High prey drive = dead animals

[MaggieDog]

My Maggie caught and killed a rabbit several months ago on a hike - we ended up playing the "drop it, pick it up" game with the body, but she was not allowed to consume it.

 

Despite the great stalk, chase, catch reinforcement Maggie got from the rabbit, and despite my allowing her to chase any furry critter she wants while on campus walks, and despite actually buying rabbit fur to make toys out of, Maggie does *not* see cats in the same light.

 

My parents' cat will be chased and nosed and licked, but I have never been concerned about their interaction. The stalk, chase sequence Maggie displays with cats has a lot of intensity, but the follow through just isn't there.

 

Miz, you know your dog better than we do, so it is up to you to determine if you feel Fynne is a threat to your cat or not. Some dogs truly can't distinguish cats from prey, but others, like my Maggie, can and do and are safe with cats, no matter where or when.

 

If you are truly concerned, how about building a kitty walkway over or around the dog accessible part of the yard so your cat always has an escape route, no matter what? Then you don't have to worry about training the hubby and can work with Fynne as much or as little as you want.

[Kyrasmom]

I don't think prey drive is something that we can easily control, the dog which seems uninterested for 18 years can kill a cat at 18 years and one day. It's up to us to ensure that all our pets are safe.

 

I have, or rather my husband has, two cockatoos and by and large, my BC's interact with them on a daily basis, the birds will preen the feathers on their tails, one of them will actually get on the floor and attempt to chase the dogs, but it's always with our supervision because at any moment, one of our cockatoos can go from being "untouchable" to their next meal because something in their interaction changes.

 

Personally, I don't let my dogs chase anything and I usually unstuff their stuffed animals before they do but I'm not convinced it really changes what they could do if they so decided.

 

Maria

[border colliez]

I have a cat and 4 Border Collies, which I trust 100% around the cat. It's all in the training. I don't let my dogs chase ANYTHING, it's just reinforcing bad behavior. Living out, we have squirrels, bunnies, an assortment of birds, etc. going thru our yard - dogs do NOT chase any of them. They know that it's unacceptable.

 

I just don't know how anyone can be so cold - to let their dogs kill a living being.

[Dixie_Girl]

I have two dogs and one cat. The cat is older than the dogs. He explained to each when they first arrived, (well, the muttly when she could walk), who was boss. He is a "cool cat" and even though Jackson was more hard headed than Cheyenne, he finally got the idea, Sammy was not to be messed with. Now, when we used to live in town, Cheyenne would chase any cat outside she would see. If the cat was cornered and turned to face Cheyenne, she would stop and kinda look around like, what? I thought we were playing, then she would creep away! She is a chicken! Jackson has never been around any cat but Sammy, until I took him to his training lesson. The barn cat there was friendly, but the way Jackson acted I was a little worried. He did not have a clue that this was a cat and Sammy is a cat, same thing. But, eventually, he decided he could play with it. But the cat would just scoot somewhere else. Jackson was on lead. So, for Cheyenne, I would NEVER worry about her with ANY animal, she just doesn't have it in her. Has never killed anything. Jackson, while I trust completely with Sammy, I would not trust with another critter outside. Don't know if he would kill it or play with it to death, but it would probly be the same result. I would not encourage him chasing to kill anything because if I am using him for herding, I don't think it would be wise to encourage the hunt-stalk-kill. He must only know hunt-stalk, and no more.

 

I think y'all are being a little hard on Miztiki. She did say she wouldn't do it again and she felt it was a mistake. Y'all don't need to be attacking her to make her feel like crap. But then I guess if you've never made a mistake, you feel the need to let others know when they do and feel like crud on top of it.

[Zoe]

I agree with Keith and the last poster - I don't think dogs should be allowed to chase anything that isn't controlled by you - ie; a ball. Dylan was interested in birds etc, but he knows he is not allowed to chase them so he doesn't.

[mosstheboss2000]

What was my mistake? She's never been allowed to chase anything. If they happen to see a squirrel then they will chase it, but that's it, and it's not something I encourage.

 

You dont have to encourage it , it is self rewarding.

[kajarrel]

I disagree with many of the posters to this message. My guys routinely kill mice, voles, rabbits, squirrels . . . you get the idea. They also dig up dead lambs from the compost and eat placenta from the fields. But they never kill the chickens, ducks or other poultry that run free range around our yard, lambs, or the 4 cats that live in our house. Dogs DO have the ability to learn what may be killed and what can't (at least my 5 do) - they aren't allowed to kill things just because they move.

 

Kim

[border_collie_crazy]

you should be able to teach "leave it" for small creatures, Happy has to be kennel when my fully flighted budgie is out even though she has a very strong "leave it" command but its only because she wants to herd him, she he just keeps taunting her, she gets over exited to the point of completly stressing out, and I wont risk her accedently injuring my bird when she gets in a frenzie. Misty however has a very strong prey drive, I taught her to "leave it" using a leash looped through itself and her favorite toy, I would walk her by the toy and if she wnet for it I gave her a correction and the command "leave it" within that traing session I was able to send her to her toy, say "leave it" and she would turn around and come straight back, because she is so insanely high drive about her favorite toys, the training transfered perfectly to the bird, I told her to "leave it" once and that was in september, that bird can play with her feet, land on her head, tease her and taunt her, she wont even raise a lip. when it comes to rabbits outside, I just reinforced her "come" command, when she came I threw a party, made it seem like comming is the greatest thing ever, she is MORE then willing to ignore a rabbit to come back to me for a praise party lol

 

I also have a JRT that lives peacfully with a rabbit, she does not give my rabbit a second glace, she does not touch my gerbils or my guinea pigs, never had her around my bird lol apperntly my mom took her for a run and a bunch of jack rabbits were taunting the dogs, she siad that they looked at the rabbits like "ya and?" lol prey drive CAN be controlled with training and exposture.

 

by the way, all of my dogs are on a raw diet.

[Tammy525]

Scout killed a large mole today, the size of a large rat. Last week, he assisted my oldest son in the killing of a snake. (My son got in big trouble for this, too late to do anything with Scout). My son has been instructed to help snakes over the fence ALIVE. (they are all non-poisonous) I REALLY don't like snakes, I think he thought he was helping me out. But I know they are important and would never kill one, I just don't want to see it. Scout NEVER chases cats inside the house, but does give chase outside if they run from him. The cats have learned not to run from him. If they face him, he backs right off having received some nips on the muzzle.

 

Anyway, he started off with us a little afraid of other critters. Now he appears to be moving on to bigger and bigger, which is way creepy, like a serial killer or something. My oldest will be receiving some training from the tips you have given as he is encouraging the behavior, as is my dad who really hates moles.

 

Miztiki, we had a shrew get into the garage injured by the cat. I did him in with a shovel. It was the yuckiest thing I have ever done, I made the little ones go on the other side of the van so they couldn't see and Scout was in the house. It was going to die anyway, and I knew the cats would just torture it. But it still creeps me out that I did it in. I am far less squeamish about what the cats bring as that is a daily occurence now. What can I do about that? Birds, mice, moles, shrews, voles, snakes.....

[Lunar]

Originally posted by border colliez:

I just don't know how anyone can be so cold - to let their dogs kill a living being.

This post just bugs me. (I noticed you edited it, too.) First, some say that eating meat is a horrible thing to do; some say that raising animals (chickens, cows) just to slaughter them is a horrible thing to do. It's really not your place to pass judgement on someone else, though you're welcome to your opinion. Be respectful. Second, she already said she thinks it was a mistake.

 

Originally posted by Dixie_Girl:

I think y'all are being a little hard on Miztiki. She did say she wouldn't do it again and she felt it was a mistake. Y'all don't need to be attacking her to make her feel like crap. But then I guess if you've never made a mistake, you feel the need to let others know when they do and feel like crud on top of it.

My sentiments exactly.

[muddy bob]

When dh and I first began seeing each other he had quite a rat problem in his chicken barns and pigeon loft. We taught my useless sheep dog to kill the monsters (really big b$$$$$$ds)and she is worth her weight in gold for that.

I ask this of Border Colliez, do you think that it would have been less cruel to use poison? Sometimes those traps cause a lot of suffering too. If you had rats in your home would you not try to control the population? I don't think I'm horrible for teaching my girl to dispatch of the rodents. They had to be eliminated because they were beginning to move into the attic.

 

 

Muddy

 

P.S. I would NEVER trust her with a cat since I KNOW what she would do. I don't have cats.

[muddy bob]

Oh, I forgot to add that we don't live at that rat house any more and the girl has not killed anything in a while.

 

Muddy

[Dixie_Girl]

Have ya ever noticed that radical people like you find in PETA etc. always wanna protect cute animals? I never see them protesting outside of Terminex! Would they just live with ants, roaches, snakes, or rats/mice that invaded their home? I mean they are always in our face about not hurting any animal. Isn't a cockaroach an animal? I mean it's an insect, but still qualifies as animal, right? Just wondering........

[J.E.S]

I have 4 Border Collies and they do hunt the ground squirrels and rabbits on our property. They have caught some and ate them. Good, I don't have to feed them dinner tonight. They never go after my cat, my toy poodle or my sheep. And when I had ducks and chickens, they did not go after them either. As long as I am there supervising. I was in my arena working sheep the other day and a rabbit jumped up in front of my dog and started running off. He was definitely within reaching distance of my dog. My dog looked at him quickly then put his mind back on the sheep after he saw what it was that was moving. Nature dictates dogs hunt. We can only repress that instinct to such an extent. I would never leave my Border Collies alone with my sheep or any other animal unless I was there to supervise. I wouldn't worry too much about giving your dog the baby rabbit. You ended its suffering.

[Coloradogirl]

Spot, will run full grown bunnies down kill them and eat them, yet when he is around the cats he ignores them, or if they insist on being next to him (thanks to Cherokee) he just looks anoyed as they are rubbing on his legs. I think you can teach ok to chase and not ok to chase, I have never yelled or scolded Spot for killing and eating rabbits, but when he was a pup I did yell at him for chasing the cat. That is all it took as Spots feelers get hurt really easy. Just my 2 cents for the evening.

[Nik]

It sickens you that she gave her dog a "live" bunny (wounded mind you) that her CAT caught and brought to her in the first place?!?!

 

Whatever happened to animals of all kind having a prey drive? How did they survive before humans got involved? It's called NATURE and no matter how much we humans take control over animal instinct, it never goes away completely. Keep in mind it could creep up on the most well trained dog.

 

Miz, cats are usually pretty good at getting away from dogs. I understand your concern for keeping ALL of your animals safe, but don't let this make you feel like you've made a mistake w/ Fynne.

[kelpiegirl]

Lots of separate issues here. First, are the cats safe? I have a cat, and several dogs. I crate my dogs when not home, all except for the old lady. All my dogs love my cat. My cat loves them. My cat isn't allowed out other than say, on the deck, and when she does, she is AFRAID of the dogs (the same ones she routinely grooms and sleeps with), because the knows that at least one loves to chase her. She is a smart kitty Once when working on a farm, we had a litter of kittens, and the springer spaniel who lived there never bothered them. One day we came out and they were all dead- all wet, Percy killed all of them. We never saw it coming. The point is, we never do know when or if the dog will forget that the cat is prey or friend.

 

As for killing various wild animals, I suppose it isn't a problem as long as you have wormer close by, and flea preventative, and depending on the size, make sure the dog is vaxed against Distemper, Rabies etc). Just saw a red fox this morning looking pretty cruddy- mange too.

 

Julie

[Bill Fosher]

Mr. Tiki,

 

Asking a dog not to kill a wounded rabbit would be like asking a teenage boy not to peep through a hole in the wall of the girls' locker room. You might get compliance, but it would be grudging, and if he got the chance to do it when you weren't looking it would at the very least be mighty tempting.

 

Some of my dogs love to hunt mice, voles, etc. But like Kim's they know they can't eat the cat (much as I wish they would sometimes, but that's another topic).

 

Allowing dogs to hunt, kill and eat small prey does not make them any more likely to kill or eat domesticated fowl or pets. Of course, you have to help them understand the difference.

 

There was one comment that Mistiki made that I think needs correction: she said that Fynne is never allowed to chase animals, but she has caught them. If she's caught them, she has chased them, and is she's chased them she's been allowed to chase them. The fact that you might not have wanted her to, and that you were telling her not to doesn't change the fact that she did chase them, and she was rewarded for chasing them.

 

Dogs don't just learn what we want them to. They learn from their experiences as well.

[2 Devils]

I guess my problem is that Miztiki allowed Fynne to kill off the bunny. If it was Fynne's job to rid the place of pests that is one thing but to take her over to just finish it off is where my problem lies.

 

Either the cat that caught the bunny should have been allowed to finish off the prize or Miztiki should have but not Fynne. That is not Fynne's job.

 

I have no problem with cats and dogs hunting as long as it is somewhat of a fair fight. I know I am not explaining myself correctly but it was not Fynne's job to do finish off the bunny.

 

Punkin (I think was the name) or a shovel should have done it, preferably Punkin since the cat is one who caught it to begin with...

[Mr_Tiki]

I don't think there is a problem with our cats coexisting with the dogs. They have been living together in the house for over a year and sometimes we leave them alone together. The problem is when Punkin (the chicken cat) wonders outside. He would run away from the dogs and they in turn get encouraged to chase him. My worry is that in the dark, they probably can't recognise who he is and may end up harming him. Fynne doesn't seem to recognise things quickly. Once I was coming home and closing the gate, she came charging at me at a tremendous speed, barking at the same time. She paused and continued to bark until I spoke to her (something like "its me").

 

As for me encouraging the dogs to hunt, its quite the opposite! I don't like this at all. I once saw a dead decomposing duck in the yard and assumed that it was the dogs who may have hunted it. I am not even 100% sure of that.

 

Dixie_girl, I don't quite agree with you with regards what animals to get rid of and what not. People try to get rid of harmful animals who give them diseases (rats, roaches, etc). But a bunny, or a bird, are hardly harmful.

[Deneen]

Both of my dogs love to chase bunnies, squirrels, and outdoor cats. Outdoor animals are fair game in their minds. Sarah even pushed out the screen on our screendoor trying to get at a neighborhood cat that was sitting on our front step. However, they've both been introduced to cats indoors and were fine with the cats then. We don't have any cats ourselves, but vets' offices and stores w/cats didn't even phase them...they just sniffed and moved on.

 

It seems that everyone has their own opinion of what is appropriate and what is not for their animals. It sounds like some people let their dogs/cats chase wild animals and eat them. Other people don't allow their dogs to chase wild animals. I think that not chasing wild animals would be great...however, we have had no luck with training our dogs not to chase outdoor animals. Sarah caught a blue jay last year, and Sydney caught a bunny a few weeks ago (the bun's head was in her mouth). In both of these instances, I yelled "leave it!" "Come!" They complied. Unforunately, the blue jay did not survive. The bunny (miraculously) escaped under our fence and ran away very, very quickly.

 

I guess the only thing I would say regarding Fynne would be to not let your cats outside. If you let the cats outside, then don't let Fynne outside during that time. I think it could cause confusion. As I said, my dogs are different with cats indoors and cats outdoors.

 

~Kelly Deneen

[juliepoudrier]

Originally posted by Mr_Tiki:

Dixie_girl, I don't quite agree with you with regards what animals to get rid of and what not. People try to get rid of harmful animals who give them diseases (rats, roaches, etc). But a bunny, or a bird, are hardly harmful.

Mr Tiki,

It's all a matter of perception as to which animals are good and which ones are pests. While you enjoy watching the rabbit--the gardner who finds damage to his produce from rabbits isn't likely to feel the same way. Rabbits also carry tapeworms. I love birds and was a long-time birdwatcher, but I certainly don't cry over the deaths of grackles, starlings, or house (English) sparrows, especially when they're running native species out of nest boxes and habitat or hogging feeders and keeping all the little birds like chickadees, titmice, and juncos away. I like blue jays, but I don't like to see them steal babies out of other birds' nests. I would *never* harm a bird of prey, but it really pisses me off when they take my chickens. That said, I don't encourage my dogs to kill stuff because I don't want to have to deal with the remains and the possibility of exposure to parasites and disease that could occur.

 

If one of my animals did mortally injure some small critter, I would consider it my responsibility to put that critter out of its misery.

 

As for dogs and cats, I agree with the others who have suggested continuing what you are doing not letting Fynne and Punkin out at the same time. There always a chance of an accident that way, but in the meantime you both could be working on her to not chase cats. Dogs can learn that it's okay to chase some things and not others. Twist loves to chase squirrels but wouldn't dream of chasing a cat. She'll chase seagulls and will run/swim geese off a pond but won't bother chickens or ducks in the back yard (or in the case of ducks, in someone else's back yard). If Fynne were mine I think I would just teach her not to chase anything. That way you don't have to worry about teaching her to distinguish good from bad. It would be simpler for her and you.

 

J.

[Dixie_Girl]

Originally posted by Mr_Tiki:

But a bunny, or a bird, are hardly harmful.

LOL Y'all ain't been in Texas long if my understanding is correct. But a while back, a long while back, there was an instance in Texas where the jack rabbits had an outbreak of rabies. Hoards of them invaded, I believe an Air Force base, I am thinking Andrews, we lived in Abilene, so I don't think it was Dyess, anyway, everyone was afraid of going out cuz these rabbits were everywhere and ATTACKING whoever they saw! Being young, I thought it was funny! Not the rabies part, but the pics we saw of these rabbits everywhere and people running from them! And as others have stated, they can give worms, depending on time of year. Sorry but they are just as much vermin in the wild as rats are.

 

Miztiki, you are right in assuming Fynne may not recognize Punkin in the dark. But, I believe you can train a dog not to chase particular animals. There may be sight hunters but even they have a keen sense of smell. And up close, they can tell the diff. Otherwise, coon hounds wouldn't be worth a damn!

[Jo&Tex]

I have to agree with Dixie Girl about PETA.

My local library subscribes to their newsletter so I always thumb through it. There are more ads to get me to buy shirts with slogans and cute bunnies than anything of substance.

They were recently on a tear, bashing no-kill shelters. I just shake my head. I'm all for awareness about cruelty (I live with Tex remember) but PETA is all about fads and fashion.

[Miztiki]

While I appreciate everyone's replies, some more than others, I still haven't been given any advice on how to dampen her prey drive.

 

Fynne came to me with a squirrel obsession. She'd run from tree to tree to tree (we have 3 acres and many trees), jumping up on them and not spending any time doing what dogs normally do in a yard.

 

I broke her of that obsession and also taught her on leash to ignore a squirrel. If she's off leash and outside with me, and she sees a squirrel a couple hundred feet away, she's gone (unless I notice it first anyway).

 

Had I raised her from a puppy then I can pretty much guarantee you that this wouldn't be happening.

 

I sat outside with her for an hour yesterday while I watered my plants. She never gave more than a passing glance to the squirrels. Who here can advise me on how to get the same from her when she is further away from me and sees a squirrel?