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Miztiki
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I'm not disputing your reasoning, but it remains that until there is an official (formal) parting of the ways, she has as much right to call her dogs Border Collie's as anyone else.

 

I really wish there were a formal seperation, perhaps we could all enjoy each other a bit more.

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Originally posted by Kyrasmom:

I really wish there were a formal seperation, perhaps we could all enjoy each other a bit more.

That is a nice thought. Do you think that would do it? Some people seem to almost enjoy not enjoying each other.

 

So how did it ever come to pass that there is a Jack Russell Terrier and a Parson Russell Terrier? How did the JRT people swing that?

 

You know, thanks to a well meaning but misguided fill-in vet, I've spent the past 5 days thinking I might lose my puppy to a heart problem and/or that he was headed for crippling dysplasia. It turns out there are issues that must be addressed, but my "real" vet assures me I should have my pal for many years to come and that he will not be limited in his activities.

 

Call Quinn a Barbie Collie if you must, but I feel it's really not a very nice thing to say to me. If he isn't good enough to meet someone's definition of a Border Collie, I'd prefer he was called a Sports Collie. Or maybe call that true Border Collie a Working Collie to differentiate them from all these imposters. All I know is I'm crazy about Quinny and so relieved that he just might be ok.

 

I'll most likely go the rescue route for my next Sports Collie, if that counts for anything. I'm learning a lot from these boards and I know you all love Border Collies in general, whatever your definition of the breed, and your own dogs in particular. But I don't see how speaking harshly or dismissively "on behalf of the dogs" is actually helping the dogs if people feel attacked, defensive and driven away. How are the dogs being helped if there is no dialogue? I really don't get it.

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Guest JoeysMom

I just got caught up on this thread...I, too, would like to clarify that I also thought the initial posts in the thread were nothing but chat/fluff. My apologies to Maggie (and anyone else who thought they were something else)--that was certainly not my intent. I continually learn a lot from these boards and enjoy learning about others' perspectives. I readily encourage anyone who comes to these boards to do the same. Welcome, Maggie. Perhaps we can all continue to learn from one another. After all, isn't that what having a public forum (with plently of lively, passionate discussions) is all about?

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Laura and I were talking earlier today and this thread came up. She felt bad because her popcorn comment was said in all innocence. She was actually fixing to make popcorn and does so regularly. I myself was eating ice cream at the time of my ice cream comment and ate the whole pint! We got a chuckle out of that and talked about baking some chocolate chip cookies when I get to NC.

 

It's not every day that someone like Maggie comes along to our forum. I hope she comes back. Aside from the breeding issue disagreement I have no doubt that she could be a wonderful addition to our little community.

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Shetlander,

 

I must say that I am glad to hear your pup is going to be alright! He is very lucky to have a mom like you that cares so much!

 

No one here cares what he was bred for! All that matters is you love him and that he is going to be alright.

 

We just do not support the breeding or supporting of Border Collies being bred for anything other then their working ability. After all, this is how this amazing breed was bred and kept as it is now as a working dog for so many years!

 

*Using the names Border Collie, Bardie Collie, and Sport Collie just make it easy for us to know what one another is talking about with less mix ups online about what and how something is being said, which there are already a lot of.*

 

There are many dogs out there that were bred for things other then working that should never be bred and that does not make them any less of great dogs that we should all love and enjoy every second with while we are lucky enough to have them!

 

Love your pup with all your heart and never let anyone tell you that you are wrong for it! He is worth all your love and so is his amazing breed.

 

Katelynn

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As an aside. I took Jackson to the vet yesterday to have his leg looked at. While in the room waiting for the doc, I noticed a poster with AKC dogs on it. I found the BC AFTER having to look in the herding section. I looked at the gorgeous, straight, long coat. Then at Jackson's sorta medium long in most places and kinda wavy growing in at least 4 different directions. I looked at the perfect white blaze on his face. Then I looked at Jacksons "white blaze", the one that starts out great at the nose then after an inch fizzles out to a line so thin you practically have to get personal to see it. Then I looked at his bright white colors. Then I looked at Jackson's Carlolina red clay feet and oh look that smear on his face too! Then I saw his erect head. Then I looked at Jackson's always looking for something to move low slung head. Nah, Jackson wouldn't make that pic.! I looked at the pic, then at Jackson, then Jackson looked, and we both had a good laugh. :rolleyes:

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Guest HerdnDogs
Originally posted by PennyT:

I occasionally read a Yahoo list called BC-L Continues that Arnpriors posts on. Here is a quote from her after taking two of her dogs to sheep once this January.

 

"This morning, on the way home from Cathy's, we stopped by at Keith's, to see what Token and Neo would be like on the sheep.

 

Token, only two generations away from ISDS, was too interested in me to take any notice of the sheep, whereas Neo, with at least eight generations of show breeding, in Australia behind him, was keen, very strong, but very willing to obey Keith, without being put off at all.

 

Goes to show, that not only is it impossible to breed the instinct out of them, but you don't need ISDS dogs only, to work sheep."

Penny as the owner of Border Collies Continues, I do not appreciate reading crossposted mail used to ridicule group members off my group, If you read the mails you will see it stated that Messages may not be forwarded without prior permission from the author and Group Owner.

 

 

Incidentally, Keith was impressed with the strange coloured "Show" dog for its first time on sheep. Also a note on "Tail Flagging" its not unusual to see a border collie flag its tail with excitement the first time it is put to sheep, this usually settles down and in the case of Neo, did do after a very short time, I took the photograph and saw how Neo settled and started to ballance with the handler, so judging a dog on one badly taken snap shot does not call for rude comments from the likes of Mike Goracke.

 

Cathy

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I did not ridicule the post. I let it speak for itself, which I think is fairer that paraphrasing. I could have ridiculed the post but it would have been shooting fish in a barrel.

 

Quotations under several hundred words (I forget the exact number) used for educational purposes are legal and require no permission.

 

In terms of dog talent on stock, I do not make ironclad judgements about whether a dog is hot stuff (to paraphrase politely a different post from Arnpriors on that list) on the basis of one exposure to sheep, and I also do not make ironclad judgements about whether a dog will ever turn on to stock on the basis of one exposure.

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>

 

If "Keith" is the same Keith who is on the workingsheepdogs list, he has long struck me as one of the most polite people on the face of the earth.

 

>

 

Except that people usually choose pictures of their dog looking his best for inclusion on their website. If an owner's kennel website showed their dog falling off a piece of agility equipment or doing an extremely crooked front, wouldn't you draw the conclusion that the dog wasn't much good at agility or obedience, because if he were, why would the owner choose to display a picture of him looking bad?

 

And "the likes of Mike Goracke" is a pretty rude comment in itself, isn't it?

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Guest HerdnDogs

I dont give a damn about the exact number of words can be used for educational purposes, this was used as a snipe at Maggie, yes her name is maggie not Arnpriors all mails on BCC and other forums are copyright of the original author with all rights reserved.

 

As you are a member of BCC and as yet to make a contribution why did you not make your assumptions over there at the time the post was sent?

 

Cathy

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Guest HerdnDogs
Originally posted by Eileen Stein:

[QB]

If "Keith" is the same Keith who is on the workingsheepdogs list, he has long struck me as one of the most polite people on the face of the earth.

 

Yes Eileen, That's the very man, and a very good friend of mine, yes he is polite but is also honest and would not give someone the impression that they had a good dog so as not to "upset them"

 

As Keith is not on this forum I think this should stop here, I'm sure he wont appreciate being talked about without his permission.

 

Cathy

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As Keith is not on this forum I think this should stop here, I'm sure he wont appreciate being talked about without his permission.
Cathy - If you can jump to conclusions when someone makes a very nice comment about a person you know (and previously referred to by name yourself in a post on this list), no wonder you can't handle a discussion if you are not in charge. Nobody here questioned his integrity or ability - Eileen just made a very kind comment based on her impression of him.

 

Penny T's cross-post was very illuminating as to how Maggie seems to truly feel about the relative merits of working-bred and Barbie-bred Border Collies. If you put something into a public forum, you can expect it to be public. And, if posting a "short quote" is legal, it's legal, and whether or not you "give a da**" has nothing to do with it.

 

Or would you just prefer to muzzle everyone who is not in agreement with you or something posted on your list?

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Guest HerdnDogs

Sue R Quotes: Cathy - If you can jump to conclusions when someone makes a very nice comment about a person you know (and previously referred to by name yourself in a post on this list), no wonder you can't handle a discussion if you are not in charge. Nobody here questioned his integrity or ability - Eileen just made a very kind comment based on her impression of him.>

 

juliepoudrier

Hmmm...a rare person indeed who would object to kind words being said about him "behind his back."

 

Just goes to show how narrow minded folk can be, I saw straight away what was written between the lines of Eileens comment

 

Should I spell it out for you? In other words he is too polite to say what he really thinks.

 

I came here to make comment about crossposted mail being used to ridicule a member, reading through the rest of the thread you are all just the usual vultures who are ready to swoop for the kill if someone doesnt fit in to your liking, quite pathetic really.

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reading through the rest of the thread you are all just the usual vultures who are ready to swoop for the kill if someone doesnt fit in to your liking, quite pathetic really.
No, we are people interested in protecting the breed for its original and still much needed purpose. That people who need to believe differently in order to justify that what they're doing isn't destructive to the breed don't agree with our views is not surprising.
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"Should I spell it out for you? In other words he is too polite to say what he really thinks."

*******************************

 

I know I shouldn't go here, but I know Keith a little bit and didn't read that into the earlier comment at all. In-fact, I agree wholeheartedly.

 

Take it at face value, I don't think there was an underlying meaning.

 

Glenn Firchow

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Guest HerdnDogs

I know I shouldn't go here, but I know Keith a little bit and didn't read that into the earlier comment at all. In-fact, I agree wholeheartedly.

 

Take it at face value, I don't think there was an underlying meaning.

 

Glenn Firchow [/QB]

 

Im not saying Keith isnt a nice guy I know him more than most and would agree wholheartedly with Eileens comment but I also picked up what she really meant. or is it a little like the popcorn and ice cream comment, yet again taken the wrong way :confused:

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Thanks, Katelynn. I appreciate your kind words and encouragement.

 

I get the Boards' stance that Border Collies should only be bred for working ability. I have (and always have had) zero interest in breeding. Not only am I not a big fan of tiny puppies, I figure there are way too many health and temperament problems in dogs for an "amateur" to enter into the mix.

 

I also understand that different strains of dogs that emerging with different approaches to breeding. I know that Barbie Collie is short hand and some people find it funny but is it that much harder to write conformation or show dog?

 

If my sports bred Quinn is still welcome on these boards, then I don't understand why it's ok to say he isn't really a Border Collie any more than a toy breed is. Does that mean that the carefully chosen working bred dog that doesn't have good herding ability isn't a Border Collie either? Or is he an honorary Border Collie because of his good breeding while Quinn is not because of his bad or wrong breeding? Does that mean a fear aggressive, not especially talented at herding, working bred dog is a truer representative of the breed than my friendly but still intense sports bred dog? Well, that would be one way to discourage people from a real Border Collie, I suppose :confused:

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This board is not about nasty as a general rule and Eileen certainly isn't. We're pretty much all about popcorn and Cave Trolls here - not any worse than what we say right up front.

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Just goes to show how narrow minded folk can be, I saw straight away what was written between the lines of Eileens comment
Amazing! So people that take someone's comments at face value, and don't read anything into them, are narrow-minded? Hmmm...

 

...you are all just the usual vultures who are ready to swoop for the kill if someone doesnt fit in to your liking, quite pathetic really.
Sounds like you don't really do well with people who don't agree with you. And that makes them pathetic. Hmmm...

 

I have much better things to do than worry about your contributions to this thread. Anybody got a brick wall?

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>

 

Cathy, robust disagreement is welcome on these Boards, but flaming is not. Flaming is personal insult. The above quote is a good illustration. Nobody flamed Maggie. People disagreed with her, and with her breeding goals, and said so forcefully. That is legitimate debate. Penny's post, which you object to, merely quoted Maggie's own words. Any conclusions which people drew from reading Maggie's words were just that -- conclusions they drew from Maggie's words.

 

If you put up any further posts containing personal insults directed toward members of these Boards, they will be removed and so will you.

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If my sports bred Quinn is still welcome on these boards, then I don't understand why it's ok to say he isn't really a Border Collie any more than a toy breed is. Does that mean that the carefully chosen working bred dog that doesn't have good herding ability isn't a Border Collie either? Or is he an honorary Border Collie because of his good breeding while Quinn is not because of his bad or wrong breeding? Does that mean a fear aggressive, not especially talented at herding, working bred dog is a truer representative of the breed than my friendly but still intense sports bred dog?
Liz - I know many people here are grateful that your Quinn will be alright. Your originial post on this thread has gotten overlooked by most (good job, Katelynn) in the passion of the discussion.

 

You've raised some really thoughtful questions in your last post. Sometimes we aren't very thoughtful of members like yourself who love their dogs as much as anyone does, when we use some common references.

 

It can be hurtful but I don't believe it's meant to be derogatory to any members of the boards and their beloved dogs, but rather to the "kennel club mentality" that breeds these dogs for superficial traits, and then passes them off to the public as the pinnacle of the Border Collie breed. It's sort of like breeding Thoroughbreds for something other than speed, and calling them racehorses.

 

I think that to say Quinn is no more a Border Collie than a toy dog is a bit severe. Quinn is descended from working Border Collies even though the breeding goals in some recent generations may have been away from the work.

 

You can breed the best of working Border Collies in the most careful pairing, and have no guarantee that all (or any) of the offspring will be good working dogs. However, breeding properly will increase the probability that good working dogs will be produced, and maybe even dogs that exceed the abilities of one or both parents.

 

A dog that is bred "right" but doesn't have the ability, is simply a poor representative of the working Border Collie.

 

Is a poorly bred or simply "poor quality" (but still "working bred" dog with temperment, etc., issues) a better "Border Collie" than Quinn? Is a Border Collie that works well but has real temperment issues a better "Border Collie" than Quinn. Well, he may be a better stockdog but...he's sure not a better dog. And he's not what I'd want on my farm to help me with my cattle, or the dog I'd prefer to have by my side as a companion. Responsible breeders breed for good temperment and soundness, along with stockworking abilities.

 

I doubt that I have contributed any positive to your questions, and I hope someone can do a better job than I have managed.

 

Again, glad to hear that Quinn is doing well, and best wishes to both of you in your partnership.

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