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Miztiki
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There was no battle until people that you informed yourself came to the Boards and went wild with rudeness.

 

If you want to learn more about our values (herding ability and soundness) and belifes that are the same values and belifes of the original founding breeders of this breed, stay and read on. No one is stopping you of that.

 

Katelynn

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And where does that come from?

 

I informed no one, nor did I ask anyone to interfere. As I said earlier, I am not responsible for other peoples actions, nor do I need, or wish to be.

 

Neither are they the only people who were rude. The blame can be spread very thinly on that front.

 

As far as I'm concerned, there are people on this Board who work their dogs on stock day in and day out, and who have a wealth of knowledge outside of trials.

 

That's what I'm interested in. Not whether people like each other, or want to compete in petty squabbles, which demean both them and their experience.

 

I have the opportunity to work my dogs, so this would be the ideal place for me to learn from people who have been doing just that for years.

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I do have to say that Maggie is not the only person here who belongs to Border Collies Continues, or the Working Stockdog Forum, or sheepdog-L, or any other of a number of lists or boards that have to do with Border Collies.

 

I don't think that she would have to say "Hey, do you know what they're saying over there?" in order for someone to chime in on a conversation. There are plenty of people who lurk here for the interesting topics, things to be learned and just general friendliness (me included).

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So here is Maggie.......asking to be given a chance to learn about working border collies.

She says that she wants to train them to herd sheep. should be the " magic" words on this board, but what happens? Not here long and someone is already jumping on her. Doesn't this board want to be an educational tool for border collie owners everywhere?

So.........I'm asking.............

Is this bulletin board going to give her a chance to ask questions and learn more about herding?

donna

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Donna,

I think I would recommend not assuming that one person's words/actions are indicative of the behavior of the entire membership of this forum.

 

For Maggie and anyone else who might be lurking now but who also wants to learn more about border collies and stockwork, ask your questions. If you've spent any time reading these boards you will know that questions are usually (but not always) answered with insight, kindness, and humor. If you have specific training, stockwork, or livestock questions, you might get the best results if you post in the training or livestock management sections (if you're looking for more specific answers). As you may have figured out by now, the politics & culture section can be a bit more, um, passionate, but there's no need to subject yourselves to those topics that are unrelated to learning about working (stockwork) dogs. And please remember that we *are* a culture that revolves around the stockwork (that is, breeding for stockwork, but not opposed to other uses, as long as the breeding remains for the stockwork), and so our comments and discussion will be colored by that culture....

 

Welcome to anyone who truly wants to learn about the work and what makes us so passionate about our dogs. I hope you find the answers you're looking for, but you can't get those answers if you don't ask the questions! :rolleyes:

 

P.S. Maybe it's time for Eileen to lock *this* thread so we don't start an endless round of accusations and can move on to more interesting discussions.

 

J.

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Originally posted by Arnpriors:

 

As far as I'm concerned, there are people on this Board who work their dogs on stock day in and day out, and who have a wealth of knowledge outside of trials.

 

I have the opportunity to work my dogs, so this would be the ideal place for me to learn from people who have been doing just that for years. [/QB]

i am one of those people-- And I LOVE helping people get started--

But alot of those that I helped get started in the past just used the skills they developed to undermine the breed even more effectively.

 

They can now herd-- they have decent dogs-- but they lack the appreciation for the history of the breed and the original breeders goals.

 

Ampriors-- are you interested in seeing and trying to understand the whole package?

 

Are you really open to having to rethink some very touchy issues?

 

Again-- you could have come here in total aninomity(sp). But your web page outed you. You can't go back .neither can we.

But you can tell us if you are open now? and we can try again.

We have experience --but we want to teach the WHOLE package. Not just what you want when you first come here.

 

Or..... you can change your user name and restart from fresh(Honestly)-- you don't stir pots nobody will bother checking you out as a troll. And you know now the pots not to stir without raising some attention. Just a suggestion -- don't put in your web page link

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Thank you

 

I'm not sure I know what questions I need to ask. When you've been working dogs with sheep for so long, what you know automatically, is a whole new language for someone like me, who isn't even a Novice.

 

I don't even know what standard you need a dog to be at, for it to begin to work with sheep. I assume it would need to drop when told, and be biddable enough to listen, but from there, I'm out on a limb.

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Originally posted by Arnpriors:

I don't even know what standard you need a dog to be at, for it to begin to work with sheep. I assume it would need to drop when told, and be biddable enough to listen, but from there, I'm out on a limb.

Having started with zero exposure to livestock I know your dilema. First and formost I recommend finding a trainer/mentor to help you. As far as your dog, it needs manors off stock; but you'll likely find that much of its obedience off stock will go out the window on stock.

 

Mark

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Seems fair enough to me Maggie. :rolleyes: Welcome back, by the way.

 

I like this site:

 

Little Hats

 

You definately want a mentor(s) and a trainer/instructor, which may be one in the same. Prepare to be simultaneously humbled and invigorated.

 

The first dog I took to see if it would herd was a mix and a flop. But I learned that I was desperately eager to learn, and wanted a dog that WOULD work. Its addicting. I'm still a noob, and wondering when its all gonna slow down some!

 

It of course would be nice to have a lie down on your dog when starting out... just be prepared for it to fly right out the window.

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The dog/pup will forget everything it knows when it turns on. The first few times, you really want the dog just to get a feel for it's sheep.

 

We are suppose to be starting my puppy this weekend and if we do, I will post a video for everyone to see! It might give you some ideas! :rolleyes:

 

When you start, you will have a million questions. Post them in training when you do, everyone will be more then happy to answer your questions.

 

You'll learn more by going and watching trials and people work their dogs or start a dog.

 

Katelynn

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Welcome back.

 

I suggested a video at the beginning of this thread. I've watched two videos, watched a few people from here work their dogs on sheep and cattle, and brought my mutt to be assessed on sheep. (He failed miserably.) That's the extent of my working stock dog knowledge, but what I just mentioned has really opened my eyes and wowed me and helped me understand alot of things. Very general things mind you, but things nonetheless.

 

I don't even know what standard you need a dog to be at, for it to begin to work with sheep. I assume it would need to drop when told, and be biddable enough to listen, but from there, I'm out on a limb.
It at least gave me an idea of the answer to your question here so it's a start!
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Maggie,

You might want to get Derek Scrimgeour's "The Shepherd's Pup" and "A Hill Shepherd Trains His Border Collies." I get stuff like that from Border Collies in Action here in the U.S. but you might be able to find a source closer to home. Any videos you can watch of the International Supreme or World Trials will probably give you a good idea of what you're aiming for. And I think Miztiki is talking about "The Year of the Working Sheep Dog," which is indeed an amazingly beautiful video and will give you good insight into the type of work these dogs were originally developed for.

 

CollieWobbles (in the UK) has all sorts of products--check them out for the videos/DVDs mentioned:

 

http://www.colliewobbles.co.uk/

 

J.

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Hey guys, destructo is a young woman, not a man. I've been reading her posts on the BCC-L and from what I can tell she means no harm. She reminds me of myself when I was new to herding and just beggining to learn about how to breed working BCs. I feel that her questions were perfectly innocent and were not meant to stir us up. From what I can tell she asked them because she genuinly wanted the answers to them. Sometimes when you are new to herding and have a sport/show background you have no idea what you are getting into. I got jumped on when I was first starting out and I only survived my initiation because I am so stubborn.

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Originally posted by Liz P:

Hey guys, destructo is a young woman, not a man. I've been reading her posts on the BCC-L and from what I can tell she means no harm.

Her questions may or may not have been innocent, but she certainly posted a lot of offensive statements. She also wasn't very honest if she presented herself as a buff man from Yale (Princeton? Harvard?). And posting over 80 messages, some of them rather grandiose, in the space of a day seems a bit out of the ordinary. Something's not right there.
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Hey, Liz P., why don't you scroll up the page a little bit and read Destructo's posts again, especially the one where HE or SHE says

 

"Is it just me or does this whole debate seem kind of women dominated. It's like the farmw wives vs. the city wives arguing over whose daughter is prettier, the pumpkin queen or the debutante.

 

As a man, I think the whole issue is pretty easily settled by competition. Wether a dog herds sheep with great skill or runs an agility course with great skill, it seems to me the guys can duke it out there."

 

Sound like an innocent young woman asking genuine sincere questions?

 

Just because somebody can't herd sheep doesn't mean that HE or SHE doesn't know how to pull the wool over your eyes.

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OK, I found a cluster of them buried in the middle of this topic. Your right, they were quite rude. :rolleyes:

 

Funny that Chow Chows were chosen as an example as they also have a breed split. There were the Chow Chows raised for food who lived in pens. Only the toughest dogs able to fight for their food survived. Then there were the pet Chow Chows known for their loyalty and intelligence. Ironically enough it was the food Chows that were most often exported to the USA as foundation dogs, hence the reputation for them being biters. If you know where to look you can find bloodlines founded by the pet Chow type.

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