Split from the Gallery thread

[Dixie_Girl]

Am I not correct in stating, "You get what you breed for"? Unfortunately, breeding is not a generalized endeavor. If you breed for just working sheep instinct and ability, and you get a dog colored, formed, sized, eared, etc. that you like, you're lucky. If you breed for just color, and get a pup that will have herding instinct and ability, you're lucky. So, it really comes down to what is important to you. I have seen BCs that couldn't be called pretty by their own mothers, but could work sheep like the sheep were being remote controlled. And vice versa. And everything in between. What ever you do in breeding, if you promote one charateristic, you will demote another. And the fact is, if you breed dogs that are proven to work sheep well, you will get pups that work sheep well. Not all the pups will. So if you can take the optimum dog and bitch to breed and still not get 100% of the pups that will also be champs, what do you reckon the odds are when something else is the priority in breeding?

 

Well, just some of my thoughts.

[Guest blessedmom]

I have seen BCs that couldn't be called pretty by their own mothers, but could work sheep like the sheep were being remote controlled

 

Ha Ha I have seen dogs like this!

[mike goracke]

I agree 100% with you Dixie Girl. Having been in the horse biz all my life I know that color has alway's sold. I try to buy horses out of own son's or daughter's that have earned money (cutters and reiners)and if they have some color that's a bonus. I need the same thing in a horse as I do a dog. Decent conformation, biddible and ton's of god givin talent. So to me if your not breeding stock with all three of these trait's why are (or should)you be breeding at all!The horse market is at it's lowest point in twenty year's,(the good one's are alway's high)the bc rescue's are alway's full of dog's and then you have people talking about breeding for a certin color! WOW

[Blueborders]

Ok, I don't post often but I do read the board daily. I'll say my peace and go back to my crate ;o)

 

Arnpriors didn't come on this board to have her breeding policies judged (Unless I missed a post from her somewhere). It was brought up by another board member.

 

She clearly has IMO gorgeous dogs while also breeding selectively after health testing, etc. She's also active in many dog sports and has done some herding. She's accomplished alot with her dogs. She stated herself that she joined the boards to learn more.

 

We can all clearly read the many posts and lengthy discussions about breeding working dogs vs. nonworking dogs. I am all for that. I'm not a breeder..never have and never will be.(The only exception is that I did breed my mare and have a gorgeous filly out of the deal but that was after much thought/research/soul searching & yes, I bred for working ability and color)

 

I love this breed dearly but I don't place all the blame on AKC either. (and I'm not delving into that discussion again ;O)

 

Let's just welcome her to the board w/out her being grilled. I bet we all can learn from her as well as she can learn from those on the board much more knowledgeable about the world of herding than me.

 

Back to my crate now...

[Dixie_Girl]

Blueborders, I don't know who you think was "grilling" her. I don't feel I was. I do welcome her to the board, and I like everyone has much to learn from others experience. That is one of the points of this board. But if someone says something or states something and someone disagrees or feels maybe another way is better, (and I mean anything from house breaking to nipping to chasing their tail, etc.)and they don't state their opinion on it, where will the "learning" come in? I mean, sure we can all post stuff our dogs are doing/not doing, and what we are doing about it, and then everyone can say, "oh, yeah, okay, thats good.". Then walk away from their puter saying, "gee, I had a dog doing that same thing, and XXX really worked. Oh, well, at least I didn't upset anyone by stating I might know a different way!"

 

But then, that is just my lil ol opinion.

[mike goracke]

Iam not trying to come off as the bad guy here..but....I'll call black black and white white. I went too the web site and looked at her dog's, and if chasing A group of sheep around a pen with their tail in the air is a well planned out breeding I would hate to see the cull's.I don't care what color a dog is,but I do care about people breeding for color and then try to pass it off as breeding for working line's!

[Caroline]

"She has IMO gorgeous dogs, while ALSO (caps mine) breeding selectively after ealth testing..."

 

What is the first word in the description of her dogs?

Gorgeous. That is how this breeding program does not use "the work" first in selecting breed worthiness. Yes her dogs work in activities that require intelligence, trainability and brains. However, the dog that has grown out of selecting for stock working ability is so much more beyond all of that.

 

Blueborders, don't grill her you say? She listed her website, she says she is a breeder. If this forum doesn't stand up to the working standards the ABCA/USBCHA desire, who will?

Eileen's post says it well. The situation in Great Britain is also different, as the kennel club as been separate from working lines for a long time.

Caroline

[Pat W.]

Um I'm neither a breeder nor expert but when I went to the site and saw the picture of the BM, I thought (briefly) it was an Aussie...maybe the picture doesnt do the dog justice? Also Im trying to remember what I've read but in my opinion breeding for color is playing with fire. I see no reference to stud dogs being used for obtaining the merle coloring other her male NEO who appears to be the sire of the latest litter. I KNOW that Aussies have the problem of Homozygus or Lethal Whites when merle to merle breedings are done. I BELIVE the same is applicable to Borders as well?

[Eileen Stein]

Yes it is, Pat, but I'm sure a longtime breeder of blue merles would be aware of that, and this doesn't sound like a person who would be heedless about it.

[Howdyjabo]

"The opportunity for herding where I live, is slim, but, I'm hopeing to change that as soon as possible."

 

Until then you have no business BREEDING Border Collies.

I agree with everyone else that what you are doing with dogs(minus the Breeding of Border Collies) is VERY impressive.

I also agree that you are "looking" for the right things-- but untill you fully train a dog(or more) to EXCELL at herding-- you have no idea how to SEE what you are looking for.

 

I know my saying this hurts your pride and your feelings-- and I am truley sorry for that. But hang around anyhow and keep "looking" . You are an ideal Border Collie owner that any breeder would be proud for you to have one of their dogs. Thats how you could contribute to the BREED-- support breeders of working Border Collies.

 

And going for a certain color is useless-- so why bother? The "colors" have always been an odity and should always remain an odity.

[bcherder]

Killer H.........where did you get the crazy notion that colors are an oddity?

 

Do you know how common the tri-colored border collie is? Do you also know that most people I've run into through the years have said that a tri-color couldn't be purebred because border collies only come in black and white. I know an old farmer that hits the tri-colored pup over the head with a pipe wrench because he thinks that no one will buy them!!! There have been good strong working ISDS lines producing merle dogs, Blue merles......red merles........slate merles...

and they are worked and trialed in the UK. YES...ISDS trials.

Should these dogs have been hit over the head at birth because they were an oddity?

I would caution you to NOT think in just black and white..........there is usually a lot of gray out there as well.

donna

[Arnpriors]

As it's obvious that I'm not going to get the chance to learn, and that whatever I say, will be wrong, I don't see any point in remaining a member.

 

mike goracke , If you can tell the herding ability of a dog from one picture and it's colour, you must be far more talented then I've given you credit for. Your manners are worse than my herding capabilities though.

 

P. A. Wellheuser I know more than enough NOT to breed merle to merle, and am more than aware that the merle gene is a semi lethal gene, and the repercussions of putting two together. Consequently, I have never done so, and have no plans to do so in the future.

 

I shall continue to try and find some sheep and a decent trainer.

 

I'd like to be able to say that I have enjoyed my time on the list, and had the opportunity to have learned, but unfortunately, I'm not a liar.

[bcherder]

well.......I feel like I just watched sharks who smelled blood and began to circle.

 

I don't do conformation. I work my dogs. On sheep. I do not trial at this time but feel comfortable in saying that I've had border collies a long time and have a good understanding of working them on livestock. I also hope that I'm a little wiser about the breed than I used to be. BUT don't feel that I can ever learn enough or ever stop learning.

 

When someone comes to your home and wants your assistance with something..........do you insult them? Do you chase them away rather than share you expertise? (I'm talking to those who Honestly know something of what they speak...NOT the new border collie owners on here who think they can preach to the choir) they read it here and begin spouting it ! Live it awhile before preaching it.

 

I'm not proud of how Maggie was treated on this board. I hope that next time someone subscribes to this board that doesn't conform to everything you've read here on the boards .......you might reflect on how you acted this time....and maybe learn something.

[Eileen Stein]

Maggie:

 

>

 

That's too bad -- I hope you will reconsider. How could anything that was said on this thread prevent you from learning if you want to learn? I actually put some effort into writing a post that I hoped you might be able to learn from, and several other posters were very supportive and admiring toward you. I can see how some of the things posted might have made you feel uncomfortable, but not how they could deny you a chance to learn.

 

What exactly was it that you wanted to learn? If you have questions, I feel sure people will try to answer them. If you read on the Boards a while, you'll find that the members here try to respond helpfully to nearly every question.

 

bcherder:

 

>

 

That's a little melodramatic, don't you think? Maggie encountered a point of view that's different from hers, and some people who criticized her breeding goals. But as far as I know, pixels can't draw blood.

 

>

 

Good. I don't either.

 

>

 

No one here refused to share their expertise with Maggie. I don't recall her asking for assistance, but if she did, please point out her request to me and I will give whatever assistance I can. I'm sure others will also.

[Howdyjabo]

Oh I don't know........ history

history doesn't support tri-s being called a "color" dog -- Is tri even a recessive gene?

 

And I am not going to knock "color" dogs in the head-- they just should be bred to dogs that will minimise not emphasise those recessive genes.

 

History dictates how the Border Collie should be bred--- The same goals that the original breeders had--- need to remain to keep the breed stable.

They didn't breed for colors-- I would be willing to bet that they bred AWAY from "colors".

 

I am sorry shes not open right now.

 

If she had read the mission statement(its says to read this before posting) she already knew everything I said to her-but chose to ignore it.

 

She should have left the web site with the color issue and breeding issue out and then she could have stayed around forever without being challenged.

But she didn't-- and she posted supporting her abilities to breed Border Collies.

 

She Threw blood into the water.......

[Jodi]

Eileen -

 

I didn't feel the comment about being circling sharks was all that far off the mark. There are comments such as "this might get good" and there are five posts about sitting down and eating popcorn and ice cream in preparation of "great reading material."

 

I've "known" Maggie via the internet for a couple of years now, and believe me when I tell you, we've gone head to head over the issues that are being brought up here. But, we've become friends and gained a lot of respect for eachother. I think Maggie is on the verge of coming to the "dark side," or is much closer than most of the breed ring people I've talked to lately. At the very least, she has a lot of respect for the "working dog," unlike most conformation people who feel we own "coyote dogs" or "mangy mutts."

 

Maggie, I wish you wouldn't leave, but believe me when I tell you, I'm not done with you yet! hee hee

 

Jodi

(p.s. - Sorry if this post doesn't make sense. I just got done watching "Dealing Dogs" ... the HBO special ... and I can tell you, we have far worse problem here in the States than people breeding for conformation. I am just plain sick to my stomach over what I saw of C.C. Baird and his entire operation ...)

[Eileen Stein]

>

 

Jodi, I'm embarrassed to say the popcorn/ice cream stuff just blew right past me. I thought it was just chat, and didn't really pay it any attention. Re-reading it, I guess I can see how it can be read the way you're saying. But the "great reading material" is obviously the "READ THIS FIRST" post that somebody referred Maggie to, not anything that was going to be said on this thread. And I still don't get what the Cave Troll means.

 

>

 

Then I really don't see why she was so upset at people here raising the same issues.

 

>

 

Well, that's good, I guess. I mean, I suppose it's good that someone who breeds for merle coloration and shows in conformation has respect for the "working dog." But then I REALLY don't see why she was so upset at what we were saying.

 

Maggie is welcome to stay. No one suggested otherwise. Everybody welcomed her, and the majority of posters were effusive in their welcome. But if she does stay, she's going to hear advocacy on behalf of the working dog, because a lot of that goes on here.

 

We are not the dark side.

[sea4th]

well.......I feel like I just watched sharks who smelled blood and began to circle

I don't think this is too far off mark either.

 

Maggie didn't come here beating the conformation drum for all to hear. If she did, then I could understand some of the responses. She didn't come her to extoll the delights and virtues of blue merles. She came here to learn about working dogs. She was just honest about what she'd done with border collies up until now. If she hadn't included her website, she would have been just another person seeking to learn about border collies, no?

 

Her preference for merles seems to have been taken up by some and translated into profiteering. That's not the Maggie that I know.

 

I used to show *other* breeds in the conformation ring. Border collies changed my way of looking at the whole conformation game. I've told the story on many occasions of how bc conformation people surrounded me like sharks, at a breed demo at a major show around here and called my dogs crippled pieces of crap---direct quote, never mind that my dogs could wipe their feet on any of them when it came to working livestock. They then proceeded to get me and my scruffy band of border collies banned from their venue---that is, bringing my dogs to a "Meet the Breed" event during a big show by getting the rules changed. What was then substituted as the ideal border collie to the public were Barbie collies.

 

I just about fell over when Maggie said she though my Satchmo was beautiful---I even think he is homely.

 

Maggie can bring a lot to the table here. I'd like to think that she can also learn a lot from the working dog people here. Geez. Give her a break.

 

Maggie---this is for you----neither Jodi, nor Donna, nor I are giving up on you.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I don't see where Maggie all of a sudden gets such a thin skin. I've known her myself from other online communities. Maggie, you can be a lively debater - you can take it and give it back with the best of them - at least that's what I remember. You're also very nice and I know you are very smart and internet savvy.

 

So what on earth do you think is going to happen when you come to a community whose stated purpose is to promote the livestock working dog, as OPPOSED to dogs bred specifically for sport, conformation, or anything else - and then carefully explain your breeding goals which are in direct opposition to those outlined in the "Read This First" sticky?

 

Were we supposed to say, awww, that's nice . . .what pretty poopies you have . . .

 

We DO have to make it very clear that there IS a line on this issue between you and those of us who support breeding ONLY for livestock work. It's not "blood in the water" or nastiness (well, not intrinsically, anyway) - unless someone gets personal. When someone shows up promoting alternate (and incompatible) points of view on the breeding issue, that person needs to be prepared for some passion to arise.

 

Popcorn is for the nice lively debates that come up on these occaisions. I'll admit to lighting on these topics and saving them for leisure times and a cup of Russian tea - not because I relish nastiness but because I enjoy seeing our common goals defended from many different angles.

 

We welcome the chance to argue on behalf of the breeders of livestock working dogs. They are the ones who created this breed and maintain it. They deserve our support, even if it means making newcomers a little uncomfortable, who come stating goals which would undermine the breed here in the US. We have a common goal here which is clearly defined, and newcomers who don't share that goal shouldn't be surprised when they face a passionate defense of the communities goals, when the newcomer comes in touting incompatible goals.

 

I don't get why someone who ISN'T prepared for a lively, passionate debate, can't just come and say, "I know you all would really not agree with what I do and I respect that. I've just come to learn from this community and not to debate actively what I do." Instead we get the website in the sig line and the Versatility Breeder Manifesto with all the justifications which of COURSE are going to rile up very lively debate.

 

And then when the fires flare up, we get whining and "See, you guys are just all big meanies." As I said in the beginning, what's up with that? Where's my old friend Maggie who wasn't afraid to take on the rage of the whole Islamic community a couple of years ago?

 

Come on back, put on that flame suit I KNOW you own - I KNOW you'd love this place if you don't go on deliberately picking fights. Well, about breeding issues, I mean.

[sea4th]

Well said, Rebecca. I think Maggie can provide some pretty lively discussions here.

[Miztiki]

I just found an email from Laura (Carson Crazies) dated Feb 22nd (before the start of this thread) where she refers to herself as a cave troll. I emailed back and asked her what the heck is a "cave troll"? She said, "ever heard of Lord of the Rings"? and so on. It has nothing to do with anything bad, she's just been watching movies again. There is nothing to read into it.

 

I had to go back and look at the popcorn/ice cream remarks myself. I thought it was just idle chatter too.

 

I went out of my way to set the tone for what I knew would be coming. I saw her pictures, read her site and thought it was obvious that this was someone who was intelligent and responsible, and I didn't want everyone to jump right on her.

 

Overall I think she was treated with respect and admiration, more so than most who happen onto this board with conformation in mind. I'm sorry she felt the need to leave. I meant it when I said Border Collies could really use someone like her on their side.

[Jodi]

Eileen, you're right. The "good reading material" was referring to the introduction to the boards. I lumped them together ... when they shouldn't have been. I was still reeling (and still am) from watching "Dealing Dogs."

 

I know and you know we're not the "dark side." The conformation world feels that we are, though. And Maggie and I joke about it.

 

Vicki, Rebecca ... great posts.

 

Yes, Maggie can throw down with the best of them. I hope Maggie will stick around, and everyone will have a bit of patience with this one. She's not closed-minded and is willing to look at things from a different perspective. That's more than we can ask of a lot of people. Maggie wrote me privately to tell me about her experience the other day with taking a couple of her dogs herding, and told me that basically she will do whatever it takes to continue. So it seems to me that she's been bitten by "the bug." Good for you, Maggie!

 

Jodi

[bcherder]

Killer H,

 

when you talk of breeding " away" from colors you are still making colors a breeding issue.

 

I used tri-colors as an example to show how people who are not familiar with something , can make it into something strange. Lot's of people

(meaning general public) do not even realize that bcs come in smooth coats either. But they are all around us!!! As are the different colored bcs. Just because you don't see them all the time does NOT mean that they aren't there and working.

 

Historically speaking...........I doubt very much that farmers bred away from colors. Why would they care what color the dog was as long as it worked???? When they were developing this breed, I think color was the last thing they would give any consideration to.

 

 

donna

[Sue R]

I don't believe that anyone here wants to "give up" on Maggie. She sounds like a wonderful person, and someone who loves and cares for her dogs.

 

The only objection folks on the USBCC boards seem to have is to her breeding Border Collies that are not proven by stock work and breeding for color.

 

That said, if she's come here to learn, there is nothing stopping her. I, among many others, hope she will reconsider, stay, read, listen, learn, share, and be a part of the community.

 

I think it's hard (I know it would be for me) if someone feels "attacked" and especially if someone feels that others "look down" on their dogs. Hey, Maggie, we don't look down on your dogs - they are great dogs! So is every dog belonging to everyone on these boards - top-quality working-bred, run-of-the-mill farm-bred, Barbie Collies, BYB or puppy-miller dogs, cross-bred, or who knows what!

 

We just want you to understand that we (in general - there are some dissenters who do not completely advocate or support the goals of the USBCC) believe in breeding based on "the work" and not for other reasons. By work, we mean real, demanding stock work at a high level - not just casual, occasional, "sort of", "if and when I can", or "I know my dog could do that if only he/she had a chance or I had time to train him/her or a real handler could train/handle him/her" stock work.

 

Before that bothers you, no one is advocating the breeding of dogs with unsoundness, inheritable health problems, unsuitable temperaments, etc. - soundness, health, and temperament are all a part of a dog's breedworthiness that are vital to its inherent abilities to work stock well and properly.

 

A bit belated (and maybe too late) but, WELCOME!

[bcherder]

Eileen,

 

I've been accused of being a drama queen a time or two........

 

donna