Split from the Gallery thread

[Sue R]

Thanks, Jodi - you read my mind!

[Kyrasmom]

Add me to the list of people who are happy that Quinn is going to be OK. There's nothing worse than worrying about those we love...regardless of the number of feet.

 

Add me also to the list of those who feel that the use of the term Barbie Collis is thrown around in a derogative manner by many on the list. Much in the same way that it's used elsewhere to describe less than brilliant women.

 

I bristled more than a few times but then I stopped caring. I know my dogs, I love them and I don't care what anybody else thinks or calls them as that is not MY problem. I think there could be more thoughtful ways to differentiate the "working" strains from the "show" strains from the "sport" strains but it doesn't change what I feel for my dogs or the respect that I have for other people's dogs.

 

I am saddened though that the need to ridicule a dog still exists.

[Shetlander]

Originally posted by Sue R:

I doubt that I have contributed any positive to your questions, and I hope someone can do a better job than I have managed.

No, I appreciate the response. I know I'm on the fringe of this conversation. I do wonder how the Jack Russell people pulled off having the AKC call their dogs Parson Russell Terriers though. I also know that people on these Boards generally feel very passionate about Border Collies and where they may be headed.

 

Thanks for the good wishes with Quinn. Even though I made mistakes in where I got him, I couldn't ask for a more wonderful dog with many wonderful Border Collie qualities.

[Katelynn & Gang]

Liz,

 

I am sure Quinn is an awesome dog because of the way you talk of him. No mistake there! Anyone would be grateful to own such a dog that will excel as a pet, in sports, and maybe even hobby herding.

 

It is the "breeding" that produce Border Collies for things other then their ability to work that get labeled Sport Collies and Barbie Collies. We do use these names in discussions because it is highly unlikely that someone is going to mistake just what sort of dogs from what sort of breeding we are indicating to for educational reasons using these names. I hope you can understand this and will not be offended by it any longer. It helps many people understand by using different names for the different types, the names are just a tool.

 

We emphasize that working bred is the way to go because that is the only way to keep this breed as it was, is, and hopefully always will be. In order to keep this breed we must emphasize this to extreme levels to keep up with the American Kennel Club?s influence on the public.

 

Many people who run, volunteer, or own rescues will also agree wholeheartedly with us on this subject. That does not stop them from loving and caring for their rescues (Including I, who has two rescues at home and two forever in my heart), for even those dogs need and deserver love. Rescuers have a great understanding why it is so important to keep this breed a working breed because they see it daily when dogs are breed incorrectly for other reasons and they stand beside us in this fight for what is right.

 

In emphasizing working bred, it is sometimes mistaken that we think anything below working bred isn?t worthy of being loved and cared for but that isn?t the case at all. We just do not support people breeding dogs for other reasons then working ability or people supporting breeders breeding dogs for other reason then working ability.

 

Rescue is a great outlet for people who love this breed as a working breed but do not feel as though they will be beneficial by trialing and breeding dogs or just do not want to trial to the level needed to breed (for whatever reason).

 

So, they take the most important part of all and love all the dogs of this amazing breed end up unwanted, for whatever reason.

 

I sure hope I explained this well.

 

Katelynn

[Shetlander]

Originally posted by Kyrasmom:

I bristled more than a few times but then I stopped caring. I know my dogs, I love them and I don't care what anybody else thinks or calls them as that is not MY problem. I think there could be more thoughtful ways to differentiate the "working" strains from the "show" strains from the "sport" strains but it doesn't change what I feel for my dogs or the respect that I have for other people's dogs.

Thanks for summing up so well what I've been trying to say! Exactly. It doesn't warm my hear to hear my dog called a Barbie Collie, but I can generally ignore it. I do find it annoying when I read that he shouldn't even be considered a poorly bred Border Collie. After all, I joined these Boards and not the Working Stockdog Boards for a reason. The thing is there are people out there who are turning away from some otherwise very sound arguments because of posts that appear belittling, dismissive, angry or self-righteous. And if a person builds up a head of steam, I reckon he or she could even cover all those aspects in one post

 

I'm quite new to this breed so I haven't been banging my head on a wall for years trying to convince people who simply cannot or will not hear my argument clearly. I'm on lists where I read the whole "function will follow form" point of view. I'm sure years and years of that sort of attitude and intention in breeding takes its toll. It's just my general experience that hostility doesn't do much to open minds that are closed or even simply taken aback. But if the intent is to drive off annoying people, it can do the trick.

[juliepoudrier]

Liz,

At one time there was someone (Margaret Wheeler, for those of you who remember her) on this forum who was involved in the whole JRT vs. Parson Russell terrier thing as she had working JRTs. I'm pretty sure she described what she knew about how the JRT folks stopped AKC from usurping the name. Unfortunately, I believe those posts were all "before the crash" and so may not exist anymore. But I imagine if you were to go to the JRT society (whatever their name is) website, you might find the story of how they fought the kennel club and won.

 

J.

[Eileen Stein]

>

 

Shetlander, I'm glad Quinn is okay. You must be very relieved. Please don't think for a moment that we don't value your dog and understand your love for him, regardless of his breed or lack thereof. What we're really talking about here is a question of semantics. I'm not sure I can improve on what Melanie and Sue said, but I would start by saying that a breed is a population of dogs being bred for a particular purpose. If the dogs in a given population are being bred for all different things, with no unity of purpose, then you don't really have a single breed.

 

The border collie breed has been shaped and defined by breeding for livestock work. From the moment you start breeding for something different, conceptually the dogs you are breeding are no longer border collies. After you've been breeding for that different goal long enough, they become so different that everyone recognizes they're not the same breed, and eventually the name changes. As I'm sure you know, the Lassie Collie traveled that route, and eventually the collies it descended from had to be renamed border collies to distinguish them from the offshoot that had been bred for show so long that it had become a different breed.

 

Thus, border collies who are being taken onto a different path and being bred to an appearance standard are coming to be known as Barbie Collies. Not just on these Boards, but almost universally, even by KC people, because they are already so recognizably different. The name is a brilliant coinage, really -- it expresses so much. You couldn't substitute show collie or conformation collie, because there already IS a show collie -- the Lassie Collie. But calling a show-bred border collie a Barbie Collie doesn't intend to convey hostility to the dog -- it isn't the dog's fault that it was bred to a standard different from the true (working) border collie standard. If it's a nice, loving, lovable dog, then it's a nice, loving, lovable Barbie Collie. More people would prefer to own it than a fear aggressive border collie with little herding ability. But that fear-aggressive border collie with little herding ability is still a border collie, even though he's a poor specimen of the breed.

 

Look at it this way. A show breed is defined by its breed standard. A Cavalier King Charles Spaniel, for example, is supposed to be fearless in character, weigh no more than 18 pounds, be 12-13" tall at the withers, and have round dark eyes, just to take a few characteristics at random from the breed standard. But there may be individuals who are timid, or weigh 19 pounds, or have light eyes or almond shaped eyes. Does that mean they're not Cavalier King Charles Spaniels? No. There are also individuals who have never been weighed or measured, so they might be within the height and weight range or they might not. Does that mean they're not Cavalier King Charles Spaniels? No, again. The breed is defined by the common goal of those who developed it and continue to shape it, even if not every individual they breed exemplifies the goal.

 

I think it's the same with the border collie. The defining characteristic of the border collie breed is herding ability. A useful dog for herding livestock is the goal that defines the breed, the purpose that the breed coheres around. There may be individuals who are lacking in the traits needed to satisfy that working standard, but they are still border collies. Likewise, there are many that have never been tested to see whether they meet the goal--like the unweighed Cavalier King Charles--but they too are border collies. Only if you depart from that shared goal of border collie breeders and begin to breed for a different goal are the resulting dogs you produce, IMO, not border collies.

 

Long ago, at the end of the dog wars, in one of those discussions about whether a border collie bred for show is still a border collie or not, I tried to explain metaphorically why I think it is not. This has been posted before, and it may be too fanciful to really address the question you asked, but your question reminded me of it so I'll trot it out again:

 

There's an ornamental tree called a "flowering peach." It was developed from peach trees, and looks like a peach tree when in blossom, but does not bear edible fruit. If you look at the nursery list of peach trees, you will find lots of varieties, but not the flowering peach; the flowering peach varieties would be in a separate category, probably under ornamentals with the dogwoods and magnolias. There's a market for the flowering peach, but if you called it a "peach tree" and sold it to a commercial fruit grower, or even to someone who just likes peaches, you would be defrauding them. And if you claimed to be judging "peach trees" and chose a flowering peach as the best one . . . well, that would be a fraud too. When all is said and done, the flowering peach lacks an essential element of a peach tree. A peach tree whose fruit is not very good, or whose fruit is never picked and eaten, is still a peach tree, but a tree that is bred for flowers is something else.

[Eileen Stein]

As for the Jack Russell/Parson Russell question, I've posted this a couple of times on earlier threads, but here it is again:

 

Unfortunately, and contrary to popular belief, the Jack Russell name change didn't come about through pressure from the working JRT people. Here's a brief history of the Jack Russell Terrier vs. AKC experience.

 

Like the border collie, the Jack Russell Terrier was recognized by the AKC against the wishes of most JRT breeders and owners. This occurred in 1997. The JRTCA, the Jack Russell registry, had the same concerns as we do about deterioration of their breed's working ability as a result of AKC registration, and moved aggressively to protect their dogs by invoking what's called their "conflicting organization rule." Under that rule, no one who registered their JRT with the AKC could join or continue as a member of the JRTCA. That meant that they could no longer register dogs with the JRTCA, and could not compete in or judge JRTCA trials. By doing this, the JRTCA effectively prevented the leakage of their good dogs into the AKC. (It didn't hurt that the AKC closed their studbook after three years. But the conflicting organization rule was probably the main reason they closed it -- after three years it was obvious that no one who'd stayed with the JRTCA would be registering with the AKC, so there was no point keeping the book open.)

 

A lawsuit was filed against the JRTCA by one of its affiliate clubs, which did not wish to enforce the conflicting organization rule, and by a couple of JRT breeders who dual registered and whose JRTCA membership was cancelled because they registered with the AKC. Several of the plaintiffs' claims were thrown out before trial as being clearly without legal merit. The case went to trial on the remaining claims, and the judge ruled in favor of the JRTCA. The Court held that there was no legal basis for requiring the JRTCA to change its policy, and that it was free to continue enforcing its conflicting organization rule with respect to its members and activities under its auspices. That decision has since been upheld on appeal.

 

The name change of the AKC breed from Jack Russell Terrier to Parson Russell Terrier had no connection with the lawsuit. The change was proposed by the AKC parent club (then called the JRTAA, and now called the PRTAA), so that the name would be consistent with the British Kennel Club, which is now using the name Parson Russell Terrier. Some of the other overseas Kennel Clubs (e.g. Australia, Ireland) recognize two sizes of the dogs, terming the smaller one "Jack Russell Terrier" and the taller one "Parson Russell Terrier." The breed standard of the AKC JRT specifies the taller size, so there too the name change contributed to international consistency. The AKC went along with the parent club's request. So unfortunately this does not give rise to any hope that we could get AKC to change the name of their Border Collies, since neither AKC nor the BCSA wants to do so.

[SoloRiver]

I know that Barbie Collie is short hand and some people find it funny but is it that much harder to write conformation or show dog?

 

I use "Barbie Collie" because it more adequately expresses my belief: that these dogs are different not only in degree, but in kind. I do not think they are different types of the same dog. I actually believe they are different dogs. And "Barbie Collie" is a convenient label because everyone knows exactly what it means.

 

I think of Sport Collies as a type, not a separate breed -- not yet. Right now I kind of think of them as warmblood sporthorses. In and of itself there's nothing wrong with that but I still don't see the point, since there's no need to breed FOR sports. Pretty much any random Border Collie is going to be a no-brainer good sports dog, thanks to its working heritage.

 

I love all dogs. Again, I don't see that pointing out differences equals insult. It's just calling a spade a spade. My favorite dog is a carelessly-bred herding dog of middling talent with anxiety problems and overall not the greatest example of his breed. It doesn't make me think less of him, value him less, or love him any less, oh no, it surely does not do that.

 

But do I think he should have been bred? No.

 

Would I ever even think of breeding him (assuming he still had his gonads, which he does not)? No.

 

Do I try to pretend he is an exemplar of his breed? No. Do I pretend that he is something he is not? No. He is the dog of my heart and that's all that matters to me. I don't care what other people call him. His value to me has nothing to do with what other people think of him.

 

No one else should be bothered or offended by this discussion either. There's no logical reason to be. There are way too many chips being carried on way too many shoulders here.

[Shetlander]

Originally posted by Kate, Dice, Cue, and Rev:

Rescue is a great outlet for people who love this breed as a working breed but do not feel as though they will be beneficial by trialing and breeding dogs or just do not want to trial to the level needed to breed (for whatever reason).

I agree and when I look for my next Border Collie, it will most likely be through rescue. When I was looking for a Border Collie, I talked with people who had Border Collies. Since I do agility, these were agility people and it should be no surprise that I was directed to sports breeders though I did consider rescue as well. No one I knew or on any of my agility lists talked about getting working bred dogs. That's a concept I only learned after I brought home my puppy. I really wonder if I've ever seen a truly working bred BC (Quinn's grandparents trialed quite successfully from what I can tell but I know that means little).

 

Anyway, I have no intention of taking up herding, though with Quinn I have learned to say never say never. For that reason alone, I think rescue will be my best bet. Plus those postings of Border Collies in need of a home really twist at my heart. I just wish there was time enough for all the dogs I'd love to own in my life

[AK dog doc]

I'm with Melanie. I have an indiffernetly-bred BC, Finn, who I totally adore. I would run into a burning building to save him - but I would not breed him. (Can't, having neutered him, even if I wanted to.) He's not "typey" enough - by which I mean he only moderately meets the breed standard, which is The Work. In all other resepcts - soundness, temperament, bidability, keenness, general health and constitution, heart - he'd contribute well to the breed. But in him the separate elements just don't gel into a really good stockdog. Doesn't mean he's not a fantastic DOG - just not a fantastic STOCKDOG.

 

I also am very glad to hear Quinn is going to be fine (I have a weakness for that name, BTW, as one of my fave BC patients is named that, and Finn has a gigantic crush on her as well; I find he has good judgement in these matters). I, like others here, don't think that anyone means any disrespect of Quinn or any similary-bred dogs but using the "Barbie" term, and that they're only trying to designate what the breeding goals were in producing that particular dog. It might not be much comfort that we tell you we know Quinn is an excellent dog and completely worthy of every ounce of the love you clearly feel - but I hope it helps.

 

BTW, I like the peach analogy, Eileen, and I'm glad you brought it out again... it sort of diffuses the intensity of the emotional reaction, since most of us here are not passionately devoted to our trees in the same way we are to our dogs. Perhaps the point is more clearly seen without the veil of emotion clouding our view.

[Howdyjabo]

I use "Barbie Collie" in disgust. But its when they are being marketed or held up as an example of a well bred Border Collie.

 

Theres lots that you can take offence at--- but if the shoe don't fit you personally-- don't wear it.

 

If I had Eileens peach tree in my yard -- I could call it a flowering peach or a peach tree-- and it wouldn't matter one bit.

Now if I took a graft off that tree and tried to sell it or tell someone to get one just like it-- I better get a little more particular with what I call it.

[Guest HerdnDogs]

Originally posted by Eileen Stein:

Cathy, robust disagreement is welcome on these Boards, but flaming is not. Flaming is personal insult. The above quote is a good illustration. Nobody flamed Maggie. People disagreed with her, and with her breeding goals, and said so forcefully. That is legitimate debate. Penny's post, which you object to, merely quoted Maggie's own words. Any conclusions which people drew from reading Maggie's words were just that -- conclusions they drew from Maggie's words.

 

 

Eileen,

Where do you draw the line between robust debate, and Flaming.

 

"quote" I don't care what color a dog is,but I do care about people breeding for color and then try to pass it off as breeding for working line's!"unquote"

 

Would this be classed as robust debate, or accusing someone of lying? It's certainly a personal insult, and implies that the owner of the dog is trying to con people, by passing it off as something it isn't.

 

"Quote" Token, only two generations away from ISDS, was too interested in me to take any notice of the sheep, whereas Neo, with at least eight generations of show breeding, in Australia behind him, was keen, very strong, but very willing to obey Keith, without being put off at all. Unquote"

 

That can hardly be construed as someone trying to pass a dog off as anything other than it is. Maggie is surprised at the results, and openly says so, but the remark was taken totally out of context, and used as an example of ignorance. It my not be openly flaming, but neither can it be called "robust debate", although the word Bait is certainly suitable.

 

Cathy

[Kyrasmom]

Originally posted by KillerH:

I use "Barbie Collie" in disgust. But its when they are being marketed or held up as an example of a well bred Border Collie.

 

Theres lots that you can take offence at--- but if the shoe don't fit you personally-- don't wear it.

 

If I had Eileens peach tree in my yard -- I could call it a flowering peach or a peach tree-- and it wouldn't matter one bit.

Now if I took a graft off that tree and tried to sell it or tell someone to get one just like it-- I better get a little more particular with what I call it.

Thank you, I agree completely with you. I think you've hit the nail squarely on the head.

[Shetlander]

Originally posted by SoloRiver:

No one else should be bothered or offended by this discussion either. There's no logical reason to be. There are way too many chips being carried on way too many shoulders here.

Well, I'm glad I've been informed how I should feel Interesting though that if I feel certain words may impede useful dialogue or come across as offensive, I'm the one with the chip on my shoulder.

 

Just because I'm happy with Quinn doesn't mean I don't understand the difference in his breeding and therefore very likely in his working ability. I guess I really didn't understand that some people on these Boards would actually consider my dog not to be a Border Collie. You have more of my view, Melanie, that he would be a type of the breed not a separate breed altogether. I can follow the reasoning for that point of view. I'm so new to the breed, I can only say how I see things, not debate with any authority. Just not sure why we'd be welcome on these boards if my dog isn't a Border Collie.

 

Maybe there needs to be another name change like there was to distinquish Border Collies from the Rough Collie. Perhaps they could be called Working Collies though that probably doesn't affect the AKC registering them as Border Collies. I find it interesting that the AKC closed the books on JRT's after 3 years but it seems Border Collie registration will remain open for at least the foreseeable future. I wonder if this is due to the high demand for sports collies.

[Eileen Stein]

 

Would this be classed as robust debate, or accusing someone of lying? It's certainly a personal insult, and implies that the owner of the dog is trying to con people, by passing it off as something it isn't. >>

 

Cathy, in one of her earliest posts, Maggie wrote:

 

>

 

I took this as an assertion that herding ability was a top breeding priority for her, and I assume Mike took it that way too. One of the threats to the traditional border collie, bred for work, that we face in the US is people who claim to be breeding for herding ability when they are actually breeding for conformation and dogsports, and not doing any of the things necessary to breed for stockwork. That is a serious issue to us, and Maggie's posts and website made it pretty clear that was what she was doing (with colour thrown in besides). Mike called her on that and so did I. We were addressing an issue of substance about her breeding policies and practices. She could be deliberately lying, I suppose, or she could be acting out of ignorance of what it takes to breed for working ability. We did not address that question. If Mike had said, "You're a liar!" it would have been akin to your saying "You are . . . vultures . . . quite pathetic, really," and I would have warned him on it.

 

 

That can hardly be construed as someone trying to pass a dog off as anything other than it is. Maggie is surprised at the results, and openly says so, but the remark was taken totally out of context, and used as an example of ignorance. >>

 

No, THAT isn't what was construed as trying to pass a dog off as anything other than it is. Penny's point in quoting that, along with the sentence which followed it -- "Goes to show, that not only is it impossible to breed the instinct out of them, but you don't need ISDS dogs only, to work sheep." -- was to make a very different substantive point, which she explained in her post. Maggie was basically asserting that dogs retain their herding ability after eight generations of breeding for show -- a very controversial assertion and I would say a false one -- on the flimsy basis that her dog at its first exposure to sheep was keen, and obedient to the trainer. We hear this all the time -- "Oh, show breeding hasn't hurt our dogs, they've got it all, they'll go right round the sheep!" -- and it's a false conclusion based on a false premise that's damaging to the future of the breed.

 

As Penny wrote: "I also am reasonably sure that Arnpriors would be justified in skepticism if someone crowed to her about their scent detection dogs on the basis of a dog finding a bit of hotdog at the end of a short track. Arnpriors would be equally justified in skepticism if the claim was made also on the basis of an ancestor of the dog having located a few treats at the end of several short tracks." IOW, she was taking issue with Maggie on a matter of substance -- trying to show by analogy that her conclusion that "it's impossible to breed the instinct out of them" -- was based on wholly inadequate evidence. She was not hurling insults at her.

 

Hope that makes the distinction clear.

[mike goracke]

Better late than never.I have read many post by both Eileen and PennyT and have found them nothing but well thought out and done with taste.I wish I could say the same of my post's.As far as breeding for color, I would like to read your opinion on this topic Cathy.Instead your jumping on PennyT for crossposting,Eileen for making a polite comment, and me for being rude.Yes, PennyT was crossposting,Eileen was making polite comment's and yes I was rude.

[airbear]

Originally posted by SoloRiver:

No one else should be bothered or offended by this discussion either. There's no logical reason to be.

I'm kinda confused, too, as to why this is causing such a sore point. I fondly refer to my little dog as a borderline collie. She is so 'registered' with NADAC, which lets you have fun with your dog's "breed", and if you look on the run order, it will say Wicked - Borderline Collie . I don't think Wick feels marginalized.

 

She is a borderline collie to me because, though she exhibits a lot of border collie characteristics (high-drive, seems to be eyeing things, moves like greased lightning), she is useless on stock. A biscuit eater. No interest, except maybe to get the sheep to race her occasionally, and this is after being exposed to sheep nearly every Saturday since Summer 2002.

 

I can make it look like she's doing something, because she has a great down, she responds to very subtle body movement, her tail is docked so she can't wave it over her head (though if you look close, you'll see it's pointing to the sky) and she has some directionals from agility. OTOH, I can also have her go through drive and cross-drive panels while standing at the post, and then she'll do the pen - all without sheep on the field. (Side note: She also will do weave poles while sheep graze a few feet away.)

 

Is she a sport collie? Sure! Barbie? Well, not enough hair, but I'd accept that too. Condo collie? Yup, guilty of that. True working border collie? Nuh-uh.

 

I don't see the pejorative in someone using the term "Barbie Collie" in reference to my dog. We don't show (stop laughing, those of you that have seen her), and she's a rescue, so it's not like I lined the pockets of a breeder who is producing dogs like her. I am at peace with what she is - a happy little dog who aspires to nothing more than chasing her ball, playing with me and Bear (and occasionally Lou) and sleeping. Call her anything you want, just don't call her late for dinner!

[Jodi]

I was bummed to see that Maggie cross-posted Mike's most recent message back to Cathy's list. A couple of other people there made comments about certain members of this group and this group as a whole ... that made Mike's comments seem rather mild in comparison.

 

Maggie, I'm disappointed.

Cathy, I'm not surprised.

 

Eileen, you might want to lock or delete this thread. It's bound to go nowhere from here.

 

Jodi

[Sue R]

I've thought about "joining" that BCC list to see what it was all about, but decided it wasn't worth the irritation.

 

On the whole, any of my friends or acquaintances who have visited the USBCC boards and are familiar with other lists and boards (both dog-oriented or not), tell me how polite this board is. I guess that's partly due to our "good shepherd".

 

Perhaps both boards/lists are examples of the leader/owner/moderator setting the tone for the entire board or list. And you can read anything you want into that comment, because that's just what I mean!

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Kristi, great post and a terrific testimony to the satisfaction that rescue can give (well, unless you aspired to running an Open course with her someday, LOL).

 

I was SO tickled on the other thread when Tonya posted. Please note - she said, I'm an AKC breeder but I'm not here to discuss that. I haven't checked this morning but I THINK everyone respected that, yes?

 

If a person comes to a public forum for Harley afficianados to learn about Harleys, and pick their brains about big engines and whether leather-covered or painted fiberglass saddlebags are best - you'd expect things to stay fairly friendly. If that person wants to talk about how only Honda makes real choppers, you'd expect some lively and pasionate debate.

 

If that person says they ride a Kawasaki but puts Harley labels all over it, and claims that they have just as much right to wear Harley gear as the people who put time and effort into keeping real Harleys, you know things will probably get pretty ugly.

[laurie etc]

Originally posted by Sue R:

I've thought about "joining" that BCC list to see what it was all about, but decided it wasn't worth the irritation. ...

I actually think I was on the original BC list- but when the list owner shut it down, I just never joined the BCC list. SO I don't know about the BCC, but the BC list was a lot of irritation, arguing and flaming; not much substance.

[Sue R]

Let's try a couple of paraphrases -

 

If someone gets a "conformation collie" or "sport collie" and they claim it's just as much a stockdog as a "real" Border Collie, things might get a little bit heated. After all, the odds are against it but, if their dog can prove it's got what it takes to work (not "if only" and "but if"), then it's a functional stockdog.

 

If someone has or produces "conformation collies" or "sports collies" and claims that there is no way that the stockworking instinct can be bred out of them, things might get real hot. That way of thinking is just plain wrong.

 

Now, aren't these the same people who feel that they can (or should) breed to fix color, coat, eye shape, ear shape, posture, structure, reduced focus or intensity, or sports-oriented talents - and deny that there's a need to breed for stockworking ability?

 

Sorry, doesn't compute!

[Eileen Stein]

>

 

Oh Jodi, you must be mistaken! I distinctly recall Maggie telling us that she was only here to learn, and Cathy telling us that she was vehemently opposed to crossposting, especially crossposting "used as a snipe." How could she permit postings that are so in violation of her principles?

 

Well, this is a public forum. I'm not going to take down the thread because people are quoting us elsewhere and trashing us. Nothing posted here reflects discredit on any of the posters, IMO (except that the discrepancy between words and conduct noted above does reflect discredit on Maggie and Cathy, but that's their doing). If future problems develop, we can deal with it then.

[Denise Wall]

Sue,

 

From what I can tell reading my all breed genetics lists over nearly a decade, it is not uncommon for show people to believe that correct conformation takes rigorous selection every generation while working traits like "the" herding instinct are fixed and require no selection at all.

 

In reality, behavioral traits are MUCH more complex to reproduce correctly than structural traits. Herding behaviors are not inherited as a package but instead appear to have not only individual heritabilities, but a range of expression for each trait. Success in obtaining the complete package for one's stockdog needs is a difficult venture. The traits need to be remixed properly from the parents to the offspring each breeding. Dogs not bred with continuous selective pressure for working traits have little chance of having the pieces fit together effectively each generation. Dogs not evaluated extensively for their expression of these individual traits and for the whole package are not likely to be crossed to the correct mate to result in the right package in the offspring.

 

Once there are pieces missing or in the wrong places, and this can only be known from actually training and working the dogs to a high standard, it's no easy matter to put Humpty Dumpty back together again.