 

You keep ressurrecting topics that are months or even years old. ? It's kind of weird to see these old conversation pop up again.

 

RDM

[bc4ever]

You keep ressurrecting topics that are months or even years old. ? It's kind of weird to see these old conversation pop up again.

 

RDM

I think Sophinator is relatively new to the Boards and is maybe just now seeing some of the older topics, finds them interesting, and wants to add a comment?

[Tea]

The dogs?

 

Look at people themselves for your answers.

 

I work with youth and have said if every young person had to chop wood to keep warm and make their own socks, and grow their own food, it would be a better world.

 

In my opinion the world just needs good old fashion common sense.

[Sophinator]

I think Sophinator is relatively new to the Boards and is maybe just now seeing some of the older topics, finds them interesting, and wants to add a comment?

 

Thank you for stepping in on my behalf. I am new to the boards. What is ancient history to some of you is all new to me. Until there is a "statute of limitations" on how old a thread can be before a new member can't resurrect it, I may continue to "drag up" archeological posts.

[Amelia]

Hello all. lots of good points made here. IMO it has to do with the fact that there are about as many folks who understand how to raise a respectful pup as know how to raise a respectful child. from my experience it's a whole lot easier to raise a respectful pup and takes a lot less time, especially when you start from day one. i've had precious few people come to my place for a lesson or an instinct test that had a well mannered dog, and this includes a few hands that have been running dogs for years. they pull at the end of the leash or bark incessantly, put their feet up, blow off the whistles at hand and/or at distance and not much, if anything is done to correct it. and this pretty much cuts across breed lines.

 

originally, it was farmers and ranchers who had border collies. most, after a lifetime around animals, know how to keep things under control and that is true for their dogs too. more and more our dogs are ending up in the hands of folks who don't have that background, and i think that's a big part of the problem. border collies are smart. you have to treat them a little differently in the beginning. then once you've got their attention they make great pets, working partners, sport dogs, whatever. but the better you raise them, the better they'll be for whatever your intended purpose. it's tougher to re train an older dog to be respectful, but it's never too late. you'll just have to work a little harder.

 

cheers all,

[Root Beer]

it's tougher to re train an older dog to be respectful, but it's never too late. you'll just have to work a little harder.

 

Ah yes, I did this! Two years ago we adopted a 10 month old Border Collie who had been let to run wild from the time he was 5 weeks old until he was 8 months old and his former family surrendered him to rescue because he was way too much for them. And I do mean wild - with a Golden Retriever puppy who was only 2 months older than him, no less!

 

It took a ton of work and I often wondered how I was going to make it through some of those exhausting early days, but now that it has been two years (his anniversary with us is December 16), I am treasuring the memories of the first lessons that I had the privilege of teaching him - even when he had very little idea of what he was even learning or why. Now he is repaying that by becoming a teacher to me. Sometimes I'm more thick headed than he was even back then, but he's very good and I know I will learn more from him than I can imagine.

 

My question becomes: is it the owner or is it the dog?

 

As for nature vs. nurture, I do stand by the position I've always had - it's both/and, not either/or.

 

Basic temperament has absolutely nothing to do with the handler/owner/training/upbringing. It is what it is. A poor upbringing does not always ruin a dog with a good temperament. A great upbringing does not always "fix" a dog with a shaky temperament.

 

Of course, a good upbringing gives a dog with mental "issues" a better chance of being more "normal", and a poor upbringing can "ruin" a dog with mental "issues", but training style and manners alone cannot solve every problem a dog might have.

 

I've been teaching CU classes since September and it is a true delight to work with owners of dogs with "issues" in a context that provides them with ways to truly help their dogs, yet accepts in principle that mental and emotional "issues" in these dogs are not the fault of the handler and that their dogs cannot simply be disciplined into some standard of normalcy that may or may not be possible for those dogs as individuals. It's refreshing.

 

Any of you who know me at all can probably guess that I'm absolutely loving working with these folks and their dogs! If I hadn't had a dog with "issues", I would have missed so much.

 

I think that those of us who have dogs with "issues" have some important lessons to learn from them. Yes, we need to focus on the dog and behavior, but maybe it's not just about the dog. If we truly focus on seeking out what will help the dog based on the individual needs of that dog . . . well, all I can say is that it is a surprisingly amazing ride that has taught me more thanworking with any normal dog ever could have.

[Sue R]

Well put, Kristine!

[KBischoff]

I am probably "one of those people who shouldn't have a BC." I rescued 2 BC mixes. But... I hike and run a lot! I may not be interested in agility or fly ball but, still, isn't this a better life than in a shelter? I THOUGHT I was getting socialized dogs. That really wasn't the case but everyone told me it takes time for them to settle. I had to re-home Lily who ended up being a Border Jack (with the help of the folks reading these messages.) Well, I could've poured all my energy (and for 6 weeks I DID) into them but I am NOT a trainer nor do I want to be. I thought I could offer a good home to 2 dogs. They are not crazy animals but I still had and continue to have trouble. I haven't been out of my house except to go to the pet store or grocery store in 6-7 weeks. Because they need so much desensitization.... I can't take them anywhere! I have to gradually work them... it all got to me and now I have just one. Lily is in a much better situation.

 

So some people have good intentions and just do what they can. Some of these "rescue organizations" aren't completely up front about any issues the dogs may have. There are a million dogs that need homes... some that are ready to go on leash right from the start. That is what I THOUGHT I was getting. But now I am just trying to save the one dog I kept.

[bcnewe2]

Some of these "rescue organizations" aren't completely up front about any issues the dogs may have.

 

I think most if not all are as "upfront" as they can be. No one wants a dog to be returned or a situation to not work out. A dog that is being fostered in a home with dog savvy people is not the same as a home where the new owner doesn't know what they're doing. So issues might not show up till the dog gets to the new owner.

 

You are not a bad new owner, it was just not the time to get 2 dogs. Right there might have been the rescue org. mistake, not explaining that you should start with one and move on from there, then again they might have warned you about it and you thought you could handle it. A mistake that you couldn't have known was one till you got both dogs.

 

You don't have to do any thing special with your dogs. Running and hiking sounds like a great life for a BC.

 

I am so glad you found a good home for your borderjack and hopefully you are settling in with the one that you kept.

[AllieMackie]

I'm actually pleased that this topic was resurrected, as I got to read it and learn a ton about things I should and shouldn't work on.