High prey drive = dead animals

[Miztiki]

Fynne has a high prey drive and has caught and consumed two squirrels and a duck. I have no idea if there were more before I obtained her.

 

Tonight my cat Tiggers brought home a young bunny. I didn't want it to suffer (it was wounded), so I brought Fynne to it and it was gone within a few seconds. It kind of surprised me because the bunny wasn't hopping around, and Fynne didn't sniff it or play with it first.

 

It got me to thinking about something though. We have another cat, Punkin, that acts very much like a cat. He's a big chicken and always has been about everything. Fynne has never in any way whatsoever treated either cat as prey in the house. She loves them and cleans their ears.

 

Tiggers is dog savvy and spends time with us outside. Again, I haven't seen anything at all that would worry me, but Punkin is a different story.

 

Punkin goes outside for a couple hours each evening when it gets dark. It's over 600 feet out front to the road and the next nearest road is way behind us. Punk doesn't go more than 100 feet out back, usually by the shed.

 

Hubby told me a few months back that he let Fynne out one night when Punkin was out. Punk ran up a tree with Fynne close on his heels. Hubby said Fynne was growling in a way that concerned him.

 

Since then we just don't let Fynne out while Punkin is out because I don't want Punkin to be afraid.

 

Now I'm wondering, considering Fynne's high prey drive, if there's not a danger of her considering Punkin as prey if she saw him running. I obviously don't want that to happen.

 

On second thought, giving her the young bunny tonight was probably not a good idea, at least not alive. I won't do anything like that ever again.

 

Is there anything else I can do to discourage Fynne's high prey drive? It would have to be in a controlled way, with Fynne on leash and a small critter set up to help.

 

Anyone ever faced something like this? Can you successfully lower a dog's prey drive? How would you go about doing something like that if it's possible? Or can such a dog never really be trusted?

[ErinKate]

On second thought, giving her the young bunny tonight was probably not a good idea, at least not alive. I won't do anything like that ever again.

I am glad you see how wrong that was. As you see you can't say don't don't don't, then ask her to do it. She won't understand. I don't know that the drive comes out of them, but you should be able to get a better handle on it. I have always said working is a command as much as sit. She should not be touching ducks unless you say so. Squirrels, I don't know Miz, I let my JRT catch them. But if you don't want her to, that is something to work on. Personally, there are situations that I don't trust my jack in. He won't grab a house cat with me there, but I wouldn't trust him alone.

[smileyzookie]

I agree about not trusting. I love Riven to death, but I wouldnt leave her alone with the cat. Not in a million years.

[Tiga's_mom]

I don't have any other animals in the house except for Tiga, but I'm wondering something. Those of you that said you wouldn't leave the dogs alone with the cats, well it surprises me. I have friends with both who leave them alone all the time. I never would have thought the dog might treat the cat like prey. Miz, sounds like you still feed Fynne raw and I think you use the whole prey model, is that right? What about you ErinKate and smileyzookie? Do you feed the dogs raw as well? If so, is it the whole prey model of feeding? I'm just curious if this may have something to do with it or not. I don't feed raw and I don't know anyone personally that does.

[Lunar]

Oreo got bit by a mouse once when she was young, and after that she would and did kill mice when she found any. But anything else... she chases, barking and growling. She's caught a squirrel a couple of times, but only shaken it dizzy. (It lived.) She DOES chase the cats if she sees it in the back yard, because she's not sure if it's one of ours or not (or even what it is)..... but she absolutely wouldn't hurt it if she caught it, I have no doubt about that. (She realizes when she gets up close what and who it is, then it becomes a game of chase for fun. Unfortunately my dad's 16 year old cat doesn't agree that it's very fun.) I think her prey drive just isn't that strong. So I don't think I can be of much help... I've never had a dog who reacted like that. Even Zeeke (who probably has the strongest prey drive of my three), only really chases. He's "caught" our cat several times (and he looks and sounds like a bloody tank when he's chasing him - scares the bejeebers out of the cat) - but when he gets the cat cornered he just stops and wags his tail and stares at the cat.

[Miztiki]

Morning guys! My sleeping schedule is so incredibly screwed up...

 

I don't know when or how Fynne got the duck (we don't have ducks). That and the one squirrel happened on hubby's watch (he doesn't know how she got the duck either). I've never told her "don't, don't, don't", though I think I will start discouraging her from chasing the squirrels.

 

Yes, I feed whole prey model. The food is processed though, so I really don't think the two are linked in any way.

 

Boy will chase the cats also, but he's playing. I'm not worried about him. I'm not worried about Tiggers (my other cat) either. He is dog savvy and doesn't act like prey.

 

After watching how quickly Fynne dispatched the bunny, and remembering hubby telling me how she chased Punkin up the tree and growling, I put two and two together. I don't want anything to happen to my cat, or any cat or dog that happens across Fynne's path.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Nothing to do with raw. I've had dogs that weren't safe around cats on kibble, raw, and anything else.

[Heppers]

Daisy must have no hunting instinct in her at all !!

 

She doesnt do anything like that !!

[Little Bo Boop]

First thing we do when we get a new Border Collie, is 'cat break' it We actually have one cat that is in charge of that, Rojo. He is the best cat for getting dogs to behave, and he just adores dogs, I've never seen a cat that likes dogs more than this guy. At the moment I have a 1yr old and a 2yr old dog. When we first introduce the dogs to the cats, it's in the house, under control. Should the dog try to chase or get rough with the cat, we use the command 'gentle'(Hokey, but you can use whatever you want LOL) They are NEVER allowed to chase them, a very strong correction is given for that. Rojo will stand his ground, usually rubbing up against the dogs. Our young female is still getting used to the cats, she will bat Rojo in the head sometimes, he usually just closes his eyes, poor guy,then if she continues to be too rough he'll give her a little smack. Anyway they all sleep together at this point (I have 3 dogs) and I never give it second thought leaving the dogs alone with the cats.

[Tiga's_mom]

Interesting. I guess I never really thought that much about it since it's never really been an issue for anyone I know. I don't know if Tiga has much of a prey drive or not. He would chase anything outside that moves if he was allowed, but I think it's more to play with it then anything.

[Jordi44]

Don't ever trust her with cats outside or young kittens. Our dogs chase squirrels constantly - but living in a woods, I think the squirrels like it as much as the dogs because I've seen them set the dogs up and I'd swear they're laughing at them. But my daughter's Spitz mix has killed kittens. We just don't trust her any more with anything under 4 months or so. She's only gotten very young - say 2-3 week old ones that she got out from under the dresser (long story), but since then, if we're gone and there are kittens in the house, I make sure she can't get to them - either she's outside one or the other is shut in. I also can't trust Blaze, my BC, around them if there's food. He killed a 3 months old Himi while we were gone one night - it was lying a few feet from the food bowl and looked like it was more an accident than anything. I'm guessing he snapped at her to scare her off, and hit her the wrong way. He's not aggressive with cats normally, but the dogs' food is now outside.

 

I wouldn't allow Fynne to chase or eat anything except toys and dog food. If he's aggressive towards "prey" he might also become that way with poultry or livestock, too. The BC herding instinct is very close to hunting, which is what you have to remember and control what he has. Don't allow any exceptions - firmly forbid - "NO", "Get off it", jerk on a leash, whatever works with him, to let him know he isn't allowed to even think about chasing something. Herding training might even help him - let him use the drive to "chase" but control it so that it isn't deadly or harmful. Good luck - not if there's a straight-forward answer to solve the problem, but I would do everything I could to make sure he wasn't out with the cats. Inside sounds safe, but he obviously considers things outside fair game - so to speak.

[kelpiegirl]

Not to state the obvious, but having brought her a bunny to dispatch, you have trained her that this is her "job" regardless of her propensity for such things. Prey drive is inborn, and can get dogs into big trouble, say they try and kill a racoon, or badger, or skunk. Since parasites are obligatory in rabbits, you will need to deworm her as well. Regarding the cats- don't leave she and the cats alone- I have heard many stories of dogs "turning" on the cats they live with.

Julie

[Mr_Tiki]

I don't know about you guys, but I was very disturbed with this episode (of Fynne munching on the poor little helpless bunny). I happen to love bunnies. Not forgetting its Easter time.

I tried to prevent it from happening, but DW thought otherwise.

Can't stop thinking about it. Now I don't even like Fynne anymore

[Keith Ramsay]

Originally posted by Jordi44:

I wouldn't allow Fynne to chase or eat anything except toys and dog food. If he's aggressive towards "prey" he might also become that way with poultry or livestock, too.

 

*snip*

 

Inside sounds safe, but he obviously considers things outside fair game - so to speak.

I stop all chasing and general prey drive before it starts. What would happen if Fynne were to suddleny think a neighbors yorkie [insert any little toy breed here] were a squirrel? What if he saw something he felt like chasing on the other side of the road? Lots of variables, and too unpredictable.

 

Who is in control here? At least you realize your mistake, but hindsight is not always the best way to realize things.

[Keith Ramsay]

Originally posted by Miztiki:

Tonight my cat Tiggers brought home a young bunny. I didn't want it to suffer (it was wounded), so I brought Fynne to it and it was gone within a few seconds. It kind of surprised me because the bunny wasn't hopping around, and Fynne didn't sniff it or play with it first.

Mr. Tiki:

 

I would suggest that is something you and Miz need to work out. I don't think Fynne did anything wrong, he just reacted to what Miz gave him.

 

Else, he would have never had the oppurtunity. As a dog owner, you are in control of what he has access to, and can do.

[2 Devils]

Mr.Tiki you can't blame Fynne. She is only doing what she was asked to do by Miztiki. Plus if she has been allowed to kill animals, then is up to you guys to prevent it from happening in the future.

 

Remember most animal bad behaviors are actually owner faults not the dog. But same goes for good behavior - the owner taught the dog so they can get praise for that too...

[emmetteabrakai]

Hi Miz,

I Wanted to chime in, as I have a heeler BC mix with a high prey drive . It started when my neighbors chickens wandered in to my fenced yard and, Gabby killed several before I could stop her since I didn't know they were out there to start with when I let the dogs out. Only Gabby actually caught anything. It went on from there, moles, rabbits etc.

From talking to trainers and a board certified Behavioralist, I have been told over and over that a dog with high prey drive that lives and adores a cat on the inside. Can and will often see that very same cat as prey outside, if it runs, and some times even if they don't. It's small it's furry and it's IE prey. A friends hound, killed their cat that it slept with and cleaned all the time. They were outside and the hound chased and the cat ran, and the hound killed the cat. I have been told to stop Gabby from any kind of killing, don't let her kill the Moles or squirrels, or bunnies nada nothing. The last time she got a Mole I reprimanded her showed my extreme displeasure, corrected her etc.

She is good with the cats and seems to enjoy playing with them. But I don't leave them alone with her as a safety precaution.I actually think she would be fine, in the house and my cats don't go out side. But there is that little doubt that I just can't get rid of.

Andrea D.

[Miztiki]

Fynne is a she.

 

What was my mistake? She's never been allowed to chase anything. If they happen to see a squirrel then they will chase it, but that's it, and it's not something I encourage.

 

My only mistake, if it can be called that, is giving her the live bunny. The bunny needed to be put out of its misery and she needed to be fed. Upon reflection, I've decided not to give her live prey in the future (if live prey presents itself) because I don't want to encourage her prey drive.

 

Fynne has never been allowed to chase or kill animals. I want to make that clear so that no one misunderstands.

 

My post was about my concern over her prey drive, and I don't want that to transfer to my cat. It was also about asking ways in which to dampen that drive.

 

As for Mr. Tiki, don't believe a word he says. He absolutely adores Fynne. Besides, he's supposed to be at work, WORKING!

[Hector]

My first dog, Pattycake, was a Lab/Elkhound with a very strong prey drive. I got her from rescue when she was about 8 months old and fortunately I didn't have any cats. I took her out running and I rode a mountain bike while she ran alongside on a leash that I had wrapped around my left hand. We normally went along about 12-14 mph. But if she saw a cat up ahead she would break into a flat out hard run. She would quickly tow me up to 25 mph as she ran to where she had seen the cat. Fortunately that cat was always gone by the time she got there. But it was a very serious run after prey.

 

We had a fenced back yard that had rough sawn cedar wood slats. Occasionally when I opened the back door to let her out, there would be a cat in the yard. She would go after that cat with a vengeance, but fortunately the cats could always escape by climbing over the fence. She never caught one, but it would not have been pretty if she had.

 

I cannot imagine any possible way that I could have ever changed her behavior toward cats. It was a very deep seated instinct that told her that cats were the enemy and needed to be dealt with. I doubt she would have eatten a cat. It was more like cats simply didn't have a right to exist.

 

I would not trust your dog alone with the cat. I think that is asking for trouble.

[Meg's mum]

The reason that I chose a bred puppy over a rescue dog was purely for the reason that we wanted to do as much as possible to give a dog and cat a chance to live in some kind of safe harmony. Sox is three months older than Meg and now less than half of her weight.

 

Meg and Sox go hunting...together. Meg digs or throw herself down on something, and Sox goes in for the kill. Sox taught Meg to hunt, without question. Sox brings the critter home to us. Sometimes, Meg will play with the remains until she pops them in her mouth. Lately she's been catching frogs on her own, and has an eye for birds. But a ball or a frisbee will trump an animal.

 

I'm more concerned about our animals being prey than killing prey. The abundant bunnies and squirrels have the sense to stay away. Its the black bears, cougars, bobcats and coyotes I worry about.

 

Meg does chase Sox, catches her and mouths her. Sox sneaks up on Meg and punches her, gets her attention and then runs like a banshee somewhere Meg can't reach her to torment her. Sometimes the two of them bed down in Meg's crate. Sometimes the two of them push one another off their 'mutual favorite stair'. We still have to caution Meg to be "Soft, soft, soft" until she grabs Sox by the ear and starts dragging her at which point Meg gets a HUGE barking growl and escorted to a BIG time-out in her crate.

 

But to be fair....Sox gets underneath meg, deeply grips her fur with her claws and forces Meg to be 'washed' for ten or more minutes at a time with litte love bites to spice things up. Meg bears it and then just gets up and drags the cat under her. Other times Sox's very sharp little claws and teeth are planted in Meg's butt when she's trying to eat.

 

When Meg is off somewhere, Sox pads around the house mewing looking for her. When Meg and I go down to the creek on a walk, Sox trails after us trying to figure out how to be part of the adventure. Both of them get a little jealous of our attentions toward the other, but Sox is sweet about it whereas Meg acts up and then sulks.

 

Meg can outrun and outclass Sox (she throws her body on top of her or a leg) now. To compensate, we're making lots of 'cat' accessible retreat paths in and outside of the house. And Meg keeps outgrowing places for Sox to hide.

 

I am aware that there is a significant risk and that it is a peice of hollywood fiction to think the two of them will watch each other's backs. But the two of them stand point together on the deck and protect the house and I've seen Meg put herself between Sox and an imagined fear when she would rather have run time and time again. (Sox looks at her calmly the way a psychologist looks at a madman).

 

I think that living with any dog that it still close to its origin is a risk, if you have them co-exist with other creatures (children, pets, other dogs, livestock). You watch them, take precautions, correct as you go and hope for the best. But unless they become dangerous you forgive a dog for being a dog (and a cat for being a cat-poor little birds.) Personally I'm rather found of rabbit.

 

Sorry for the self indulgent long windedness. I'm at work and in denial.

[smileyzookie]

Originally posted by Tiga's_mom:

Miz, sounds like you still feed Fynne raw and I think you use the whole prey model, is that right? What about you ErinKate and smileyzookie? Do you feed the dogs raw as well? If so, is it the whole prey model of feeding? I'm just curious if this may have something to do with it or not. I don't feed raw and I don't know anyone personally that does.

I spoke to my trainer about this actually this morning. She is a VERY avid raw diet person. Her comment was, if Miz's issue is raw diet activated, how come dogs on kibble do it as well.

 

In answer to your question, I feed Riven Science Diet. Im tryin to convert to raw, but Im goin through hell convincing my husband.

[2 Devils]

Miz - your mistake is still allowing Fynne to chase things. You said she has killed some things but only on Mr Tiki's watch so you need to train Mr. Tiki better. I know hubby's are harder to train but it can be done

 

If you are concerned about Fynne's prey drive then she must be prevented from chasing and/or killing live animals.

 

Fynne most likely cannot be trusted around your cats. Then again, I don't think many dogs can be trusted no matter what with cats/kids/other small animals...

 

Your mistake was allowing Fynne to kill an animal and the feast on it. That bunny could have any number of diseases from being in the wild and Fynne could become ill but then again, she may not.

 

When an animal needs to be put out of its misery, then YOU should be the one to do it not your dog. If you can't stomach doing it then find someone who can. Your dog should not be allowed to do it.

[Lunar]

Kim, I think she gets that now. Bad decision made on the fly, I know I've made plenty of those.

 

Miz, keep working on the husband. I think someone needs to set up "boot camp dog training for husbands". They could make a lot of money off of it. I know I sure could use it.

 

Heidi that is great. Sounds like Zoe and Jojo. They play like that too - rough and tumble. The cat bites her viciously. They don't cuddle - yet. But then again, with Zeeke around they aren't together for most of the day (only when Zeeke's in his crate).

 

I think some dogs have more of a propensity than others, simple as that. Fynne is one of those dogs who will likely never be trustworthy around cats or small animals. Prevent her from chasing - maybe give her a replacement behavior? - and always watch her around them. Other dogs, like my Zoe and Oreo, I have no problems leaving unsupervised with the cat. Oreo's been left home alone with the cats (all loose indoors) since she was about 1. We never had a second thought about it.

[Tiga's_mom]

Originally posted by smileyzookie:

I spoke to my trainer about this actually this morning. She is a VERY avid raw diet person. Her comment was, if Miz's issue is raw diet activated, how come dogs on kibble do it as well.

 

In answer to your question, I feed Riven Science Diet. Im tryin to convert to raw, but Im goin through hell convincing my husband.

Thank you for clarifying, that's what I was wondering if the raw diet would increase the prey drive. I've been considering switching to raw.

[border colliez]

The thought of you giving your dog a "live" bunny just sickens me. How could you do something like that???? You've just reinforced some very BAD behavior.