Jump to content
BC Boards

Split from the Gallery thread


Miztiki
 Share

Recommended Posts

A while back Jodi posted about going on a AKC board and being frustrated about their attitude etc. Always curious, I went to the board she mentioned and joined. Because I had to wait for them to approve me, and it was late, I never went to the board to post. The next day I recieved a few e-mails that were like posted msgs. I thought that kinda weird. Even weirder was the fact that they were complaining about Jodi. The only e-mails I have recieved since then (about 20) have only had to do with either breeding or the use of the term "Barbie Collie". The latest e-mail I recieved was from a woman who said she thought about the term and then in researching the Barbie doll discovered that Barbie through the years has had a variety of vocations and abilities. So, in conclusion she no longer felt insulted by having her dog refered to as a Barbie Collie but it was a compliment because that is what they are, a versitle dog that can do anything.

 

Now the problem I saw immediately is that, Barbie Doll is a toy made possible by the imagination of toy makers. She can be a champ down hill skier because she came in a package with skis. She was a world reknown doc cuz she came with a stethescope. So I guess in all this the conclusion is:

If it is B/W, has 4 legs, 1 tail, 1 head, long hair, and SOMEWHERE in its lineage it was from herding background, well, it is a border collie.

 

If it can't herd sheep, well, it didn't come packaged that way. It came in the AKC conformation package. But, it is still a border collie.

 

I mean, what is wrong with us people that we are soooo rigid in wanting dogs that have the INSTINCT to herd that we don't care what they look like? I mean, come on. The border collie is so smart and versatile. It doesn't matter which dogs are bred.

 

Just the package they come in.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 242
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Ok ... here's the latest.

 

I got a private e-mail from "George." It basically said that he is not Cathy and mentioned how much he strongly objects to my lies on the board, etc., and shows how it proves what little I know about ISP addresses.

 

Here's the funny part.

 

It wasn't from George's e-mail address provided earlier in this thread.

 

It was from tribluemerle@aol.com.

 

For those of you who don't know her, that's Lesley (friend of Cathy's and Maggie's, and is also a member of the BCC list), who can be found at Merle Border Collie Yahoo Group. Lesley kicked me and several people off that list quite some time ago for expressing our views on breeding non-working dogs. Imagine that.

 

Lesley, next time you have "George" e-mail me, at least remember to log out of your own e-mail and go into his. Oh, and change your IP address because it doesn't match the one Cathy and George are using.

 

Cathy, please let it be known that no private e-mails from you or your cronies will be responded to. Like I said earlier, "Get a life."

 

Lesley, I cannot believe you are stooping to this level. Nevermind. Yes, I can.

 

And Maggie, thanks for watching my back like I watched yours when this thread first started. Good, quality friends you have there.

 

Jodi

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Isn't anyone allowed to join the list and participate, unless they flame? Even though Cathy/George/etc. may have been baiting the list, I was learning a lot of new information about foundation dogs (I'm woefully ignorant about this). I'd suggest we simply ignore posts that are outlandish or rude or bring up subjects that have been discussed ad nauseam (and let Eileen handle them) and answer ones that are within the guidelines for the list, understanding that others who may not have asked the question may get something from the answer. The best way to get trouble makers to leave is to simply not allow them to cause a stir . . .

 

Edit: I think that contacting Jodi was childish and have sympathy for her -- my suggestions are more general than r/t her specific case.

 

Kim

Link to comment
Share on other sites

>

 

No, you're not allowed to join pretending to be two or more different people. No good can come of tolerating that level of dishonesty -- it's destructive to our community and to good faith discussion. This has happened before, and the person who does it is unsubscribed. Cathy is being unsubscribed as she joins under new identities.

 

I expect this will go on until it ceases to amuse her, or she finds something else to occupy her time. In the meantime I will delete her personas and posts as promptly as possible. I don't think there's any purpose in responding to her. It's evident to everyone what's going on.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No, you're not allowed to join pretending to be two or more different people. No good can come of tolerating that level of dishonesty -- it's destructive to our community and to good faith discussion.
That makes total sense. Kim
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is going to be my last post on this thread.

 

I am ashamed of myself. I'm ashamed that I got sucked into this little game that the three musketeers play. I "know" all of them and have gotten into it with all three of them before. They look to rile up the people with "working dogs" ... I've seen it happen over and over. And I got sucked into it. I know better.

 

KillerH - No apologies necessary. It was not your fault.

 

The worst part for me is the betrayal I felt by Maggie. I stood up for her when she came on this board. It's too bad that she ... even now ... has yet to return the favor on either this board or the BCC. She wrote me an apology privately, but did she call her cronies off? Nope. I got a private e-mail from Cathy a little while ago spewing her stupidity yet again. Fool me once, Maggie, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

 

I just got done shedding my wethers off my ewes with a big, angry ram protecting the whole flock, and am just glad I didn't have one of their dogs at my side. It never would have gotten done, if their dogs lived to tell the tale.

 

Maggie, Cathy, Leslie ... K.M.L.W.F.A.

 

Jodi

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Shetlander, no, that was not aimed at you. It was in response to a (now deleted) post that said that it didn't matter how often we say that the term "Barbie" is not meant as an insult, THEY (the poster in question) KNOW we mean it as an insult. That is tantamount to calling all of us who have said otherwise, liars. In adition it presumes to know what our thoughts and motivations are, perhaps better than we ourselves do. This is clearly not possible (hence my remark that it is irrational to believe it is), yet it is a concept and a behavior weirdly prevalent in the world, and certainly contained within the assertions that 'I know an insult when I feel one' - in direct opposition to the stated intent of the other posters. Again, lest you misunderstand, let me point out that it was the "poster in question" (PQ?) about whom I am making these observations, not you.

 

If you re-read the post, I hope you will see the part where I said "I'm sure this is just a wrong impression, but it seems AS IF you want to be insulted by this" and "I could decide that you LIKE being insulted, but that would be presumptuous of me, since I can't know what's in your head" and words to that effect. A) This is not aimed at you. :rolleyes: I state in so many words I'm sure this is NOT the truth, just a wrong impression; though that is the impression given, I can't presume to know what is in another's mind or what another's motives are. The same courtesy should be extended to those who have explicitly stated that this is a descriptor, not an insult.

 

As a further point of logic, I will point out that my post did not and was not intended to address the appropriateness or lack thereof of the "Barbie" term. It was intended to point out that such a term can easily be used as a description without prejudice and even with affection and delight in what makes one dog "Borderline" and another dog "Barbie" - or what have you.

 

I hope that is now clear. Apart from that, I echo what Eileen had to say on the matter.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hello, Thanks for taking an interest in our group.

Could you please forward a small introduction about

yourself and any Border Collies you have,

including your name so you can give you a

formal introduction to the group.

Your intro will be forwarded to the group.

If no introduction is received within two

weeks membership will be rejected.

This is to stop spammers from joining the

list and is in no way personal.

Many Thanks.

Cathy Saxon, Owner

 

Followed 4 hours later by:

 

Border Collies Continues is experiencing technical difficulties

and is not accepting new applications at the present time.

 

Are we the "technical dificulties" :rolleyes:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest destructo
Originally posted by HerdnDogs:

I dont give a damn about the exact number of words can be used for educational purposes, this was used as a snipe at Maggie, yes her name is maggie not Arnpriors all mails on BCC and other forums are copyright of the original author with all rights reserved.

 

As you are a member of BCC and as yet to make a contribution why did you not make your assumptions over there at the time the post was sent?

 

Cathy

Why don't you sue me for using your words in my post. Good luck buddy, especially trying from the UK to a server that lives ??? and me who lives in the USA. Have fun proving damages.

 

Although, bitching about "laws" that you can't do anything about... that seems like a familiar topic round these parts. :cP

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest destructo

I'm curious, can we call Chow Chow's "real" chow chows, since the original purpose of the dogs was for food. And since they were bred to be tasty dogs. I think we need a new name for the non-food Chows. Perhaps "Barbie Chow" ... since they can't really be Chows since we don't breed them based on tenderness and taste any more. Perhaps we Chow breeders should start eating some of our dogs, or at least taste them, so that we can maintain street cred with the purists.

 

:cP

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest destructo

Is it just me or does this whole debate seem kind of women dominated. It's like the farmw wives vs. the city wives arguing over whose daughter is prettier, the pumpkin queen or the debutante.

 

As a man, I think the whole issue is pretty easily settled by competition. Wether a dog herds sheep with great skill or runs an agility course with great skill, it seems to me the guys can duke it out there.

 

I wonder how many of you people bought sheep for your Border Collies instead of buying Border Collies for your sheep.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest destructo

And for that herding vs. sport question.... why are you herding only people on a board about border collies at all? Shouldn't you be on a board about cows and sheep? If the border collie is only a tool for your work, why do you care at all about the politics and the registries? Why do you even have herding trials at all? Have any of you used the trials as a bench mark to buy dogs for your farm... to work?

 

Seems to me that most of you are 4H types that use herding with BCs for your own self gratification and enjoyment.... and just because you can't get more creative with using the dogs for something other than their historical purpose, you seem to be insecure and need to bash agility and city sport which takes as much skill and training as herding.... in fact, it's probably more impressive than herding, since people can relate to training a dog to do all of these tricks and how amazing that is. Watching a dog do a nice outrun doesn't quite pique the curiosity of the lay person nearly as much.

 

Written language was originally developed for accounting. Does that mean poetry is somehow a lesser use of words because it's not as rustic and old as accounting? How about all the numerous weapons that have produced domestic technology that is crucial to life. What about the space program? Would you say that velcro or plastic is somehow less because most of us don't use it in space?

 

The greatest utility of a Border Collie no longer comes out of it's use as a herding animal, since the herding industry itself has changed and things like the great cattle drives are a thing of the past.

 

At one point, people used the internet for research and inter school edcuational purposes. Are you to say that we should re-name routers because we use the internet for commercial and publishing now?

 

You can cling to your historical romantic visions of Border Collies and sheep, but that isn't the future of the breed, and to think that it is will just result in the death of the breed along with the death of your industry.

 

The raison d'etre for the Border Collie is no longer sheep. That's a fact that you will have to get over. You aren't going to change that. If anything, you should rename your dogs to something else, since the specific term should be used to specify variation from the norm... and the norm is now the pet dog, not the working dog.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Destrructo,

 

Have you enjoyed yourself so far? You've done a great job of hitting all the hot buttons in your attempt to stir the pot. I'm sure you already know the attitude of most of the members about what a Border Collie is and how it should be bred. But just in case you some how missed it; here is the purpose of the USBCC the host and owner of this forum.

 

The United States Border Collie Club, Inc. (USBCC) is dedicated to preserving the Border Collie as a working stock dog, opposing the showing, judging, and breeding of Border Collies based upon their appearance, promoting the breeding only of sound and healthy animals free of genetic defects, and encouraging Border Collie owners to work with their dogs in the many canine sports at which Border Collies excel.
Mark
Link to comment
Share on other sites

And for that herding vs. sport question.... why are you herding only people on a board about border collies at all? Shouldn't you be on a board about cows and sheep
Which brings the question to mind, if this board is so offensive to you, what are you doing on it, besides taking pot shots. There are plenty of sport collie boards that would be much more to your liking.

 

BTW, really, I mean *really* slick not to sign your name.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For one thing, destructo, I do not recall anyone putting anyone else down for using their dog for flyball, agility, frisbee, or couch warmer. The only thing is the breeding of them. Because the things it takes to produce good pups that CAN be used for all these things are from breeding great herding dogs.

 

And as for the Chow question, the problem is that ALL the dogs in AKC are so ruined it is needless to rename them. Few, if anyone, uses any of these dogs for their "intended" purpose. However, it sounds like you raise chows, if so and you wish to take a bite out of one, go for it. He'll probly bite your head off,,,,,,literaly.

 

I just wish I could understand why it is so hard for people to understand that breeding and utilizing are two sepperate things.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally posted by mado:

Written language originates in the human urge to remember their dead ones and the history of their ancestors .

Yep, and if you do remember the history, you'll remember that statements like this:

It's weak to let things live that should die
have been made before.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Personally I think destructo has many valid points and a very creative way of presenting them.

Am I the only one who read his posts and could see , (through his eyes) how stupid most of these comments are?

There was more " learning value" in his posts than 90 % of what I've read on these boards that were " supposed " to be all about educating in one venue or another.

 

I feel that he is a breath of fresh air, who tells it like he sees it. If he makes us take a good, close, honest look at ourselves and our behavior on this board..........then......hurray for him!

donna

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There was more " learning value" in his posts than 90 % of what I've read on these boards that were " supposed " to be all about educating in one venue or another.

>>>> Donna

 

I guess if "learning value" is a lesson in how to destroy a breed, I'd agree.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Donna -

 

I, too, thought destructo might have had some valid points ... until I asked him if he ever worked livestock with this dogs. In a deleted post, his answer amounted to "no." Now knowing that, his e-mails have a different feel.

 

"If the border collie is only a tool for your work, why do you care at all about the politics and the registries?"

 

You can't explain this to someone who doesn't care to learn.

 

"Why do you even have herding trials at all?"

 

Yet, in another post, he explained how useless trial are. He knows everything.

 

"Have any of you used the trials as a bench mark to buy dogs for your farm... to work?"

 

It's obvious he hasn't been on this board very long.

 

"Seems to me that most of you are 4H types that use herding with BCs for your own self gratification and enjoyment"

 

Coming from someone who has never used his dog on stock in his life, this isn't even worth responding to.

 

"just because you can't get more creative with using the dogs for something other than their historical purpose..."

 

Anyone on these boards can tell you what a dirverse group of people we have, and all the different activities our dogs are involved in, but when it comes to breeding, yes, the work ("historical purpose") is the standard.

 

"you seem to be insecure and need to bash agility and city sport which takes as much skill and training as herding...."

 

How would he know if he's never even so much as introduced his dogs to stock? There's nothing valid about this claim.

 

"in fact, it's probably more impressive than herding, since people can relate to training a dog to do all of these tricks and how amazing that is."

 

And tell me ... where do these dogs get the drive and attention span to be taught these tricks? Can't tell destructo, though. He knows it all.

 

"Watching a dog do a nice outrun doesn't quite pique the curiosity of the lay person nearly as much."

 

If these dogs start getting bred according to what piques the curiosity of lay people like destructo, our breed is going to be destructo.

 

"The greatest utility of a Border Collie no longer comes out of it's use as a herding animal, since the herding industry itself has changed and things like the great cattle drives are a thing of the past. You can cling to your historical romantic visions of Border Collies and sheep, but that isn't the future of the breed, and to think that it is will just result in the death of the breed along with the death of your industry."

 

Again, this is coming from someone who has never worked a dog on livestock ... and certainly doesn't come off as someone looking to learn a thing or two. Sounds to me like someone who is justifying breeding his dogs without having to prove their "ancient" working ability.

 

"The raison d'etre for the Border Collie is no longer sheep. That's a fact that you will have to get over. You aren't going to change that...

the norm is now the pet dog, not the working dog."

 

And, hence, the very heart of the reason Barbie Collies exist. Nothing original about this.

 

Jodi

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wonder how the shepherds out here where I live (Los Angeles county btw) would handle their flocks of around 1000 each without their sheepdogs (Border Collies). They graze them in the open during part of the year and the shepherd and his dogs stay with the flocks moving them as needed to fresh grazing. Obviously the sheep industry is alive and doing well out here anyway. I'm not sure a trained agility or flyball dog would be able to handle the flock.

I think Destructo sounds like one of those wet behind the ears young men who think they know it all because they haven't learned much yet. I'm not talking book learning here. I knock my son around from time to time to try to knock the sense in him and he sounds way more mature than Destructo. I think the name says it all anyway.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

<>

 

Actually Jodi, I did return the favour, on BC/Continues, and I'm not one of the Three Muskateers either, I only post under my own name, and I don't plot and scheme, nor have I.

 

I'm not interested in discussing breeding colours, show dogs, Barbie dogs or anything whatsoever to do with the show world. There are plenty of other lists for that. I joined to learn more about herding, and that's what I'd like to do.

 

I can't and wont take responsibility for other peoples actions. The fact that I belong to the same list, as do other people on here, doesn't make me their keeper.

 

I'm not interested in arguments, or cross-posting, but if it's done to me, then expect me to retaliate.

 

You can believe me or not, that's your privaladge, but I would have thought Jodi knew me well enough to have given me the benefit of the doubt, and not to have jumped to the conclution that

 

a) I wouldn't watch her back,

:rolleyes: would ever use anything but my own ID, and

c) would ever ask anyone to fight my battles for me, even when there shouldn't even be any battle to fight.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...