Why?

[HighDesertSpice]

I think you mixed up your topics....or maybe the wrong board?

 

Who, Me?

[Sue R]

Yes, you.

[Journey]

I feel as though the boards are in a parallel universe again.....

[Lenajo]

In the land of the off topic, far far away.....

[HighDesertSpice]

In the land of the off topic, far far away.....

 

Nah. This Board.

On topic....

 

Your quote: "Working stockdogs of quality are still relatively easy to find, but the break between them and the show, sport, and backyard lines is widening at a cataclysmic rate."

 

Hmmm, I recall BC's from decades ago...before the "cataclysmic break" you point to, that were not "keen on stock" and very much NOT included in the AKC registries either. Same behaviors were seen....nippy et al.

 

Fully recognizing that this board is focused on the working bc's.

[Lenajo]

Nah. This Board.

On topic....

 

Your quote: "Working stockdogs of quality are still relatively easy to find, but the break between them and the show, sport, and backyard lines is widening at a cataclysmic rate."

 

Hmmm, I recall BC's from decades ago...before the "cataclysmic break" you point to, that were not "keen on stock" and very much NOT included in the AKC registries either.

 

edited, rephrased to be clearer What exactly is your point? How does this apply to the actual topic? Other than, I think, we are still talking about the same breed.

[HighDesertSpice]

What does this have to do with this topic? Other than, I think, we are still talking about the same breed.

 

Lenajo:

You seem to have a penchant for either dismissing the messenger, or the response if it's not fully aligned with your thinking.

[Sue R]

Definitely a different universe, and I'm not sure it's parallel...

[Lenajo]

Lenajo:

You seem to have a penchant for either dismissing the messenger, or the response if it's not fully aligned with your thinking.

 

I prefer not to shoot the messanger, as it would be awfully messy on some of these boards and lists.

 

Are you not aligned with my thinking? Honestly, I can't figure out what you point is to decide. Please be clearer so we can stop wasting board space.

[Lenajo]

Definitely a different universe, and I'm not sure it's parallel...

 

Twilight Zone music begins.....

[HighDesertSpice]

...messangers..

 

Edit: Chuckle

 

Edit: Edited to be more polite.

[blackacre]

The fact of the matter is that of the Border Collies that I observed among the people that I know who would be considered "pet people", it evident that employment of corrective training methods and dominance theory are producing - not curtailing - behaviors such as those that you brought up in the original question. It doesn't happen universally, but it does happen.

 

Strangely enough, the fact of the matter is that of the border collies that I have observed among NON-pet people that I know, it is evident that the employment of what you choose to describe as 'corrective training methods and dominance theory' are producing perfectly well adjusted, easy to live with dogs.

 

Why deny that trial grade dogs DO PRODUCE non trial grade pups?

 

Who's denying that?

 

And that after decades of selective breeding, the behaviors we see are the result? And that these pups--still intelligent and useful dogs--benefit from other than "stock keen" biased & directed training, et al?

 

Huh? Breeding for work creates weird dogs with behaviour issues? How does that follow? And how does that take us directly to the use of click/treat stuff? <shaking head bemusedly>

 

Why are these things so hard to acknowledge when they are seen every day!?

 

Because, um, they're actually RARELY seen in stockdog circles, let alone every day.

 

A

[Shetlander]

There are far too many people - owners, breeders, trainers, rescuers, k9 researchers, and speakers on dog training/behavior - who are fostering and even encouraging the idea of the neurotic Border Collie being the norm for the breed.

 

As public perception changes, public expectation for the breed changes, and the breed changes. Not the working dogs (the norm there for now is somewhat set) but definately the pet market and sport dogs.

 

There is almost a campaign by some Border Collie people that the dogs have an insatiable need to be constantly working or if not working, then doing something tremendously active. For years between this sort of hype and the revved up dogs I saw at agility shows, I thought Border Collies were a bunch of freaks. We had a BC mix when I was a kid who was the quintessential "smartest dog I'll ever have." I figured it must be whatever the other side of him was that made him such a fantastic pet to live with for all those years.

 

Eventually, I discovered that Border Collies weren't actually the exercise crazed lunatics they were purported to be. And that while they can be very intense in work or play, they can also be very calm and pleasant to be around. Even though Quinn is a sports model of the breed, he has been the easiest dog I've lived with as an adult. Admittedly, he was the worst puppy I've ever endured for the first few months, but once he hit about 5 or 6 months old, he became unbelievably wonderful around the house, better behaved than my Shelties had been at 18 months.

 

So I'll get to my point. I'm new to the breed but I see some people who don't know how to set limits and who believe a Border Collie must be trained/played with/run for hours every day. And who explain every bad behavior as "herding instinct" or "the price you pay for drive." Those types of expectations of what is normal Border Collie behavior are often fulfilled in the end by dogs who are wild, unstable exercise addicts.

[theshine]

I agree with everything you said Shetlander...

[Shetlander]

I agree with everything you said Shetlander...

 

You know, a coworker once wrote that in an email. I tried to get him to end all his messages with that line. I even had an IT person sneak it into his signature line. It was a no go but recently he said words to that effect and instantly got a look of horror on his face. Perhaps in response to my instant look of delight. But he's still not signing his emails that way.

[theshine]

Lol, maybe I should have qualified that in some way...

[Bill Fosher]

I think there's a few things to consider.

 

1.) There are over 5,000 members of this board. Some of them are going to have problem dogs. In fact, that's probably why some of them sought out this resource and became members.

 

2.) Very few people are going to write in and say "What a great day I'm having. Just wanted to share that everything is going swimmingly." They are going to write in when they need help.

 

3.) There is a part of the culture that seems to think that Border collies need constant stimulation and who can't be calm around them. They tend to have problem dogs, and then wonder why because they are "giving the dog so much to do."

 

4.) There are people who feed their puppies very high energy food and lots of it.

 

5.) There are people who watch two or three episodes of the dog whisperer and think they know how to train dogs, when in fact their timing is so horrendous that the poor dog probably has no idea what is expected of it. This is the fault of bad training and perhaps oversimplification of the theory on television, but not bad theory.

 

6.) There are people who go to "pawsitive" training sessions and think that dogs should never be corrected. This is the fault of bad training and, in my opinion, a theory that's a little shaky at best.

 

7.) There are more Border collies alive today, so there are going to be more truly damaged whackos of the sort that Melanie is studying. I'm not sure that I would buy that the percentage is increasing. (The percentage of dogs harmed by the effects of 3, 4, 5, and 6 are increasing, though, I think.)

 

There are probably a few dozen others, but that's what's rattling around in my head.

[stockdogranch]

Whew!!! See what I miss when I'm out working dogs all day? When I read the original post, my thought was, "gee, I've been wondering the exact same thing recently!" Good question. I don't have anything really new to add, other than to say that I totally agree with Lenajo on this one (as well as many others). I think that there are just plain way too many people out there who are not in charge. Period. (I believe I stated so on one of those, "Oh, my! Whatever can I do with fluffy? S/he just won't do what I ask, no matter how many times I click and treat" posts very recently). Yes, I think it has to do with bad breeding as well (that is, for the wrong reasons), and in my personal experience, I've seen more "wacko" BCs that are sport bred, as opposed to conformation bred (many of those, to me, are just dull-witted). So, yes, there's an element of "nature" in there. But on the whole, it has so much more to do with lack of boundaries and structure (nurture). I've been doing (stock) lessons with people and their dogs for over 10 years, and if there's one issue I've seen over and over again, far above others, it's a person who is not in charge (and I'm not talking just BCs here--this includes any and all of the "herding breeds"). While there's a part of me that wants to get along with everyone and say, "gee, I really don't want to offend anyone here," frankly, I'm really tired of hearing about all these "wacko" dogs, when in reality, it's just (yet another) clueless owner,

A

[borderlicious]

The training discussion is being covered, but what about breeding? I truly think that a lot of dogs are the way they are due to their breeding.

 

I hate to make this another "nit picking" post because someone who owns a dog like the ones described will undoubtedly take offense. But it's my opinion that most dogs bred for sports like agility and flyball have virtually no impulse control. They're wound up so tight that they need those little obsessive or obnoxious behaviors in order to release some of their nonstop energy. Training these dogs out of certain behaviors is often difficult because they often don't have the mental ability to shut out their impulses. They're bred to react quickly without much thinking, and that's exactly what they do. I notice a similar trend in the show-bred dogs, too.

 

I couldn't agree more with Bill, particularly on point #3 about people providing their Border Collies with constant stimulation, then being surprised when the dog is unable to handle living without something to focus on. It's crucial to teach a dog with an active mind how to deal with boredom. I agree, too, that over-permissive owners are often the cause of poorly behaved pet Border Collies, as are owners with lifestyles poorly suited to the breed.

[Shetlander]

I hate to make this another "nit picking" post because someone who owns a dog like the ones described will undoubtedly take offense. But it's my opinion that most dogs bred for sports like agility and flyball have virtually no impulse control. They're wound up so tight that they need those little obsessive or obnoxious behaviors in order to release some of their nonstop energy.

 

I think temperament is a big part of it. You can improve on it. You can wreck it. But it's the clay you work with.

[Marilyn T]

Robin... you have been very quiet for 60 posts now... how about telling us your theory????

[Shoofly]

I don't think there's much that hasn't been covered.

 

 

Robin... you have been very quiet for 60 posts now... how about telling us your theory????

[Root Beer]

I hate to make this another "nit picking" post because someone who owns a dog like the ones described will undoubtedly take offense. But it's my opinion that most dogs bred for sports like agility and flyball have virtually no impulse control. They're wound up so tight that they need those little obsessive or obnoxious behaviors in order to release some of their nonstop energy. Training these dogs out of certain behaviors is often difficult because they often don't have the mental ability to shut out their impulses. They're bred to react quickly without much thinking, and that's exactly what they do.

 

Very well said!

[Bo Peep]

Bill,

I like your post. I've been watching this topic and just didn't want to get into an argument or anything about "how to raise your dogs". March 15th of this year will mark my 21st year with border collies. I don't consider the breed "hyper" yet I think they are active. I have told people "If you want a dog that sits by the fireplace and sleeps, get a basset hound". Mine have done it all. Herding, trialing, farm work, agility, obedience, and just plain dogs. The only problem dog I had was Usher and I admit- it was all my fault. I was going through a depression and not giving him any time or training in his formative years. I've gotten out of that now and he has turned out to be a wonderful dog. What ever method you use that works for your dog, that's great. The questions, I don't mind answering, if I can help- It's usually common sense ones. Just what worked for me. I think we all love our breed and try and help others. That's why we come here. Sometimes to help, sometimes to brag, sometimes to show pictures of our beloved dogs.

I DO have to admit that most of my dogs come from herding lines. Even, the ones I lost. I've only had 2 w/o papers. My first dog and Bailey. Even rescue dogs come with excellent papers.

As far as breeding goes, any border collie bred to excel in sheep herding and that's what they should be bred for, is going to have a drive to do a sport, so why would anyone breed for anything but working ability? I did admit I bred before, but both of my dogs were great farm workers, though did NOT prove themselves at trials. They also had great temperaments and very biddable. I have not had a litter of pups in way over a decade, so I have been bashed before. Let's not bring that up again- LOL.

[gypsy84]

Just catching up now - I think this has got to be one of the most interesting topics I've read on these boards.

 

Bill's post is very well done, among others. Most of this has already been looked at, however I think peoples' self-centered attitudes are to blame (in general, as the cause of all these "wacko" dogs). Self interest is one thing, but when you get people who can't step back and look at the bigger picture to decide what The Right Thing To Do is, ie. "breeding my dog will not only make me money, it will also produce an entire litter of puppies who may then go on to produce more of their own. What makes my dog so special and worthy of being bred that I should do this while there are dogs and puppies dying in shelters?"

 

I could see it in children growing up that I went to school with, even my generation (early 20's) is so much different from my sister's generation (mid-teens). It is not just the age, but the entire underlying attitude. Very hard to explain, but it seems like the "respect for your elders" attitude is dying off without proper discipline (not talking beatings with a yardstick here, just good old-fashoined discipline). My parents spanked me, I turned out fine, and perhaps all the better because of it. I was not abused or mistreadted, I simply learned that certain things were wrong, and that if I didn't listen, no one would be happy, least especially the little girl with the sore bum. I use this same concept with training Gypsy, if she doesn't do what makes me happy, she will not be happy (no spankings for her though!) If I need to get her attention, or get a point across, (ie, COME when I call..even if that squirrel looks tasty and you might be able to catch it this time...) I will do what it takes to let her know exactly what is expected of her, and the consequences. Then, when presented with the choice, she is able to decide to make both of us happy and do as I ask, or disobey and suffer the consequences (time out, no more fun, etc)

 

It's crucial to teach a dog with an active mind how to deal with boredom.

 

Leave the dog with a university student studying for final exams. On these occasions, Gypsy goes for about a week without any real exercise (physical or mental), and even though I always feel guilty about "ignoring" her, she's content just to chill or chew a nylabone until I'm less stressed and I've got more time for her.